It's getting hot in Venezuela: US backs opposition as "Venezuela President"

Jul 23, 2018
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No need, I've been following the Venezuela situation pretty closely for years. I know what has caused the crisis. Nearly 2 decades of some of the worst economic policy decisions in history will do that. It's all pretty basic econ 101 shit too. Printing money + price controls = destroyed economy.

Trying to blame colonialism or US imperialism is laughable. Well after all the history in those tweets, Venezuela was still a relatively wealthy nation. Their problems started with the nationalization of the oil industry in the 1970s(leading to worsening production declines since then) and were completed by the economically illiterate Chavismo(which destroyed the non-oil side of the economy with price controls).
Why did they print so much money? As a reference, look how much money the US has printed, and yet its inflation is not over a million percent. What is the difference?
The US doesn't have price controls? (Before you answer, think about what subsidies are).
Venezuela was so-called wealthy, but it is never mentioned that poverty decreased significantly since Chavez took power. So, is socialism the problem then?
What they also don't mention is that the biggest issue is at the border with Colombia. That is an important detail, both for the economy of Venezuela as for the US involvement, considering the US sends half a billion dollars a year to Colombia.

There is no real rule of law in Venezuela. And elections are not fair.
And that's since when? Since Maduro? Since Chavez? Yeah... Don't think so.

I will ask you another question. Why do you think Maduro won the election (first one)? What do you think prompted the Chavista base to vote for him? This is an easy quiz.
There can be multiple answers, and it's unlikely I'll say the one you want to hear, but, I request that when I answer, you reply back with what the reason is according to you, rather than "yeah you don't know anything, that's why I won't discuss". Deal? Ok.
Because he was appointed by Chavez and Chavismo gets the vote of the majority of the poor people?

Abby Martin is a fucking shill. She has parroted the Chavez/maduro party line for years, denying many of the problems in the country until they couldn't be ignored, and straight up lying to viewers. The documentary you cited earlier contained many of those lies.
How are they lies when they interview people from both sides?

The supermarkets are full? Lie.
Judge for yourself;


And as a bonus, here's some direct evidence that the US supermarkets are empty. Everyone in the US must be starving....



The inflation is caused by foriegn currency? Lies.
That's not what the argument is.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog...lation-was-not-caused-by-over-printing-money/

The police don't attack protestors? Lied about that.
Because in the US police never shot innocent people unnecessarily... That definitely means that the whole police force is bad and that Trump is a dictator!

They don't arrest political opponents? Lied about that for years?
So... Are you saying that if a political opponent breaks the law that they should not be arrested, because they are political opponents? See, you constantly fall for the tricks. That a political opponent was arrested doesn't mean that he was arrested because he was a political opponent. That's part of the media manipulation. A premise that is passed by you, so you accept it without really thinking about it.

It's not about "mainstream" news. It's about reality. She doesn't report it. If you watched Abbey, you would think Venezuela is going though a little recession, and not what is clearly a huge economic upheaval. She doesn't report reality, she only reports bullshit and spin.
Really? Which mainstream news outlet or mainstream news reporter actually went to Venezuela and joined protests, interviewed both sides, interviewed government officials, and even dealt in the black market? Yeah... Exactly...
 
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And that's since when? Since Maduro? Since Chavez? Yeah... Don't think so.
As someone commented earlier our problems began in the 70's. Chavez just went full retard.
There can be multiple answers, and it's unlikely I'll say the one you want to hear, but, I request that when I answer, you reply back with what the reason is according to you, rather than "yeah you don't know anything, that's why I won't discuss". Deal? Ok.
Because he was appointed by Chavez and Chavismo gets the vote of the majority of the poor people?
Quite literally Chavez appointed him, in an emotional speech before he went to Cuba to have his Cancer treated. "Chavez, lo juro, mi voto es por Maduro!". So he was quite literally put in place. He's just a puppet for the Cubans and Chavismo at large.

It's common knowledge that if you have $$ you can live like a king in Venezuela. Venezuela is a country of contrasts. There are many rich people (who we call enchufados) that work for the government and steal money. They are "nuevos ricos". If you go to a high end restaurant in Caracas you will most likely find it full.

There are others who work in freelance (on the internet) and so they get around.

Now working formally and earning bolivares? Impossible. You have to rely on food boxes.

That's not what the argument is.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog...lation-was-not-caused-by-over-printing-money/


Because in the US police never shot innocent people unnecessarily... That definitely means that the whole police force is bad and that Trump is a dictator!
It's quite ridiculous to compare the police force of Venezuela to that of US. Police here is completely compromised and they perpetrate a large chunk of crimes. Many of them are "malandros in disguise" and just as bad a comon thugs.

So... Are you saying that if a political opponent breaks the law that they should not be arrested, because they are political opponents? See, you constantly fall for the tricks. That a political opponent was arrested doesn't mean that he was arrested because he was a political opponent. That's part of the media manipulation. A premise that is passed by you, so you accept it without really thinking about it.

Really? Which mainstream news outlet or mainstream news reporter actually went to Venezuela and joined protests, interviewed both sides, interviewed government officials, and even dealt in the black market? Yeah... Exactly...
You seem to ignore that the Government is effectively indistinguishable from a political party here. Government and oficialismo is synonym with Chavismo . They use their power as political tools.

You can nit pick and construct any narrative you want. I don't care. And I also don't associate with the "mainstream" narrative. I associate with the struggle of my people and their naivete in letting all this happen.

Perspective is important. When you're here and you deal constantly with the shit that goes on. When you see how negligent government officials are. How they talk and talk and talk and nothing ever happens. How they push forward "projects" in order to take a huge chunk of money for themselves and constructions never get completed. And you know that goes from the bottom up and top down. Values are lost. No one trusts each other. And when you pay attention you can clearly see that this was all intended, as in it was necessary for "them" to hold onto power.

If this whole "intervention" thing goes south then I guess Venezuela was just destined to fail and self destruct. Because it is the only option.
 
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Mar 5, 2007
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Why did they print so much money? As a reference, look how much money the US has printed, and yet its inflation is not over a million percent. What is the difference?
The US doesn't have price controls? (Before you answer, think about what subsidies are).
Venezuela was so-called wealthy, but it is never mentioned that poverty decreased significantly since Chavez took power. So, is socialism the problem then?

What they also don't mention is that the biggest issue is at the border with Colombia. That is an important detail, both for the economy of Venezuela as for the US involvement, considering the US sends half a billion dollars a year to Colombia.
They printed so much money to pay for bribes to the poor to make them popular, more or less. When oil revenues dropped, they were forced to accelerate the money printing, leading to the runaway inflation we see now.

As for why the USD hasn't seen inflation with the amount of money printing we've done, there are several reasons. Mainly that the increase in the monetary base is on a completely different scale. The other major factors are that the monetary expansions in the dollar never fully made it to the larger economy, it was meant as an emergency measure to provide liquidity to financial institutions, most of which remained on their balance sheets instead of being loaned out to the real economy, so it could not effect inflation. Also at this time, there was the euro banking crisis, which result in massive amounts of capital inflows to the dollar, which propped it up. There are advantages to being the defacto world currency.

As for the so called decrease in poverty, it's fairly easy to decrease poverty when you are just giving away money. The problem comes when the money runs out. You can't just ignore what has happened since 2012. Also the reduction in poverty is vastly overstated because of the difference in the official vs real world exchange rates, which diverged as early as 2003 when currency controls were implemented.

As far as price controls in the US go, subsidies are not the same as price controls functionally. They are bad economic policy sure, but they are not the same as price controls. Where we do have price controls in the US(rent in certain cities) we do see the textbook results, shortages and reduced quality, same as in Venezuela. Can also go back and look at historical examples like the arab oil embargo in the 70s or the cheese glut caused by the Carter administration dairy price controls(which we are still dealing with today). Also you can look at the effect of price gouging laws during emergencies. In every situation you see the econ 101 textbook result. Fucking around with market prices is one of the worst economic policies you can implement, it has been since Diocletian tried it in 301 AD. You'd think over 1700 years of undefeated historical evidence would be enough, but it never is.

I'm not one of those people who reflexively blame socialism for everything in Venezuela, but there are specific economic policies that are directly linked to the economic results we are seeing. Fiscal recklessness leading to expansion in the monetary base and price controls being the big two. There is basically universal agreement in economics about the effects of these kinds of policies, even among left wing economists.
 
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Cybrwzrd

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Why did they print so much money? As a reference, look how much money the US has printed, and yet its inflation is not over a million percent. What is the difference?
The US has a large mixed economy. As long we don't suffer a crippling depression across all sectors, then our federal reserve can adjust course to prevent hyper inflation. Also people want Dollars because we have a large stable economy. Venezuela had oil.. and not much else, and that bubble popped. Then they couldn't pay their bills. Then they had to print money to paid said bills.

Japan can't print Yen fast enough to create the inflation they desire, because people desire yen. Because they too have a strong economy. Who the fuck wants to buy a worthless Bolivar?
 
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Two questions.

A) Do you think this humanitarian aid is free?
B) Do you really think the military is required for humanitarian aid?
A) Is irrelivent
B) Yes, you need to protect it so they're not taken over by militant groups or the government.

See what happens to United Nations Aid when they send it in without any troops. It gets stolen by other militant groups, or by the government itself.

People are fucking starving. Well, everyone except Maduro and his cabinet.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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A) Is irrelivent
B) Yes, you need to protect it so they're not taken over by militant groups or the government.

See what happens to United Nations Aid when they send it in without any troops. It gets stolen by other militant groups, or by the government itself.

People are fucking starving. Well, everyone except Maduro and his cabinet.
A is not irrelevant. If the country is already in so much debt, the only way to pay back is the country's resources, which is exactly what the US wants, and if they aren't willing to give it up, they will get bombed.

The part of the militant groups is a fair point. That still doesn't mean you need fighter jets on neighboring islands.

Check the video below, Feb 8th, of all the people walking around. Do any of these people look like they're starving? And note that this is an opposition channel. Feel free to scan through all the videos there and show me starving people in one of them. Good luck.

 
Apr 15, 2018
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Check the video below, Feb 8th, of all the people walking around. Do any of these people look like they're starving? And note that this is an opposition channel. Feel free to scan through all the videos there and show me starving people in one of them. Good luck.

:messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:

I fucking can't. You have to be trolling now.
 
Likes: DeepEnigma

Ravic

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Apr 20, 2017
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Maduro's government situation is the result of South America leftist government running amok.

We almost had that here in Brazil, but thank God we elected Bolsonaro.
 
Likes: cryptoadam
Feb 21, 2018
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A is not irrelevant. If the country is already in so much debt, the only way to pay back is the country's resources, which is exactly what the US wants, and if they aren't willing to give it up, they will get bombed.

The part of the militant groups is a fair point. That still doesn't mean you need fighter jets on neighboring islands.

Check the video below, Feb 8th, of all the people walking around. Do any of these people look like they're starving? And note that this is an opposition channel. Feel free to scan through all the videos there and show me starving people in one of them. Good luck.

 
Likes: DeepEnigma
Mar 7, 2018
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A is not irrelevant. If the country is already in so much debt, the only way to pay back is the country's resources, which is exactly what the US wants, and if they aren't willing to give it up, they will get bombed.

The part of the militant groups is a fair point. That still doesn't mean you need fighter jets on neighboring islands.

Check the video below, Feb 8th, of all the people walking around. Do any of these people look like they're starving? And note that this is an opposition channel. Feel free to scan through all the videos there and show me starving people in one of them. Good luck.

Seriously dude, fuck you.
 
Likes: cryptoadam
Jul 23, 2018
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Seriously dude, fuck you.
Let me put it this way... Do you REALLY think the US cares about starving people in Venezuela while they don't give a shit about their own starving people? Let's put things in perspective... Paraphrasing a few facts from here, and interjecting some logic in here;

Worldwide, 736 million people, or 10% of the world’s population, live on the equivalent of less than $1.90 per day. The whole of Venezuela is around 32 million people. So... Why are they so keen on 'helping' specifically Venezuela?
Especially because Venezuela is not even in the top 10 starving countries. In fact, they're not even in the top 60 according to the Global Hunger index. Let me guess... "Maduro lies about the numbers"... Uhuh. Sure he does. If the US really cared about hunger, anywhere in the American continent, they would be focusing on Haiti.

In the US, there are 39.7 million people living in poverty in the US, including 12.8 million children. That’s 1 in 6 American children. 40 million Americans are food insecure, meaning they are often forced to skip meals, eat less at meals, buy cheap non-nutritious food and/or feed their children but not themselves. Not to mention those 40 million people, are more than the whole population of Venezuela. So... again, Why are they so keen on 'helping' specifically Venezuela?
 
Likes: hariseldon
Mar 7, 2018
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Let me put it this way... Do you REALLY think the US cares about starving people in Venezuela while they don't give a shit about their own starving people? Let's put things in perspective... Paraphrasing a few facts from here, and interjecting some logic in here;

Worldwide, 736 million people, or 10% of the world’s population, live on the equivalent of less than $1.90 per day. The whole of Venezuela is around 32 million people. So... Why are they so keen on 'helping' specifically Venezuela?
Especially because Venezuela is not even in the top 10 starving countries. In fact, they're not even in the top 60 according to the Global Hunger index. Let me guess... "Maduro lies about the numbers"... Uhuh. Sure he does. If the US really cared about hunger, anywhere in the American continent, they would be focusing on Haiti.

In the US, there are 39.7 million people living in poverty in the US, including 12.8 million children. That’s 1 in 6 American children. 40 million Americans are food insecure, meaning they are often forced to skip meals, eat less at meals, buy cheap non-nutritious food and/or feed their children but not themselves. Not to mention those 40 million people, are more than the whole population of Venezuela. So... again, Why are they so keen on 'helping' specifically Venezuela?
Are you going to try to sell me supplements too?
 
Likes: EviLore
Mar 5, 2007
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Let me put it this way... Do you REALLY think the US cares about starving people in Venezuela while they don't give a shit about their own starving people? Let's put things in perspective... Paraphrasing a few facts from here, and interjecting some logic in here;

Worldwide, 736 million people, or 10% of the world’s population, live on the equivalent of less than $1.90 per day. The whole of Venezuela is around 32 million people. So... Why are they so keen on 'helping' specifically Venezuela?
Especially because Venezuela is not even in the top 10 starving countries. In fact, they're not even in the top 60 according to the Global Hunger index. Let me guess... "Maduro lies about the numbers"... Uhuh. Sure he does. If the US really cared about hunger, anywhere in the American continent, they would be focusing on Haiti.

In the US, there are 39.7 million people living in poverty in the US, including 12.8 million children. That’s 1 in 6 American children. 40 million Americans are food insecure, meaning they are often forced to skip meals, eat less at meals, buy cheap non-nutritious food and/or feed their children but not themselves. Not to mention those 40 million people, are more than the whole population of Venezuela. So... again, Why are they so keen on 'helping' specifically Venezuela?
Governments, as amoral rational actors, are incapable of caring by definition. I'm sure there are individuals in the US government that do care, and some that don't. That's not really the point though, the point is that governments have interests, and in particular it is in the US government's interest to not allow the refugee crisis in Venezuela to destabilize Latin America, Colombia and Brazil in particular.

Colombia and Brazil are very interested in this as well, and they will act if they have to, regardless of what the US does or does not do. If the US can use it's diplomatic and economic power to prevent the situation from reaching the point where that is needed, it seems like it could be a good thing.

As far as Haiti goes, Haiti is not really a threat to regional stability right now.

And trying to compare the US standards and rates of poverty to the situation in Venezuela right now is just laughable.
 
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Likes: DeepEnigma
Jul 23, 2018
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Governments, as amoral rational actors, are incapable of caring by definition. I'm sure there are individuals in the US government that do care, and some that don't. That's not really the point though, the point is that governments have interests, and in particular it is in the US government's interest to not allow the refugee crisis in Venezuela to destabilize Latin America, Colombia and Brazil in particular.
And why would they care about destabilization of Latin America, Colombia and Brazil? Particularly Colombia though. That place is a mess and always has been. The only reason it's not is because of the half a billion dollars the US sends to them every year. They don't send it to Venezuela though. They sanction them instead.
Also... Mexico has more refugees than Venezuela.

Colombia and Brazil are very interested in this as well, and they will act if they have to, regardless of what the US does or does not do. If the US can use it's diplomatic and economic power to prevent the situation from reaching the point where that is needed, it seems like it could be a good thing.
Nah... They are only acting because the US is. It's not a coincidence that it all started in those countries after their right wing politicians won.

As far as Haiti goes, Haiti is not really a threat to regional stability right now.
Ok so we don't care at all about starving people. You agree that governments have interests. And you are aware that they have been selling this starvation story. Isn't it obvious that it's propaganda, and not the truth? And, doesn't that make you question how far the propaganda goes?

And trying to compare the US standards and rates of poverty to the situation in Venezuela right now is just laughable.
Why ignore the fact that Venezuela is not in the top 60 countries of starving people?
 
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And why would they care about destabilization of Latin America, Colombia and Brazil? Particularly Colombia though. That place is a mess and always has been. The only reason it's not is because of the half a billion dollars the US sends to them every year. They don't send it to Venezuela though. They sanction them instead.
Also... Mexico has more refugees than Venezuela.


Nah... They are only acting because the US is. It's not a coincidence that it all started in those countries after their right wing politicians won.


Ok so we don't care at all about starving people. You agree that governments have interests. And you are aware that they have been selling this starvation story. Isn't it obvious that it's propaganda, and not the truth? And, doesn't that make you question how far the propaganda goes?


Why ignore the fact that Venezuela is not in the top 60 countries of starving people?
Since it's blatantly obvious that you don't give a shit about Venezuelans why are you so interested in what the US might do here?
 
Mar 5, 2007
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And why would they care about destabilization of Latin America, Colombia and Brazil? Particularly Colombia though. That place is a mess and always has been. The only reason it's not is because of the half a billion dollars the US sends to them every year. They don't send it to Venezuela though. They sanction them instead.
Also... Mexico has more refugees than Venezuela.


Nah... They are only acting because the US is. It's not a coincidence that it all started in those countries after their right wing politicians won.


Ok so we don't care at all about starving people. You agree that governments have interests. And you are aware that they have been selling this starvation story. Isn't it obvious that it's propaganda, and not the truth? And, doesn't that make you question how far the propaganda goes?


Why ignore the fact that Venezuela is not in the top 60 countries of starving people?
Because an unstable Latin America means increased immigration, because many of the countries the Venezuelan refugees may potentially destabilize are US allies and trading partners, etc. There are plenty of reasons.

As for sanctions vs aid, the US has tried to give aid to Venezuela before but been rejected, as the current attempt has been.

Colombia and Brazil both sent troops to the border before the US got involved. Hell, Bolsonaro campaigned partially on restoring democracy in Venezuela.

As for it being obvious that it's propaganda, well no, it isn't. We have some fairly damning hard data that proves it is real. First is the fact that nearly 15% of the population of the country has fled, and this is under a regime that has made it difficult for people to do so. Second there is the acknowledged ~65% decrease in GDP (predicted to drop another 25% this year if things do not change) in the past 5 years.

Even if the US were playing up anecdotes of starvation to make things seem worse than they were, the data shows that the situation is completely dire regardless.

If we are talking propaganda though, why don't you mention the Russian and Chinese and Cuban propaganda driven by their governments interests to not lose all the money they loaned to the Chavez and Maduro regimes? Because that is the most clear cut example of foreign interference happening in the country right now.

I ignored the bolded because you admitted yourself the official data can not be trusted:

The Venezuelan government has tried to cover up the extent of the crisis by enforcing a near-total blackout of health statistics, and by creating a culture in which doctors are often afraid to register cases and deaths that may be associated with the government’s failures.
But the statistics that have come out are staggering. In the Ministry of Health’s 2015 annual report, the mortality rate for children under 4 weeks old had increased a hundredfold, from 0.02 percent in 2012 to just over 2 percent. Maternal mortality had increased nearly fivefold in the same period.
For almost two years, the government did not publish a single epidemiological bulletin tracking statistics like infant mortality. Then in April of this year, a link suddenly appeared on the Health Ministry’s official website, leading to the unpublished bulletins. They showed that 11,446 children under the age of 1 had died in 2016 — a 30 percent increase in one year — as the economic crisis accelerated.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/17/world/americas/venezuela-children-starving.html

I don't understand why you are trying to defend the indefensible here. Chavismo is a bankrupt ideology that has been propped up by authoritarian regimes in order to loot the wealth of the nation. If you want to make the argument that it's none of the US's business or that the US will likely make things worse if it intervenes, I'll probably agree with you. Don't try to pretend that what is going on is not a humanitarian catastrophe though, because it makes you look completely intellectually dishonest(at best).
 
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Likes: cryptoadam
Jul 23, 2018
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Because an unstable Latin America means increased immigration, because many of the countries the Venezuelan refugees may potentially destabilize are US allies and trading partners, etc. There are plenty of reasons.
What about all the Colombian refugees over the last decades? The only difference is that Colombia accepts US "aid", and Venezuela doesn't.

As for sanctions vs aid, the US has tried to give aid to Venezuela before but been rejected, as the current attempt has been.
Really? When was that? Before or after the 2002 coup against Chavez? And oh, if there already was a coup, do you really think this isn't one?

Colombia and Brazil both sent troops to the border before the US got involved. Hell, Bolsonaro campaigned partially on restoring democracy in Venezuela.

As for it being obvious that it's propaganda, well no, it isn't. We have some fairly damning hard data that proves it is real. First is the fact that nearly 15% of the population of the country has fled, and this is under a regime that has made it difficult for people to do so. Second there is the acknowledged ~65% decrease in GDP (predicted to drop another 25% this year if things do not change) in the past 5 years.
Not the point. I'm not saying Venezuela does not have problems. They do have serious problems. However... There is definitely propaganda about the magnitude of the problems, and more important, what the cause is of the problems. Obviously it's convenient for the capitalists to throw the blame on terrible horrible evil socialism label.

Even if the US were playing up anecdotes of starvation to make things seem worse than they were, the data shows that the situation is completely dire regardless.
This is true. But one must not forget the easy scapegoat scenario.

If we are talking propaganda though, why don't you mention the Russian and Chinese and Cuban propaganda driven by their governments interests to not lose all the money they loaned to the Chavez and Maduro regimes? Because that is the most clear cut example of foreign interference happening in the country right now.
Well, that is obvious. But what propaganda do we see by the Russian, Chinese and Cuban nowadays? It barely reaches anyone unless you go look for it. And even if they state truths, everyone immediately assumes it is propaganda. But the most important thing is the following. The most dangerous propaganda is the one you cannot recognize. And people are extremely resistant to accepting there is propaganda by their own leaders. It's how Hitler managed to get so many followers. And it's exactly what the west takes advantage of when it comes to their own citizens. The ones that can recognize it are either called crazy or conspiracy theorists (not saying that all crazies or all conspiracies are true), and the ones that obey are called good citizens.

Still don't think there's propaganda? Look at this;

What everyone fails to recognize on that border picture... The so-called Venezuelan military has blocked the bridge. But, where's all the military vessels and camps blocking the bridge? Where is the 'aid' trying to get to Venezuela? And then this, which proves that the bridge actually NEVER OPENED after being finished three years ago;
https://medium.com/@justin.emery/the-tienditas-bridge-blockade-f240728fe5f7

Still don't think there's propaganda? Well here's one of the many smoking guns. If you really care about humanitarian aid, why are you sending weapons (19 rifles, 118 magazines and 90 wireless radios ) on commercial flights from Miami to Venezuela?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-weapons-hidden-airport-delivered-Miami.html

Oh let me guess. It's Maduro planting those to demonize the US. Because the perfect benevolent white knight called the US government would never ever do such a thing. Right? RIGHT??? It's not as if operation northwoods, operation washtub, or project TP-Ajax exist, among many others... And even better...;

Interesting article. I can tell they are masters of psychological manipulation. First, they tell you its economy has collapsed, never saying why. Then they tell you about starving children, which obviously will pull on your heart-strings, immediately setting the precedent for how horrible a place it must be. Then they show you a picture to make you focus on the small coffin of a poor child that died. But because of the emotional state, you miss the fact that the other children standing around the coffin don't look at all like they're starving. Sure. They're not fat, but they look perfectly healthy.
Then they follow with saying the government knows but won't admit it, making you immediately hate the government. Then it's followed by a picture of a kid in a box with a horrible environment, re-enforcing the idea of the terrible place and the terrible government. Then a picture again in a very poor environment, now with a very thin mother and a crying child. And then, well, the burial of a small child, which is tragic. But yet again, due to the emotional state you're in, you miss the fact that over 25 people there don't look like they're starving. They're obviously very sad though, because of the child that died. And then they start with multiple stories... All sad. And a bunch of pictures re-enforcing the above.

Look, even if this is all true, such an article can be made for anywhere in the world, and that includes the US. Sure. The US infant death rate due to malnutrition is significantly lower than the one in Venezuela (0.64 vs 1.93). It's not 10 times lower though, even though the US population is 10 times larger. That means, that in total, more children die of malnutrition in the US than in Venezuela. Calculating the rate gives us around 2000 US children, and 620 Venezuelan children. If they want to reach the same amount of children of the US, the malnutrition death rate would need to be around 6.23.
And do you know which countries have a higher malnutrition death rate than Venezuela in the region? Dominican Republic. Argentina, Suriname. Chile. Panama. Brazil. Nicaragua. Paraguay. Honduras. Colombia. Ecuador. El Salvador. Peru. Mexico. Bolivia. Haiti. Guatemala. But Venezuela is the worst of all and the one that needs saving, right?

Data used from here;
https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/malnutrition/by-country/

Disclaimer:
Website states;
"the most recent data from these primary sources: WHO, World Bank, UNESCO, CIA and individual country databases for global health and causes of death. We use the CDC, NIH and individual state and county databases for verification and supplementation for USA data. "
And;
"WHO Excludes Cause of Death Data For the following countries: Andorra, Cook Islands, Dominica, Marshall Islands, Monaco, Nauru, Niue, Palau, Saint Kitts, San Marino, Tuvalu. " Meaning, they have the Venezuelan data.

I don't understand why you are trying to defend the indefensible here.
The only thing that is indefensible is propaganda being used to justify destabilizing and forcefully entering another country.

Chavismo is a bankrupt ideology that has been propped up by authoritarian regimes in order to loot the wealth of the nation.
I guess it's better if it's looted by western capitalistic nations instead...?

If you want to make the argument that it's none of the US's business or that the US will likely make things worse if it intervenes, I'll probably agree with you. Don't try to pretend that what is going on is not a humanitarian catastrophe though, because it makes you look completely intellectually dishonest(at best).
It is a humanitarian catastrophe. I never said it wasn't. But it simply is not the worst one out there. If the whole country was really starving, we wouldn't be seeing so many healthy people walking around. That doesn't mean that there are no starving people. I could go to any country and with pictures tell people what I want. If I go to the Dominican Republic, I can paint it as heaven on earth by showing pictures of Punta Cana, or, I can paint it as worse than Venezuela (which it actually is, bar economic issues) by taking pictures of the people in slums there. The 'catastrophe' is being used as an excuse to further a political agenda, while ignoring the worse places out there. And don't pretend I don't have compassion. I have been in countries where people have asked for my leftover foods at a restaurant to feed to their children (no it was not Venezuela), where in turn I have provided something that they can use to get food for at least a few days to get by. But I find it extremely grotesque that situations like these are used to manipulate the masses for them to support an intervention in another country. THAT is what is indefensible. And that is why I don't care how many insults or disagreements people throw my way. And if you really think that that doesn't happen, it's not the first time they have used sob stories, whether true or not, to invade a country or other political reasons... Leaving this here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
 
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What about all the Colombian refugees over the last decades? The only difference is that Colombia accepts US "aid", and Venezuela doesn't.


Really? When was that? Before or after the 2002 coup against Chavez? And oh, if there already was a coup, do you really think this isn't one?


Not the point. I'm not saying Venezuela does not have problems. They do have serious problems. However... There is definitely propaganda about the magnitude of the problems, and more important, what the cause is of the problems. Obviously it's convenient for the capitalists to throw the blame on terrible horrible evil socialism label.


This is true. But one must not forget the easy scapegoat scenario.


Well, that is obvious. But what propaganda do we see by the Russian, Chinese and Cuban nowadays? It barely reaches anyone unless you go look for it. And even if they state truths, everyone immediately assumes it is propaganda. But the most important thing is the following. The most dangerous propaganda is the one you cannot recognize. And people are extremely resistant to accepting there is propaganda by their own leaders. It's how Hitler managed to get so many followers. And it's exactly what the west takes advantage of when it comes to their own citizens. The ones that can recognize it are either called crazy or conspiracy theorists (not saying that all crazies or all conspiracies are true), and the ones that obey are called good citizens.

Still don't think there's propaganda? Look at this;

What everyone fails to recognize on that border picture... The so-called Venezuelan military has blocked the bridge. But, where's all the military vessels and camps blocking the bridge? Where is the 'aid' trying to get to Venezuela? And then this, which proves that the bridge actually NEVER OPENED after being finished three years ago;
https://medium.com/@justin.emery/the-tienditas-bridge-blockade-f240728fe5f7

Still don't think there's propaganda? Well here's one of the many smoking guns. If you really care about humanitarian aid, why are you sending weapons (19 rifles, 118 magazines and 90 wireless radios ) on commercial flights from Miami to Venezuela?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-weapons-hidden-airport-delivered-Miami.html

Oh let me guess. It's Maduro planting those to demonize the US. Because the perfect benevolent white knight called the US government would never ever do such a thing. Right? RIGHT??? It's not as if operation northwoods, operation washtub, or project TP-Ajax exist, among many others...


Interesting article. I can tell they are masters of psychological manipulation. First, they tell you its economy has collapsed, never saying why. Then they tell you about starving children, which obviously will pull on your heart-strings, immediately setting the precedent for how horrible a place it must be. Then they show you a picture to make you focus on the small coffin of a poor child that died. But because of the emotional state, you miss the fact that the other children standing around the coffin don't look at all like they're starving. Sure. They're not fat, but they look perfectly healthy.
Then they follow with saying the government knows but won't admit it, making you immediately hate the government. Then it's followed by a picture of a kid in a box with a horrible environment, re-enforcing the idea of the terrible place and the terrible government. Then a picture again in a very poor environment, now with a very thin mother and a crying child. And then, well, the burial of a small child, which is tragic. But yet again, due to the emotional state you're in, you miss the fact that over 25 people there don't look like they're starving. They're obviously very sad though, because of the child that died. And then they start with multiple stories... All sad. And a bunch of pictures re-enforcing the above.

Look, even if this is all true, such an article can be made for anywhere in the world, and that includes the US. Sure. The US infant death rate due to malnutrition is significantly lower than the one in Venezuela (0.64 vs 1.93). It's not 10 times lower though, even though the US population is 10 times larger. That means, that in total, more children die of malnutrition in the US than in Venezuela. Calculating the rate gives us around 2000 US children, and 620 Venezuelan children. If they want to reach the same amount of children of the US, the malnutrition death rate would need to be around 6.23.
And do you know which countries have a higher malnutrition death rate than Venezuela in the region? Dominican Republic. Argentina, Suriname. Chile. Panama. Brazil. Nicaragua. Paraguay. Honduras. Colombia. Ecuador. El Salvador. Peru. Mexico. Bolivia. Haiti. Guatemala. But Venezuela is the worst of all and the one that needs saving, right?

Data used from here;
https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/malnutrition/by-country/

Disclaimer:
Website states;
"the most recent data from these primary sources: WHO, World Bank, UNESCO, CIA and individual country databases for global health and causes of death. We use the CDC, NIH and individual state and county databases for verification and supplementation for USA data. "
And;
"WHO Excludes Cause of Death Data For the following countries: Andorra, Cook Islands, Dominica, Marshall Islands, Monaco, Nauru, Niue, Palau, Saint Kitts, San Marino, Tuvalu. " Meaning, they have the Venezuelan data.


The only thing that is indefensible is propaganda being used to justify destabilizing and forcefully entering another country.


I guess it's better if it's looted by western capitalistic nations instead...?


It is a humanitarian catastrophe. I never said it wasn't. But it simply is not the worst one out there. If the whole country was really starving, we wouldn't be seeing so many healthy people walking around. That doesn't mean that there are no starving people. I could go to any country and with pictures tell people what I want. If I go to the Dominican Republic, I can paint it as heaven on earth by showing pictures of Punta Cana, or, I can paint it as worse than Venezuela (which it actually is, bar economic issues) by taking pictures of the people in slums there. The 'catastrophe' is being used as an excuse to further a political agenda, while ignoring the worse places out there. And don't pretend I don't have compassion. I have been in countries where people have asked for my leftover foods at a restaurant to feed to their children (no it was not Venezuela), where in turn I have provided something that they can use to get food for at least a few days to get by. But I find it extremely grotesque that situations like these are used to manipulate the masses for them to support an intervention in another country. THAT is what is indefensible. And that is why I don't care how many insults or disagreements people throw my way. And if you really think that that doesn't happen, it's not the first time they have used sob stories, whether true or not, to invade a country or other political reasons... Leaving this here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
First bolded:

The WHO data shows age specific risk of death for 0-1 years in the us is .006 for all causes, so it is a complete impossibility for the rate of malnutrition deaths to be .64. We would hear if nearly one out of every 1000 infants in the US was dying of malnutrition. That website is sketchy enough on just it's appearance for me to discount it, but the number was so absurd that I actually bothered checking primary sources to confirm my suspicion.

Second:

The Dominican Republic is not close to the same economically as Venezuela. GDP per capita is well over twice what it is in Venezuela(and that is using the official stats and exchange rates), and without a giant oil industry to inflate the stats.

It is clear to me that you are not arguing in good faith though, so I'm done.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments against US interventionism to be made, however you have made none of them, all you have done is lie and cite bogus statistics and make up excuses for one of the worst kleptocracies on the planet.

You want to say the US should not invade Venezuela, I 100% agree. You want to say that the US government is a self interested actor in geopolitics and not altruistic, I agree. However, if you are arguing that the Maduro regime is not that bad or that the economic troubles are not the direct result of Chavismo economic policies than you are just a complete and shameless liar, and there really is no point in continuing the conversation.
 
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First bolded:

The WHO data shows age specific risk of death for 0-1 years in the us is .006 for all causes, so it is a complete impossibility for the rate of malnutrition deaths to be .64. We would hear if nearly one out of every 1000 infants in the US was dying of malnutrition. That website is sketchy enough on just it's appearance for me to discount it, but the number was so absurd that I actually bothered checking primary sources to confirm my suspicion.
Their rate is per 100.000, not 1000 like WHO. So... You need to multiply that number by 100, or divide my numbers 100 to be on the same page... And also, you only took the data for males. Add on the females, and, it's 0.011 for all causes, making it 1.1 for all causes...

The Dominican Republic is not close to the same economically as Venezuela. GDP per capita is well over twice what it is in Venezuela(and that is using the official stats and exchange rates), and without a giant oil industry to inflate the stats.
Bar economic issues, means, except economic issues.

It is clear to me that you are not arguing in good faith though, so I'm done.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments against US interventionism to be made, however you have made none of them, all you have done is lie and cite bogus statistics and make up excuses for one of the worst kleptocracies on the planet.
Lie? Where did I lie?
No bogus statistics. If you took a closer look rather than be frustrated, you would have seen that.
Kleptocracy? Let me guess. The US media told you that one too? Is there any place on this planet that is not a kleptocracy?

You want to say the US should not invade Venezuela, I 100% agree. You want to say that the US government is a self interested actor in geopolitics and not altruistic, I agree.
Good.


However, if you are arguing that the Maduro regime is not that bad
All I can say is...

or that the economic troubles are not the direct result of Chavismo economic policies
They're not. That's what it's being sold as to maintain or even increase the capitalistic boot on the neck of all the citizens of this planet. If you can't see that reality, or accept it, well, that's on you.

than you are just a complete and shameless liar, and there really is no point in continuing the conversation.
You're free to prove me wrong. But I guess it's easier to see me as the enemy, rather than the ones that sell themselves as saviors.
 
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So you're just a socialist
"Just" a socialist eh? Where would we be if we weren't trying to be derogatory to people who don't have the same views as us... :messenger_weary:

In any case... As someone who believes many of the poor are themselves responsible for remaining that way, because they are more concerned with not looking poor rather than not being poor, no, I don't classify as a socialist. Once again, it's easy to demonize and label someone as some sort of monster rather than facing the facts. The psyop really worked well on you.

in denial that Venezuela and Chavez's experiment failed?
Denial? Experiment? It's easy to say something failed when wanting to ignore the sabotage going on. Any country, whether socialist or capitalist, would succumb under the exact same circumstances. Here's an example of someone that actually gets the source of the problem.
https://barbadosunderground.net/2018/09/05/suppose-barbados-was-venezuela/

I have provided plenty of independent resources showing another perspective. You're either interested in exploring the truth, or you're not, in which case you'd prefer to repeat the same drivel spouted by the mainstream propaganda machine.

Is that why you're defending this crap.
What "crap" am I defending. Until now, I've clearly provided sources and logical reasoning for everything stated. So if you could be more specific, and actually give rebuttals rather than scorn, that would be great.

The mental gymnastics are something else.
Indeed. A lot of gymnastics are required to deny the blatant lies by the media. If even after the reports of the tienditas bridge, you still don't get it, I'm not the one in denial. Let me post another link and quote a few things.

Indeed, as Bevins also noted, the Red Cross has long been working with local authorities inside Venezuela to deliver relief, and just last week doubled its budget to do so. We have ample evidence the Maduro government is more than willing to work with international aid when it’s offered in good faith, not when it’s a thinly veiled mechanism to spur civil war and contrive PR victories for those seeking to overthrow the government. It’s not just Maduro—as the Western media are presenting it—who opposes the US aid convoy; it’s the UN and Red Cross. Why do none of the above reports note this rather key piece of information, instead giving the reader the impression it’s only the stance of a sadistic, power-hungry madman?
------------------------
It’s true the Venezuelan government appears to have placed an oil tanker and cargo containers on the bridge to prevent incursion from the Colombian side, but the other barriers, as writer and software developer Jason Emery noted, have been in place since at least 2016. According to La Opinion (2/5/16), after its initial construction in 2015, the bridge has never been open to traffic. How can Maduro, as the BBC suggested, “reopen” a bridge that was never open?
The reality is BBC and other Western media were just going along with the narrative pushed by Sen. Marco Rubio and Trump Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, not bothering to check if their primary visual narrative was based on a bad faith, context-free PR stunt.
------------------------
(3) The Venezuelan government has an entirely rational reason to suspect the US would use humanitarian aid as a cover to smuggle in weapons to foment armed conflict: The person running quarterback for Trump on the current Venezuela operation, Elliot Abrams, literally did just that 30 years ago.
It’s literally the exact same person in charge of the operation who we know—with 100 percent certainty, because he admitted to it—has a history of using aid convoys as a cover to smuggle in arms to right-wing militias.


Yet another independent source...
https://fair.org/home/western-media...Rm-pPsCUfbETGp0_bqOrx3Cq0-_8jpdzg5Y_mEBpGs4Is


Be careful what you accuse others of being. Take a long hard look in the mirror.
 
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"Just" a socialist eh? Where would we be if we weren't trying to be derogatory to people who don't have the same views as us... :messenger_weary:

In any case... As someone who believes many of the poor are themselves responsible for remaining that way, because they are more concerned with not looking poor rather than not being poor, no, I don't classify as a socialist. Once again, it's easy to demonize and label someone as some sort of monster rather than facing the facts. The psyop really worked well on you.
So you're not a socialist, you're just spouting socialist talking points,

Denial? Experiment? It's easy to say something failed when wanting to ignore the sabotage going on. Any country, whether socialist or capitalist, would succumb under the exact same circumstances. Here's an example of someone that actually gets the source of the problem.
https://barbadosunderground.net/2018/09/05/suppose-barbados-was-venezuela/
This is exactly what I'm talking about. These sanctions are not why the Venezuelan economy is doing as poorly as it's doing.

What year did the crisis start Ascend?

I have provided plenty of independent resources showing another perspective. You're either interested in exploring the truth, or you're not, in which case you'd prefer to repeat the same drivel spouted by the mainstream propaganda machine.


What "crap" am I defending. Until now, I've clearly provided sources and logical reasoning for everything stated. So if you could be more specific, and actually give rebuttals rather than scorn, that would be great.


Indeed. A lot of gymnastics are required to deny the blatant lies by the media. If even after the reports of the tienditas bridge, you still don't get it, I'm not the one in denial. Let me post another link and quote a few things.

Indeed, as Bevins also noted, the Red Cross has long been working with local authorities inside Venezuela to deliver relief, and just last week doubled its budget to do so. We have ample evidence the Maduro government is more than willing to work with international aid when it’s offered in good faith, not when it’s a thinly veiled mechanism to spur civil war and contrive PR victories for those seeking to overthrow the government. It’s not just Maduro—as the Western media are presenting it—who opposes the US aid convoy; it’s the UN and Red Cross. Why do none of the above reports note this rather key piece of information, instead giving the reader the impression it’s only the stance of a sadistic, power-hungry madman?
------------------------
It’s true the Venezuelan government appears to have placed an oil tanker and cargo containers on the bridge to prevent incursion from the Colombian side, but the other barriers, as writer and software developer Jason Emery noted, have been in place since at least 2016. According to La Opinion (2/5/16), after its initial construction in 2015, the bridge has never been open to traffic. How can Maduro, as the BBC suggested, “reopen” a bridge that was never open?
The reality is BBC and other Western media were just going along with the narrative pushed by Sen. Marco Rubio and Trump Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, not bothering to check if their primary visual narrative was based on a bad faith, context-free PR stunt.
------------------------
(3) The Venezuelan government has an entirely rational reason to suspect the US would use humanitarian aid as a cover to smuggle in weapons to foment armed conflict: The person running quarterback for Trump on the current Venezuela operation, Elliot Abrams, literally did just that 30 years ago.
It’s literally the exact same person in charge of the operation who we know—with 100 percent certainty, because he admitted to it—has a history of using aid convoys as a cover to smuggle in arms to right-wing militias.



Yet another independent source...
https://fair.org/home/western-media...Rm-pPsCUfbETGp0_bqOrx3Cq0-_8jpdzg5Y_mEBpGs4Is

You've posted excuse after excuse after excuse for Maduro and his current government, even directly linking state propaganda onto this board. You aren't fooling anyone, except maybe yourself. I trust the Venezuelans more than the UN, who have had a long history of turning a blind eye to the shit going down in Latin America.

Be careful what you accuse others of being. Take a long hard look in the mirror.
This coming from the poster who tells us to watch videos and "pick out whose starving guys, it's all fake. Everyone is doing great. Venezuela is doing fine." The arrogance is something else.
 
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Red Cross, UN Slam Denounce Use of ‘Politicized’ Humanitarian Aid to Venezuela

Some relevant parts;

The International Red Cross has declined to participate in Washington’s controversial humanitarian aid plan to Venezuela, it was announced this weekend.

“We will not be participating in what is, for us, not humanitarian aid,” stated Colombia’s International Red Cross (ICRC) spokesperson, Christoph Harnisch.
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The Red Cross currently provides medical assistance to a number of Venezuelan hospitals under pre-existing and recently expanded international agreements with Maduro’s government.

On Wednesday, ICRC President Peter Maurer told reporters that the body will be doubling its budget to assist the Venezuelan government in countering the effects of the deep economic crisis.

“Our focus is really to, on the one side increase our response to Venezuelans, and on the other hand to keep away from the political controversy and political divisions which are characteristic to the crisis in Venezuela,” Maurer told press in Geneva.

Meanwhile, the United Nations has likewise raised objections to Washington’s “politicised” aid plan.

“Humanitarian action needs to be independent of political, military or other objectives,” UN spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters in New York last Wednesday.

UN spokespeople have also recently vowed to increase the budgets of current aid programs carried out in coordination with the Maduro administration.

[Maduro] also pointed out that the reported $20 million in US aid pales in comparison to the estimated US $30 million per day the new US oil embargo will cost Venezuela this year. On January 28, US National Security Advisor John Bolton unveiled the latest round of economic sanctions prohibiting corporations under US jurisdiction from purchasing oil from Venezuela’s PDVSA state oil company, which he said will deny the company US $11 billion in revenues in 2019. Bolton also announced a freezing of Houston-based PDVSA subsidiary CITGO’s assets, which are valued at US $7 billion.

“If [the US] wants to help, then lift the sanctions,” Maduro urged at a recent press conference. He also qualified the plan as a media “show” and a “trap” which looks to “justify [foreign] intervention in the country.”


Did the mainstream media tell you about the Red Cross and the UN?
 
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"news of the day" This newspaper bit is a clip from a telesur doumentary released from 2 years ago.

Abby Martin is a literal Maduro mouthpiece. This is the same woman who partially blamed bitcoin for the economy crashing years back as well(before Maduro created the petro coin, then she flipped her tune)
She definitely is but that doesn't make that tweet any less accurate and truthful. US really shouldn't push the "we have to intervene bc ppl are starving" while at the same time being allies with Saudi Arabia and supplying them with weaponry to bomb the fuck outta Yemen.
 
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A huge part of Venezuelans don't want US intervention;


In contrast, look at the ones that do want it. Notice how they are so much younger... And even then, a few mention they want help but not an intervention...