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[Reindeer]

DF spoke DIRECTLY to Cerny and they state otherwise. You need to take emotion out of it and deal with the facts. Cerny wouldn’t even describe the cooling or show the box working so nothing he said goes beyond theory at this point. He didn’t describe how low the clocks can drop. He simply stated his expectations without explaining the basis for them.

But fanboys read what they wanna read and glance over the stuff that doesn't fit their narrative.

 

[MilkyJoe]

But fanboys read what they wanna read and glance over the stuff that doesn't fit their narrative.

Fanboys stupidly believe 12 is a greater amount than 10?

 

[Bladed Thesis]

I fully believe in the PS5 and the SSD but come on let's not suddenly pass of JS comments and tweets as anything more than him trying to grab a few likes/shares/interactions. The guy was spouting stuff we now know to be total bullshit less than 30 days ago.

Everybody speculating and throwing their favorite plastic box on top of the food chain before we even know the whole story is laughable. Be patient and let's wait for the consoles to launch, the game lineups to be announced and launch and then comparisons and whatnot. But even then, just realize BOTH CONSOLES LOOK TO BE AWESOME AND BOTH WILL PLAY GREAT GAMES FOR THE NEXT 5-7 YEARS. How about we celebrate that instead of downplaying the other side as fanboys.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Fanboys stupidly believe 12 is a greater amount than 10?

 

[JägerSeNNA]

What kind of secret sauce is this? He is so excited about PS5. Does anybody has any idea about this game changer features?

 

[TBiddy]

You don’t know that. It’s all “theoretical“ at this point. If you truly believe XSX is 12.1 sustained, then the PS5 is 10.3 sustained as well.

One has locked clocks and one does not.

 

[B-universe]

I think one is able to separate Schreier's politics from his ability to source info. Just because one disagrees with his political bent, that doesn't mean one cannot acknowlege when he gets the facts right.

 

[Reindeer]

Fanboys stupidly believe 12 is a greater amount than 10?

 

[HawarMiran]

The Ps4 pro runs like a jet in boost mode. I have no sound problems when it runs normally. That's good design in my book. Besides its a mid gen refresh. And you calling the SSD overkill made me laugh. He clearly thought it was better to invest more into the SSD than the GPU and if you think he is retarded enough to think loading times are more important than in game performance I don't know what to tell you. Surely their must be a reason for his choices?


Source?

Just guessing....

 

[YOU PC BRO?!]

PS5 boost is limited by power budget, That means you can use water cooling mod, by droping the temperature transistor rezistancy will go down = less power consumption = bigger power budget= better boost = additional FPS.

Yes it's works like that.
GamerNexus or other PC group will check this.

Thats actually a really great point.

Even though SmartShift is in play I wonder if there is a absolute temp hard cap in place? You would think there would be some limit to stop the thing from melting. Taking it further, if variable resolution is utilised due to the variable clocks I wonder if water-cooling will remove the hard cap and due to lower transistor resistance as you suggested allow more stable resolutions and FPS. Would be cool if the GPU under those circumstances would boost past the 2.3GHz limit. Be interesting to see a breakdown and benchmarks.

 

[Deeper Underground]

One has locked clocks and one does not.

Do you honestly believe that the XSX will NEVER downclock ever for both heat and power?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Well, they asked 4,000 industry professionals. Can you tell me how many of them received a PS5 Devkit?

Zero of course, completely a secret . C’mon mate, is this really where you want to take a stand?

 

[Bladed Thesis]

I think one is able to separate Schreier's politics from his ability to source info. Just because one disagrees with his political bent, that doesn't mean one cannot acknowlege when he gets the facts right.

Problem is he's not presenting facts. He's presenting rumors from a source without giving the source and we've been down this road before with him. He had tons of other rumors 1-2 months before the PS5 presentation that basically contradict the reality that was revealed. He passed his mistake off as "I was just relaying what was said to me" and he's doing the same here. Relaying information he was supposedly given.

That's not what a fact is.

 

[TBiddy]

Do you honestly believe that the XSX will NEVER downclock ever for both heat and power?

How many consoles have done that, historically?

 

[Panajev2001a]

PS5 boost is limited by power budget, That means you can use water cooling mod, by droping the temperature transistor rezistancy will go down = less power consumption = bigger power budget= better boost = additional FPS.

Yes it's works like that.
GamerNexus or other PC group will check this.

Even though they specifically said it in the stream that is not temperature based, but workload type and utilisation against a specific unit agnostic profile (which would make your scenario not work at all)?!

 

[eastwood333]

What ever happened to the Klee guy?

 

[Deeper Underground]

How many consoles have done that, historically?

Come now darling, you really must do more research.

https://www.mcvuk.com/business-news...-up-fans-to-keep-itself-from-overheating/amp/

Microsoft has hinted at the possibility of Xbox One downclocking itself to protect itself from overheating.

This is very similar to how gaming PCs protect themselves from high temperatures. The first step such a machine will take if it feels that its components are getting too warm is ramp up the fans – be that the case fans, CPU cooler or graphics cards fans.

 

[eastwood333]

Fanboys stupidly believe 12 is a greater amount than 10?

Only if it has the super duper fast SSD.

 

[TBiddy]

Come now darling, you really must do more research.

https://www.mcvuk.com/business-news...-up-fans-to-keep-itself-from-overheating/amp/

Wait, what? Are you actually comparing power saving mode with downclocking because of thermal (or too much power being used) issues?

That's just silly, "darling".

And yes - every console will cut power if things get out of hand. That's not the same as having variable clock speed.

 

[eastwood333]

Come now darling, you really must do more research.

https://www.mcvuk.com/business-news...-up-fans-to-keep-itself-from-overheating/amp/

This doesn't bold well for the PS5 then given how high the clocks are. This just supports the reasoning for MS's XSX higher CU count at much lower speeds. Case in point, XSX is designed to not need a variable clock rate since they are already clocked low. More CU's at lower clocks produces more bang for your buck with less cooling issues.

And I wouldn't be surprised if MS increases the clocks a bit more in the near future (upping the 12.1 teraflop count further) given that DF states that XSX may have room to.

 

[geordiemp]

Fanboys stupidly believe 12 is a greater amount than 10?

Correct 12 shader performance is greater than 10. Nice simple numbers , not too complicated.

People trying to expand fanboys closed minds that performance is not just shaders is really hard work, and maybe consider that there is more to this,.



why bother ?

 

[TBiddy]

This doesn't bold well for the PS5 then given how high the clocks are. This just supports the reasoning for variable clocks vs XSX higher CU count as much lower speeds. Case in point, XSX is designed to not need a variable clock rate since they are already clocked low.

Indeed. Microsoft enabled the throttling in the XB1 (and marketed it) as a way of reassuring the public after the RROD debacle. Going from that to arguing that the XSX will downclock like the PS5 is... well, to be blunt, laughable and bordering on FUD. Especially after they've repeatedly stated it was locked, unlike Cerny who repeatedly stated the clock in the PS5 was variable.

 

[B-universe]

Problem is he's not presenting facts. He's presenting rumors from a source without giving the source and we've been down this road before with him. He had tons of other rumors 1-2 months before the PS5 presentation that basically contradict the reality that was revealed. He passed his mistake off as "I was just relaying what was said to me" and he's doing the same here. Relaying information he was supposedly given.

That's not what a fact is.

You'll have to either take or decline his word for it.
He claims getting the info from industry sources. Even if the content turns out to miss the mark by a mile, it could still be a fact he got it from industry sources, which, journalistic standards prevailing, are usually not to be disclosed. It seems to me he openly admits he's relaying into, not publishing official Sony Gospel.

 

[Panajev2001a]

This doesn't bold well for the PS5 then given how high the clocks are. This just supports the reasoning for MS's XSX higher CU count at much lower speeds. Case in point, XSX is designed to not need a variable clock rate since they are already clocked low. More CU's at lower clocks produces more bang for your buck with less cooling issues.

Does not bode well? That sounds a bit like a concerned PS fan right here huh?

More CU’s at low clocks or less CU’s at higher clocks are two valid design choices unless you want to believe that they just increased voltage and frequency last minute and are panicking now with power spiralling out of control.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Indeed. Microsoft enabled the throttling in the XB1 (and marketed it) as a way of reassuring the public after the RROD debacle. Going from that to arguing that the XSX will downclock like the PS5 is... well, to be blunt, laughable and bordering on FUD. Especially after they've repeatedly stated it was locked, unlike Cerny who repeatedly stated the clock in the PS5 was variable.

Yes, trying to imply XSX has a variable clock-speed quoting emergency thermal throttling to prevent console meltdown as evidence would be disingenuous at best.

I do not think it is what Deeper Underground was saying though.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Only if it has the super duper fast SSD.

Boring trolling, you won the TFLOPS number race, get over it .

 

[Rightisright]

PS5's higher clocks and going narrow and fast will give it some advantages like higher fill rate, faster cache and less GPU idle time combined with its blazing SSD

But the XSX will still have a higher pixel fill rate than the PS5.

 

[Jon Neu]

You should check your hearing, because you hear stupid shit.

It is nothing like cell situation, but I guess people like you just lack the knowledge and understanding so it is waste of time trying to explain.

CELL: difficult to use 100%, expensive, hard to code in games, not praised by devs, made things harder

PS5 ssd: the opposite

"Sounds like cell".. stupidest thing I have read today

Watch out, we got a badass over here.

Cell was also “revolutionary” and also “needed time” to extract it’s full potential. The exact same is being said about the SSD. I understand you don't want anything bad said about your precious PS5, but the similarities are there, like it or not.

By the way, I remember devs praising cell non stop before the PS3 launched. So there you have it, another paralelism.

 

[Jon Neu]

They're still limited with what they can do since the Xbox Series X will be capped with speeds.

That has to be seen yet.

 

[Panajev2001a]

But the XSX will still have a higher pixel fill rate than the PS5.

ROPS are in the CU so yes, that is correct. The advantage is for all the logic outside of the CU’s: command processor/HW scheduler, ACE for async compute, shared CU caches, Geometry Engine, Triangle Setup/rasterisation logic, etc...

Funny thing is that PS4 Pro also has a non trivial ROPS advantage too.

 

[TBiddy]

Yes, trying to imply XSX has a variable clock-speed quoting emergency thermal throttling to prevent console meltdown as evidence would be disingenuous at best.

I do not think it is what Deeper Underground was saying though.

Could be that was not what he meant. But why link the article then?

MS has stated over and over, that the clocks are locked, while Sony has presented a variable clock solution. I can't remember any previous consoles using a variable clock, but I'm also getting old.

 

[DForce]

That has to be seen yet.

And how do you know the SSDs they provide will be much, much faster outside of their storage space?

They still have to work with the base consoles in line if that were to happen.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Watch out, we got a badass over here.

Cell was also “revolutionary” and also “needed time” to extract it’s full potential. The exact same is being said about the SSD. I understand you don't want anything bad said about your precious PS5, but the similarities are there, like it or not.

By the way, I remember devs praising cell non stop before the PS3 launched. So there you have it, another paralelism.

You are implying causality but presenting coincidence. Leave it at that.

CELL was an evolutionary dead end, but it had plenty of good ideas, patterns, and the HW when tamed was indeed mind blowing and fast, but it was the wrong option at the wrong time for a variety of reasons.

As the frequency and transistor scaling keep slowing down and cost for new processes keeps going up, prepare to see those tough architectures making a come back: tools and developers will be more prepared thanks to CELL and surge GPGPU/async compute.

 

[McCheese]

Do you honestly believe that the XSX will NEVER downclock ever for both heat and power?

It better not considering it'll be running up-ports of Xbox S games for the next 2 years.

/s

 

[Jon Neu]

You are implying causality but presenting coincidence. Leave it at that.

I'm implying similarities, both in the claims, the PR, the praising of the “devs”, etc...

I was there when Cell was advised as revolutionary, also by “devs”.

At the end of the day, what matters are the results.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'm implying similarities, both in the claims, the PR, the praising of the “devs”, etc...

I was there when Cell was advised as revolutionary, also by “devs”.

At the end of the day, what matters are the results.

Unless you own a time machine you are taking out of your posterior and trying to imply things in a way not even as scientific as rhabdomancy.

I already replied to the CELL issue, but I am not sure you bothered reading that at all. I like to discuss it, but not speaking to the wind mate.

 

[eastwood333]

Does not bode well? That sounds a bit like a concerned PS fan right here huh?

More CU’s at low clocks or less CU’s at higher clocks are two valid design choices unless you want to believe that they just increased voltage and frequency last minute and are panicking now with power spiralling out of control.

Its common sense that lower CU's with dialed up high clocks raises more potential heating issues, hence PS5's need for variable clocks.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Its common sense that lower CU's with dialed up high clocks raises more potential heating issues, hence PS5's need for variable clocks.

It depends on how the extra clocks have been achieved and how the design has been tuned to minimise power consumption under load. It is likely Sony worked on a very high frequency optimised version of a semi-custom RDNA2 with AND and their fab partners still optimising the 7nm process and have designed the cooling accordingly (advantage of a fixed power consumption design).

If you resort to increase the voltage you do get a worse than linear scaling in power consumption, but adding more and more CU’s running at a still high clock presents power consumption issues too. If they optimised the design for that frequency and can scale it down and are able to drop voltage they also drop power consumption greatly without losing a lot in frequency.

PS5’s GPU was not overclocked by an extra 1 GHz the day before doubling the XSX frequency or anywhere near (in the same manufacturing pro, they have quite a fair amount of CU’s and still target a lower peak figure.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Correct 12 shader performance is greater than 10. Nice simple numbers , not too complicated.

People trying to expand fanboys closed minds that performance is not just shaders is really hard work, and maybe consider that there is more to this,.



why bother ?

You'll get another go in 6 to 7 years

 

[geordiemp]

I'll pass the net bust high clock low cuda/cu core advice to nvidia and AMD. I'm sure they will totally revamp their line up to 1/2 cores at twice the core speed what could go wrong the P4 and bulldozer team will go down as the best in history am I right.

Nvidia heard you about boost clocks did you design the RTX series for Nvidia ?

Imagine working in reverse of below so 2.2 to 2.1 or something when it hits spikes, or using spare CPU power as its an APU and this happens many times per second.

But dont know why I bother, your interest in Ps5 is called concern trolling .

 

[Deto]

how is he wrong though?
Let’s see:
1. The RAM IS that fast and faster than PS5.
true or false?
True based on specs released.

false


PS5: 12,40GB/s per cu

SX:

Best case: 10,77GB/s per CU
worst case: 6,46GB/s per CU

averange ~9,15GB/s

memory feeds the CUs.

 

[Hobbygaming]

But the XSX will still have a higher pixel fill rate than the PS5.

If the rops end up the same, PS5 will have more giga pixels though

 

[V4skunk]

+17% tf
+3% cpu

"considerably"

developers >>>> youtubers

That isn't a "considerable" power advantage though. What do you class ps4 vs Xbone?

 

[quest]

That isn't a "considerable" power advantage though. What do you class ps4 vs Xbone?

Embarrassing and thankfully got leadership and direction changed to people who are competent.

 

[Reindeer]

That isn't a "considerable" power advantage though. What do you class ps4 vs Xbone?

Xbox One was an embarrassment and very underpowered, only a fool will deny this.

 

[Deto]

That isn't a "considerable" power advantage though. What do you class ps4 vs Xbone?

1,3 vs 1.8TF

+40%TF

40% > 17%

 

[eastwood333]

1,3 vs 1.8TF

+40%TF

40% > 17%

Problem with that figure is that the 17% is not an absolute figure. With variable clocks, the margin can be anywhere from 12.1tf vs 9.2-10.2 tf. XSX's clocks are absolute. Locked in. PS5's is variable clocks. Its variable for a reason. You are assuming it will run at maximum 100% of the time.

 

[Deto]

x2 sorry

 

[Deto]

Problem with that figure is that the 17% is not an absolute figure. With variable clocks, the margin can be anywhere from 12.1tf vs 9.2-10.2 tf. XSX's clocks are absolute. Locked in. PS5's is variable clocks. Its variable for a reason. You are assuming it will run at maximum 100% of the time.

"When that worst case game arrives, it will run at a lower clock speed. But not too much lower, to reduce power by 10 per cent it only takes a couple of percent reduction in frequency, so I'd expect any downclocking to be pretty minor,"


Worst case cited, HZD map
60h of gameplay, I must have looked at the map 15min in total, so pretty minor.

 

[-kb-]

"When that worst case game arrives, it will run at a lower clock speed. But not too much lower, to reduce power by 10 per cent it only takes a couple of percent reduction in frequency, so I'd expect any downclocking to be pretty minor,"

Thanks for posting this, it seems like no one actually understands how this works in practise.