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J.J. Abrams Says Rian Johnson ‘Didn’t Derail’ the ‘Star Wars’ Story in ‘Last Jedi’

Bonfires Down

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- This is one of the largest film franchises ever so we should carefully plan out the story for the new trilogy.
- Fuck that noise. Let's write some generic crap for the first movie and then just wing it. It's Star Wars so people will see it anyway. Also, let's switch directors back and forth because why not.

Then again, that's pretty much what happened with original trilogy too
 
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#Phonepunk#

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Original trilogy was mapped out well ahead of time. True the story changes but all the elements were there bc Lucas had to create everything from scratch. He spent years coming up with characters and ideas that would feature in the first film, in the prequels, and in the sequels. All this is well documented. Mace Windu and padawan were both invented before the script to the first film was finished.

The ST development is just “exquisite corpse”. Totally different. Literally making it up as you go along.

It is revisionist history to think Lucas put the same amount of effort into creating the universe as JJ did making one sequel to it. One of the worst things of the new era is people making up shit about the past to justify poor decisions they are making now.
 
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Doom85

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It's not making shit up. Lucas himself can't even keep consistent on what was planned and such as he talked about it throughout the years (Hammil even said once he heard Lucas was aiming for 12 films, not the 9 that is usually said). From the time I spent looking into it a while back, this is what seems to be the case:

-the original trilogy was not envisioned as a trilogy, they had intended to keep immediately going past 6. Once that plan changed, rewrites for 6 went down
-for that matter, the first movie didn't even have the "Episode 4" words attached to the opening crawl, that was added later
-Lucas originally planned that the Force was something that anyone could potentially tap into, just that some could get the hang of it faster and better than others comparing it specifically to yoga
-they had no idea who Yoda meant when he said "there is another". It was included as a tool to use to bring in a new character should Mark Hammil decide to move on from the series. When they realized 6 is where they would be stopping for a while, they settled on Leia
-Anakin and Vader were originally going to have a scene together (presumably a flashback) in 4. Needless to say, that raises an eyebrow
-when making 4, it is highly unlikely they knew the Emperor (who is mentioned once) was a Force user given the many rewrites first with Cos Dashit (that last name, are you fucking serious, Lucas? "Da shit"?) and then the novel implying he was just a political puppet. Also, the script describes Vader as the Dark Lord of the Sith which doesn't make sense since Palpatine is his master
-ROTJ was originally called Revenge of the Jedi. That would imply a very different film and conclusion especially since it contradicts Yoda in 5: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."
-Lucas at one point intended for Luke to put on Vader's helmet at the end of 6 and become the new ruler of the Empire
-while Lucas did shoot down killing off Han just because it would hurt toy sales (oh yes, the OT swam in merchandise pandering, lest we forget), he did originally consider having Han die halfway through 6. Makes sense given Han's line of "like I'm not going to see her again" when looking at the Falcon feels random in the final version, like foreshadowing that went nowhere. Harrison Ford and the co-writer of ROTJ were very disappointed that Lucas backed down from this dark twist
-producer Gary Kurtz was "politely kicked off" the production for pointing out that a second Death Star was derivative, but more importantly he revealed that another ending was going to have the Rebels win but with a massive casualty rate that makes no one feel like celebrating, Leia feel unhappy as she becomes queen and must focus on her duties fully, and Luke leaves for parts unknown like a classic spaghetti western

And to put the nail in the coffin, in 1983 Lucas himself said, "there was never a script completed that had the entire story as it exists now. As the stories unfolded, I would take certain ideas and save them. I kept taking out all the good parts, and I just kept telling myself I would make other movies someday."
Also, at ABC's celebration event for the final episode of LOST, the showrunners were given a letter from Lucas congratulating them. Lucas probably assumed the letter would be read privately by them and not out loud at an event, and a reporter was present so needless to say the cat was out of the bad. George Lucas: "Don't tell anyone, but when Star Wars first came out, I didn't know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you've planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories -- let's call them homages -- and you've got a series."

Also, what do you mean, "True the story changes"? So, in other words, it wasn't mapped out, the story is kinda the most important thing in planning out, you know, A STORY? "Well, I didn't know where Luke would be two movies later, but I knew we'd have cute and cool aliens for the kids to buy, so we're all good!"

There's a difference between loving something and putting it on a pedestal, and you're doing the latter. I'm not saying the OT didn't work for the most part in spite of the constant story shifts, but the only ones revising history are those claiming Lucas had all this shit down by the time the first movie hit theaters especially since he himself has said that's not the case.
 

Stiflers Mom

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I never believed that Lucas had all of the movies mapped out at any point of time.
It's just that switching the "show runner" inbetween makes for a very uncohesive trilogy.

With J.J. at the helm all the time, at least we would have got something that feels like being made out of one mold.
With the shitstain that is TLJ existing, the ST will always feel like they have thrown Star Wars under the bus, even if the last movie somehow delivers.
 
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Weilthain

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DidntDidn't Lucas' wife help re-write things as well? I remember reading that.
possibly but I heard she was responsible for editing much of the movie which may be why the original versions are forever gone.
 
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sol_bad

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possibly but I heard she was responsible for editing much of the movie which may be why the original versions are forever gone.

Maybe it was the editing that I read about and not the writing. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 

Gifmaker

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No, using the projection cost him his life. When Kylo sees Rey (not knowing why since Snoke reveals later that he set it up), he says, "you are not doing this. The effort would kill you" indicating it's a technique that costs the user their life (and Luke managed to use it for quite a few minutes, like a fucking boss).

Yoda passed away the way he did because he was apparently pretty damn old for his species. But Luke wasn't, dude was only 53. There's no evidence to suggest the Force claims people when their purpose is done or something like that. Yoda made it clear that all life eventually dies, so he clearly meant he was about to die due to age not because he had finished training Luke to the point he could.
Yeah, but on the other hand, there's Ben Kenobi, who clearly became one with the Force when he meant to and saw his purpose as fulfilled, and he wasn't much older than Luke. So it is completely within reason to assume that Luke became one with the Force because he desired to, not because the effort of astral projection killed him. My point being that from a writer's perspective, it does not really make sense to have Luke "just" be an astral projection on Crait when that stalling of Kylo is gonna cost him his life. If you want to show Luke sacrifizing his life to protect the resistance, why not have him be on Crait and actually sacrifice himself, or at least pull a Ben Kenobi? One could argue that it was supposed to be a surprising twist, but it isn't really because Luke's old blue saber in that astral projection is a straight giveaway when we saw it being destroyed like three scenes earlier. But with Luke pulling his stunt, and then looking romantically into the binary sunset he is imagining, that is a pretty big hint at that he is now at peace with himself, seeing himself returning home. And since he already outright stated in that movie that he wished to die, I think it is fair to assume that this was the intended interpretation, from a writer's POV.

Now, I guess I should be careful, I almost make it sound like TLJ was a well-written movie, when in fact it absolutely isn't.
 

Weilthain

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Luke resigned himself reluctantly to help a little bit. Give them some time to run away at the cost of his life.

“FINE I’ll come and help i guess. At least I can die in peace, hope the bad guys don’t catch you on the other side of that mountain with their space ships. I hate everything fuck you guys I don’t even care. -Luke skywalker
 
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slugbahr

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Hey guys, i fucked up. I'm gonna take a break for a while, get my head sorted. Come find me if you really need me though.

On second thought, this milk is delicious, I'm gonna stay here.

^^ The ST so far.
 

VAL0R

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I’ll admit I’m one of those people who absolutely adored the lightsaber fighting in the prequels. Everything about the way they were choreographed, and the sounds omg I love it so much.

I reaaalllllyy wanted to see Luke skywalker fight Kylo with lightsabers, I mean there wasn’t an actual lightsaber fight in the movie which is unforgivable.

I’m going to have to put on return of the Jedi again to calm down this hurts man.
Don't forget the goofy, gangly throne room jank fest that looked like 2 absolute amateurs waving light sabers around outside of a movie theater in cosplay on red plastic dudes waiting to get hit. Nice work Rian.
 

JimiNutz

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Don't forget the goofy, gangly throne room jank fest that looked like 2 absolute amateurs waving light sabers around outside of a movie theater in cosplay on red plastic dudes waiting to get hit. Nice work Rian.

Easily the worst fight in all of the films.
I'd rather watch Obi Wan and Vader slowly shuffling towards each other in A New Hope.
 

Nymphae

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I'd rather watch Obi Wan and Vader slowly shuffling towards each other in A New Hope.

I always laugh at the part in that scene where Obi-Wan's saber appears to like stutter and fizzle out for a second and he like shakes it back into working order lol. It's pretty subtle but it is noticeable. Probably something to do with the sabers being mostly practical effects back then, IIRC it was some weird rigging of mirrors on a pole.
 

poppabk

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Does anyone really think that the story for a star wars movie isn't ran through about 20 committees before it's approved?
 
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#Phonepunk#

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Does anyone really think that the story for a star wars movie isn't ran through about 20 committees before it's approved?
No doubt it is looked over by a bunch of suits who also have no idea what Star Wars is
So it is completely within reason to assume that Luke became one with the Force because he desired to, not because the effort of astral projection killed him.
Who knows? Maybe. That’s one of the big problems with the movie it’s just messily written. His decision to shut himself off from the force (very poorly portrayed here) happens offscreen and his decision to reverse that also happens offscreen. On top of that it is poorly portrayed since Luke is sensing stuff and reading power levels somehow anyway. It’s like Rian wanted Rambo hermit Luke when it suited the scene but give him force powers anyways when it doesn’t. His entire arc is poorly done and vaguely mapped out.

I’m supposed to be relived that he is back using the force (as it kills him?) when they did a poor job showing he was cut off from the start, so it’s like, they arbitrarily put him in a weird position at the start and ended the film with him back at status quo and you either buy it as some grand journey or you dont. This is why his death has no impact. It’s all so contrived.
 
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NickFire

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Straight up damage control, but I don't fault him the least. I'm ok with PR as long as I don't feel like the speaker is trying to deceive or belittle. And this doesn't strike me as that. i interpret it as "yeah, they created some speed bumps, but we can still get to where we wanted to go before they screwed everything up."
 

#Phonepunk#

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Stiflers Mom

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It's my favorite, apart from the error it feels real, rawr and intense in comparison to the prequels. Both choreography and camera work was great.
^____^
I was sitting in the cinema, and couldn't believe how bad it all was.
To each his own, I guess.
 
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Teslerum

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It's my favorite, apart from the error it feels real, rawr and intense in comparison to the prequels. Both choreography and camera work was great.
^____^

It absolutly is. Star Wars combat post-OT feels flashy for the sake of it. Lightsaber duels in the original trilogy oozed way more atmosphere. Sometimes less is more.
 
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Doom85

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It absolutly is. Star Wars combat post-OT feels flashy for the sake of it. Lightsaber duels in the original trilogy oozed way more atmosphere. Sometimes less is more.

Actually, there's an in-universe explanation for the style of combat in Episode 1. Since the Sith hadn't made a public appearance in centuries, the Jedi began focusing pretty much exclusively on lightsaber styles designed to block lasers and such as opposed to opposing lightsabers since the Sith weren't showing up anymore. As such, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's style in Episode 1 makes total sense, while a lot of their swings might seem more flashy as opposed to simply focusing on hitting Maul, it's because they're moving it in a way that they're used to in deflecting lasers. Obviously once Maul made his appearance known in 1, there was no time for Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan to learn a different style to better match him.

Now having that said, all of Obi-Wan and Anakin's fights still seem like they're the "blocking lasers" style in 2 and 3. Since Yoda and Windu acknowledged that another Sith should still be alive based on the Rule of Two, one would think Obi-Wan would learn a new style and Anakin would be trained in that style as well. But it's possible they're thinking that it's more important to focus on the laser-deflecting style since they're going to face that far more often throughout their missions than a Sith.

Mace Windu is the exception, he's actually trained in the most styles compared to any other individual Jedi. He is likely the most skilled lightsaber wielder in the PT. This is why Obi-Wan tells Anakin that if he applied himself he could surpass Yoda in lightsaber combat, because while obviously Yoda is very skilled with lightsabers someone with the potential like Anakin could surpass him, but surpassing Windu is a whole other story. This is also likely why Windu is the only one to beat Palpatine in lightsaber combat.