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Japan threatens to halt Unesco funding over Nanjing massacre listing
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UnluckyKate
Member
the worst.
freeofgreed
Member
Forgive Me
Banned
my japanese tutor acted like he wasnt really too aware of how much atrocity there was in china and basically said he knows what japan did was wrong in world war two but understands that japan just wanted to unify asia and can see why that would be a noble goal
i didnt really continue the conversation because its an awkward thing, but the idea i get is that your average japanese person probably isnt very informed of the narrative of the atrocity of japans ww2 occupancy, or they just follow the governments tactic of downplaying it for the rest of time
to be fair japan has apologized, and obviously with the relationship between china and japan it will never be enough, but yes japan should not be revisionist like this, it comes off very poorly
i didnt really continue the conversation because its an awkward thing, but the idea i get is that your average japanese person probably isnt very informed of the narrative of the atrocity of japans ww2 occupancy, or they just follow the governments tactic of downplaying it for the rest of time
to be fair japan has apologized, and obviously with the relationship between china and japan it will never be enough, but yes japan should not be revisionist like this, it comes off very poorly
Man, fuck Abe's government.
For real, this exactly on the same level as Germany withdrawing funding over a mention of Auschwitz, and the tone of the coverage should be the same.
It's also petty as fucking hell, this is over Memory of the World program, it's not like they've been asked for reparation or, I don't know, stop being a fucking holocaust deniers about this shit.
Bah.
For real, this exactly on the same level as Germany withdrawing funding over a mention of Auschwitz, and the tone of the coverage should be the same.
It's also petty as fucking hell, this is over Memory of the World program, it's not like they've been asked for reparation or, I don't know, stop being a fucking holocaust deniers about this shit.
Bah.
The relationship is as it is now because the government "apologizes" then turns around right away to visit shrines that honor war criminals and keep trying to edit it out of the history books. Given the way your tutor talks they are probably pretty successful at at least distorting the past.
Btw does anyone know if they try to deny/completely distort other events like the Bataan death march?
stump sock
Member
don't get me wrong, Abe sucks and is wrong about a lot of things, and is a notorious historical revisionist, but he's just the most recent person in a long line of historical whitewashers. the difference is that now they're being dragged against their will into the world spotlight thanks to technology making it harder to do this kind of thing unnoticed.
just a little over 4 years until the olympics, not making much progress towards becoming a world stage, despite stated intentions
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
It's still pretty fucked that we don't have accurate amount of deaths due to The Rape of Nanking.
The estimates vary from 40,000 to 300,000 (The latter being what China claims as in the article).
Since most Japanese military records on the killings were kept secret or destroyed shortly after the surrender of Japan in 1945, historians have not been able to accurately estimate the death toll of the massacre. The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated in 1948 that over 200,000 Chinese were killed in the incident. China's official estimate is more than 300,000 dead based on the evaluation of the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal in 1947. The death toll has been actively contested among scholars since the 1980s.
Japan is saying that they are halting because the chinese documents, which claim the 300,000 number along with other claims, are being included. I kind of doubt they wouldn't complain over a third party submitting paperwork with 200,000 deaths instead.
The estimates vary from 40,000 to 300,000 (The latter being what China claims as in the article).
Since most Japanese military records on the killings were kept secret or destroyed shortly after the surrender of Japan in 1945, historians have not been able to accurately estimate the death toll of the massacre. The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated in 1948 that over 200,000 Chinese were killed in the incident. China's official estimate is more than 300,000 dead based on the evaluation of the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal in 1947. The death toll has been actively contested among scholars since the 1980s.
Japan is saying that they are halting because the chinese documents, which claim the 300,000 number along with other claims, are being included. I kind of doubt they wouldn't complain over a third party submitting paperwork with 200,000 deaths instead.
Forgive Me
Banned
yeah that is true, they never seem all that truly sorry about it. i more meant that the relationship between china and japan has been about hate for thousands of years, i cant even fathom the way that it has shaped their interactions. with globalization obviously we need to move past cultural conflicts borne from a brutal past world, and japan needs to be the one that makes it happen at this point
You are of course right, I originally wrote "man, fuck Japan" and quickly realized it's not really fair to lump an entire country into that shit so I walked it back with an edit, not too successfully.
I should've went with something like "man, fuck Japanese holocaust deniers".
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
I heard they were contemplating doing this when I was watching NHK News the other day. Japan's current government is an absolute joke. Case in point. Fuck your funding, Abe.
stump sock
Member
"fuck the japanese government" is probably a safe thing to say, as you're not likely to throw many babies out with that bathwater. a shame, because despite public opinion or resistance, it's not likely to change anytime soon
vas_a_morir
Banned
This is a more complicated issue than it would seem, as Japan is not the only country with a revisionist history regarding the war in China. The most insulting thing Japan says is that the atrocities were justified to unify Asia (I've heard Japanese say that on talk news tv shows all the time and it baffled me). Because even if this was true, what right does Japan have to rule Asia and take away other nation's autonomy? Furthermore, they accomplished this by having the military stage a false terrorist attack against their own railroad in Manchuria. They blamed the locals and invaded in 'retaliation.' Straight-up unjustified murder.
But here's the problem: China's account time and time again has been proven to be exaggerated intentionally. In fact, if this was a trial in America and China was "the state" prosecuting Japan as the defendant for the Rape of Nanking, I'd acquit them. Why? Because China has repeatedly falsified evidence, manipulated photos, and exaggerated the death toll while lying about their government's own hand in the massacre over and over again; to the extent that I can't trust anything they say.
This one Japanese apologist historian published a book that took a look at every single photo evidence of the Rape of Nanking and concluded, with proof, that every single one of them is misrepresented. Now, do I think he's biased? yeah. Do I think Japan is guilty of awful shit in Asia? Oh yeah. Do I think China and Korea won't let it die 80 years later despite repeated apologies so they can use it for their own political agendas? Yes. Do I think Japan does the same by downplaying/silencing the severity and brutality of the war to help their own political agendas? Absolutely. But, the dude accomplished his goal of shaking my 1-sided anti-Japanese resolve regarding the Rape of Nanking. I now view the situation with a bit of a more nuanced opinion. Here he is on TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jWD5qpYnlk
So, in this issue, you go "lol Japan trying to lie again!" but in reality, it is pretty clear that Unesco is not intended to be used for this purpose. And even if it was, the death toll of 300,000 is not just dubious, but likely impossible by virtually all non-government sources. However, it's important to remember that people believe Nanking because it's 100% consistent with the behavior of Japanese forces all over Asia during the war. Japan doesn't need to try to deny it outright, but at the same time, China and Korea don't need to exaggerate to make it seem bad, either.
Demographics in action. It's the equivalent of the GOP gaining power over time because the population keeps getting older and older.
Forgive Me
Banned
this was a good and measured post, thank you
vas_a_morir
Banned
It's important to remember that Japan's government, media, and public WORSHIPS Unesco. Until I came to Japan, I had never heard of "World Heritage Sites" but in Japan, they boast and brag about it all the time like it justifies their culture in the world. It's a source of Japanese feelings of national/cultural/perhaps racial superiority. They bring it up CONSTANTLY. Meanwhile, in the US, I had never heard of it. So, this is a pretty smart political tactic by China and obviously a really tough issue for Japan.
PdotMichael
Banned
It's not the job of Japanese nationalists to etablish the correct victim count.
Is there any proof supporting this that aren't from Japanese nationalists?
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Sad state of affairs.
stump sock
Member
I was similarly unaware until I started learning the language and following their media. they are obsessed with their world heritage sites. to the point where people get mocked on quiz shows if they get questions about them wrong.
metalslimer
Member
Regardless of any exaggeration by the Japanese their repeated denial of the how they were as evil as Nazi Germany during world war 2 ruins any leg they have to stand on. Own up to your awful past
So we either have a potentially exaggerated number of deaths, or denial the event ever happened.
Question: Why does Japan care about the number of deaths? Shouldn't they just care about the accusation period? Or is it only Chinese individuals who care about the desth toll count. Regardless, weird stuff to me.
Question: Why does Japan care about the number of deaths? Shouldn't they just care about the accusation period? Or is it only Chinese individuals who care about the desth toll count. Regardless, weird stuff to me.
I was reading the amazing historical photo thread we have here on GAF yesterday, and there were pictures about the Japanese performing human experimentation (as vivisection on live humans) on a wide scale. In the post war, the US ignored it and let it slide because we basically got into the immediate focus of political ideologies of the Cold War, and Japan quickly became an ally. If I understand correctly, the US possesses tons of intel on the war crimes of the pacific theater, but we don't really give a rats ass because we want to stay neutral and keep good business with both China and Japan.
VendettaRed07
Member
But Arguments from Abe and other Japanese nationalists isn't " you guys are exaggerating the numbers", their argument is "none of this ever happened and we did nothing wrong".
Tbh often I do feel like China and Korea use these past crimes for their own interests and political purposes in situations where they shouldn't, kind of like how Greece demanded Germany owed them billions in reparations for WWII when they defaulted... But I have no sympathy for Japan in this regard because unlike Germany they flat out deny any wrong doing whatso ever.. They have not taken the necessary steps any any point in order to make amends for the past like Germany has.
metalslimer
Member
Japan's leaders deserved so much more than they got post-war that the fact that they try to downplay their atrocities is even more disgusting
My eyes are rolling so hard they're in danger of falling out of my head.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
It happened..own that shit..
This is like viewing the American Civil War "with a more nuanced opinion" after reading the KKK's account of what happened.
stump sock
Member
and yet, leading US republican candidate Ben Carson thinks that teaching about US atrocities will make our citizens join ISIS.
what a world
Japan being Japan. I doubt we'll see them change their tune any time soon.
That was Unit 731. And the U.S. gave diplomatic immunity to the scientists and main architects of Unit 731 in exchange for the data they've collected on biological warfare and medical data. Plus to keep this data away from the Russians.
Coincidentally, the use of a weaponized version of the Plague appeared during the Korean war where the main architect of Unit 731 Shiro Ishii served as an adviser.
That was Unit 731. And the U.S. gave diplomatic immunity to the scientists and main architects of Unit 731 in exchange for the data they've collected on biological warfare and medical data. Plus to keep this data away from the Russians.
Coincidentally, the use of a weaponized version of the Plague appeared during the Korean war where the main architect of Unit 731 Shiro Ishii served as an adviser.
vas_a_morir
Banned
I've seen it discussed many places, but this was the first time I visually saw the evidence confirmed. If you are looking for a 100% trustworthy and unbiased account, you won't find it. Mostly because 99% of the evidence comes from a country where journalism is for all intents and purposes illegal. In fact, it might be illegal to go against the government narrative of the event in the press or question the validity of the photos.
I don't think it matters, though. This one man is probably biased, but he provides evidence visually that a lot of the photos are not just misrepresented, but straight-up photoshopped, for lack of a better word. He may have an opinion that you disagree with (although there is no outward indication this is the case), but unless he did photoshopping himself, he would appear to have genuine evidence.
However, it doesn't mean that Japan is innocent. IMO, Just splitting hairs. Because of the fake terrorist attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident) not one military action in China at that time was justified. It's even less justified than the German Invasion of Belgium. Anyway, I don't think it's right to whitewash the atrocities of the Japanese Imperial forces in Asia, but at the same time, I think you shouldn't knowingly trust sources from a country where journalism is illegal just because it fits your own desired, easy to argue narrative. And, this is coming from a guy that has been banned for having an "Anti-Japanese Agenda" before. lol
No, it's not comparable at all. A better comparison would be like reading a Professor with a PHD in 19th American History's book with compelling visual evidence about the American Civil War, but the Professor happens to be from the University of Georgia.
This Japanese author is a legit historian. He might have an agenda, he might not, but he isn't some radical hate-mongerer. We SHOULD look at WW2 and the Am. Civil War with a nuanced opinion because facts are fucking facts. Lying to make your point seem easier to digest is never right. It's not wrong to highlight US atrocities during the war, even though we think the USA was the 'good guys' in the war against the CSA. The funny thing is my opinion is actually the SAME as you regarding the rape of Nanking. Just, I don't want to willfully ignore facts or accept dubious accounts blindly to make my position easier to defend.
Netherscourge
Banned
I'm going to guess Japan is:
1. Still in denial.
2. Worried about a super-mega future lawsuit.
3. Big fans of revisionist history.
4. Flat-out ashamed of itself and willingly looking to cover it all up.
5. All of the above.
It's one of the most absurd things I've ever read. Asia isn't Great Britain!
I'm pretty sure it does. Information from a source like that tends to be distorted.
Also, there's a reason that "the number of deaths in the Holocaust is exaggerated" tends to fall under the umbrella of Holocaust denial. Those arguments tend to be not in good faith.
Thanks for the clarification. I don't have a very comprehensive knowledge of the historical landscape and politics of our county at the time, but it kinda seems like the genesis of our bullheaded foreign policy. Perhaps it's over simplifying, but how crazy is it that we armed axis weapons born of human rights violations, for our own political ideology and agenda?
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