Japan’s law requires transgender people to undergo full sex change surgery before having their gender reassigned

Mar 10, 2015
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#51
This headline is misleading.

They didn't order people to be sterilized. They're forcing people to go through a full medical transition before being allowed to legally identify as such. The "forced sterility" is inferred because sterility is of course a primary risk when undergoing these surgeries.


This is off the heels of NY Times claiming that we shouldn't be thinking of brains in terms of "male" and "female" when it comes to biology and psychology, so I'm not surprised. Garbage propaganda outlet.
Yeah, the headline is ridiculous. Even my first take was incredulous, at face value this sounds absolutely horrific. But reading into the actual situation, no one is being forced to do anything. Anyone can say they're a he, she, xe, zhe, it or an attack helicopter if they want to without having to do a thing. The government is saying that if you want your legal sex to be changed from what you were born as, then you must transition into the sex you wish to be legally recognized as. This is not an unreasonable stance. Africanking is arguing with a strawman. Everyone is free to procreate with what biology gave them at birth as much as they want.
 
Mar 18, 2018
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#52
The only concern I have for the law and the thinking about it being fair is that it doesn't really address the issue with any empathy. A trans man knows they are a biological woman and if the general description of their mental given by these people are true then their body and nature acts in opposition to their identity. They will have the drive to procreate no matter what

I am not sure if law is the place to untangle that. I am not sure the life experiences and medical information has had time to ferment into something we can broad strike away through legislation.
 
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Likes: JareBear
Mar 12, 2014
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#53

BesuBaru

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#54
This seems like fake outrage.

Japan is requiring people who claim to be transgender to go through gender reassignment surgery before they do so, which isn't as bad as people claim it is. If you're a female, you should probably have female genitalia, and not male genitals.

The only thing I would say, is that it's pretty difficult to undo the surgery, and it could get in the way of reproduction. That's literally it. Thought that was a given for gender reassignment surgery.
 
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#56
Likes: JareBear
Feb 3, 2018
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#57
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the culture of Japan.

How prevalent is being transgender in Japan?

What is the reason behind the sterilization? Is it a way to 'prevent' having more 'out' trans people?

Is it ment to take the 'trans gene' out of the pool?

Is it just for show/scare tactic?

Or is it just part of the religious cultural history?
 
Likes: JareBear
Mar 10, 2015
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#58
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the culture of Japan.

How prevalent is being transgender in Japan?

What is the reason behind the sterilization? Is it a way to 'prevent' having more 'out' trans people?

Is it ment to take the 'trans gene' out of the pool?

Is it just for show/scare tactic?

Or is it just part of the religious cultural history?
The use of sterilization is misdirected. The law in Japan is that if you wish to legally change your gender, you need to undergo gender reassignment surgery. No one is forced to do this, mind you. The surgery has a high risk of sterilizing the person being operated on. Naturally, if you cut off your penis, it might make it hard to impregnate a woman with a penis.

No one is forced to do anything, anyone can be transgender and choose their pronouns and dress however they like and do whatever.
 
Feb 3, 2018
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#59
The use of sterilization is misdirected. The law in Japan is that if you wish to legally change your gender, you need to undergo gender reassignment surgery. No one is forced to do this, mind you. The surgery has a high risk of sterilizing the person being operated on. Naturally, if you cut off your penis, it might make it hard to impregnate a woman with a penis.

No one is forced to do anything, anyone can be transgender and choose their pronouns and dress however they like and do whatever.
Yeah it sounds bad but like I said I'm not going to pretend to know how the culture actually treats trans people.

I'm more shocked at how they had a form of eugenics untill the 90's.

As someone who works with disabled children and adults that was a gut punch and I'm glad they no longer just kill babies that are handicapped.
 
May 20, 2007
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#60
I doubt that. It certainly does not help fertility if you (as a female human) take copious amounts of testosterone, but since women who dope in power oriented sports still can get children, it is not something that always happens.
Fair enough. The drugs just have a large tendency to sterilize their users, it is not a guarantee.

Given that I still do not see this as outrageous.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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#61
Yeah it sounds bad but like I said I'm not going to pretend to know how the culture actually treats trans people.

I'm more shocked at how they had a form of eugenics untill the 90's.

As someone who works with disabled children and adults that was a gut punch and I'm glad they no longer just kill babies that are handicapped.
This is a thing in the US, though, today.
 

Woo-Fu

incest on the subway
Jan 2, 2007
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#64
Makes sense to me. If you want to legally be a particular sex then you probably should physically be that sex. Otherwise we might as well stop having any laws whatsoever that use sex as one of their data points(which may in itself be a good idea, I don't know).
 
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May 20, 2007
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#65
Please don't be one of those people who thinks animals and humans deserve the same level of consideration/legal protection.
Goodness no. I was agreeing with you and adding to the response. I really could have made that more clear.

I was just pointing out that eugenics are where dogs came from, so demonizing the term seemed silly.
 
Feb 21, 2018
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#68
I don't kinda makes sense to me. If you want to be a women, then get the surgery and become a legally recognized women. Of course if you cut of your dick and balls you won't be able to have kids anymore.

So what do they want, to be able to say they are a women but still be a man? I thought it was about being a "real" women? Transwomen want to force straight cismen and gay ciswomen into banging them. They want to be able to beat up on ciswomen in sports. Well I sure as hell don't know 1 real women that can shoot sperm into another women and produce a baby.

If you want to be legally recognized as a women then you need to transition, which a side effect of that is you can't shoot sperm anymore because women don't have dicks and balls.
 
Aug 3, 2010
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#70
So if you want all of your official documents to say you're the other gender, you can only do so if you've fully, surgically transitioned? And if you don't want to have the surgery, you can still have everyone in your knitting group call you whatever makes you happy? That doesn't sound all that crazy, especially in comparison to the sensationalist headline that I'd expect from a tabloid rag like the New York Post.
 

ArchaeEnkidu

Vincit qui se vincit
Jan 30, 2018
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#71
This headline is misleading.

They didn't order people to be sterilized. They're forcing people to go through a full medical transition before being allowed to legally identify as such. The "forced sterility" is inferred because sterility is of course a primary risk when undergoing these surgeries.


This is off the heels of NY Times claiming that we shouldn't be thinking of brains in terms of "male" and "female" when it comes to biology and psychology, so I'm not surprised. Garbage propaganda outlet.
Agreed wholeheartedly and I can't say this is a dumb move on Japan's part. If you want to be a Trans man/trans woman, undergo full transition to get the legal system to change your identity. Perfectly understandable and A-Okay to do.
 
May 17, 2012
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#72
At least it was an argument. Cunth fights on the internet while telling another member, essentially, that they're a loser for doing the same thing.
Did you even read their exchange? The other poster was insinuating that because of their stance on this one issue they supported gays and disabled people to be sterilized as well. Then tried to align them with Hitler. Setting up straw men and insinuating malice on them is a garbage argumentative style and I welcome it being met with hostility.

If you disagree you are a rapist. :messenger_sunglasses:
 
Apr 15, 2018
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#77
You're misrepresenting the situation. Cunth did respond pretty fairly and in return was essentially told "you're a nazi".

I mean, I guess he could have responded seriously to that charge, but honestly why bother. AK was setting up strawmen to slay
 
Sep 28, 2018
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#78
Japan upholds a very reasonable law, in response to that AfricanKing calls an entire country backwards and likens one of our members to Hitler.
 
Likes: Antoon
Nov 5, 2016
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#79
You're misrepresenting the situation. Cunth did respond pretty fairly and in return was essentially told "you're a nazi".

I mean, I guess he could have responded seriously to that charge, but honestly why bother. AK was setting up strawmen to slay
If someone called me a fucking virgin idiot loser every time I presented an unpopular opinion the fucking server would explode. Maybe both sides got a little incendiary?
 

matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#83
You got out. Well done.

The current perspective being [literally] forced, is that there are no differences.

Recent example thread. Warning : Will cause neurological pain.

There is no discussion allowed as to whether this is correct. Failure to comply with the Mods communication, in which they quote an 8 person study as definitive proof that there are no differences, will result in a ban.
He didn’t get out, he was banned, and he’s still salty about it.
 

matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#84
It was quite easy, there is a mechanism called "ban hammer" that helps with that.

No differences in physical performance does not equal no differences period. Mind you, I would be very surprised if reliable studies were to prove the claim that claim, but independent of whether one believes that claim, that does not make trans women and non-trans women undistinguishable, at all. I have not seen any such claim on Resetera when I was active there.
While I haven't seen that sentiment, I do not want to rule it out strictly that some people may think that. But if this was a standard position on Resetera or even an enforced one, then it would be very simple to demonstrate this. It is for other claims about transgender.

I doubt that. It certainly does not help fertility if you (as a female human) take copious amounts of testosterone, but since women who dope in power oriented sports still can get children, it is not something that always happens.
Typical Yoshi. “I haven’t personally seen X, so X never happened”. There’s an example right there in the thread you quoted. Just scroll down and look at what SweetNicole is saying and look at all the bans for “transphobia” for even hinting that it was right to remove transgender athletes from the women’s competition.

I used to think you were genuine and maybe just hadn’t seen examples of things people were criticising, but after the way you misrepresented NI’s behaviour in the Smollett thread and countless examples of “I haven’t seen X” when X has been right in front of your nose, I’m starting to think that maybe you just feign ignorance as a rhetorical tactic.
 
Oct 21, 2018
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#88
Misleading headlines are not rare in this forum, but Japan's position can still be questioned.

Japan isn't literally ordering sterilization so far. Nonetheless, Japanese law has been demanding gender change operations, which typically result in sterilization, as a requirement before any legal recognition. This isn't usually the case worldwide, so that legal view is far from universal or even common.

Operations like these are complex, expensive, risky and not necessarily suitable for all trans individuals, who may be at very different points in their transition, such as those who may not be physically or psychologically ready for them.

Or those who feel that they do not need an operation in the first place and still wish to be treated with respect. The idea that any formal recognition must be tied to an operation is debatable. If these operations were a purely procedural step with no other obstacles or implications, that would be a different matter.

Having this requirement suggests that if a person lacks the money to undergo such costly operations or wishes to delay them for multiple reasons, there is an opening for them to be legally discriminated.
 
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#89
Typical Yoshi. “I haven’t personally seen X, so X never happened”.
While I haven't seen that sentiment, I do not want to rule it out strictly that some people may think that.
Maybe check those two statements for fitting? I have genuine not seen such a statement yet. The Nicole posting in the thread is also talking about performance difference in sports, not stating that there is absolutely no difference between trans women and non-trans women. Of course, if someone on Resetera has the opinion that there is no difference whatsoever, she would probably be one of the prime candidates, but that would definitely be some interesting kind of delusion. I did not say they do not claim that trans women have no significant advantage in sports over non-trans women and in fact I think it is one of the most overreaching banning practices to ban people for that, if it is clearly a thing that needs further examination than what Nicole has posted there. Even if trans women had no significant advantage over non trans women in terms of physical performance, at this point in time at least, this is just noch a well-established fact and I cannot see how it is transphobic per se to be of the opinion that the effect of 10, 15 or even 20 years of male testosterone levels is irreversible also in terms of physical performance advantage. Afterall, many other effect, such as voice change, are irreversible, to the disadvantage of trans women. Sad as it may be for them.

Anyway, I am getting carried away: This is not the level of nuttery necessary to claim that there is no difference between trans women and non-trans women. Maybe I will be willing to debate that crazy theory when the first pregnant trans women walk among us.

I used to think you were genuine and maybe just hadn’t seen examples of things people were criticising, but after the way you misrepresented NI’s behaviour in the Smollett thread and countless examples of “I haven’t seen X” when X has been right in front of your nose, I’m starting to think that maybe you just feign ignorance as a rhetorical tactic.
Hard to answer in a valuable way here, because if I say "I am genuine in that", you may well interpret this as another rhetorical ploy. Anyway, for the record, what I write is genuinely my opinion. There are things that are being stated here about Resetera that I have not seen there and other where I might have seen what people may be referring to, but evaluated differently, so that my confusion over the given statement still is not feigned.
 
May 10, 2009
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#92
I didn't read the story, so I don't know how accurate it is, but the people shouldn't give the government the power to sterilize persons. It's not a good idea.
 
Sep 4, 2018
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#95
not only is the title misleading, it's entirely backwards. it presents the idea that a government wants to sterilize people. the only people doing the sterilizing are the people going through these full transitions. they are literally doing it to themselves.
 
Likes: Tygeezy
#96
You got out. Well done.

The current perspective being [literally] forced, is that there are no differences.

Recent example thread. Warning : Will cause neurological pain.

There is no discussion allowed as to whether this is correct. Failure to comply with the Mods communication, in which they quote an 8 person study as definitive proof that there are no differences, will result in a ban.
Yikes... the carnage

They need to come up with a term for fear of counter arguments to their world view to balance the transphobia blanket response to anyone who has a different opinion.

anteexcitantphobia?
 
May 20, 2007
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#98
This seems way too harsh to me.

I know we have a distaste of the weirdo Tumblr take on LGBT culture, but that doesn't justify bigotry against and draconian treatment of LGBT individuals, a little perspective here, guys.
Bigotry? As a LGBT individual who thinks this makes sense do you mind enlightening me?
 
Jan 25, 2018
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#99
Bigotry? As a LGBT individual who thinks this makes sense do you mind enlightening me?
I wasn't talking just in this specific case but in general, sometimes people's distaste of the Tumblr type culture can too often veer into bigotry against LGBT people in general.

But in this specific case, the story is that you can only "officially" change your gender if you undergo sex reassignment surgery, which thus sterilizes you, well, I think that's too harsh a requirement.
 

ArchaeEnkidu

Vincit qui se vincit
Jan 30, 2018
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I wasn't talking just in this specific case but in general, sometimes people's distaste of the Tumblr type culture can too often veer into bigotry against LGBT people in general.

But in this specific case, the story is that you can only "officially" change your gender if you undergo sex reassignment surgery, which thus sterilizes you, well, I think that's too harsh a requirement.
It doesn't sterilize you. It just has a high chance to do so. Plus there are always alternatives if you are afraid of such (egg/sperm banks, in vitro fertalization, adoption).