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It's June. Why have we not heard anything about the PS5's M.2 expansion slot yet?

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Rocco Schiavone

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Even the fastest Gen4 M.2 drives available right now, like the WD SN850, only hit around 6 GB/s read speeds in real world testing.

There's a chance that the PS5 requires faster than 6 GB/s raw reads for it to work. Who knows.

Nope it hits 7gb read speeds.
 

Black_Stride

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With DirectStorage and a compatible GPU (one with RTX I/O) it probably can (I don't know HOW efficient that protocol actually is). Without it, yeah, it will lose a ton of its potential bandwidth.
Yes ive accepted the inefficiencies.
But are telling me a PCIE4 drive loses over a third of its bandwidth due to those inefficiencies?
A 7GB/s drive even with all the overhead will still maintain atleast 5.5GB/s.....and I say again atleast 5.5GB/s.
Its lost some of its throughput in the pipeline but theres no way it drops to 3 or 4GB/s.

The reason Cerny wanted max PCIE4 speeds is because of those inefficiencies and being able to cover them.
A 7GB/s drive even with all the inefficiencies will attain at the very least 5.5Gb/s
Nah.

1st - the PS5 will be able to use PCIe 5.0 drives. PCIe is backwards compatible. A Gen5 drive would just be Gen4 speeds if used in a PS5.

2nd - Gen4 M.2 SSDs just started coming out. There won't be Gen5 SSDs for years.

Look at Samsung M.2 NVMe SSDs:
The 950 was Gen3 and announced in 2015.
The 960 was Gen3 and announced in 2017.
The 970 was Gen3 and announced in 2018.
The 980 was Gen4 and announced in 2020.
So maybe Gen5 drives by 2025.

Intel have just launched their first ever CPUs that support PCIe 4.0. They won't be going to 5.0 many years.

And PCIe Gen3 drives will be all that is required for most multiplats going forward. The Xbox Series' SSD is slower than many Gen3x4 SSDs, so PC users won't even need Gen4x4 drives to play most games (except Sony 1st party games). So for many years, drive manufacturers will still want to make and sell lots of Gen3 and Gen4 drives. Especially since most PC users still only use SATA SSDs and HDDs.

Alder lake is coming out later this year.
PCIE4 was always a stop-gap implementation.
 
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Meanwhile, it isn't a dire priority: there is a solution and it works. It may not be elegant, but it's well functional.
...and slowly kills the internal SSD...which is soldered to the board and when it's dead will render the PS5 a very expensive brick. The *last* thing you want to be doing is wearing out the flash chips by swapping games out all the time. Writes on SSDs should ideally be kept to a minimum.
 

kyliethicc

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Yes ive accepted the inefficiencies.
But are telling me a PCIE4 drive loses over a third of its bandwidth due to those inefficiencies?
A 7GB/s drive even with all the overhead will still maintain atleast 5.5GB/s.....and I say again atleast 5.5GB/s.
Its lost some of its throughput in the pipeline but theres no way it drops to 3 or 4GB/s.

The reason Cerny wanted max PCIE4 speeds is because of those inefficiencies and being able to cover them.
A 7GB/s drive even with all the inefficiencies will attain at the very least 5.5Gb/s


Alder lake is coming out later this year.
PCIE4 was always a stop-gap implementation.
Cerny said they need more than 5.5 GB/s because the NVMe 1.3 specification only allows for 2 levels of priority, while the PS5's SSD has 6.

Cerny is also implying that the PS5 SSD is delivering 5.5 GB/s in real world perf.

The WD SN850 is advertised as 7 GB/s peak, but is consistent ~ 6 GB/s in real world.

The question remains if 6 GB/s in real world perf would be sufficiently fast for PS5 games.

And again, eventual PCIe Gen5 SSDs will work fine in PS5. Because many of those will be even faster than 7 GB/s, and thus perfect for PS5.
 

Crimson_Fate

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According to Cerney the reason the drive needs to be around 7 is because the third party drives only have 2 priority levels mapped . The PS5 uses 6 on the Custom sony SSD so Sony's IO controller needs to remap these 2 to the 6 it has and this remapping latency has to be compensated for by faster read speeds.

The other thing to note here is that the the Drive will not need to hit 7 it will need to sustain 7 . So this means it can't overheat or degrade much under constant load . I think Sony is being real careful about what drives it recommends, especially if they have encountered problems . They are likely customizing things like fan speed to compensate for the heat from different drives
 
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Black_Stride

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Cerny said they need more than 5.5 GB/s because the NVMe 1.3 specification only allows for 2 levels of priority, while the PS5's SSD has 6.

Cerny is also implying that the PS5 SSD is delivering 5.5 GB/s in real world perf.

The WD SN850 is advertised as 7 GB/s peak, but is consistent ~ 6 GB/s in real world.

The question remains if 6 GB/s in real world perf would be sufficiently fast for PS5 games.

And again, eventual PCIe Gen5 SSDs will work fine in PS5. Because many of those will be even faster than 7 GB/s, and thus perfect for PS5.

Yes the rated speed is the max. Ill concede to that.
Though I havent seen any evidence that the SN850 or Samsung 980 are hitting closer to 6GB/s than they are to hitting their actual rated max speeds.
Could you post a link to where you got that information.

And I will also concede that when PCIE5 controllers drop they would def def meet the mark as they will completely fill the throughput of PCIE4. Assuming little to no loss in throughput that would lock them to a max of approx 7.8GB/s.
If indeed only the PCIE5 SSDs truly meet the mark, the cost of expanding the storage of a PS5 would be more expensive than even the scam Series X expansion card.

Im sure....hell willing to make an Avatar bet(timed of course), the SN850 and 980Pro/Evo will make the mark its just that Sony havent got their update ready yet.

Remember the fastest PCIE3 controllers got to about 3.5GB/s peak of a possible 3.9GB/s that the standard allows.
I think at 7.4GB/s we have officially seen the fastest Gen4 SSDs.
 

kyliethicc

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Yes the rated speed is the max. Ill concede to that.
Though I havent seen any evidence that the SN850 or Samsung 980 are hitting closer to 6GB/s than they are to hitting their actual rated max speeds.
Could you post a link to where you got that information.

And I will also concede that when PCIE5 controllers drop they would def def meet the mark as they will completely fill the throughput of PCIE4. Assuming little to no loss in throughput that would lock them to a max of approx 7.8GB/s.
If indeed only the PCIE5 SSDs truly meet the mark, the cost of expanding the storage of a PS5 would be more expensive than even the scam Series X expansion card.

Im sure....hell willing to make an Avatar bet(timed of course), the SN850 and 980Pro/Evo will make the mark its just that Sony havent got their update ready yet.

Remember the fastest PCIE3 controllers got to about 3.5GB/s peak of a possible 3.9GB/s that the standard allows.
I think at 7.4GB/s we have officially seen the fastest Gen4 SSDs.

And I'm not betting or saying those drives won't be fast enough. I don't know if they will. Sony will tell us.

I'm sure Sony chose the approach they did because they are sure it will work. It'll be fine.

And I agree that Xbox are scamming their users. This is the NVMe SSD inside the Xbox Series S/X.


And it can be purchased for $55 or $110 for 500 GB and 1 TB models. Same 2.4 GB/s speeds and NVMe 1.3 spec as the internal drive, just 2280 form instead of 2230. Yet Microsoft are so "pro consumer" that they are forcing their users to pay $230 for a 1 TB. Thats $120 more than it should be given the speed and unusually short warranty of Seagate's card.
 
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GuinGuin

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What is this nonsense?

Why do you think these systems have fans and cooling?

If your ambient temps are high then the system will accommodate.

It's a fan not an AC unit. If your room is full of hot air it is only going to draw that hot air over the electronics. If you don't have AC don't buy a console you're just going to kill it.
 

llOswaldll

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It's a fan not an AC unit. If your room is full of hot air it is only going to draw that hot air over the electronics. If you don't have AC don't buy a console you're just going to kill it.
Nobody in the UK has AC and we're fine, alway have been.
 
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Black_Stride

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And I'm not betting or saying those drives won't be fast enough. I don't know if they will. Sony will tell us.

I'm sure Sony chose the approach they did because they are sure it will work. It'll be fine.

And I agree that Xbox are scamming their users. This is the NVMe SSD inside the Xbox Series S/X.


And it can be purchased for $55 or $110 for 500 GB and 1 TB models. Same 2.4 GB/s speeds and NVMe 1.3 spec as the internal drive, just 2280 form instead of 2230. Yet Microsoft are so "pro consumer" that they are forcing their users to pay $230 for a 1 TB. Thats $120 more than it should be given the speed and unusually short warranty of Seagate's card.

AS SSD is a weird benchmark because of how it runs sequential and random WITHOUT using the cache of the SSD.
Why would you be using your SSD without its cache?
Especially in a game console.....the PS5 while gaming isnt going to get out of cache for something like a 980 or SN850.
AS SSD is basically a worst case scenario test....not a real world test.
It would be akin to starting a GPU test when it is degrees away from throttle point.




 
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kyliethicc

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AS SSD is a weird benchmark because of how it runs sequential and random WITHOUT using the cache of the SSD.
Why would you be using your SSD without its cache?
Especially in a game console.....the PS5 while gaming isnt going to get out of cache for something like a 980 or SN850.
AS SSD is basically a worst case scenario test....not a real world test.
It would be akin to starting a GPU test when it is degrees away from throttle point.





Yeah fair point. Here's another test done by Anandtech of SN850 and 980 Pro. They got about 6.5 GB/s on both.



 
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GuinGuin

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Lots of places in the US don't have AC either and their consoles don't burst into flame.

Willing to bet good money most people who have had a console die have abused it by using it in a hot unairconditioned environment, placing it on carpet, cramming it in a tight space, smoking around it, and/or letting it collect cat hair.
 
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Black_Stride

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Yeah fair point. Here's another test done by Anandtech of SN850 and 980 Pro. They got about 6.5 GB/s on both.



Within spec.
Yeah thats a more accurate measure of what these SSDs can do.
They are closer 7GB/s than they are to 6GB/s
AS SSD is just worse worst case.

Remember the rating given is the absolute max the manufacturer believes they could do....from sample to sample you will get closer to the 7GB/s mark or get towards 6.6GB/s.
But down into the 5s is highly highly unlikely till you jump out of cache.
 
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I managed around the small built-in drive by putting all my PS4 games on a fast USB 3 HDD (already much faster than the built-in laptop HDD od the PS4)

Obviously that may not be viable anymore in a few years, but at the moment it's perfectly fine.

I wonder if they have hit some kind of technical hurdle that prevents them from enabling the port... I was sure I saw some PCIe 4 drive that were supposed to release with ps5 "support" a while ago... So maybe I missed something.
 
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Anyway on topic does anybody have any idea how hard it will be to install the second drive when they are available? I don’t have a PS5 but will definitely be looking for more storage When I do get one unless they release a 2 tb version which I am hoping.
It's pretty easy, you remove a side plate and the drive bay is right there.
no idea why you would give this response to someone, it’s about as helpful as saying git good.
We need to tell our fellow games that they can do better.
 

RoadHazard

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Yes ive accepted the inefficiencies.
But are telling me a PCIE4 drive loses over a third of its bandwidth due to those inefficiencies?
A 7GB/s drive even with all the overhead will still maintain atleast 5.5GB/s.....and I say again atleast 5.5GB/s.
Its lost some of its throughput in the pipeline but theres no way it drops to 3 or 4GB/s.

The reason Cerny wanted max PCIE4 speeds is because of those inefficiencies and being able to cover them.
A 7GB/s drive even with all the inefficiencies will attain at the very least 5.5Gb/s


Alder lake is coming out later this year.
PCIE4 was always a stop-gap implementation.

That's so they will work in a PS5 with the 6 vs 2 priority levels. That's why some overhead is needed, it has nothing to do with what speed you'll get with that same SSD in a PC. I don't know the exact numbers, but no, you will not be getting 5.5GB/s data transfer from the SSD straight into VRAM with no/minimal latency on a PC without DirectStorage/RTX IO.
 

IntentionalPun

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You're wrong on all counts. The PS5 fan speed is determined not by how hot the components are but by the intensity of workload calculated in software. Therefore ambient temperature is irrelevant. Nearly every game is already pushing the GPU to its limits otherwise you wouldn't see things like dynamic resolution.

You've got to be kidding me.. aside from, common sense, of how every electronic component on earth works, this is straight from the horses mouth:


This is Chrome's translation:

Mr. Yasuhiro Otori (Sony Interactive Entertainment PS Product Division said:
In PS5, in addition to the temperature sensor mounted inside the APU, temperature sensors are also mounted at three places on the main board, and the fan uses the APU internal temperature and the highest temperature of the three temperature sensors as parameters. It is designed to control the speed.

A Japanese Resetera user translated it as:

In addition to the temperature sensor inside the APU, PS5 has three temperature sensors on the main board to control the fan speed based on the internal temperature of the APU and the highest temperature of the three temperature sensors.
 
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Enjay

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Who cares, I have no need for an internal M.2 drive at the moment.
OP won't like it but this is the correct answer. See also the several "playstation making record breaking money" headlines/threads, they don't care either.
 

RoadHazard

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twilo99

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This one is really weird. I've read so many different excuses as to why this wasn't available at launch, but still no clear answer. Its a mystery.

The other one is VRR... what happened there?
 

IntentionalPun

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The bold is quite simply not true.


What's proprietary about a 3.5mm jack headset?

If they offer a configuration of nvme that only works on the PS5 then by definition that is proprietary. If it also works on PC then it would be a standard interface nvme that happens to be licensed. There is a difference.

Sony don't make their own nvme drives so therefore they would be reliant on a third party manufacturer having a standard drive ready that they can slap a license on. That might well still happen.

Well that's just kind of a silly use of 'licensed'... maybe I mispoke a bit, but typically "licensed" hardware means you have to pay to have the device even work. Because the device owner owns the interface, aka it's their property, aka it's proprietary.

That's what it means.. if Sony owns the tech then it's proprietary.. if they let others use it, or they don't own the tech.. then it isn't proprietary, even if the PS5 is the only device to ever support it.

Cerny suggested they don't own the tech in the road to PS5.

Either way this is getting kind of stupid.. the point is nobody was suggesting Sony should lock the port down to only specific drives. Just that they could create their own drive to sell.
 

kyliethicc

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The bold is quite simply not true.


What's proprietary about a 3.5mm jack headset?

If they offer a configuration of nvme that only works on the PS5 then by definition that is proprietary. If it also works on PC then it would be a standard interface nvme that happens to be licensed. There is a difference.

Sony don't make their own nvme drives so therefore they would be reliant on a third party manufacturer having a standard drive ready that they can slap a license on. That might well still happen.
You are being way dramatic here.

All that was suggested was that Sony could ALSO make their own drive and sell it. Nobody is suggesting removing the ability to support 3rd party drives.

And you are completely misusing “proprietary” here. It literally means a company owns and controls a technology. Licensed hardware IS proprietary.

Im suggesting the opposite of that; none of this is proprietary it’s just a configuration of an NVME drive that people could offer. They might even be able to get them to work fine on PCs.
This is the official hard drive for PS4. Its a regular USB hard drive. Its licensed by Sony. But its not proprietary. And we can all use lots of other USB drives.

Sony could do this same thing with an M.2 drive. Licensed, not proprietary, same as any other drive. Users still have lots of other options.


 
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BadBurger

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I'm guessing they're having a difficult time finding partners who can fabricate what they need (which will be a custom job) in the midst of this chip shortage.
 

Black_Stride

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That's so they will work in a PS5 with the 6 vs 2 priority levels. That's why some overhead is needed, it has nothing to do with what speed you'll get with that same SSD in a PC. I don't know the exact numbers, but no, you will not be getting 5.5GB/s data transfer from the SSD straight into VRAM with no/minimal latency on a PC without DirectStorage/RTX IO.



You have no evidence and wont find any evidence that the SSD is losing over 1GB/s of throughput....from 7GB/s it wont manage 5.5GB/s, sure transfering to Sys RAM then to VRAM adds a bunch of latency....but the transfer rate to Sys RAM is still going to be above 5.5GB/s from Sys RAM to VRAM bobs your uncle.
Nvidia already tested what speeds they would get without using DirectStorage and it was the SSDs rated speed....with DirectStorage and a sufficiently powerful processor, or with RTX IO a GPU, the speeds are much higher than the SSDs rated speeds.

I shall no longer be discussing this conjecture with you.
Lets get back on topic.
 
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IntentionalPun

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This is the official hard drive for PS4. Its a regular USB hard drive. Its licensed by Sony. But its not proprietary. And we can all use lots of other USB drives.

Sony could do this same thing with an M.2 drive. Licensed, not proprietary, same as any other drive. Users still have lots of other options.


You guys are just using a different concept of licensed here than I am; but yes, I over-spoke.. not all licenses represented proprietary hardware. Sometimes it is just a logo on a box.

But if someone let's a 3rd party make proprietary hardware, it's typically licensed. The terms are intertwined in that way, but not completely inclusive of each other. But proprietary literally just means owned.. and "licensed" refers to the right to use something someone else owns.. in many cases that's literally just a logo on a box, which is what you guys keep referring to. When it comes to making the drive for the XSX it's much more than that. As that drive needs special firmware to even be recognized.

This is really just semantics. I'm suggesting Sony could make their own drive.. or others could make a drive just like the PS5's internal, without paying a license...
 
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Blond

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yeah guys remember, Sony users do not like options, we know that :) don't ever suggest an idea for additional options to a Sony fan!
I think it’s more that there’s a lot of options that fit the spec already. Right now the only one for Microsoft is a seagate that I wouldn’t trust with my porn folder much less all my games at that price. It sucks, yes, but I’d rather wait for the WD or Samsung drives to be available if I have to pay that kind of money. /shrug
 
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RoadHazard

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You have no evidence and wont find any evidence that the SSD is losing over 1GB/s of throughput....from 7GB/s it wont manage 5.5GB/s, sure transfering to Sys RAM then to VRAM adds a bunch of latency....but the transfer rate to Sys RAM is still going to be above 5.5GB/s from Sys RAM to VRAM bobs your uncle.
Nvidia already tested what speeds they would get without using DirectStorage and it was the SSDs rated speed....with DirectStorage and a sufficiently powerful processor, or with RTX IO a GPU, the speeds are much higher than the SSDs rated speeds.

I shall no longer be discussing this conjecture with you.
Lets get back on topic.

Watch Cerny's presentation and maybe you'll understand what the PS5 does that can't be replicated on a PC just by plopping a super fast SSD in there if the rest of the I/O architecture isn't up to the task.

It's also not only about raw throughput, but about latency. If you have a little latency here and a little there, it quickly adds up to a LOT of latency that's gonna be very detrimental to how quickly you can fetch data from all over the place. That's part of what Sony specifically worked to minimize in the PS5, and which makes things such as loading data as you're turning around in the game possible (R&C does this), vastly increasing what you can do with the available memory since you're only using it for things that are actually needed to render what's in front of you.
 
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kyliethicc

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You guys are just using a different concept of licensed here than I am; but yes, I over-spoke.. not all licenses represented proprietary hardware. Sometimes it is just a logo on a box.

But if someone let's a 3rd party make proprietary hardware, it's typically licensed. The terms are intertwined in that way, but not completely inclusive of each other. But proprietary literally just means owned.. and "licensed" refers to the right to use something someone else owns.. in many cases that's literally just a logo on a box, which is what you guys keep referring to. When it comes to making the drive for the XSX it's much more than that. As that drive needs special firmware to even be recognized.

This is really just semantics. I'm suggesting Sony could make their own drive.. or others could make a drive just like the PS5's internal, without paying a license...
Sure, the definition of proprietary means "of the owner."

But the point is the Seagate Xbox Expansion Card can only be used on Xbox Series.

While any M.2 SSD that can be used in the PS5 can also be used on PC.

Every USB HDD can be used on PS4, PS5, XBO, XBS, and PC. That means they're not proprietary. I can buy the "officially licensed" PS4 USB HDD and go use it on an Xbox.
 

Corndog

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And I'm not betting or saying those drives won't be fast enough. I don't know if they will. Sony will tell us.

I'm sure Sony chose the approach they did because they are sure it will work. It'll be fine.

And I agree that Xbox are scamming their users. This is the NVMe SSD inside the Xbox Series S/X.


And it can be purchased for $55 or $110 for 500 GB and 1 TB models. Same 2.4 GB/s speeds and NVMe 1.3 spec as the internal drive, just 2280 form instead of 2230. Yet Microsoft are so "pro consumer" that they are forcing their users to pay $230 for a 1 TB. Thats $120 more than it should be given the speed and unusually short warranty of Seagate's card.
Totally different form factor. I sure they don’t cost the same to produce. Plus who knows if Xbox gets any money from it.
 

IntentionalPun

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Sure, the definition of proprietary means "of the owner."

But the point is the Seagate Xbox Expansion Card can only be used on Xbox Series.

While any M.2 SSD that can be used in the PS5 can also be used on PC.

Every USB HDD can be used on PS4, PS5, XBO, XBS, and PC. That means they're not proprietary. I can buy the "officially licensed" PS4 USB HDD and go use it on an Xbox.

You guys are just doing that thing where you conflate something and think it is what it means, it's not.. but it's no big deal... it's not the point of the discussion anyways.

Nobody was advocating that Sony make the port in the PS5 proprietary, at all.. GHG just kept repeating that it's what was being advocated for.
 
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kyliethicc

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that isn't showing the actual transfer speed at the end of the I/O pipeline (the data landing in the GPU VRAM). The transfer speed from the SSD is not an interesting metric by itself.
It is quite useful. Because Cerny specifically said the PS5 will need an M.2 SSD that can deliver around 6-7 GB/s raw seq read.

He was saying that the 6-7 GB/s raw would be enough to deliver the 5.5 GB/s they need, and then the PS5's I/O unit inside the SoC takes care of the rest to make sure its not bottlenecked. Thats what you're referring to. He pointed out how the PS5 avoids bottlenecking its I/O. It has custom hardware. The PS5 can do all of that for the M.2 drive as well. It can avoid bottlenecks even with the M.2 drive, thanks to its SoC.
 

Corndog

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Watch Cerny's presentation and maybe you'll understand what the PS5 does that can't be replicated on a PC just by plopping a super fast SSD in there if the rest of the I/O architecture isn't up to the task.

It's also not only about raw throughput, but about latency. If you have a little latency here and a little there, it quickly adds up to a LOT of latency that's gonna be very detrimental to how quickly you can fetch data from all over the place. That's part of what Sony specifically worked to minimize in the PS5, and which makes things such as loading data as you're turning around in the game possible (R&C does this), vastly increasing what you can do with the available memory since you're only using it for things that are actually needed to render what's in front of you.
I like how you guys always act like there is nothing the pc can do. As well as act like all Xbox did was slap in an nvme drive a well. Maybe people would take you guys more seriously if you actually presented the facts in a fair manner rather then ps5 worship mode.
 
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kyliethicc

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Totally different form factor. I sure they don’t cost the same to produce. Plus who knows if Xbox gets any money from it.
A completely unnecessary new form factor. They could have just put an M.2 slot inside the Xbox. Users could then just buy the same M.2 drive that's inside the console, and add more storage for a fair price. But that wasn't profitable enough for Philsoft.

I like how you guys always act like there is nothing the pc can do. As well as act like all Xbox did was slap in an nvme drive a well. Maybe people would take you guys more seriously if you actually presented the facts in a fair manner rather then ps5 worship mode.

Xbox literally did just slap an M.2 drive into their console. Its the Western Digital Blue SN530 M.2 2230 NVMe SSD. 2.4 GB/s raw seq read. All they did was use PCIe Gen4x2 instead of Gen3x4, which is the same max speed of 3.5 GB/s anyways.
 
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RoadHazard

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It is quite useful. Because Cerny specifically said the PS5 will need an M.2 SSD that can deliver around 6-7 GB/s raw seq read.

He was saying that the 6-7 GB/s raw would be enough to deliver the 5.5 GB/s they need, and then the PS5's I/O unit inside the SoC takes care of the rest to make sure its not bottlenecked. Thats what you're referring to. He pointed out how the PS5 avoids bottlenecking its I/O. It has custom hardware. The PS5 can do all of that for the M.2 drive as well. It can avoid bottlenecks even with the M.2 drive, thanks to its SoC.

Ah yes, in that sense it's useful for sure. I thought that post was part of the discussion about PS5 vs PC I/O speeds.
 
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