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It's June. Why have we not heard anything about the PS5's M.2 expansion slot yet?

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GuinGuin

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I own a PS5. It is not whisper quiet, but it is much better than my PS4 pro jet engine. Didn't Sony say they would have to unlock fan speeds once they allow secondary SSDs? I'm pretty sure I read that a few months back and it would be even louder at that point.

How delusional do you have to be to assume someone else's whole world view based on a single comment. Update your bias.

You might want to use your warranty. I can't hear mine at all.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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I really am pretty convinced it's just them working on firmware.

It's possible an 8 channel drive just isn't going to work.. but that would be quite the miscalculation by Sony. And considering they were likely working w/ a partner like Samsung on their controller.. I just don't see that as likely.

They have a massive bay there, they can make their own version at 825GB. This time you'll have like 820-815GB instead of 677GB internally. I think the bay can swallow even longer NVMe m.2 SSD's, potentially their own.
 
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S0ULZB0URNE

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Did you even open the link? It's either Mark Cerny is right, or you are. I would lean towards Mark Cerny. The internal flash controller has one mission: Dealing with the internal SSD, period.

The I/O will help the external SSD, not the flash controller.
What? No SSD would anywhere close to fast enough if running through the USB port.
 

IntentionalPun

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I guess it's also possible Sony miscalculated just how hot 8 channel PCIE 4.0 drives were going to get.. w/in the space limitations of what a heatsink would fit in the PS5.

BUT.. I really do think this is just a firmware issue lol

They'd have had access to early versions of drives like the 980 pro from Samsung.

They do get hot though.. and the PS5 is going to have to increase fan speeds.. not particularly ideal.
 

IntentionalPun

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They have a massive bay there, they can make their own version at 825GB. This time you'll have like 820-815GB instead of 677GB internally. I think the bay can swallow even longer NVMe m.2 SSD's, potentially their own.
Yeah they could.

And others could also make a drive w/ a specific PS5 configuration. They wouldn't have to license anything and they'd probably get support from Sony. The question would be; how marketable are they at the price they'd have to be?

My guess is the 12 channel drive that is a slower speed per channel is quite a bit cooler than the higher speed 8 channel drives out there.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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What? No SSD would anywhere close to fast enough if running through the USB port.

Mate, you're mixing between my replies. That reply was for fast cold storage, as some are bringing a sloth speed of HDD instead of talking about other alternatives. SATA can transfer 30GB/min through USB 3.2 Gen2, and external m.2 adapter with NVMe SSD can saturate 1.25GB/s of the USB (=10Gbps), which is 75GB/min.

That's the "cold storage only" discussion.
 
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Corndog

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I have a 4TB usb drive attached to my PS5 and holds more games than what I can play, both myself and my kids. And I still have several over 2.5 TB of space left on the external drive. Why would I need 2 external drives?
Maybe people own several smaller drives and would rather not have to buy another larger drive. Not everyone is you.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Maybe people own several smaller drives and would rather not have to buy another larger drive. Not everyone is you.

Same with people with Xbox as well, not everyone gonna buy the $220 external 1TB SSD, right? We're here talking about solutions and alternatives. I won't buy any extension even if available because internet speed is good enough to download any game again, which rarely happens.

Yeah they could.

And others could also make a drive w/ a specific PS5 configuration. They wouldn't have to license anything and they'd probably get support from Sony. The question would be; how marketable are they at the price they'd have to be?

My guess is the 12 channel drive that is a slower speed per channel is quite a bit cooler than the higher speed 8 channel drives out there.

I think if they just make it as cold storage and someone would use even cheap PCIe 3.0 SSD's and keep it inside would also be a good solution, I guess.
 
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jonnyp

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Well if the PS5's is 5.5gbps, and the Gen4s hit 7, then those are faster and would work.

It's also about latency and levels of priority, but yes I find it strange that for instance the WD Black SN850 is not certified.
 
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IntentionalPun

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It's also about latency and levels of priority, but yes I find it strange that for instance the WD Black SN850 is not certified.
All nvme SSDs have microseconds of latency..

The issue is likely just Sony creating firmware. As I've been saying in this thread, there aren't faster PCIE 4.0 drives coming, and their aren't going to be drives w/ built in controllers with more priority levels as that's outside the PCIE 4.0 spec. Sony's plan is/was to use their onboard controller and either bypass or piggyback on top of the flash controllers on the off the shelf drives.. which are perfectly well suited for meeting the PCIE 4.0 spec, but aren't built for PS5.
 
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DenchDeckard

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I've literally just had to uninstall demons souls, spiderman, last of us 2 and some ps plus games to fit returnal and ff7. Absolute shite I tell you.

Also, where's vrr?
 
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IntentionalPun

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What's gonna be super interesting is that it's quite possible a PCIE 4.0 drive that can hit ~7GB / second read will actually outdo the PS5 drive.

Part of me hopes they don't lol.. because then I'd be tempted to get a big expensive one and install all of my games on it.
 
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DenchDeckard

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Also, if I'm required to have ff7 installed on ps4 to install the ps5 version I'm both fucked and gonna be absolutely pissed
 

IntentionalPun

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When Sony's TVs get it, then the PS5 will.

That would be kind of lame; I wouldn't guess these 2 things are related. Different parts of the company, different parts of the "how VRR works" architecture.
 

Jaysen

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Who cares, I have no need for an internal M.2 drive at the moment.
You so stooopid. I just deleted Returnal because I don’t have room for Ratchet, and all my games on my hd except one are PS5. Sony failed, and I’m guessing it’s because they can’t manage the heat properly when one of the drives is installed.
 
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ManaByte

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You so stooopid. I just deleted Returnal because I don’t have room for Ratchet, and all my games on my hd except one are PS5. Sony failed, and I’m guessing it’s because they can’t manage the heat properly when one of the drives is installed.
Star Trek Whatever GIF
 
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IntentionalPun

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No Sony TVs have VRR yet? Wow.

Lots of TVs got it in 2020 and now 2021. Even TCL and Hisense have a model with VRR.

Variable Refresh Rate - RTINGS.com
Yeah they've been a bit late on it. I think their first VRR TV came out last summer w/ a promise of firmware.

Their TVs coming out this year have the same promise.

It's a little odd.. but there aren't exactly a ton of uses of VRR at this point.

Of course PS5 could be one of the biggest use cases if they supported it lol
 
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Thank you, how you extract that? I usually put the CC on and screenshot. As you can see, the internal controller has nothing to help here, which has 6 priority levels. The I/O will need that speed overhead (sustained) to overcome those shortcomings.
Can you point me to something explaining priority levels. Swear to god there is nothing on the internet.
 
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FranXico

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Knowing Sony, they might be trying to figure out a way to charge royalties to third parties.
The problem is, you can't support a hardware interface, then go and block compatible peripherals just because. It's stupid.

Hasn't been a major inconvenience for me yet. Yet.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Can you point me to something explaining priority levels. Swear to god there is nothing on the internet.

Easy, from the lion's mouth, only few seconds will make you understand but it's making 6 unique orders at the same time instead of only 2 in PC NVMe m.2:

Timestamped




Text:

14:56
the SSD was designed for smooth and
14:58
bottleneck free operation but also with
15:01
games in mind for example there are six
15:03
levels of priority when reading from the
15:04
SSD priority is very important you can
15:07
imagine the player heading into some new
15:09
location in the world and the game
15:11
requesting a few gigabytes of textures
15:13
and while those textures are being
15:15
loaded an enemy is shot and has to speak
15:18
a few dying words having multiple
15:21
priority levels let's the audio for
15:23
those dying words get loaded immediately
------

And about PC NVMe m.2 in comparison:

22:12
and so on for example the nvme
22:15
specification lays out a priority scheme
22:17
for requests that the m2 drives can use
22:19
and that scheme is pretty nice but it
22:23
only has two true priority levels our
22:26
drive supports six we can hook up a
22:29
drive with only two priority levels
22:31
definitely but our custom IO unit has to
22:33
arbitrate the extra priorities rather
22:35
than the m2 drives flash controller and
22:37
so the m2 drive needs a little extra
22:39
speed to take care of issues arising

This solves lip sync problems and other latency sensitive orders and could solve many glitches as well.

IntentionalPun IntentionalPun you think their software is meant to override the NVMe m.2 SSD's flash controller to make those 6 priority levels? That's kinda how I understand it.
 
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Neo Blaster

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Such drives will be quite expensive due to speed requirements, just take a look at the cost for the expansion drive for XSX, nearly half the console's price. I'd rather invest on an external drive and use it for cold storage.
 
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Easy, from the lion's mouth, only few seconds will make you understand but it's making 6 unique orders at the same time instead of only 2 in PC NVMe m.2:

Timestamped




Text:

14:56
the SSD was designed for smooth and
14:58
bottleneck free operation but also with
15:01
games in mind for example there are six
15:03
levels of priority when reading from the
15:04
SSD priority is very important you can
15:07
imagine the player heading into some new
15:09
location in the world and the game
15:11
requesting a few gigabytes of textures
15:13
and while those textures are being
15:15
loaded an enemy is shot and has to speak
15:18
a few dying words having multiple
15:21
priority levels let's the audio for
15:23
those dying words get loaded immediately
------

And about PC NVMe m.2 in comparison:

22:12
and so on for example the nvme
22:15
specification lays out a priority scheme
22:17
for requests that the m2 drives can use
22:19
and that scheme is pretty nice but it
22:23
only has two true priority levels our
22:26
drive supports six we can hook up a
22:29
drive with only two priority levels
22:31
definitely but our custom IO unit has to
22:33
arbitrate the extra priorities rather
22:35
than the m2 drives flash controller and
22:37
so the m2 drive needs a little extra
22:39
speed to take care of issues arising

This solves lip sync problems and other latency sensitive orders and could solve many glitches as well.

IntentionalPun IntentionalPun you think their software is meant to override the NVMe m.2 SSD's flash controller to make those 6 priority levels? That's kinda how I understand it.
Nvme is literally a 100,000,000 times better at ques than sata. Isn't that enough?
 
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SpokkX

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It just seems absolutely ridiculous that they wouldn't have caught this issue before release. Maybe the expansion slot was added very late in the design process as they realized that 667GB (or whatever it is) wouldn't cut it (maybe they were hoping to make the internal SSD larger but couldn't), and they didn't have time to redesign the cooling etc to properly handle it. Still absurd, but who knows.

yeah i figure something like this happened

overall the ps5 seemed quite rushed

i mean just that console size - that could hardly have been planned from the beginning. They clearly made some last minute changes, perhaps the m2 slot was not quite as well thought out (because there us CLEARLY some sort if issue here - just mentioning that fan speed needs boosting is just an insane oversight)
 
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IntentionalPun

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IntentionalPun IntentionalPun you think their software is meant to override the NVMe m.2 SSD's flash controller to make those 6 priority levels? That's kinda how I understand it.

I can only guess as I wouldn't really know..

But my guess is that it just manages a queue on top of the SSD's own 2 priority flash controller. Has to be fast enough to guarantee that the files you queue get there within the time it would take to get there on a 12 channel drive where you could assign more priority levels.

It's not a speed issue.. it's plenty fast enough to deliver a group of files in a given time, it's a matter of not being able to be as fine grained as to which files get there faster and which don't.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Nvme is literally a 100,000,000 times better at ques than sata. Isn't that enough?

Not sure, but we're most likely talking about milliseconds here. Imagine you have 7GB/s = 7MB/ms, you have a file that is maybe 1MB/ms for audio, and another 1MB/ms for textures. You have used only 2 out of 7MB/ms here, but you can't make any new orders at the same time. Then you can make like 1MB/ms orders like for 6 different stuff without the need of waiting in queue, even if that was ms it can accumulate to input lag, lip sync, texture glitching or interruption or any latency-sensitive data.

Of course, most of this is out of my ass but trying to simplify it.
 
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dvdvideo

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That's literally how it's worked since the PlayStation 2.

In a world where people can barely hook up an hdmi cable themselves do you really think this is the best solution for a mainstream consumer electronics device?
 
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I own a PS5. It is not whisper quiet, but it is much better than my PS4 pro jet engine. Didn't Sony say they would have to unlock fan speeds once they allow secondary SSDs? I'm pretty sure I read that a few months back and it would be even louder at that point.

How delusional do you have to be to assume someone else's whole world view based on a single comment. Update your bias.
Jokes aside if you deem your ps5 to be loud best to get it checked under warranty. I can stick my head right up next to mine and its practically silent. Mine is kept horizontal, shouldn't make a difference but it might.
 
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The 2020 and 2021 models are supposed to get a firmware update for it.
I wouldn't hold my breath for a speedy update. How long did it take Sony to update there tv's back in 2018 - 19 with a firmware update to play Dolby Vision via a streaming app and a 4k Blu Ray player, twelve to eighteen months if I remember correctly. Makes me appreciate how snappy LG are at fixing bugs and firmware updates
 
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01011001

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I've never had that happen to me and I work with ESD. Pretty sure NVMEs are a lot less sensitive than the devices that I work with.

yeah, it has been shown time and time again that modern tech is extremely resistant against stuff like that. there's a whole crossover video from LinusSexTips and ElectroBOOM where they go to the absolute extremes and literally shock ram sticks and other stuff in order to kill them, and they REALLY had to try to do it.





this also made me think about this treasure of a video again xD

 
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RoadHazard

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Jokes aside if you deem your ps5 to be loud best to get it checked under warranty. I can stick my head right up next to mine and its practically silent. Mine is kept horizontal, shouldn't make a difference but it might.

Many PS5s (maybe even most) have either fan noise (there are three different fans used, and some are noisier than others) or coil whine. Mine has the latter, and while it's not loud (it's not noticeable when a game is making noise) there's always a buzzing sound at all times (more or less so depending on what is being rendered). If I mute the game I can hear it from several meters away. My fan is very quiet, but not absolutely silent. No fan is.

If you got lucky and got one without any of these issues, congrats. But they are common issues, and I've read so many accounts of people sending their consoles to Sony only to get them back no different. Basically, Sony considers this (at least the coil whine) "normal", just like GPU manufacturers do.
 
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yeah, it has been shown time and time again that modern tech is extremely resistant against stuff like that. there's a whole crossover video from LinusSexTips and ElectroBOOM where they go to the absolute extremes and literally shock ram sticks and other stuff in order to kill them, and they REALLY had to try to do it.


The devices that I work with are highly sensitive. That's why I have to use a specialized ESD station to work with them. And if I have to do any M2 repair it's even worse. But it's also true that some of the equipment that I work on is extremely old.

Modern PC parts are a lot less sensitive and I doubt the PS5 is going to run into a RROD like situation due to people frying the NVMEs.

Well there's always the idiot that will mess with the system while it's on but that's not your average consumer.

Thanks for the video BTW.
 
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