It's getting hot in Venezuela: US backs opposition as "Venezuela President"

Jul 23, 2018
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Are you talking about military intervention? If so, no one has said that it is necessary. On the other hand, it's not hard to understand that those in the military (here) are afraid of openly defecting because they know they could be tortured or killed. The higher ups are loyal to the regime because they are directly financed by it and their lives depend on it. 90% might be an exaggeration but it's not that far fetched.

One still has to remember that Chavez made sure to keep the military well fed. They are a privileged class. But now that the money is running out that will change. Did you know that just recently the government made the official "price" of the dollar higher than the black market's price? Why? Because MANY people here sell dollars consigned by relatives living abroad in order to live. They do that in the black market. Up till now it was illegal to buy/sell foreign currency. Now it's magically legal. Quite simply the government wants that money and will print bolivars like mad.
Why did the Bolivar lose its value?

Make no mistake. The destruction of this country was planned and perpetrated by the regime. "Chavez lifted people out of poverty" :messenger_grinning_squinting::messenger_grinning_squinting::messenger_grinning_squinting: Again, you know nothing about my country's history nor its problems.
And what would be the motivation to plan the destruction of the country?
 
Mar 5, 2007
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If that is true, that 90% of the army doesn't support Maduro, why is US intervention necessary?
It's not, and I'm not in favor of it because it just hands excuses to the next shitty leftist dictator in Latin America as to why their policies fail.

That said, it is perfectly obvious that Maduro has to go at this point, So it's just a matter of tactics at this point.

Also the oil conspiracies at this point just seem like a complete denial of reality. First being that the US has absolutely no need of Venezuela's shitty dirty oil in a post fracking world, and second being that Venezuela has no other market for their oil than the US as the US is the only place capable of efficiently refining it. They have tried paying the Chinese to take it and for the most part the Chinese just immediately ship it across the gulf of Mexico and sell it to the Americans and pocket the difference. Now that that avenue is closed(presumably) it will be interesting to see if the Chinese are actually willing to ship it all the way across the pacific and invest in the technology needed to refine it or if they just cut their losses.
 
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Why did the Bolivar lose its value?

And what would be the motivation to plan the destruction of the country?
It's what happens when you print money faster than the economy grows to pay for bribes to your lackeys to increase your popularity.

As for the second bit, it's less about the motivation and more about the economic ignorance and shortsightedness of the people doing the planning. Chavismo has reduced Venezuela from being the wealthiest Latin American country to being a failed state in less than two decades though, seems hard to do much better than that even if you were motivated towards the destruction of the country.
 
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Also the oil conspiracies at this point just seem like a complete denial of reality. First being that the US has absolutely no need of Venezuela's shitty dirty oil in a post fracking world,
Really?

Below are the top 15 suppliers from which the US imported the highest dollar value worth of crude oil during 2017. Within parenthesis is the percentage change in value for each supplying country since 2013.

  1. Canada: US$53.3 billion (down -32.1% from 2013)
  2. Saudi Arabia: $18.2 billion (down -64.7%)
  3. Iraq: $11.1 billion (down -18.1%)
  4. Venezuela: $10.7 billion (down -61.8%)
  5. Mexico: $10 billion (down -69%)
  6. Colombia: $6.7 billion (down -53%)
  7. Nigeria: $6.5 billion (down -36.1%)
  8. Ecuador: $4.1 billion (down -54.7%)
  9. Brazil: $3.9 billion (down -9.6%)
  10. Kuwait: $2.8 billion (down -77.7%)
  11. Angola: $2.5 billion (down -70.1%)
  12. Algeria: $1.4 billion (up 1.8%)
  13. Libya: $1.3 billion (down -30.8%)
  14. Russia: $1 billion (down -46.9%)
  15. Norway: $923.3 million (up 60.9%)
http://www.worldstopexports.com/crude-oil-imports-by-country/

second being that Venezuela has no other market for their oil than the US as the US is the only place capable of efficiently refining it.
Really? Then how are they still exporting so much oil, competing with the US in exports??

Below are the 15 countries that exported the highest dollar value worth of crude oil during 2017:

  1. Saudi Arabia: US$133.6 billion (15.9% of total crude oil exports)
  2. Russia: $93.3 billion (11.1%)
  3. Iraq: $61.5 billion (7.3%)
  4. Canada: $54 billion (6.4%)
  5. United Arab Emirates: $49.3 billion (5.9%)
  6. Iran: $40.1 billion (4.8%)
  7. Kuwait: $38.2 billion (4.5%)
  8. Nigeria: $33 billion (3.9%)
  9. Angola: $30.5 billion (3.6%)
  10. Kazakhstan: $26.6 billion (3.2%)
  11. Norway: $25.9 billion (3.1%)
  12. Venezuela: $23.1 billion (2.7%)
  13. United States: $21.8 billion (2.6%)
  14. Mexico: $19.9 billion (2.4%)
  15. United Kingdom: $19 billion (2.3%)
http://www.worldstopexports.com/worlds-top-oil-exports-country/

But even if you discount the oil, there's still the gold.

They have tried paying the Chinese to take it and for the most part the Chinese just immediately ship it across the gulf of Mexico and sell it to the Americans and pocket the difference. Now that that avenue is closed(presumably) it will be interesting to see if the Chinese are actually willing to ship it all the way across the pacific and invest in the technology needed to refine it or if they just cut their losses.
I presume you don't know Venezuela pays their debt to the Chinese with barrels of oil?

It's what happens when you print money faster than the economy grows to pay for bribes to your lackeys to increase your popularity.
YReally? It had nothing to do with the US starting to export oil, dropping the oil price, cutting Venezuela's oil revenue by 75% or so..?

As for the second bit, it's less about the motivation and more about the economic ignorance and shortsightedness of the people doing the planning. Chavismo has reduced Venezuela from being the wealthiest Latin American country to being a failed state in less than two decades though, seems hard to do much better than that even if you were motivated towards the destruction of the country.
This tells quite another story;


So does this;


Both from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela
 
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Really?

Below are the top 15 suppliers from which the US imported the highest dollar value worth of crude oil during 2017. Within parenthesis is the percentage change in value for each supplying country since 2013.

  1. Canada: US$53.3 billion (down -32.1% from 2013)
  2. Saudi Arabia: $18.2 billion (down -64.7%)
  3. Iraq: $11.1 billion (down -18.1%)
  4. Venezuela: $10.7 billion (down -61.8%)
  5. Mexico: $10 billion (down -69%)
  6. Colombia: $6.7 billion (down -53%)
  7. Nigeria: $6.5 billion (down -36.1%)
  8. Ecuador: $4.1 billion (down -54.7%)
  9. Brazil: $3.9 billion (down -9.6%)
  10. Kuwait: $2.8 billion (down -77.7%)
  11. Angola: $2.5 billion (down -70.1%)
  12. Algeria: $1.4 billion (up 1.8%)
  13. Libya: $1.3 billion (down -30.8%)
  14. Russia: $1 billion (down -46.9%)
  15. Norway: $923.3 million (up 60.9%)
http://www.worldstopexports.com/crude-oil-imports-by-country/


Really? Then how are they still exporting so much oil, competing with the US in exports??

Below are the 15 countries that exported the highest dollar value worth of crude oil during 2017:

  1. Saudi Arabia: US$133.6 billion (15.9% of total crude oil exports)
  2. Russia: $93.3 billion (11.1%)
  3. Iraq: $61.5 billion (7.3%)
  4. Canada: $54 billion (6.4%)
  5. United Arab Emirates: $49.3 billion (5.9%)
  6. Iran: $40.1 billion (4.8%)
  7. Kuwait: $38.2 billion (4.5%)
  8. Nigeria: $33 billion (3.9%)
  9. Angola: $30.5 billion (3.6%)
  10. Kazakhstan: $26.6 billion (3.2%)
  11. Norway: $25.9 billion (3.1%)
  12. Venezuela: $23.1 billion (2.7%)
  13. United States: $21.8 billion (2.6%)
  14. Mexico: $19.9 billion (2.4%)
  15. United Kingdom: $19 billion (2.3%)
http://www.worldstopexports.com/worlds-top-oil-exports-country/

But even if you discount the oil, there's still the gold.


I presume you don't know Venezuela pays their debt to the Chinese with barrels of oil?


YReally? It had nothing to do with the US starting to export oil, dropping the oil price, cutting Venezuela's oil revenue by 75% or so..?


This tells quite another story;


So does this;


Both from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela
The fact that US companies can make a profit from refining Venezuelan oil, does not mean the US needs it or that it is even a significant policy concern.

$11 billion is nothing in context of the US economy.

The oil export numbers prove the point as well, For the nation with the number 1 reserves to be #12 in exports is clear evidence of dysfunction. Venezuela's primary market is the US, and the US is the only major market that actually pays in cash. As you mention China and Russia largely take subsidized oil shipments as debt payment.

Also, no the inflation has nothing to do with the US starting to export oil or the decline in oil prices. No other oil producer had hyper inflation problems after oil prices fell. And don't use GDP and inflation data using the bogus official exchange rates. The black market inflation rates were ~100% or higher as far back as 2006-2007 during the oil boom. The only thing the drop in oil prices did was make it impossible for the government to pretend that the official exchange rate reflected reality at all, because they ran out of dollars to subsidize even the small fraction of currency exchanges that they had been doing.

In fact decreases in oil prices should be a deflationary pressure, not inflationary according to every version of economics I've ever heard of, but that's not even the point.
 
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Because they didn't have sanctions put on them by the US.
Neither did Venezuela until last week, and even then, just the Maduro government technically.

Until last week all of the sanctions have been targeted at individuals who were embezzling the wealth of Venezuela, none of them affected the nation as a whole. Also they only happened after the inflation was already severe.
 
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Neither did Venezuela until last week, and even then, just the Maduro government technically.

Until last week all of the sanctions have been targeted at individuals who were embezzling the wealth of Venezuela, none of them affected the nation as a whole. Also they only happened after the inflation was already severe.
Reposting this chart... Because during Chavez the inflation was lower than in the 90s which is touted as some great time for Venezuela, and, inflation only drastically increased exactly at the same time that the US flooded the international market with oil.



Additionally, you say the sanctions were targeted and individuals and didn't affect the nation as a whole, but that's clearly not true....

On May 24, 2011, the State Department also sanctioned the Venezuelan oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela (PdVSA), pursuant to the Comprehensive Iran Sanctions, Accountability, and Disinvestment Act of 2010 (P.L. 111-195) for providing two shipments of reformate, an additive used in gasoline, to Iran, between December 2010 and March 2011. The shipments were valued at around $50 million. Under the sanctions, PdVSA is prohibited from competing for U.S. government procurement contracts, securing financing from the Export-Import Bank, and obtaining U.S. export licenses. The sanctions specifically exclude PdVSA subsidiaries (Citgo) and do not prohibit the export of oil to the United States
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R40938.pdf

That contradicts the claim that it was individuals only. That is not even counting the part where Venezuela's Gold has been hijacked by the bank of England. As for it not affecting the people... Gold was being used as a work-around to get food and medicine, which again has been restraint. I can tell you one thing. It affect the people more than it affects Maduro. That is the whole point, because they want the people to revolt against him.
 
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Reposting this chart... Because during Chavez the inflation was lower than in the 90s which is touted as some great time for Venezuela, and, inflation only drastically increased exactly at the same time that the US flooded the international market with oil.



Additionally, you say the sanctions were targeted and individuals and didn't affect the nation as a whole, but that's clearly not true....

On May 24, 2011, the State Department also sanctioned the Venezuelan oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela (PdVSA), pursuant to the Comprehensive Iran Sanctions, Accountability, and Disinvestment Act of 2010 (P.L. 111-195) for providing two shipments of reformate, an additive used in gasoline, to Iran, between December 2010 and March 2011. The shipments were valued at around $50 million. Under the sanctions, PdVSA is prohibited from competing for U.S. government procurement contracts, securing financing from the Export-Import Bank, and obtaining U.S. export licenses. The sanctions specifically exclude PdVSA subsidiaries (Citgo) and do not prohibit the export of oil to the United States
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R40938.pdf

That contradicts the claim that it was individuals only. That is not even counting the part where Venezuela's Gold has been hijacked by the bank of England. As for it not affecting the people... Gold was being used as a work-around to get food and medicine, which again has been restraint. I can tell you one thing. It affect the people more than it affects Maduro. That is the whole point, because they want the people to revolt against him.
Again those are official exchange rates that were subsidized by the Chavez Regime for his cronies. Black market inflation rates were substantially higher throughout that period. Even those official rates are not anything close to healthy levels of inflation, bouncing around 20-30%, which would be outrageous anywhere outside of Latin America, even if they weren't quite as bad as the black market rates of 50-150%.

Punishing PdVSA for violating the Iran sanctions is not the same thing as sanctioning Venezuela, and the only one of those things that they would have been likely to get prior to the sanctions were the export licenses, as the US government is loathe to buy foreign goods even when relations are strong, and no one in their right mind would lend money to PdVSA in 2011, which is well after Chavez started giving pieces of it to any loan shark who could give him cash, mostly Russia and China. And since Citgo was exempted from the sanction, it was effectively a paper measure anyway.

As for the gold, if Britain did repatriate the gold reserves to the Maduro regime, they would immediately go to pay their debts to the Russians and the Chinese, leaving the Venezuelan people even worse off in a post-Maduro world. Also most of Venezuela's gold has been repatriated(aside from the $550 million worth that the Brits are holding on to), and Maduro is in the process of selling it off to pay the debts(has been for the last 4 years). Even the full $20-30 billion or so of reserves that they had at their peak 4-5 years ago would not be enough to substantially improve the state of the Venezuelan economy. It probably wouldn't even be enough to arrest the fall in Venezuelan oil production if it were all reinvested in infrastructure, but it's probably the right order of magnitude that will be required. The $550 million that the BoE is holding is effectively nothing in the grand scheme of things.

If $550 million is enough for a country the size of Venezuela to revolt, then the government has already fucked up to such an extreme degree that it probably deserves it.
 
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Jul 23, 2018
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I'll simply be leaving this here and call it a day. The ones that are interested in a different perspective have access to it, and the rest can ignore it. It's not as if we're going to agree here anyway.

 
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I'll simply be leaving this here and call it a day. The ones that are interested in a different perspective have access to it, and the rest can ignore it. It's not as if we're going to agree here anyway.

Comparing the situation in Venezuela with USA and France, which are democracies. :messenger_grinning_squinting:
Why are you so invested in this narrative, when clearly the majority of venezuelans (>80%) want Maduro out?
 
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Comparing the situation in Venezuela with USA and France, which are democracies. :messenger_grinning_squinting:
Why are you so invested in this narrative, when clearly the majority of venezuelans (>80%) want Maduro out?
Why are YOU so invested in the mainstream narrative?

Tell me something. How is Maduro a dictator, and how is Venezuela not a democracy, when in the 2018 election, Maduro requested supervision by the United Nations, and the opposition refused?
 
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Why are YOU so invested in the mainstream narrative?

Tell me something. How is Maduro a dictator, and how is Venezuela not a democracy, when in the 2018 election, Maduro requested supervision by the United Nations, and the opposition refused?
Becuase the mainstream narrative isn't trying to make shit up to justify sone anti-american hysteria.

As if we forgot what Maduro did to the assembly, we forgot how awful the economy is, we forgot how Maduros police forces treated protestors. We aren't going to pretend Maduro is the fucking victim all of a sudden
 
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Becuase the mainstream narrative isn't trying to make shit up to justify sone anti-american hysteria.
Agreed. They are making shit up to take the oil of another sovereign nation, just like they did many times before.

As if we forgot what Maduro did to the assembly
You mean the assembly that refused to pass anything related to the left whether it was good or not, and where those same members refused to participate for the constituent assembly and then cry about being excluded? You know, just like with the election last year?

we forgot how awful the economy is
And we definitely don't look up what caused it.

we forgot how Maduros police forces treated protestors
And yet percentage wise in the US more people are killed by the police force without any protests, compared to Venezuela with protests...

We aren't going to pretend Maduro is the fucking victim all of a sudden
The people will be after the US takes their oil and trashes the country more than it is.
 
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And yet percentage wise in the US more people are killed by the police force without any protests, compared to Venezuela with protests...
Venezuelan police actually kills a ton of people, way more then the US police does.

The registry estimated that 1,739 homicides occurred in Caracas from January 2017 to November 2018. Of those homicides, 37 percent, or 651 cases, were connected to actions taken by government authorities. Researchers collected the data directly from the city morgues, and then testimonies from the victims’ relatives were compared to those given by witnesses and authorities.
https://www.insightcrime.org/news/analysis/venezuela-resisting-authority/

651 killings in a city 1% the size of the US, you need some funky math to come to that conclusion.
 
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Venezuelan police actually kills a ton of people, way more then the US police does.



https://www.insightcrime.org/news/analysis/venezuela-resisting-authority/

651 killings in a city 1% the size of the US, you need some funky math to come to that conclusion.
How does "government authorities" immediately mean Maduro's people? Isn't the opposition also part of "government authorities"?


It's also extremely noticeable that you only reply to what is convenient for you to reply to.
 
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How does "government authorities" immediately mean Maduro's people? Isn't the opposition also part of "government authorities"?


It's also extremely noticeable that you only reply to what is convenient for you to reply to.
No. Once again you show total ignorance of what's going on here and how this country works. You're shilling for a dictator and a a group of thugs who deserve the cruelest of tortures. It's pathetic.

FYI Every major political party in this country is left-leaning. There have been no right-leaning governments here since Marcos Perez Jimenez.

Your discourse is on the level of holocaust denial.
 
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No. Once again you show total ignorance of what's going on here and how this country works. You're shilling for a dictator and a a group of thugs who deserve the cruelest of tortures. It's pathetic.

FYI Every major political party in this country is left-leaning. There have been no right-leaning governments here since Marcos Perez Jimenez.

Your discourse is on the level of holocaust denial.
Have to say been enjoying your posts and perspective, and your patience dealing with the other poster.

Keep briniging the truth.
 
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No. Once again you show total ignorance of what's going on here and how this country works. You're shilling for a dictator and a a group of thugs who deserve the cruelest of tortures. It's pathetic.
Oh so the national assembly is not the legislative branch of the government then?

FYI Every major political party in this country is left-leaning. There have been no right-leaning governments here since Marcos Perez Jimenez.
Isn't Guaido currently supported by all the right leaning leaders of Latin America? Which left leaning leader is supporting him? What does that make Guaido? Definitely not left leaning then...

Your discourse is on the level of holocaust denial.
And yet you simply ignore a bunch of important points and try and shame me into silence. Let's start with the most important one, and I'm copying this from before...;

How is Maduro a dictator, and how is Venezuela not a democracy, when in the 2018 election, Maduro requested supervision by the United Nations, and the opposition refused?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un-idUSKCN1GO2J0

I'll be waiting.

Keep briniging the truth.
Yeah... The truth is whatever the US propaganda machine brings to the table I guess...
What about the censorship of twitter accounts that speak up in defense of Maduro?
What about the repeated lies that the sanctions don't target the people of Venezuela, pretending they don't affect them while they clearly do?
What about all the Venezuelans that clearly do not want foreign intervention?

Then there's these;




And most importantly...;


If you REALLY care for the truth, you are not afraid to look at the other side of the story. Only based on information from multiple sources you can really discern what is going on.
 
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Oh so the national assembly is not the legislative branch of the government then?


Isn't Guaido currently supported by all the right leaning leaders of Latin America? Which left leaning leader is supporting him? What does that make Guaido? Definitely not left leaning then...


And yet you simply ignore a bunch of important points and try and shame me into silence. Let's start with the most important one, and I'm copying this from before...;

How is Maduro a dictator, and how is Venezuela not a democracy, when in the 2018 election, Maduro requested supervision by the United Nations, and the opposition refused?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un-idUSKCN1GO2J0

I'll be waiting.


Yeah... The truth is whatever the US propaganda machine brings to the table I guess...
What about the censorship of twitter accounts that speak up in defense of Maduro?
What about the repeated lies that the sanctions don't target the people of Venezuela, pretending they don't affect them while they clearly do?
What about all the Venezuelans that clearly do not want foreign intervention?

Then there's these;




And most importantly...;


If you REALLY care for the truth, you are not afraid to look at the other side of the story. Only based on information from multiple sources you can really discern what is going on.
And I bet if Trump supported Maduro you would be posting this same BS about Gauido.

Hmmm the side that the EU, USA, Canada and all the other democracies are on, or the side Russia, China, the Palestinian Authority and other dictatorships are on let me think which one am I going to chose.

I will take @GaugeInvariant opinion on this subject over yours any day of the week.
 
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If I said that if Trump supported Maduro, you wouldn't use Venezuela as an example of how socialism sucks, would that be a fair thing to say?
nope, because I think communism sucks, but some socialism isn't horrible. BTW I am Canadian, we have free health care and education here and a strong social safety net.

But the other poster is clearly on an anti-USA, anti-Trump binge ignoring basically the entire western and free world supporting Gauido and the dictators and fascists countries supporting Maduro.
 
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And I bet if Trump supported Maduro you would be posting this same BS about Gauido.

Hmmm the side that the EU, USA, Canada and all the other democracies are on, or the side Russia, China, the Palestinian Authority and other dictatorships are on let me think which one am I going to chose.

I will take @GaugeInvariant opinion on this subject over yours any day of the week.
nope, because I think communism sucks, but some socialism isn't horrible. BTW I am Canadian, we have free health care and education here and a strong social safety net.

But the other poster is clearly on an anti-USA, anti-Trump binge ignoring basically the entire western and free world supporting Gauido and the dictators and fascists countries supporting Maduro.
And yet the United Nations told Guaido that they need approval of the Venezuelan government to receive international aid.... But the US controlled media won't tell you that.
http://vovworld.vn/en-US/news/un-recognizes-government-of-maduro-721246.vov
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/02/01/587387/UN-reject-Guaido-cooperate-Maduro
https://www.telesurenglish.net/news...Discourse-With-Maduro-Govt-20190201-0006.html


And I find it ironic that you use an argument of some sort of moral high horse... And yet, I just posted this (and there are MANY more examples);


I guess you claim to stand for truth but in reality are not interested in it. I will only say one thing. There's two types of information. There's facts, and then there's emotion. When you're emotional, you're unable to face the facts. And that is what is used to convince people of a convenient narrative. And that happens from all sides. And it's laughable that you consider the US a democracy by the way, but I digress.

I'm disappointed that after so many years of the same thing happening, people still keep falling for the same type of propaganda...
 
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Then there's these;




If you REALLY care for the truth, you are not afraid to look at the other side of the story. Only based on information from multiple sources you can really discern what is going on.
"news of the day" This newspaper bit is a clip from a telesur doumentary released from 2 years ago.

Abby Martin is a literal Maduro mouthpiece. This is the same woman who partially blamed bitcoin for the economy crashing years back as well(before Maduro created the petro coin, then she flipped her tune)
 
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And yet the United Nations told Guaido that they need approval of the Venezuelan government to receive international aid.... But the US controlled media won't tell you that.
http://vovworld.vn/en-US/news/un-recognizes-government-of-maduro-721246.vov
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/02/01/587387/UN-reject-Guaido-cooperate-Maduro
https://www.telesurenglish.net/news...Discourse-With-Maduro-Govt-20190201-0006.html


And I find it ironic that you use an argument of some sort of moral high horse... And yet, I just posted this (and there are MANY more examples);


I guess you claim to stand for truth but in reality are not interested in it. I will only say one thing. There's two types of information. There's facts, and then there's emotion. When you're emotional, you're unable to face the facts. And that is what is used to convince people of a convenient narrative. And that happens from all sides. And it's laughable that you consider the US a democracy by the way, but I digress.

I'm disappointed that after so many years of the same thing happening, people still keep falling for the same type of propaganda...
Wow PressTV as a source ? and you talk about Propaganda briniging in Irans propaganda station. And then saying US isn't a democracy, can you be anymore transparent.

Ya point to the UN that allowed De Zayas crap report to go through without anyone pushing back on it. How about the fact that the ICC was asked to open a case on Maduro and his government? The 505 extrajudicial killings, including 24 children? the 5000+ people detained?

But I am sure thats all just propaganda komrade right?

Anyways I am done debating this issue. You can keep throwing out its all an evil American conspiracy all you want no one is buying it.
 
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I know. And the propaganda was already on-going... As an example;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hildren-survive-economic-crisis-a7479756.html

And to this day, the US is still importing Venezuelan oil, and many countries are receiving avocados, plantains and other produce from Venezuela.
:messenger_tears_of_joy: That wasn't "western propaganda". Newsflash, your country is in deep shit.

I'm fucking amazed reading your posts. The amount of denial is just...wow. Chavista's are something else
 
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:messenger_tears_of_joy: That wasn't "western propaganda" you moron. Newsflash, your country is in deep shit.

I'm fucking amazed reading your posts. The amount of denial is just...wow. Chavista's are something else
I'm not a Venezuelan nor a Chavista. That's part of the propaganda. Anyone that disagrees with the main narrative is demonized and seen as the enemy and immediately dismissed.
 
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It's not about a "narrative", it's about you denying simple facts that would be clear as day if you were Venezuelan and had two neurons to rub together.
I'm the one denying simple facts... And yet you still can't answer a simple question based on facts. I'll ask again...

How is Maduro a dictator, and how is Venezuela not a democracy, when in the 2018 election, Maduro requested supervision by the United Nations, and the opposition refused?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un-idUSKCN1GO2J0
 
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I'm not a Venezuelan nor a Chavista. That's part of the propaganda. Anyone that disagrees with the main narrative is demonized and seen as the enemy and immediately dismissed.
You're regurgitating chavista talking point and citing Abby Martin and Telesur. Are you serious right now?
 
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Before I answer your question you will have to state your definition of democracy.
Well, beside the fact that it's a flawed method that doesn't really work, it's supposed to be a 'fair' system where the people vote for a representative that is supposed to do what they want.

Also, I know what it isn't. It isn't this;

You're regurgitating chavista talking point and citing Abby Martin and Telesur. Are you serious right now?
I'm the one "regurgitating"? What have you said that goes beyond what the mainstream media has said?
I even backed my arguments with information from Wikipedia.
What is wrong with Abby Martin? She criticized RT as an employee of RT. If anyone is trustworthy, it is her. At least way more than Fox & CNN and the likes.

The funny thing is, that pretty much every truly independent media source out there clearly sees this as a coup. And all those sources are labeled as Russian propaganda, Chavismo and whatnot. No counter arguments, no discourse, nothing. It's all attempted ridicule and contempt.
Here's another one;
 
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Well, beside the fact that it's a flawed method that doesn't really work, it's supposed to be a 'fair' system where the people vote for a representative that is supposed to do what they want.

Also, I know what it isn't. It isn't this;


I'm the one "regurgitating"? What have you said that goes beyond what the mainstream media has said?
I even backed my arguments with information from Wikipedia.
What is wrong with Abby Martin? She criticized RT as an employee of RT. If anyone is trustworthy, it is her. At least way more than Fox & CNN and the likes.

The funny thing is, that pretty much every truly independent media source out there clearly sees this as a coup. And all those sources are labeled as Russian propaganda, Chavismo and whatnot. No counter arguments, no discourse, nothing. It's all attempted ridicule and contempt.
Here's another one;
Ok so you don't know what democracy is. so this discussion is pointless. Keep on pushing your agenda.
 
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As someone who doesn't fetishize democracy(democracy without the rule of law and individual rights doesn't mean anything), none of that even matters.

The country has seen a 60%+ drop in GDP in 4 years, which is an unprecedented economic disaster. There are millions of refugees fleeing, which is threatening to destabilize it's neighbors.

Maduro simply has to go or Venezuela will soon cease to be a nation.

I still don't support US intervention but I do favor the steps so far taken(recognizing the AN as the legitimate government, sending humanitarian aid).
 
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I'm the one denying simple facts... And yet you still can't answer a simple question based on facts. I'll ask again...

How is Maduro a dictator, and how is Venezuela not a democracy, when in the 2018 election, Maduro requested supervision by the United Nations, and the opposition refused?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un-idUSKCN1GO2J0
Do you read the articles ?

Venezuela’s opposition alliance called on the United Nations on Monday not to send observers to the presidential election on May 20 to avoid legitimizing a poll it says is rigged in favor of Socialist President Nicolas Maduro.
The main opposition coalition is boycotting the election on the grounds that the elections council has historically favored the ruling Socialist Party, and because the best-known candidates have been jailed or barred from holding office.

“What we have asked the United Nations today is not to validate the electoral fraud in May,” said legislator Delsa Solorzano of the Broad Front coalition at a small demonstration outside a U.N. office in Caracas.

She added that any U.N. mission should “be only for human rights issues, not to validate a dictatorship.”
Despite a dysfunctional economy, widespread food and medicine shortages, and skyrocketing inflation on track to hit 13,000 percent this year, Maduro managed to secure close to 68 percent of the vote on Sunday.


He did it in part by banning two of the most popular opposition leaders, Leopoldo Lopez and Henrique Capriles, from running in the election — and by sort of implying that any Venezuelans who didn’t vote for him might lose their government food subsidies.
Maduro has a track record of interfering with the political process to maintain his grip on power.


During elections for state governors back in October, the National Electoral Council, which is dominated by openly pro-Maduro sympathizers, moved the location of hundreds of heavily pro-opposition polling stations just hours before the vote.

In July, Maduro held an election to create a new and massively powerful political body known as a “constituent assembly” that was given carte blanche to rewrite the country’s constitution and supplant the opposition-controlled parliament. The opposition boycotted the election, slamming the special election process designed for the parliament as rigged in Maduro’s favor, and allies of Maduro’s Socialist Party won all 545 seats.

Maduro also declined to hold a referendum on whether such a constituent assembly was even desired in Venezuela — something that was a break from recent precedent.
What a great democracy there by Maduro. Jail your opponents. Theaten people with no food, move polling stations, and create a new political body and stuff it with your buddies.

I am half heartdly expecting you to tell us about how democratic North Korea is next LOL.
 
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As someone who doesn't fetishize democracy(democracy without the rule of law and individual rights doesn't mean anything), none of that even matters.

The country has seen a 60%+ drop in GDP in 4 years, which is an unprecedented economic disaster, there are millions of refugees fleeing, which is threatening to destabilize it's neighbors.

Maduro simply has to go.

I still don't support US intervention but I do favor the steps so far taken(recognizing the AN as the legitimate government, sending humanitarian aid).
You seem reasonable. If you're interested in a little history... This tweet outlined things quite well. It's all explained in the replies.

 
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You seem reasonable. If you're interested in a little history... This tweet outlined things quite well. It's all explained in the replies.

No need, I've been following the Venezuela situation pretty closely for years. I know what has caused the crisis. Nearly 2 decades of some of the worst economic policy decisions in history will do that. It's all pretty basic econ 101 shit too. Printing money + price controls = destroyed economy.

Trying to blame colonialism or US imperialism is laughable. Well after all the history in those tweets, Venezuela was still a relatively wealthy nation. Their problems started with the nationalization of the oil industry in the 1970s(leading to worsening production declines since then) and were completed by the economically illiterate Chavismo(which destroyed the non-oil side of the economy with price controls).
 
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Do you read the articles ?
Did you think while reading? Because your highlights are extremely selective.

Venezuela’s opposition alliance called on the United Nations on Monday not to send observers to the presidential election on May 20 to avoid legitimizing a poll it says is rigged in favor of Socialist President Nicolas Maduro.
Because everything the opposition says is true, and Maduro says is a lie, right?

The main opposition coalition is boycotting the election on the grounds that the elections council has historically favored the ruling Socialist Party, and because the best-known candidates have been jailed or barred from holding office.
Why didn't you highlight the boycotting of the election? If Maduro truly was SO bad and so many Venezuelans wanted him gone, any other candidate would do, right?
The "best known" candidates? The likes of Leopoldo Lopez which are known to organize coup attempts and violent attacks?

He did it in part by banning two of the most popular opposition leaders, Leopoldo Lopez and Henrique Capriles, from running in the election — by sort of implying that any Venezuelans who didn’t vote for him might lose their government food subsidies.
Sort of implying? Seriously? That sounds like reaching for a conclusion. And you take that as fact?
And from your Aljazeera link;
However, back in Venezuela, thousands of Maduro supporters danced outside the Miraflores presidential palace in the capital, Caracas.
"Here at home the process was quiet, organised," Rossana Melendez, an environmental manager and government supporter, told Al Jazeera.
"The result must be respected. I support Maduro's mandate, and it's obviously my wish for this process to continue," she added.

Why did you leave those out?

Maduro has a track record of interfering with the political process to maintain his grip on power.
Clearly an allegation. Where's the evidence? He clearly won the election of 2013 fair and square. And the only reason things are in question now is because the opposition refused to run.

During elections for state governors back in October, the National Electoral Council, which is dominated by openly pro-Maduro sympathizers, moved the location of hundreds of heavily pro-opposition polling stations just hours before the vote.
Clearly an opinion piece, and no references. Here is a sequence of events. Not only doesn't it mention anything regarding moving polling stations, they remained open for longer hours awaiting more votes. What a terrible dictator Maduro must be for not immediately closing the stations.

In July, Maduro held an election to create a new and massively powerful political body known as a “constituent assemblythat was given carte blanche to rewrite the country’s constitution and supplant the opposition-controlled parliament. The opposition boycotted the election, slamming the special election process designed for the parliament as rigged in Maduro’s favor, and allies of Maduro’s Socialist Party won all 545 seats.
Again with the selective reading. Read the underlined parts.
Why did you bold out 'opposition', but left the 'controlled parliament' out? The national assembly was opposition controlled and was not cooperating with anything. He didn't dismantle it, but held elections to create the constituent assembly. Once again, the OPPOSITION BOYCOTTED by not participating. Then they play victim and say it was rigged. And that is then somehow used to say Maduro is a dictator? Obviously if no opposition participates, it's going to be full of Maduro's people. Is Maduro really to blame for that? Get real bro.

Maduro also declined to hold a referendum on whether such a constituent assembly was even desired in Venezuela — something that was a break from recent precedent.
Where's the referendum in the US whether they should be spending half a billion dollars a year in Colombia? Where's the referendum for invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya? Where's the referendum for Obamacare?
Need I go on?

What a great democracy there by Maduro. Jail your opponents. Theaten people with no food, move polling stations, and create a new political body and stuff it with your buddies.
Only if you read selectively.

I am half heartdly expecting you to tell us about how democratic North Korea is next LOL.
I did not delve into North Korea. What I do know is that the US is currently doing business with leaders a LOT worse than Maduro.
 
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You define it then, and we'll go on from there.

Again with the contempt, and an easy cop out...
To quote Wikipedia:

According to American political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: a political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; the active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; protection of the human rights of all citizens; a rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.
There is no real rule of law in Venezuela. And elections are not fair.

I will ask you another question. Why do you think Maduro won the election (first one)? What do you think prompted the Chavista base to vote for him? This is an easy quiz.
 
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I'm the one "regurgitating"? What have you said that goes beyond what the mainstream media has said?
I even backed my arguments with information from Wikipedia.
What is wrong with Abby Martin? She criticized RT as an employee of RT. If anyone is trustworthy, it is her. At least way more than Fox & CNN and the likes.

The funny thing is, that pretty much every truly independent media source out there clearly sees this as a coup. And all those sources are labeled as Russian propaganda, Chavismo and whatnot. No counter arguments, no discourse, nothing. It's all attempted ridicule and contempt.
Here's another one;
Abby Martin is a fucking shill. She has parroted the Chavez/maduro party line for years, denying many of the problems in the country until they couldn't be ignored, and straight up lying to viewers. The documentary you cited earlier contained many of those lies.

The supermarkets are full? Lie. The inflation is caused by foriegn currency? Lies. The police don't attack protestors? Lied about that. They don't arrest political opponents? Lied about that for years?

It's not about "mainstream" news. It's about reality. She doesn't report it. If you watched Abbey, you would think Venezuela is going though a little recession, and not what is clearly a huge economic upheaval. She doesn't report reality, she only reports bullshit and spin.