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It's June. Why have we not heard anything about the PS5's M.2 expansion slot yet?

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DarkMage619

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Of course I can't actually know how many are affected, but I'm absolutely certain it's more than "a few vocal people". That's easy to tell just by looking around the interwebs. This isn't something only a few super critical nerds are complaining about, it's definitely widespread.

And coil whine isn't a defect, it's a natural characteristic of electronic devices like this. High end PC GPUs very commonly have it. There are things that can be done to minimize it, which unfortunately Sony hasn't done (while MS has, so you don't hear about this issue with the XSX).
Also if someone puts their system behind the TV or in a cabinet or if you wear headphones the PS5 is now silent. Not everyone has their console right in front of them. I wish Sony had taken the same care as MS to dampen their noise the power supply makes but it is what it is. I don't see them addressing it any time soon sadly.
 

lh032

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its ok for me, I have an external SSD for ps4, i dont play COD, so there is still 200-300 gb space on my PS5.
 

Black_Stride

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So I assume it must be key to fit the specs to make sure they achieve that.

He also said that when available they will have some support webpage with a compatibility list mentioning the SSDs models they verified that work properly there.

And no, most SSDs that have been in the market for years (or are today) aren't ~6.5GB/s. Only a few are.

As I said there will never be consumer grade 6 priority SSDs that are E18 level.

When he said they would need to be faster he meant they would need to saturate PCIE4.

As in reach 6 - 7GB/s....during his talk most drives were 4 - 5GB/s.
We have now reached the point where PCIE4 is on its last legs, controllers have all but maxed it out and SSD makers are starting production on PCIE5 controllers which need to be ready by the time Alderlake shows up at the end of the year.

And to your last sentence:
When did I say most SSDs that have been in the market for years (or are today) aren't ~6.5GB/s.
 
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RoadHazard

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Also if someone puts their system behind the TV or in a cabinet or if you wear headphones the PS5 is now silent. Not everyone has their console right in front of them. I wish Sony had taken the same care as MS to dampen their noise the power supply makes but it is what it is. I don't see them addressing it any time soon sadly.

Yeah, I can super easily block out or overpower any noise my PS5 makes, doesn't take much at all, but that doesn't mean it's actually silent.

Sometimes I wonder if certain people even know what the word "silent" means. "I can't hear a thing from my PS5 over the game audio" does not mean it's silent, it just means you can't hear it. Not saying I don't believe there are PS5s that actually are more quiet than mine (and ones that are louder - I really only have the PSU buzz, no annoying "UFO" fan noise or anything), but I don't believe there is a PS5 on the planet that is actually SILENT.
 
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IntentionalPun

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Oof. Update your material. That's a last gen console warrior jab. The giant fan in the PS5 is whisper quiet. It will never get louder because regardless of how hard devs push the hardware the energy profile is always the same and the fan therefore never has to speed up to compensate. This has been known for a year. Additionally you can presume that the internal SSD will be cooler as it isn't being used at the same time as the expansion SSD so no additional heat will be generated.

This is all so wrong.

Sone games will definitely run hotter than others as they’ll stress the GPU, CPU and drive for various amounts of time. A game that runs the GPU at max 90% of the time will cause higher temperatures than one that only has 50% utilization.

Sony even detailed in an interview how they plan to change fan speeds for games to optimize them over time:


Beyond that people have different ambient room temperatures as well, so the air being pulled in is different temperatures.

Don’t know what you are trying to say about the internal being cooler. That’s the point, these 6-7GB a second drives run hot, so if they are in use, and run hotter than the internal, and are situated right near an intake vent, they’ll hear the air coming into the system.

There are all kinds of scenarios where the PS5 will increase it’s fan speeds.
 

kuncol02

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Yeah they've been a bit late on it. I think their first VRR TV came out last summer w/ a promise of firmware.

Their TVs coming out this year have the same promise.

It's a little odd.. but there aren't exactly a ton of uses of VRR at this point.

Of course PS5 could be one of the biggest use cases if they supported it lol
And Sony promissed that PS4 will get 4k 30fps mode in patch. We are still waiting.
 
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GuinGuin

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This is all so wrong.

Sone games will definitely run hotter than others as they’ll stress the GPU, CPU and drive for various amounts of time. A game that runs the GPU at max 90% of the time will cause higher temperatures than one that only has 50% utilization.

Sony even detailed in an interview how they plan to change fan speeds for games to optimize them over time:


Beyond that people have different ambient room temperatures as well, so the air being pulled in is different temperatures.

Don’t know what you are trying to say about the internal being cooler. That’s the point, these 6-7GB a second drives run hot, so if they are in use, and run hotter than the internal, and are situated right near an intake vent, they’ll hear the air coming into the system.

There are all kinds of scenarios where the PS5 will increase it’s fan speeds.

You're wrong on all counts. The PS5 fan speed is determined not by how hot the components are but by the intensity of workload calculated in software. Therefore ambient temperature is irrelevant. Nearly every game is already pushing the GPU to its limits otherwise you wouldn't see things like dynamic resolution.
 
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You're wrong on all counts. The PS5 fan speed is determined not by how hot the components are but by the intensity of workload calculated in software. Therefore ambient temperature is irrelevant. Nearly every game is already pushing the GPU to its limits otherwise you wouldn't see things like dynamic resolution.
That would be stupid and I can't imagine that is the case when there are such huge variances in ambient temperature depending on where you are in the world- the clocks are probably fixed but I can't imagine for one second that the fan speed is.

The Sony engineer that did the first teardown said this:

 

GuinGuin

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That would be stupid and I can't imagine that is the case when there are such huge variances in ambient temperature depending on where you are in the world- the clocks are probably fixed but I can't imagine for one second that the fan speed is.

The Sony engineer that did the first teardown said this:


You're still not getting it. They do that during testing and then use those values for the games through software to control the fan. Fan speed is not determined locally. That was the whole point of the design.
 

DenchDeckard

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I really dont want to go out and buy an external SSD for PS4 games. I'd rather just fork out and graba 1TB or 2TB NVME and pout it all on that. Gonna cost a fortune for sure though I imagine :/

FIngers crossed its soon, I've already had to start micro managing my PS5 and I only use it for exclusives.
 
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Black_Stride

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You're still not getting it. They do that during testing and then use those values for the games through software to control the fan. Fan speed is not determined locally. That was the whole point of the design.

So if you put the PS5 in an oven thats already within say 20 degrees c of its tjmax, it will never bother ramping up the fan to protect itself?
 

Inviusx

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There are features printed on the PS5 box that haven't even been released yet. And where the hell is VRR support?

Sony has completely dropped the ball in terms OS support.
 
Sep 22, 2020
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You're still not getting it. They do that during testing and then use those values for the games through software to control the fan. Fan speed is not determined locally. That was the whole point of the design.
There is no chance that is the case. I would bet it just has different fan curves for different games which is sensible but nothing unique.

So if someone lives in Greenland where it's 10deg C in summer the fan would spin the same speed as someone in Kuwait where it's 45 deg C? That is horrible design if so as either the one in Kuwait is going to overheat or the one in Greenland is spinning the fan up for no good reason.
 
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I really dont want to go out and buy an external SSD for PS4 games. I'd rather just fork out and graba 1TB or 2TB NVME and pout it all on that. Gonna cost a fortune for sure though I imagine :/

FIngers crossed its soon, I've already had to start micro managing my PS5 and I only use it for exclusives.
yup.

a PS5 here is meant to be £450.

a 1TB NVME SSD cost about £150-200 (33-44% cost of a PS5)

and a 2TB = about £300-400 (66-88% cost of a PS5)

side note: PC SSDs are now faster than what is in PS5 lol. PS5 internal drive is 5.5GB/s. you can get a drive that does 7.1GB/s on PC.
 
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Corndog

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Oof. Update your material. That's a last gen console warrior jab. The giant fan in the PS5 is whisper quiet. It will never get louder because regardless of how hard devs push the hardware the energy profile is always the same and the fan therefore never has to speed up to compensate. This has been known for a year. Additionally you can presume that the internal SSD will be cooler as it isn't being used at the same time as the expansion SSD so no additional heat will be generated.
So I guess the ambient room temperature will have no bearing on this miraculous fan?
 

GuinGuin

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There is no chance that is the case. I would bet it just has different fan curves for different games which is sensible but nothing unique.

So if someone lives in Greenland where it's 10deg C in summer the fan would spin the same speed as someone in Kuwait where it's 45 deg C? That is horrible design if so as either the one in Kuwait is going to overheat or the one in Greenland is spinning the fan up for no good reason.

If you are using your console without AC no wonder your console is overheating. It says right in the manual you shouldn't be operating it above normal room temperature. I've never had a console fail on me because I use AC, don't put my console in tight spaces or on the carpet, don't smoke and don't have a cat.
 
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kuncol02

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Oof. Update your material. That's a last gen console warrior jab. The giant fan in the PS5 is whisper quiet. It will never get louder because regardless of how hard devs push the hardware the energy profile is always the same and the fan therefore never has to speed up to compensate. This has been known for a year. Additionally you can presume that the internal SSD will be cooler as it isn't being used at the same time as the expansion SSD so no additional heat will be generated.
Sony magically broke thermodynamic laws?
 

Corndog

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You're wrong on all counts. The PS5 fan speed is determined not by how hot the components are but by the intensity of workload calculated in software. Therefore ambient temperature is irrelevant. Nearly every game is already pushing the GPU to its limits otherwise you wouldn't see things like dynamic resolution.
More workload means more heat. Is that hard to understand. Plus they also have to take ambient temp into account. If they don’t you will see plenty of overheating ps5s this summer.

edit: I should use one of these miraculous Sony fans to cool my house. It will work no matter the temperature. What a missed opportunity by Sony.
 
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ZywyPL

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yup.

a PS5 here is meant to be £450.

a 1TB NVME SSD cost about £150-200 (33-44% cost of a PS5)

and a 2TB = about £300-400 (66-88% cost of a PS5)

side note: PC SSDs are now faster than what is in PS5 lol. PS5 internal drive is 5.5GB/s. you can get a drive that does 7.1GB/s on PC.


That's still a MUCH better situation than when the PS4 hit the market, where SATA SSDs cost more than the console itself (500$ and more).
 
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Black_Stride

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You're still not getting it. They do that during testing and then use those values for the games through software to control the fan. Fan speed is not determined locally. That was the whole point of the design.
Fan speeds are predetermined and have a maximum speed set in software. Not that hard to understand.
Yasuhiro Ootori is the thermal design engineer of the PS5 fyi.

Ootori also notes that there are three temperature sensors on the console's mainboard and another sensor within the APU itself. All of the above will be used to control the fan speed, based on the "internal temperature of the APU and the highest temperature of the three temperature sensors."
 

Black_Stride

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If you're not using AC of course your console will overheat...
Yasuhiro Ootori is the thermal design engineer of the PS5 fyi.

Ootori also notes that there are three temperature sensors on the console's mainboard and another sensor within the APU itself. All of the above will be used to control the fan speed, based on the "internal temperature of the APU and the highest temperature of the three temperature sensors."
 

Vognerful

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I think they will be here soon. Maybe they want to announce several models at once so that you don't end up with monopoly (XSX situation) and higher prices.

What I would wish they do is give a list of what specs would be enough for the games that released last year and those will release by early 2022. So then you can have the choice to either upgrade now or wait for better specs later.

As per Bo Hazem thread earlier, you do actually save good amount of space due to compression.
 
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ZywyPL

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I think they will be here soon. Maybe they want to announce several models at once so that you don't end up with monopoly (XSX situation) and higher prices.

That would look indeed good if they came out like "here's the promised update, and here's the list of all compatible drives" with like a dozen of models instead of just 2 or 3, which would make people question what they've been doing all that time.
 
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GHG

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You are being way dramatic here.

All that was suggested was that Sony could ALSO make their own drive and sell it. Nobody is suggesting removing the ability to support 3rd party drives.

And you are completely misusing “proprietary” here. It literally means a company owns and controls a technology. Licensed hardware IS proprietary.

Im suggesting the opposite of that; none of this is proprietary it’s just a configuration of an NVME drive that people could offer. They might even be able to get them to work fine on PCs.

The bold is quite simply not true.


What's proprietary about a 3.5mm jack headset?

If they offer a configuration of nvme that only works on the PS5 then by definition that is proprietary. If it also works on PC then it would be a standard interface nvme that happens to be licensed. There is a difference.

Sony don't make their own nvme drives so therefore they would be reliant on a third party manufacturer having a standard drive ready that they can slap a license on. That might well still happen.
 
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RoadHazard

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yup.

a PS5 here is meant to be £450.

a 1TB NVME SSD cost about £150-200 (33-44% cost of a PS5)

and a 2TB = about £300-400 (66-88% cost of a PS5)

side note: PC SSDs are now faster than what is in PS5 lol. PS5 internal drive is 5.5GB/s. you can get a drive that does 7.1GB/s on PC.

There are PC SSDs that are technically faster, yes, but you cannot today build a PC that can actually do 5.5GB/s (or more if you count the hardware decompression the PS5 does) all the way from storage to VRAM with no bottlenecks and minimal latency. PS5 has custom I/O hardware specifically to be able to do this.
 
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FritzJ92

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There are PC SSDs that are technically faster, yes, but you cannot today build a PC that can actually do 5.5GB/s (or more if you count the hardware decompression the PS5 does) all the way from storage to VRAM with no bottlenecks and minimal latency. PS5 has custom I/O hardware specifically to be able to do this.
But the SSDs are still technically faster.
 
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Black_Stride

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There are PC SSDs that are technically faster, yes, but you cannot today build a PC that can actually do 5.5GB/s (or more if you count the hardware decompression the PS5 does) all the way from storage to VRAM with no bottlenecks and minimal latency. PS5 has custom I/O hardware specifically to be able to do this.

How would you measure the speed from SSD to VRAM?
 

mitchman

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i think I’ve seen people say there’s no cooling solution for that drive spot im guessing it’s just been overheating
It's cooled by the main fan through gaps leading into the slow, but the fan might need to spin a bit faster when a drive is present and they probably need extensive testing to ensure it won't overheat with the drives that are fast enough.
 

kyliethicc

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Even the fastest Gen4 M.2 drives available right now, like the WD SN850, only hit around 6 GB/s read speeds in real world testing.

There's a chance that the PS5 requires faster than 6 GB/s raw reads for it to work. Who knows.
 

Black_Stride

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What do you mean?

You said "There are PC SSDs that are technically faster, yes, but you cannot today build a PC that can actually do 5.5GB/s all the way from storage to VRAM with no bottlenecks and minimal latency."
Thats to say even a 7GB/s drive counting bottlenecks and latency would still be slower than 5.5GB/s....so im asking how would measure that a 7GB/s drive with whatever inefficiencies you are adding CANT actually do 5.5GB/s.

Isnt the whole reason Cerny and Sony needed a higher speed SSD to make up for those inefficiencies as so to attain the 5.5GB/s minimum?

Further, saying there is no drive that can do 5.5GB/s from storage to VRAM would mean you have some way to measure that the drive ISNT doing 5.5GB/s from storage to VRAM right.
So how would we measure that?
 
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Surely less options is better than the current zero options??

If it leads to inflated drive prices for the rest of the generation having that option would be bad for consumers. Waiting a year for having multiple options added from different manufacturers and varying price points is better for consumers. Once the update comes out instead of being stuck with one incredibly expensive option you will be left with multiple cheaper ones. Which is better for ones wallet in the end.

There's always such a thing as good and worse options.

Trying to justify a 220$ drive that's available in the PC market at ~100$ less isn't a good option.

Edit: To clarify my stance I only have issues with a proprietary Drive being the only option. If they released that first but still gave us the option to use the NVME slot with other drives I don't have an issue with that.
 
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Black_Stride

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Even the fastest Gen4 M.2 drives available right now, like the WD SN850, only hit around 6 GB/s read speeds in real world testing.

There's a chance that the PS5 requires faster than 6 GB/s raw reads for it to work. Who knows.

If thats true....I think the slot is going to be empty or used for nothing but cold storage for a very very very very long time.
Drive manufacturers are already looking towards PCIE5.
Alderlake is this year, so chances of them developing even faster controllers this "late" in the lifecycle of a standard are slim.

You dont see many new PCIE3 controllers hitting the market, and even newer PCIE4 controllers are effectively efficiency updates that just run cooler not faster.
So if you prediction/concern is true Sony might have made a bad bet on hoping SSD manufacturers were gonna meet their high standards.

P.S: I highly doubt thats the case, im sure its just Sony getting the update ready, these drives and if we are lucky one more generation of PCIE4 controllers are all we are going to get.
I dont see Samsung working on a 990 Pro/Evo thats still PCIE4.
The 990 Pro/Evo is almost certainly going to be a PCIE5 drive.
 
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RoadHazard

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You said "There are PC SSDs that are technically faster, yes, but you cannot today build a PC that can actually do 5.5GB/s all the way from storage to VRAM with no bottlenecks and minimal latency."
Thats to say even a 7GB/s drive counting bottlenecks and latency would still be slower than 5.5GB/s....so im asking how would measure that a 7GB/s drive with whatever inefficiencies you are adding CANT actually do 5.5GB/s.

Isnt the whole reason Cerny and Sony needed a higher speed SSD to make up for those inefficiencies as so to attain the 5.5GB/s minimum?

Further, saying there is no drive that can do 5.5GB/s from storage to VRAM would mean you have some way to measure that the drive ISNT doing 5.5GB/s from storage to VRAM right.
So how would we measure that?

It's just a known fact about PC architecture, which is not optimized for data transfer from storage to video memory in the way PS5 is. There's just no optimized path for the data in the same way. There are also software issues that stand in the way. DirectStorage is supposed to solve this, but it will also require a compatible GPU. And even then, I don't know if that will be able to achieve as low latency from requesting some data until it's loaded. Will depend on your PC probably.
 

Black_Stride

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It's just a known fact about PC architecture, which is not optimized for data transfer from storage to video memory in the way PS5 is. There's just no optimized path for the data in the same way. There are also software issues that stand in the way. DirectStorage is supposed to solve this, but it will also require a compatible GPU. And even then, I don't know if that will be able to achieve as low latency from requesting some data until it's loaded. Will depend on your PC probably.
Im not disputing the ineffeciencies...im asking do you know the actual speed a 7GB/s drive achieves from Storage to VRAM.

Isnt it possible....counting all those inefficiencies that a 7GB/s drive attains 5.5GB/s?

Or do you think 7GB/s drives lose half or more of their bandwidth to inefficiency?
 

RoadHazard

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Im not disputing the ineffeciencies...im asking do you know the actual speed a 7GB/s drive achieves from Storage to VRAM.

Isnt it possible....counting all those inefficiencies that a 7GB/s drive attains 5.5GB/s?

Or do you think 7GB/s drives lose half or more of their bandwidth to inefficiency?

With DirectStorage and a compatible GPU (one with RTX I/O) it probably can (I don't know HOW efficient that protocol actually is). Without it, yeah, it will lose a ton of its potential bandwidth.
 

kyliethicc

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If thats true....I think the slot is going to be empty or used for nothing but cold storage for a very very very very long time.
Drive manufacturers are already looking towards PCIE5.
Alderlake is this year, so chances of them developing even faster controllers this "late" in the lifecycle of a standard are slim.

You dont see many new PCIE3 controllers hitting the market, and even newer PCIE4 controllers are effectively efficiency updates that just run cooler not faster.
So if you prediction/concern is true Sony might have made a bad bet on hoping SSD manufacturers were gonna meet their high standards.

P.S: I highly doubt thats the case, im sure its just Sony getting the update ready, these drives and if we are lucky one more generation of PCIE4 controllers are all we are going to get.
I dont see Samsung working on a 990 Pro/Evo thats still PCIE4.
The 990 Pro/Evo is almost certainly going to be a PCIE5 drive.
Nah.

1st - the PS5 will be able to use PCIe 5.0 drives. PCIe is backwards compatible. A Gen5 drive would just be Gen4 speeds if used in a PS5.

2nd - Gen4 M.2 SSDs just started coming out. There won't be Gen5 SSDs for years.

Look at Samsung M.2 NVMe SSDs:
The 950 was Gen3 and announced in 2015.
The 960 was Gen3 and announced in 2017.
The 970 was Gen3 and announced in 2018.
The 980 was Gen4 and announced in 2020.
So maybe Gen5 drives by 2025.

Intel have just launched their first ever CPUs that support PCIe 4.0. They won't be going to 5.0 many years.

And PCIe Gen3 drives will be all that is required for most multiplats going forward. The Xbox Series' SSD is slower than many Gen3x4 SSDs, so PC users won't even need Gen4x4 drives to play most games (except Sony 1st party games). So for many years, drive manufacturers will still want to make and sell lots of Gen3 and Gen4 drives. Especially since most PC users still only use SATA SSDs and HDDs.
 
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