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Jason Schreier's industry sources: PS5 is superior in ways that Sony has not communicated yet

DForce

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Interesting. And what exactly does “most of the time” mean?

Cerny is an engineer giving a technical talk at GDC and he has no data on how long the clocks can hold at the top number?

No data on how low the clocks can theoretically drop? No data on the precise numerical relationship between workload and decreased performance?

He says “I expect” the clocks won’t drop much but does he explain why?

The workload will be based on the number of instructions necessary to run the game and that will be based on the scope of the game ultimately.

How could Cerny definitively know the scope of every next gen game?

What Cerny needed to say was that there is a floor beneath which the clocks cannot drop regardless of workload.

He didn’t say that did he?
He was clear

It will drop based on workload. All games do not require 10.2TF of GPU power

It will also drop under worst case scenario (running at the highest frequency for both CPU and GPU)

If devs want full 10.2 of TF power with less CPU power, it's there.

I don't know why people try hard to discredit Cerny when he has been perfectly clear on this subject.
 

eastwood333

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I never said it does. No one should behave as a fanboy. That being said, I can understand why the 9.2TF number is used. The leak that indicated 9.2TF was pretty much spot on on the rest of the specs. And at the same time, Sony is being completely vague about the lowest performance numbers. They only want to advertise the max numbers, which works against them at this point. The lowest can be 9.9TF for all we know. But since Sony is being so vague, the only reference point there is, is the 9.2TF.
Yup. It does make sense. It does appear that sony was caught off gard with XSX 12tf when PS5 was only 9.2tf. There comes the variable clocks and frequency idea and upclocking to the very high number it now is to get to the 10.2 number.

Can MS up the XSX clocks given as they're currently underclocked and have room for upclocking according to DF? Could MS replicate a variable clock based on frequency as well? The PC tower like size would probably indicate for a upclock as well. XB1 received an upclock boost around launch time.
 
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eastwood333

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He was clear

It will drop based on workload. All games do not require 10.2TF of GPU power

It will also drop under worst case scenario (running at the highest frequency for both CPU and GPU)

If devs want full 10.2 of TF power with less CPU power, it's there.

I don't know why people try hard to discredit Cerny when he has been perfectly clear on this subject.
Based on workload? People do realize that as a gen goes on, games only get more demanding increasing workloads more and more.
 

Hobbygaming

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I know enough about hardware to not need Digital Foundry to form my views. I do watch them because I find their content interesting. At the same time, they have been caught to base their opinions on who is sponsoring them, but that's another story for another time.


PCs are expected to have less stable performance than a console, because the user can tweak as much/little as he/she wishes. Consoles generally have to go for many years, and the hardware is what it is. The main way to optimize for it and squeeze everything out of it, is to have a set system. If you make things variable, it inevitably makes the optimization more difficult. Sony is known to make things more difficult than necessary though. Look at the PS3....


Obviously, yes. But that was not the point. The point is that the XSX design is in such a way that the cooling is sufficient to run the system at a constant speed at all times. In other words, no part of the hardware is being hampered from working at its max design capacity.
The PS5 is different. The combination of the CPU and GPU are obviously exceeding the cooling capabilities, meaning they have to do some load balancing to keep power usage in check. And even then, the CPU and GPU are less powerful.



I actually suspect that they went with a smaller GPU, because GCN had a scaling issue. The most obvious example was the Vega 56 and Vega 64, where they both performed exactly the same despite the Vega 64 having 14% more CUs. Sony most likely figured out that past 40CUs, scaling was bad, so, they didn't want to risk spending die size and thus cost on a larger GPU. This is why Cerny was talking about the whole clock speed vs CU thing. Apparently RDNA has fixed that though, so, despite their good initial intention, it didn't turn out right for them. If the XSX has issues scaling towards 52 CUs, we'll find out soon enough.



The question is whether this is because of a need, since they are weak in comparison to the XSX specs, or if it really was intended like that from the beginning. The former is more logical, although the second one is not impossible.



Not at all. Having two modes is a sound strategy. SMT also produces additional heat, so, it is simply a logical way of operating things. They are aware that as the years go by, SMT will become more relevant. In the early years, 8 cores are more than enough. The developer can choose either one from the beginning.
In contrast, the whole load balancing the PS5 is doing it by itself. The developers cannot choose, but have to experiment to somehow find the optimal load for each component.
Not to mention there is zero reason to panic for the XSX, considering the specs are higher than the PS5....


In terms of TFLOPS it's over 17% when the PS5 is boosting. So it's at least 17%. Add in the RAM bandwidth difference, and the difference widens quite quickly.
You are right though, that mindshare wise, the PS5 will still outsell the XSX. That has more to do with Sony brand loyalty more than anything else. Look how many people are trying to defend the PS5 in here, vs the ones supporting the XSX...


That's funny. The only viable reply to that, is this meme;


In any case... I'm extremely annoyed at all the threads here trying to defend the PS5, or even try to justify how it is actually superior to the XSX. Maybe if there was some humbleness after the inferior PS5 specs were announced, the PS5 wouldn't be trashed so much. Still, it's a fact that it looks inferior. But some people have issues dealing with that.


That still doesn't change the fact that they have to experimentally determine (i.e. a slow and tedious process) what the optimal way of doing things is.
Was the Xbox One vastly underpowered compared to the PS4 in your opinion?
 

Ascend

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Was the Xbox One vastly underpowered compared to the PS4 in your opinion?
Yes. And so is the Xbox One S. There's a reason the PS4 had basically playable framerates in most games while the Xbox One didn't.
 
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DForce

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Based on workload? People do realize that as a gen goes on, games only get more demanding increasing workloads more and more.
Then you agree that it will stay at 10.2 because the workload will require that much GPU power.
 
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A 1st part game vs C tier 3rd party game? Why not compare Playgrounds new RPG vs HZD :)
There's only one winner there too as Playgrounds new RPG (Fable?) game code is sitting inside an aged and dusty XB1 devkit somewhere on a developers desk. No such shackles for Sony's first party.

Your eyes will bleed witnessing that fancy SSD and exotic architecture being pushed to create new experiences and worlds not possible on 8-year old hardware. You should praise the sun Sony hasnt enforced such a backwards move honestly.
 

eastwood333

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There's only one winner there too as Playgrounds new RPG (Fable?) game code is sitting inside an aged and dusty XB1 devkit somewhere on a developers desk. No such shackles for Sony's first party.

Your eyes will bleed witnessing that fancy SSD and exotic architecture being pushed to create new experiences and worlds not possible on 8-year old hardware. You should praise the sun Sony hasnt enforced such a backwards move honestly.
Wrong. Playgrounds new ip is still yrs away. It has never been confirmed as a XB1 title. Get your info correct
 

eastwood333

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So, it's a theory when Mark Cerny says it?

You guys just need to stop it. lol
When he says " i think" then yes, its not absolute like XSX's locked clocks. Its in theory and has to be put in practice by the industry.Its a tech guy hyping is own design, just like MS hyped the XB1 design and it special esram, etc after the backlash of the competitors console have the clear win in raw specs.Turns out, the esram was not the savior MS envisioned.

Let the games do the talking. Applying variable clocks based on frequencies is not a difficult task that i'm MS could mimmick. However, MS doesn't have the need to do that for a reason. Locked clocks are more reliable,predicatable and it will show in the games.
 
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Ascend

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Interesting, but we'll see its power at the PS5 reveal :)
Maybe I should elaborate a bit. The graphical power difference was quite big. The CPU advantage of the Xbox One couldn't really be seen in most games simply because the GPU was the limiting factor. There were some instances though that the CPU did give the XO some leeway, particularly in open world games where the CPU has more work. So 'vastly' is a bit exaggerated, but the difference was significant enough for the XO to need either lesser graphical details, or suffer framerate dips below 30fps more regularly than vice versa.

In case of the PS5 and XSX I'd say the difference is bigger, despite percentage wise the difference between the PS4/XO being larger than the XSX/PS5, because there is no CPU advantage either way (assuming the PS5 can also do SMT), and the GPU is clearly superior in one over the other (assuming AMD fixed their large CU scaling issue).
 
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eastwood333

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I dunno so what exclusives will show the power of Series X in the first 1 or 2 years and compete with PS5's?
Halo 6,Hellblade 2,Forza next for starters. It's called scaleing. It's been going on for yrs in PC/console development. For instance, Halo 6 on XSX will have RT, more enemies on screen, better framerates, higher resolutions at much higher settings, faster load times, better draw distance and on it goes.
 
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DForce

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When he says " i think" then yes. Its a tech guy hyping is own design, just like MS hyped the XB1 design and it special esram, etc after the backlash of the competitors console have the clear win in raw specs.

Let the games do the talking. Applying variable clocks based on frequencies is not a difficult task that i'm MS could mimmick. However, MS doesn't have the need to do that for a reason. Locked clocks are more reliable,predicatable and it will show in the games.
It's not even the same. You're trying too hard to prove this will not run at 10.2TF when needed.

ESRAM had it's limitations.

If devs want the GPU power and less CPU power, there's nothing else that states it will drop it outside of workload.

You tried to tell me as the generation goes on, games are going to get more demanding. So? still doesn't change workloads.
 

DForce

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Stop what? XSX is the clear winner in terms of power. That is not going to change.
Where was I talking about the XSX?

Looks like you felt attack so you brought up XsX. We're talking about workloads on the PS5 GPU and you're trying your best to make it appear like it's going to be bad.
 
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eastwood333

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It's not even the same. You're trying too hard to prove this will not run at 10.2TF when needed.

ESRAM had it's limitations.

If devs want the GPU power and less CPU power, there's nothing else that states it will drop it outside of workload.

You tried to tell me as the generation goes on, games are going to get more demanding. So? still doesn't change workloads.
And I can argue you guys are trying too hard to overplay PS5 weaker spec and SSD.

You missed my point. Point is, whether its MSs esram or PS5 SSD/variable clocks idea to being the savior to even the odds vs the more powerful machine is more to do with PR until proven when the games come.
 
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lynux3

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Halo 6,Hellblade 2,Forza next for starters. It's called scaleing. It's been going on for yrs in PC/console development. For instance, Halo 6 on XSX will have RT, more enemies on screen, better framerates, higher resolutions at much higher settings, faster load times, better draw distance and on it goes.
He said exclusives, though.
 

eastwood333

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He said exclusives, though.
They are console exclusive. HZD is coming to PC along with many others that have(Death Stranding,Quantic Dreams games) or will in the future. including MLB The Show. So if u want to play that game, exlude HZD2 as it will inevitably come to PC etc. :)
 

DForce

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And I can argue you guys are trying too hard to overplay PS5 weaker spec and SSD.

You missed my point. Point is, whether its MSs esram or PS5 SSD/variable clocks idea to being the savior to even the odds vs the more powerful machine is more to do with PR until proven when the games come.
We're talking about the PS5 and you keep bringing up the XsX when it has nothing to do with this conversation. It's like you feel like your beloved console is being attack when we're talking about frequencies.

You downplayed the SSD
Now you're downplaying the 10TF count.

No one is overplaying anything, you're just looking for anyway to make the PS5 appear worse than it actually is.

PS5 has its advantages, so does the XsX.
 

ElCasual

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So who is lier?
Jason with his " The developers says PS5 is more powerful" or the former Sony developer?
 

eastwood333

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So who is lier?
Jason with his " The developers says PS5 is more powerful" or the former Sony developer?
Jason isn't saying PS5 is overall more powerful. He's stating devs claim PS5 has wins over XSX. What are these wins? SSD? 3D audio? Who are these devs? Audio programers? VR devs? Who knows.

And DF states XSX is more powerful. Nobody is questioning that XSX is more powerful. It is. The debate is by HOW MUCH!
 
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Halo 6,Hellblade 2,Forza next for starters. It's called scaleing. It's been going on for yrs in PC/console development. For instance, Halo 6 on XSX will have RT, more enemies on screen, better framerates, higher resolutions at much higher settings, faster load times, better draw distance and on it goes.
Those games have never set graphical benchmarks aside from Halo (Halo 1), and they wont do it as cross gen titles.

Halo 1 was mind blowing because it was exclusive, lest you forget.
 

Deeper Underground

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Yup. It does make sense. It does appear that sony was caught off gard with XSX 12tf when PS5 was only 9.2tf. There comes the variable clocks and frequency idea and upclocking to the very high number it now is to get to the 10.2 number.

Can MS up the XSX clocks given as they're currently underclocked and have room for upclocking according to DF? Could MS replicate a variable clock based on frequency as well? The PC tower like size would probably indicate for a upclock as well. XB1 received an upclock boost around launch time.
Holy shit. How long are you people going to keep perpetuating this bullshit agenda? Sony didn’t “get caught with their pants down”. Do you people not realize how long it takes to plan and fabricate the chips needed for this? Sony didn’t see MS’s presentation and then said, “Ayup guys we need to lie to developers and push the GPU to the maximum so we don’t look bad vs MS!” Thats idiotic, especially considering the Github tests were back in summer of 2019. They had been planning this for a while. I just find it hilarious that variable clocks that aren’t as variable as you make it seem don’t matter, but you are up here asking if MS can up the clocks at the last minute. Why would they do that and risk messing with their system?
 
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Ascend

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Every time something other than the PlayStation is more powerful, there comes a whole armada of how the other consoles is not really significantly more powerful, if at all. In fact, there is always something that makes the apparent weaker console actually more powerful!

PS2 slower than Gamecube and Xbox? Doesn't matter! PS2 has the most powerful experiences!
PS3 slower than X360? Doesn't matter! Da Powah Oof Da Cell!
PS4 Pro slower than Xbox One X? Doesn't matter! VR Bruh!
PS5 slower than the Xbox Series X? Doesn't matter! Twice as fast SSD will overpower the Xbox!
 
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kaylord

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All this bickering and denial was fun for a bit but now it's getting sad and annoying. PS fans should just accept that they won't have the most technically impressive system and enjoy the games anyways; if it really is about the games.

Ah fuck who am I kidding this shits gonna last longer than the pandemic at this rate.
I'm a PlayStation fan and I approve this message 💯
 

Goliathy

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Holy shit. How long are you people going to keep perpetuating this bullshit agenda? Sony didn’t “get caught with their pants down”. Do you people not realize how long it takes to plan and fabricate the chips needed for this? Sony didn’t see MS’s presentation and then said, “Ayup guys we need to lie to developers and push the GPU to the maximum so we don’t look bad vs MS!” Thats idiotic, especially considering the Github tests were back in summer of 2019. They had been planning this for a while. I just find it hilarious that variable clocks that aren’t as variable as you make it seem don’t matter, but you are up here asking if MS can up the clocks at the last minute. Why would they do that and risk messing with their system?
Lets say it’s true then:

- why did they overclock the clocks so much?
- why aren’t they able to fix the clocks? Why variable?
- why didn’t they even show us the console yet? PS4 has been shown back then much earlier?
- why did it even take so long to tell us ANYTHING AT about the ps5?

One possible reason: Last minute change!
or: they are are still releasing Some games like the last of us part II, if so, theN why did they have a live YouTube stream with „the road to ps5“?
 
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ElCasual

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Jason isn't saying PS5 is overall more powerful. He's stating devs claim PS5 has wins over XSX. What are these wins? SSD? 3D audio? Who are these devs? Audio programers? VR devs? Who knows.

And DF states XSX is more powerful. Nobody is questioning that XSX is more powerful. It is. The debate is by HOW MUCH!
Good point. Thanks
 

Deeper Underground

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Every time something other than the PlayStation is more powerful, there comes a whole armada of how the other consoles is not really significantly more powerful, if at all. In fact, there is always something that makes the apparent weaker console actually more powerful!

PS2 slower than Gamecube and Xbox? Doesn't matter! PS2 has the most powerful experiences!
PS3 slower than X360? Doesn't matter! Da Powah Oof Da Cell!
PS4 Pro slower than Xbox One X? Doesn't matter! VR Bruh!
PS5 slower than the Xbox Series X? Doesn't matter! Twice as fast SSD will overpower the Xbox!
lol Show us on the doll where Sony touched you. You know what’s funny? All those years of Xbox being “stronger” and it didn’t matter shit when it came to sales. Oh, nice not mentioning the PS4 too. You warriors slay me. Ignored.
 

DForce

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Every time something other than the PlayStation is more powerful, there comes a whole armada of how the other consoles is not really significantly more powerful, if at all. In fact, there is always something that makes the apparent weaker console actually more powerful!

PS2 slower than Gamecube and Xbox? Doesn't matter! PS2 has the most powerful experiences!
PS3 slower than X360? Doesn't matter! Da Powah Oof Da Cell!
PS4 Pro slower than Xbox One X? Doesn't matter! VR Bruh!
PS5 slower than the Xbox Series X? Doesn't matter! Twice as fast SSD will overpower the Xbox!
Xbox One slower? I pick better frame-rate over resolution any day of the weak! (XB1 had better frame-rate in some games)

Exclusives? Gamers don't care about exclusives! It's about multiplats!
PS Now? They can't compete with xCLoud. MS severs are so much better! When Sony jumps on the same severs, the narrative changed to, "MS has studios working on a lot of projects. They can't compete with day one releases."

Now exclusives matter again? :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Sales? Sales don't matter. But wait, they think now that they have the power crown, MS is going to win in sales because what happened in 2013 won't happen again.


Narratives changes all the time, but I haven't seen anyone outside the Xbox fan base change it so many times this generation.
 

Goliathy

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Jason isn't saying PS5 is overall more powerful. He's stating devs claim PS5 has wins over XSX. What are these wins? SSD? 3D audio? Who are these devs? Audio programers? VR devs? Who knows.

And DF states XSX is more powerful. Nobody is questioning that XSX is more powerful. It is. The debate is by HOW MUCH!
Doesn’t even need to be hardware wise. Maybe it has a better SDK, better controller, better OS, better pricing, better developer tools, better power consumption. Could be better
 

Ascend

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lol Show us on the doll where Sony touched you. You know what’s funny? All those years of Xbox being “stronger” and it didn’t matter shit when it came to sales. Oh, nice not mentioning the PS4 too. You warriors slay me. Ignored.
The PS4 was stronger than the Xbox One, which is why it wasn't included. It was quite clear that I was pointing out instances when the PS was the weaker console, which is pretty much every generation except one.

It is true that it didn't matter much for the console sales. Neither did the RROD, which is one of the biggest failures in console gaming history. If we count game sales, that tells quite another story, especially in the X360 vs PS3 generation. It's almost as if some people buy their console to brag about it rather than playing on it.

Narratives changes all the time, but I haven't seen anyone outside the Xbox fan base change it so many times this generation.
Really? Remember last week when it was all about the TFLOPS and today TFLOPS talk is taboo? That's technically not really a change though. You're right. The PS fan base has always stayed the same, with their constant goal post shifting.
 

DForce

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The PS4 was stronger than the Xbox One, which is why it wasn't included. It was quite clear that I was pointing out instances when the PS was the weaker console, which is pretty much every generation except one.

It is true that it didn't matter much for the console sales. Neither did the RROD, which is one of the biggest failures in console gaming history. If we count game sales, that tells quite another story, especially in the X360 vs PS3 generation. It's almost as if some people buy their console to brag about it rather than playing on it.


Really? Remember last week when it was all about the TFLOPS and today TFLOPS talk is taboo? That's technically not really a change though. You're right. The PS fan base has always stayed the same, with their constant goal post shifting.
Never claimed Sony fans didn't change their narrative.

I said I haven't seen a fan base change their narrative AS MUCH as Xbox fans this generation.

Xbox One was weaker
DX12 and the cloud was a thing.
Then it wasn't
Then the Xbox One X came along.

Sales mattered when the Xbox One S released and one a few straight NPDs and then they thought Xbox One X was going to take over in terms of sales and the turned out not to be true.

Again, I never said Sony fans didn't. I just keep seeing Xbox fans change it more often.
 

BattleScar

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Lets say it’s true then:

- why did they overclock the clocks so much?
The chip isn't "overclocked". You can't rely on an overclock in consoles, because of chip-to-chip variance. No two bits of silicon are identical. Some will need higher voltages to reach the same frequency as others. With overclocking, your result depends on the quality of your sample. One person may get a much higher overclock than another, because the quality of that particular chip is that much higher, so they need to run it at a lower vcore to get higher frequencies.
So again, no its not an overclock. If Sony says the PS5 can run at 2.23GHz, that means every single PS5 chip they make will have to be able to reach 2.23GHz so that every single PS5 user gets the same repeatable performance. That 2.23 GHz, even with variable frequencies, must account for chip-to-chip variance.

- why aren’t they able to fix the clocks? Why variable?
Cause they want to stretch the maximum frequency, to get better shader, texture, raster performance. They probably can fix frequencies at 2.23GHz, but they don't want to have too high power consumption/heat output.
Either you can have fixed power, variable frequencies, or you can have fixed frequencies and variable power.
As Cerny stated in his video, they chose a fixed power consumption. Because Power = Heat, that means that there won't be situations where the cooling solution is overburdened. The downside is, under certain workloads which stress the GPU, it will have to downclock by a couple % to stay within the power limit.

- why didn’t they even show us the console yet? PS4 has been shown back then much earlier?
Incorrect. Sony didn't show the PS4 until E3 2012 in June.

- why did it even take so long to tell us ANYTHING AT about the ps5?

One possible reason: Last minute change!
or: they are are still releasing Some games like the last of us part II, if so, theN why did they have a live YouTube stream with „the road to ps5“?
They planned to have a keynote at GDC. GDC got cancelled, so they repurposed that keynote into Cerny's video. The plan was always GDC. That was when they wanted to show it off.
You're seeing phantoms where there are none.
 

B-universe

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So who is lier?
Jason with his " The developers says PS5 is more powerful" or the former Sony developer?
There needs not to be a liar.

Jason could very well have heard from his sources that the PS5 is superior, while the former Sony dev genuinely disagrees.

People can be sincerely wrong.
 

Ascend

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Never claimed Sony fans didn't change their narrative.

I said I haven't seen a fan base change their narrative AS MUCH as Xbox fans this generation.

Xbox One was weaker
DX12 and the cloud was a thing.
Then it wasn't
Then the Xbox One X came along.

Sales mattered when the Xbox One S released and one a few straight NPDs and then they thought Xbox One X was going to take over in terms of sales and the turned out not to be true.

Again, I never said Sony fans didn't. I just keep seeing Xbox fans change it more often.
Fair enough. I find the Sony fans more annoying though. There are so many of them...
 
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Elenchus

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He was clear

It will drop based on workload. All games do not require 10.2TF of GPU power

It will also drop under worst case scenario (running at the highest frequency for both CPU and GPU)

If devs want full 10.2 of TF power with less CPU power, it's there.

I don't know why people try hard to discredit Cerny when he has been perfectly clear on this subject.
It will drop “how much”?

And what does “worst case scenario” mean?

Does that mean there is a floor (i.e. a bottom number)?

Did he share that? If not, why not?

All reasonable questions that should not be met with such hostility.

He’s not a pastor and we’re not his flock.

Blind faith should be a requirement to post here.
 
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DForce

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It will drop “how much”?

And what does “worst case scenario” mean?

Does that mean there is a floor (i.e. a bottom number)?

Did he share that? If not, why not?

All reasonable questions that should not be met with such hostility.

He’s not a pastor and we’re not his flock.

Blind faith should be a requirement to post here.
You're asking what worst case scenario means when its explained in the article you quoted? Literally says in the article if both are maxing out their top frequencies.

How much it will drop based on workload? If BC games can run at 4K 60fps, then the workload would be less than a one of the most demanding games for next generation.

A 1440P game on the PS4 will hit 4K with less workload. That means that extra GPU power will not be used, thus lowering the frequency.

It really doesn't matter what the base frequency is.

If a dev wants to use GPU power over max CPU power with no issue, then it doesn't matter what the bottom clock is. Seems like people want to use this as proof that the console is not 10.2TF when they can use that much power if they wanted to.