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Rumor Clickbait Cringe Jason Schreier from Kotaku reiterates that devs do not like Lockhart, "significantly less RAM"

eastwood333

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My opinion since Lockhart rumors started (with MS E3 2018 hinting at two SKUs).

Lockhart will hold the next-gen games... that include MS exclusives and 3rd-party multiplatform.

The exception will be Sony exclusives that will base on PS5.

Having a hardware similar to PS4 Pro as base is ridiculous.
Pro has Zen 2 CPU and SSD?
 

Gashtronomy

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Here's a thought:

Maybe Microsoft will do things backwards. They offer a very cost-effective entry product, aimed at the casual crowd jumping in. Then a year/two years later they release the Scarlett X, which is ludicrously powerful and aimed at the Hardcore crowd?
 

ethomaz

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That's what I don't understand people keep saying this is PRo levels. Even if the GPU is. The CPU is going to make a big difference. This isn't going to be a renamed less powerful xbox x.
Because you need balance... you will be underutilizing the CPU if the GPU can't delivery at the same level.
 

mckmas8808

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On paper i can see why they would make this choice but execution could be very messy.

Indeed this is the Trojan horse to get people in the ecosystem and on gamepass but at what "cost" to the development of games.

It will indeed make dev times and resources not difficult to manage but as engines and API's get better it becomes less and less of a requirement, but it will always take time and money.

Is the risk worth the reward to get more people in the ecosystem? Tough to say.
There's only one way for this to go. And that's it being messy.

Because the engineers at Xbox don't know this? I suggest people wait for a full reveal before jumping to conclusions
Why though? Isn't this what we always do? Speculate?
 
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The Alien

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Sure, all devs want as much time as possible with as final a kit as possible. But if they are using same architecture as last gen...with known target specs, why is this a concern?
Didnt Microsoft have a dev kit this gen where the dev could literally hit a button that would optimize for each XBox One (OG, S, X)?

There were multiple consoles (3 XB, 2 Sony) this gen. Same with iPhones. Certainly the potential PC configurations are numerous.

Not sure what the deal here is. It's why I wont put too much stock into any next gen news until official announcements.

What am i missing?
Is this fake "concern" clickbait or legit?
 

Nikana

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Sure, all devs want as much time as possible with as final a kit as possible. But if they are using same architecture as last gen...with known target specs, why is this a concern?
Didnt Microsoft have a dev kit this gen where the dev could literally hit a button that would optimize for each XBox One (OG, S, X)?

There were multiple consoles (3 XB, 2 Sony) this gen. Same with iPhones. Certainly the potential PC configurations are numerous.

Not sure what the deal here is. It's why I wont put too much stock into any next gen news until official announcements.

What am i missing?
Is this fake "concern" clickbait or legit?
There isn't a process to automatically go from one S to X and vice versa but the tools and jump in specs supposedly made it extremely easy for devs to make it happen.
 

ethomaz

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Because the engineers at Xbox don't know this? I suggest people wait for a full reveal before jumping to conclusions
Yeap and devs are mad for nothing lol

I remember engineers of Xbox being the creator of DirectX and not giving up 30% in power.
They created the Xbox One great memory setup too.

See?
 
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ZywyPL

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Let's put it this way - billions of people play the exact same games on PCs in different resolutions, framerate s, settings, and it works, because it's still the same games, and if it works so well on basically infinite combinations of hardware, I don't see how it couldn't work for just two console variants, which bare in mind is already happening with mid-gen refresh models. Not everyone needs a 2080Ti to enjoy the games, think of Lockhart like someone with RX580/GF1060, the lesser resolution or lowered details don't take away of what the game is.
 

Sycomunkee

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Yeap and devs are mad for nothing lol

I remember engineers of Xbox being the creator of DirectX and not giving up 30% in power.
They created the Xbox One great memory setup too.

See?
I keep hearing this. What devs?
 
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ethomaz

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I keep hearing this. What devs?
You are in a thread about that lol

"Repeats the disinterest from developers for lockhart, says it will have significantly less ram, he has heard developers saying the GPU is basically PS4 Pro level, but the CPU and SSD should improve it beyond that, still developers dont want to be forced to work on lockhart and feel that the SKU will hamper next gen games."

BTW he is not the first person to say that... some journalists even said MS "canceled" Lockhart due devs backslash.
 
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Sycomunkee

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You are in a thread about that lol

"Repeats the disinterest from developers for lockhart, says it will have significantly less ram, he has heard developers saying the GPU is basically PS4 Pro level, but the CPU and SSD should improve it beyond that, still developers dont want to be forced to work on lockhart and feel that the SKU will hamper next gen games."

BTW he is not the first person to say that... some journalists even said MS "canceled" Lockhart due devs backslash.
Let's take a minute to actually think about the 3rd party games that matter and ask ourselves, what innovative things were they actually planning on doing with all that power?
 
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Let's take a minute to actually think about the 3rd party games that matter and ask ourselves, what innovative things were they actually planning on doing with all that power?
Faster loading and more persistence for open world games. I am looking forward to that, but it is also the only thing I can think of. Gen gaps are getting smaller amd smaller, naturally. VR was the biggest jump in a long time
 

Sycomunkee

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Faster loading and more persistence for open world games. I am looking forward to that, but it is also the only thing I can think of. Gen gaps are getting smaller amd smaller, naturally. VR was the biggest jump in a long time
Games are built in engines that are meant to be scaled. 3rd party games are typically on every platform for maximum profitability. Lackhart wouldn't change this. It sounds like "devs" are just complaining at this point.
 
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cryptoadam

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This wont work. People who buy consoles in the first year/s are usually the hardcore fanbase that would pay whatever expensive price anyways. this is just going to confuse the market and developers. It you can't afford next gen they most would just stick with the system they have already and wait it out. And seeing how the X is still 350-499 how much cheaper is this system really going to be?

Will they sell this for 299 and XBX for 350 LOL.
 

Rolling_Start

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Why do people now think $300 is cheap?
Well relatively, it kind of is. Compared to a $400 Pro, $500 X1X, and whatever the PS3 would cost now with inflation. Even the super cheap Dreamcast would probably be more than $300 now.

And compared to the cost of the just the CPU and RAM if buying in the PC space, it'd be amazingly good value (apples and oranges comparision beyond the cost of aquiring the silicon of course).

That's the best part about consoles though. It's the lack of options that are good.
There are already lots of options though. Even excluding PC, which all games now support (even Death Stranding!), you're going from the X1 GPU and PS4 CPU up to the X1X - different CPU speeds, wildly different GPU speeds and even different ram quantities. Some games - even impressive titles like the Witcher 3 - even scale down to the Switch!

Options are with us. Pro, pauper, mobile, cloud, master race ... the market has shown it's interested in options. And price is one of those options people generally want covering.

This wont work. People who buy consoles in the first year/s are usually the hardcore fanbase that would pay whatever expensive price anyways.
That's because they've always had to. Where there's a choice - TV's, monitors, BluRay players, phones, laptops, graphics cards ... even cars, power tools, etc etc - there are some who will go for something newer and better than what they currently have even if it isn't the best.

If console owners would only ever go for the best, why are the PS4 and X1 still outselling the superior Pro and X1X? It says a lot that the X1S is still outselling the X1X despite the gulf in performance.
 
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cryptoadam

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That's because they've always had to. Where there's a choice - TV's, monitors, BluRay players, phones, laptops, graphics cards ... even cars, power tools, etc etc - there are some who will go for something newer and better than what they currently have even if it isn't the best.

If console owners would only ever go for the best, why are the PS4 and X1 still outselling the superior Pro and X1X? It says a lot that the X1S is still outselling the X1X despite the gulf in performance.
I am talking about people who buy consoles day 1, first months. Generally these people don't cheap out, if they are going to go next gen they will go next gen and pay the extra $$$ for the newest machine.

sure it makes sense a few years into a gen because those people who weren't going to pay top dollar want to jump in. But at the start of a gen you are basically tapping into your hardcore fanbase that is willing to pay.

It going to split the audience, cause confusion, and split developer resources. Its a good idea in theory but not in execution and I see this going over the same way as MS DRM Download only stuff at the start of the gen.
 

mckmas8808

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Let's put it this way - billions of people play the exact same games on PCs in different resolutions, framerate s, settings, and it works, because it's still the same games, and if it works so well on basically infinite combinations of hardware, I don't see how it couldn't work for just two console variants, which bare in mind is already happening with mid-gen refresh models. Not everyone needs a 2080Ti to enjoy the games, think of Lockhart like someone with RX580/GF1060, the lesser resolution or lowered details don't take away of what the game is.
If that's what you want then buy a PC. Consoles aren't PCs.

Faster loading and more persistence for open world games. I am looking forward to that, but it is also the only thing I can think of. Gen gaps are getting smaller amd smaller, naturally. VR was the biggest jump in a long time
Funny thing is in 2011, there's NO WAY we'd know that VR would be in the next Playstation console. And no way we'd think games would look like Spiderman, RDR2, Horizon Zero Dawn "AND" be open world.
 

The Alien

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Well relatively, it kind of is. Compared to a $400 Pro, $500 X1X, and whatever the PS3 would cost now with inflation. Even the super cheap Dreamcast would probably be more than $300 now.

And compared to the cost of the just the CPU and RAM if buying in the PC space, it'd be amazingly good value (apples and oranges comparision beyond the cost of aquiring the silicon of course).



There are already lots of options though. Even excluding PC, which all games now support (even Death Stranding!), you're going from the X1 GPU and PS4 CPU up to the X1X - different CPU speeds, wildly different GPU speeds and even different ram quantities. Some games - even impressive titles like the Witcher 3 - even scale down to the Switch!

Options are with us. Pro, pauper, mobile, cloud, master race ... the market has shown it's interested in options. And price is one of those options people generally want covering.



That's because they've always had to. Where there's a choice - TV's, monitors, BluRay players, phones, laptops, graphics cards ... even cars, power tools, etc etc - there are some who will go for something newer and better than what they currently have even if it isn't the best.

If console owners would only ever go for the best, why are the PS4 and X1 still outselling the superior Pro and X1X? It says a lot that the X1S is still outselling the X1X despite the gulf in performance.
I think most on this site would get the higher end but Mommy and Daddy buying little Jimmy and Susie their consoles see price first not performance.

Also, little Jimmy and Susie may want the X, but Mommy and Daddy ultimatum is "get the S or get nothing".

Suppose that also speaks to why the rumored XBox Lockhart will be a launch console.
 

Rolling_Start

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I am talking about people who buy consoles day 1, first months. Generally these people don't cheap out, if they are going to go next gen they will go next gen and pay the extra $$$ for the newest machine.

sure it makes sense a few years into a gen because those people who weren't going to pay top dollar want to jump in. But at the start of a gen you are basically tapping into your hardcore fanbase that is willing to pay.
If your "low end" machine* is affordable enough, you can quickly replace your current systems with it with minimal price difference and instantly more people can access your new platform(s).

Image if everyone buying a PS4 right now, or even a PS4 Pro, was funnelled into a lower end PS5 instead of having to wait x number of years till they could afford full fat PS5. Total uptake of the PS5 would be higher, particularly in the early years. It might also shorten the generational transition.

Plenty of folks buy mid range graphics cards, instead of waiting for high end cards to go half way towards obsolescence.

It going to split the audience, cause confusion, and split developer resources. Its a good idea in theory but not in execution and I see this going over the same way as MS DRM Download only stuff at the start of the gen.
I see it as joining audiences that would otherwise be split (low and high end are across different generations currently - now that's a split!). I think customer confusion will clear up very quickly for people who can handle any other aspect of modern life, and additional developer resources won't be high for anyone used to the PC, unless they really, really want to get into fine tuning on a per asset, per scene level.

You're absolutely right that it's all in the execution though. There are a lot of ways to fuck this up, even though computers, phones and just about every single other piece of tech have already made the transition!
 

cryptoadam

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If your "low end" machine* is affordable enough, you can quickly replace your current systems with it with minimal price difference and instantly more people can access your new platform(s).

Image if everyone buying a PS4 right now, or even a PS4 Pro, was funnelled into a lower end PS5 instead of having to wait x number of years till they could afford full fat PS5. Total uptake of the PS5 would be higher, particularly in the early years. It might also shorten the generational transition.

Plenty of folks buy mid range graphics cards, instead of waiting for high end cards to go half way towards obsolescence.
If you are cheap like that you probably waited a few years to get your PS4 and are not looking to spend another 300$ for a slight upgrade. This stratgey could work mid gen, but at the start of the gen you don't really have casuals etc, its the hardcore that will wait in line or run around to mulitple stores to get their PS5. Its the same people that would get 2 jobs and pay 599 for a PS3 LOL.

I just don't see hey look we have a weaker but cheaper machine, but not really cheap and you probably just bought your last machine within the last 24 months or so so instead of getting the full upgrade, get this weaker one.
 

mckmas8808

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If your "low end" machine* is affordable enough, you can quickly replace your current systems with it with minimal price difference and instantly more people can access your new platform(s).

Image if everyone buying a PS4 right now, or even a PS4 Pro, was funnelled into a lower end PS5 instead of having to wait x number of years till they could afford full fat PS5. Total uptake of the PS5 would be higher, particularly in the early years. It might also shorten the generational transition.

JESUS CHRIST...................I'D HATE THIS!!!!! I don't care about stupid casual gamers. And they shouldn't care about buying a PS5 day one either.
 

Rolling_Start

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If you are cheap like that you probably waited a few years to get your PS4 and are not looking to spend another 300$ for a slight upgrade. This stratgey could work mid gen, but at the start of the gen you don't really have casuals etc, its the hardcore that will wait in line or run around to mulitple stores to get their PS5. Its the same people that would get 2 jobs and pay 599 for a PS3 LOL.

I just don't see hey look we have a weaker but cheaper machine, but not really cheap and you probably just bought your last machine within the last 24 months or so so instead of getting the full upgrade, get this weaker one.
You know the PS4 is still selling gangbusters, right? There are still millions and millions of people every year buying a PS4.

Why wouldn't you want to appeal to these people, and also to people who bought in years 3 and 4 and 5, who might want something massively better but who can't justify $500 on hardware?

8 Zen 2 cores and an NVMe SSD aren't slight upgrades, they're bloody big and the entire basis of next gen's gameplay-related jump.

JESUS CHRIST...................I'D HATE THIS!!!!! I don't care about stupid casual gamers. And they shouldn't care about buying a PS5 day one either.
"Stupid casual gamers" still want the games they want but at an accessible price. And a lot of those stupid casual gamers aren't actually stupid or casual, they just can't necessarily justify a large initial outlay on hardware - especially if it does nothing for the core game experience.

The thing about "stupid casual gamers" is that they only care about one thing: gameplay.
 

cryptoadam

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You know the PS4 is still selling gangbusters, right? There are still millions and millions of people every year buying a PS4.

Why wouldn't you want to appeal to these people, and also to people who bought in years 3 and 4 and 5, who might want something massively better but who can't justify $500 on hardware?

8 Zen 2 cores and an NVMe SSD aren't slight upgrades, they're bloody big and the entire basis of next gen's gameplay-related jump.
Thats my point, you just spend 200-300$ (even more if you got a pro or one) and now you are asked to upgrade and spend another 300$. These people who waited till year 3 or 4 aren't jumping in early. At the start of a gen there isn't casuals, there are your hardcore audience. And they will pay.

Maybe it works, but to me it will just muddy the marketing and confuse the market. You can chose a true next gen system from PS or MS, or get the gimped version. If you are jumping in at the most expensive time of the life of a console I don't see the gimped option being appealing.

It makes sense during the gen, like the Switch lite, but not at the start of the gen. Suck up as much money as you can from your rubes while they are willing to pay out the butt to be the cool kid with the next gen system.

If you plan to be there in year one odds are you are willing to swallow the cost to be there. If you are price sensitive then you are probably part of those 10's of millions of people who bought the console in year 2/3/4/5 when there were deals and cheaper games available.
 

Rolling_Start

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Thats my point, you just spend 200-300$ (even more if you got a pro or one) and now you are asked to upgrade and spend another 300$. These people who waited till year 3 or 4 aren't jumping in early. At the start of a gen there isn't casuals, there are your hardcore audience. And they will pay.
Life is a stream. There are people constantly being satisfied and people who constantly want more.
 

cryptoadam

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Life is a stream. There are people constantly being satisfied and people who constantly want more.
We will see but I think this will work out as great as MS's DRM plan. I just don't see this being the strategy to beat Sony and Nintendo next gen.

I would of liked to see them create some sort of hybrid box that is mainly streaming but with some hardware in it to lower latency and improve res/frames. Maybe sell that for 149.99 or something. Add a HDD to give the option to download One and some indie games. I think that would of been a more interesting "cheaper" device than making a gimped next gen system.

You could stream gamepass at 1080 P, but the hardware would work with the streaming to give you solid 1080P/60 FPS and minimize the latency.
 

teh_pwn

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Microsoft is probably trying to get majority marketshare by offering a gimped but cheap nextgen console. The games will he a mess but they don't care if they get the marketshare.
 

Three

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People upset about Lockhart but Scarlett user base would die off without it most likely
This. Xbox one X is pretty much nonexistent as a platform if it were on its own. Hell even now you get games on the X where graphically it's the shitty Xbox One S version of the game with the resolution slider increased.
 

mckmas8808

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You know the PS4 is still selling gangbusters, right? There are still millions and millions of people every year buying a PS4.

Why wouldn't you want to appeal to these people, and also to people who bought in years 3 and 4 and 5, who might want something massively better but who can't justify $500 on hardware?

8 Zen 2 cores and an NVMe SSD aren't slight upgrades, they're bloody big and the entire basis of next gen's gameplay-related jump.



"Stupid casual gamers" still want the games they want but at an accessible price. And a lot of those stupid casual gamers aren't actually stupid or casual, they just can't necessarily justify a large initial outlay on hardware - especially if it does nothing for the core game experience.

The thing about "stupid casual gamers" is that they only care about one thing: gameplay.
You sure they care mostly about gameplay? I don't think they do as much as the hardcore gamer.
 

magnumpy

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could it be that ms is basically doing what stadia did for their cheaper xbox, lockheart I believe. basically just a streaming console. then have a regular gpu+cpu for the more expensive model?
 

onQ123

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could it be that ms is basically doing what stadia did for their cheaper xbox, lockheart I believe. basically just a streaming console. then have a regular gpu+cpu for the more expensive model?
You wouldn't need 4TF for a streaming device why do people keep saying this?
 
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You wouldn't need 4TF for a streaming device why do people keep saying this?
People don't want to believe that a rich and powerful company could ever make stupid mistakes. So they tried to make excuses for such companies in their stead.

This is despite numerous stupid mistakes the Xbox had made this gen already. The faith that "rich people are always right" is something I can never understand.
 
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onQ123

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People don't want to believe that a rich and powerful company could ever make stupid mistakes. So they tried to make excuses for such companies in their stead.

This is despite numerous stupid mistakes the Xbox had made this gen already. The faith that "rich people are always right" is something I can never understand.
But it's not a stupid mistake it's a smart move.



Without the lower end Scarlett & the Xbox One user base Scarlett would die
 
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But it's not a stupid mistake it's a smart move.



Without the lower end Scarlett & the Xbox One user base Scarlett would die
The lower end is the Xbox1S. You make a super slim model and sell that. That's how it worked for Sony for three game generations, and now it seems Microsoft is going to deviate away from a winning formula out of desperation.

PS4 Superslim at $199 or even cheaper, would eat Lockhart's lunch.
 

onQ123

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The lower end is the Xbox1S. You make a super slim model and sell that. That's how it worked for Sony for three game generations, and now it seems Microsoft is going to deviate away from a winning formula out of desperation.

PS4 Superslim at $199 or even cheaper, would eat Lockhart's lunch.
A Superslim PS4 is still a PS4 which is already 100 million deep that lunch has already been ate but MS still need to build on the Xbox Scarlett user base.
 
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A Superslim PS4 is still a PS4 which is already 100 million deep that lunch has already been ate but MS still need to build on the Xbox Scarlett user base.
There is only one way to build the userbase of a next gen machine; by having games the current gen can't run.

Microsoft had deliberately abandoned the tried and true way to sell next gen machines, which both Nintendo and Sony are banking on. So now Microsoft is left to re-invent the wheel.

"How do you sell the Scarlet without using next-gen exclusives"?

No one know the answer to that. And Microsoft is in that impossible position by their own actions.
 
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onQ123

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There is only one way to build the userbase of a next gen machine; by having games the current gen can't run.

Microsoft had deliberately abandoned the tried and true way to sell next gen machines, which both Nintendo and Sony are banking on. So now Microsoft is left to re-invent the wheel.

"How do you sell the Scarlet without using next-gen exclusives"?

No one know the answer to that. And Microsoft is in that impossible position by their own actions.

If you're a publisher spending millions on a game that needs to be recouped would you rather take this chance with a user base that span across 50 million+ Xbox Ones & Xbox Scarletts or would you rather take that chance on making the game exclusive to a high price Xbox Scarlett?
 

DeepEnigma

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If you're a publisher spending millions on a game that needs to be recouped would you rather take this chance with a user base that span across 50 million+ Xbox Ones & Xbox Scarletts or would you rather take that chance on making the game exclusive to a high price Xbox Scarlett?
Cross gen games I get, and this will happen on both Sony and MS, what I don’t get is if Lockhart exists and is for casuals, then who is it for, when casuals can just play those same games on the cheapest solution?

Hardcore early adopters are sure not going after Lockhart and will b line straight to Anaconda.

Seems like an odd duck.