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Jeff Grubb: Devs Fawning over PS5. Haven't heard the same praise for XSX, but heard nothing bad

Trueblakjedi

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Games for next gen I think ps5 will be better with large assets, SSD streaming and Graphics pushing need for > 10 GB and fast small traingle high quality rendering (like Ue5) . I think XSX will struggle with its bloated DX12 apis

Funny we have seen not fast loading or streaming capability yet for XSX, lots of words and hot air, nothing else. If I missed it, show me the demo link ?

I think current gen games (cross gen) will run slighly better on XSX where gaimg is primarily running from RAM and minimal streaming (but not 15 %, there is api bloat to consider)
How is loading a highly optimized 8 second bit of gameplay in .8 seconds so demonstrably better than loading a totally off the shelf whole game which normally takes 45 seconds to load in 6 seconds?

In the optimized case its a factor of 10x.

In the unoptimized case its a factor of 8x.

Are you being honest here?
 
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Swadedtx

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Xbox series X Gameplay Reveal!

Except not running on Xbox lol.
And no gameplay!

Who is lying exactly?

The only thing it revealed is that MS is not ready for next gen. But here - have some BC so you can play the xb1 games no one wanted when they were released while you’re patiently waiting years for content.

What a strategy that is rofl
The worst part is Microsoft has a new studio with talent called the initiative but...... The rumor is they are working on Perfect Dark.... Is that really what Microsoft fans want???
 

azertydu91

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That's not what he said. He said and I quote.

"Sony’s storage architecture is far ahead of “the best SSD solution you can buy on PC today."

This is true, but just barely, and in a matter of months it won't be true whatsoever. I mean is no one going to address the reality that Sony's SSD can just be removed from the system and replaced with a PC M.2 drive? I mean you're removing this crazy custom SSD that only Sony could ever dream of creating and replacing with an off the shelf part, and it will work just fine replacing it entirely, and I'm supposed to take all this off the wall PR seriously?

Come on guys...

He's even said that he doesn't understand most of what his engineers are capable of doing, and that they're wizards. He's a pretty humble guy who obviously transitioned from developer to owner and didn't stay in the trenches.
Let me guess 10% is a small difference but 15 % is HUGE ?... Not even accounting the whole IO architecture.And please answer my previous.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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But it is. Last year, Cerny said there is no SSD available on the market right now. And till this date, he is still right. Btw., that Sabren SSD won't work in PS5 because it's still slow. Maybe Samsumg 980 Pro will get the certificate for PS5
And that's accurate, but PC tech is moving faster than anything Sony or Microsoft is doing. These M.2 drives which bury both will be on the shelves before either system releases.

Same goes for Ampere, RDNA 2 discrete GPU's, Ryzen 4000 series etc.
 
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Tulipanzo

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He's even said that he doesn't understand most of what his engineers are capable of doing, and that they're wizards. He's a pretty humble guy who obviously transitioned from developer to owner and didn't stay in the trenches.
Woah, that's amazing!

I thought that guy sipping Popeyes at the tech demo was him, but it must have been an engineer with the same name.

Clearly he wouldn't know as much as "unnamed Chinese presenter running an mp4".
 
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DynamiteCop!

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Man people really bought that Epic stuff hook, link, and sinker. It's blatantly obvious they have a marketing deal. Same situation as that Scorn dev talking about the PS5 SSD.
Even if it's not a marketing deal it's a partnership and Sweeney is running laps to ensure the integrity of what is shown and said merely pertains to Sony.

I don't know the ends to this relationship but he's definitely going out of his way to protect the flow of information.
 
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Trueblakjedi

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Great, but this was demonstrated to millions of viewers. You're telling us that this was Microsoft's best effort to show to the public? A multi billion dollar company. (FYI..Sony's Spiderman loading/city demo was never meant to be public.)
It was CLEARLY meant to show how even if you DID NOTHING.. the game loaded 8x faster... If you did nothing but load up the old game on an xsx. No API changes, tweaking or anything. yester on the xone 45 seconds. today on xsx 6 seconds... why is that not interesting?

That's very impressive.
 

Trueblakjedi

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Using reconstruction to 4K and 60 FPS, neither console is powerful enough for full Ray tracing without killing everything else in the game.

I am fine with that, the lighting in UE5 demo is good enough for me.
Minecraft says that you are wrong. Zero rasterization. 100% path traced. still ran better than a 2080 without DLSS....

So what you are saying is demonstrated to be just untrue.
 

cyber69

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That's not what he said. He said and I quote.

"Sony’s storage architecture is far ahead of “the best SSD solution you can buy on PC today."

This is true, but just barely, and in a matter of months it won't be true whatsoever. I mean is no one going to address the reality that Sony's SSD can just be removed from the system and replaced with a PC M.2 drive? I mean you're removing this crazy custom SSD that only Sony could ever dream of creating and replacing with an off the shelf part, and it will work just fine replacing it entirely, and I'm supposed to take all this off the wall PR seriously?

Come on guys...

He's even said that he doesn't understand most of what his engineers are capable of doing, and that they're wizards. He's a pretty humble guy who obviously transitioned from developer to owner and didn't stay in the trenches.
Are you normally ignorant? What do you think architecture means? Hint: It doesn't mean one single component.

There is a bigger picture to this which you seem to just ignore. Also, can we laugh at the fact you're assuming the custom SSD can easily be swapped out from the PS5? How do you know its not mated to the motherboard? Do you have a break down of the console?
 
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Ass of Can Whooping

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And that's accurate, but PC tech is moving faster than anything Sony or Microsoft is doing. These M.2 drives which bury both will be on the shelves before either system releases.

Same goes for Ampere, RDNA 2 discrete GPU's, Ryzen 4000 series etc.
Will these SSDs have a 12 channel interface?
 
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DynamiteCop!

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It was CLEARLY meant to show how even if you DID NOTHING.. the game loaded 8x faster... If you did nothing but load up the old game on an xsx. No API changes, tweaking or anything. yester on the xone 45 seconds. today on xsx 6 seconds... why is that not interesting?

That's very impressive.
It's loading it just like any other SSD would without optimization coded around the software.

Here is a 550MB/s SSD vs. a 3,400MB/s M.2.

They load nearly identically because none of the game software is coded to take advantage of them. It's just like a GPU without a graphics driver.

 
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Trueblakjedi

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Thanks for explaining. I do agree that the PS5 does.seem to have a better I/O. But I'm worried that 3rd parties won't take advantage of it.
You dont have a frame of reference for that statement. All that exists is the Road to Ps5 statements and a 1440p @30fps demo...
 

ethomaz

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This aged well.

That China Epic guy didn’t say what are you trying to imply lol
People added words to his talk.

He never said which settings he ran on his laptop and at the end he says if you turn the demo down to 1080p, 1-2 triangles per pixel, and vortex compression you can reach MB/s instead GB/s for the demo.
 

ethomaz

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The point is, this UE5 engine demo is being used as some kind of bastion for the PS5 against the Series X when these engineers from Epic have flagrantly discussed that weaker PC hardware than the Series X is doing exactly what it is without dynamic resolution at 1440p and with a better framerate.

So obviously that leads to the induction in logic that it would be better on the Series X, obviously. I mean does this really need explanation?

There's no mistranslation, multiple people went through all of it, translated it and cross referenced . You're just outright lying because what was said doesn't land in your favor.

You guys from the second this has been shown have been acting like Unreal Engine 5 is PlayStation exclusive, it's embarrassing.
That is false.


Another lie. No specs given, no resolution given.

Your nose is growing mate.
That is true.
But some guys tried to pass words not said in the translation but after several guys confirmed the translate not have any settings for the demo running on notebook.

Why Xbox users have to rely on so many FUD is out of my mind.
 
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cyber69

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It was CLEARLY meant to show how even if you DID NOTHING.. the game loaded 8x faster... If you did nothing but load up the old game on an xsx. No API changes, tweaking or anything. yester on the xone 45 seconds. today on xsx 6 seconds... why is that not interesting?

That's very impressive.
It's not interesting because Microsoft is acting like no one has ever seen this before. Additionally, Microsoft as a company that heavily supports PC gaming are also acting like people have never seen or felt 120+ FPS.
 
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That's not what he said. He said and I quote.

"Sony’s storage architecture is far ahead of “the best SSD solution you can buy on PC today."

This is true, but just barely, and in a matter of months it won't be true whatsoever. I mean is no one going to address the reality that Sony's SSD can just be removed from the system and replaced with a PC M.2 drive? I mean you're removing this crazy custom SSD that only Sony could ever dream of creating and replacing with an off the shelf part, and it will work just fine replacing it entirely, and I'm supposed to take all this off the wall PR seriously?

Come on guys...

He's even said that he doesn't understand most of what his engineers are capable of doing, and that they're wizards. He's a pretty humble guy who obviously transitioned from developer to owner and didn't stay in the trenches.
The ram itself (future expandable M.2 drive) is the less important part of PS5 I/O solution. It's just simple and stupid ram. What Cerny (and his team) designed is the custom I/O system (+ GPU cache scrubbers) using a custom SSD controller itself plugged to the SSD ram.



Do you see those insignificant small squares at the bottom, not even labelled ? That's like your M.2 drive. That's what the M.2 drive will replace.
 

Trueblakjedi

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Google is your friend in any and all cases.

"Because we’re talking about ray tracing and AMD RDNA 2 GPUs with hardware-enabled ray tracing are releasing who-knows-when, you need an Nvidia RTX graphics card to really take advantage of these new effects.

Nvidia told us that an Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060 is required for “playable” framerates at 1080p, which it defined as “30 fps”. Keep in mind, however, that this is with DLSS 2.0 enabled, which, to the uninitiated, is Nvidia’s AI-based upscaling technology.

We didn’t do full performance testing of Minecraft RTX like we typically do with major game launches (see Resident Evil 3 and Doom Eternal performance), because it was a beta. However, that doesn’t mean that we ignored our performance.

We played the game on our home gaming PC, which is packed with an AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, 32GB of RAM and an Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Ti – as close to top-end as you can get right now without breaking into the HEDT world. And, even with this extravagant level of hardware, we didn’t manage to break a 60 fps average at 3,440 x 1,440 with ray tracing enabled.

That being said, when we turned off the DLSS upscaling, framerates tanked all the way down to the mid-20s, so we would say that enabling DLSS is basically required with Minecraft RTX. "


 

ethomaz

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From the guy that said the PS3 outsold the 360 in its first year and that his source is "public knowledge". You're a phony Sir.
The throttling stuff has been discussed too often on this forum and I know that you have the "it's not throttling", it's using "locked profiles" answer ready. Maybe another time.
PS3 outsold 360 in first year lol
That is a fact without public shipment from both companies... there are dozen of threads with the subject on GAF some that I even liked for somebody that asked in that thread.

Now his claim is just FUD because the DF article didn’t say what he said.
 
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DarthFeanor

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Could be, but your SSD speeds assume there is no latency, there is more to real world performance than potential speed.

if that were the case a 5 GB game would load in 2 seconds on XSX. Hence my stance for now.

I think MS is working franticaly on their IO apis is my guess and they are not ready yet (or they would of shown faster loading during the fast loading and fast resume demos). Just a guess (logical) but without facts.
In fast loading and fast resuming the system is reading and writing at the same time. It is not like in a game play situation with 99% of the usage dedicated to reading.

Writing is much slower than reading.
 

jimbojim

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It's loading it just like any other SSD would without optimization coded around the software.

Here is a 550MB/s SSD vs. a 3,400MB/s M.2.

They load nearly identically because none of the game software is coded to take advantage of them. It's just like a GPU without a graphics driver.

So, you comparing readings for current gen games which were developed with HDD in mind. Nah.
 
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azertydu91

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That is false.



That is true.
But some guys tried to pass words not said in the translation but after several guys confirmed the translate not have any settings for the demo running on notebook.

Why Xbox users have to rely on so many FUD is out of my mind.
I don't think he cares about facts ...I won't bother with him anymore since he is incapable of replying against sourced facts.
I'll ignore him and encourage you to do so.This will only lead to fruitless discussion.
 

DynamiteCop!

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So, you comparing readings for current gen games which were developed with HDD in mind. Nah.
That's the whole point, State of Decay 2 is a game like the ones above which were created for the loading structure of an HDD... and it loads just like any other game on an SSD which is.
 

bitbydeath

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That's not what he said. He said and I quote.

"Sony’s storage architecture is far ahead of “the best SSD solution you can buy on PC today."

This is true, but just barely, and in a matter of months it won't be true whatsoever. I mean is no one going to address the reality that Sony's SSD can just be removed from the system and replaced with a PC M.2 drive? I mean you're removing this crazy custom SSD that only Sony could ever dream of creating and replacing with an off the shelf part, and it will work just fine replacing it entirely, and I'm supposed to take all this off the wall PR seriously?
Did you not read the tweet?


“Systems integration and whole-system performance”
 

Trueblakjedi

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Well the spec sheets are an indication of the differences between the two I/O systems.

Unless you can explain why it's better with the XSX and I'm willing to listen to you.
Whats funny is everyone says "Sony's whole architecture is what makes it incredible!!!"

Then the same people ignore the Xbox whole architecture and say "But 2.4 is sooo slow!!" wait what happened to the "architecture?"

If its "the architecture"... Xbox has an "architecture" which they think is pretty good. Maybe even comparable...

Such disingenuous arguments. Its exhausting. lol
 

Insane Metal

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This is really nice. Notice no one is saying the most powerful console, but the best architecture, probably the easiest to develop for.

Remember that this is what made the first PlayStation the huge success it was and made it possible for many smaller devs to make a huge number of new, incredible games and IPs. If this is the same situation for the PS5 it would be incredible.
 

DarthFeanor

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It's a beautiful time.
It seems far less dramatic this time around.
In 2013 was much easier to understand the "resolution war", even though it was basically a non-issue just a couple of years after that drama.

I believe that when Microsoft embraced PC the pressure to win hardware sales alone has faded. And the expectation of mid generation refresh brings a whole new expectation.
 

DarthFeanor

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I don’t remember any dev saying Xbox One was easier to develop of praising the XDK I. 2013.
The opposite they praised and said PS4 was indeed easier to develop.
I remember people saying 1080p/60 was impossible on the Xone or that how the gap would wide and third party developers dropping support for console.

I wonder where those people are today.
 

ethomaz

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I remember people saying 1080p/60 was impossible on the Xone or that how the gap would wide and third party developers dropping support for console.

I wonder where those people are today.
?
Can you post quotes from 2013 please because I don’t remember that.
Forza Motorsport was showed (I played at BGS) in middle 2013 with 1080p / 60fps.

What people said is if a game if 1080p/60fps on PS4 then it probably will be 900p/60fps on XB1... that is true even today.
 
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Nikana

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I don’t remember any dev saying Xbox One was easier to develop of praising the XDK I. 2013.
The opposite they praised and said PS4 was indeed easier to develop.
You are being way to specific and I never insinuated anyone ever said bone was easier to develop for.
 
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Whats funny is everyone says "Sony's whole architecture is what makes it incredible!!!"

Then the same people ignore the Xbox whole architecture and say "But 2.4 is sooo slow!!" wait what happened to the "architecture?"

If its "the architecture"... Xbox has an "architecture" which they think is pretty good. Maybe even comparable...

Such disingenuous arguments. Its exhausting. lol
So how is Microsofts I/O solution on par with Sonys?

I really would like an explanation on this.

Edit: Just so we're clear I'm trying to get a serious answer so I can learn from it. So refrain from any silliness please.
 
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Thirty7ven

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Google is your friend in any and all cases.

"Because we’re talking about ray tracing and AMD RDNA 2 GPUs with hardware-enabled ray tracing are releasing who-knows-when, you need an Nvidia RTX graphics card to really take advantage of these new effects.

Nvidia told us that an Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060 is required for “playable” framerates at 1080p, which it defined as “30 fps”. Keep in mind, however, that this is with DLSS 2.0 enabled, which, to the uninitiated, is Nvidia’s AI-based upscaling technology.

We didn’t do full performance testing of Minecraft RTX like we typically do with major game launches (see Resident Evil 3 and Doom Eternal performance), because it was a beta. However, that doesn’t mean that we ignored our performance.

We played the game on our home gaming PC, which is packed with an AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, 32GB of RAM and an Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Ti – as close to top-end as you can get right now without breaking into the HEDT world. And, even with this extravagant level of hardware, we didn’t manage to break a 60 fps average at 3,440 x 1,440 with ray tracing enabled.

That being said, when we turned off the DLSS upscaling, framerates tanked all the way down to the mid-20s, so we would say that enabling DLSS is basically required with Minecraft RTX. "


That says that 4K is out of 2080ti’s reach, not 1080p which is what the XSX demo ran at.

At 1080p with DLSS To 4K the 2080ti ran at 60fps or always near it. The XSX in what seemed like a less demanding demo of Minecraft path tracing was hovering between 30 and 40 FPS if I remember correctly.

So no the XSX wasn’t doing better at all.


How is loading a highly optimized 8 second bit of gameplay in .8 seconds so demonstrably better than loading a totally off the shelf whole game which normally takes 45 seconds to load in 6 seconds?

In the optimized case its a factor of 10x.

In the unoptimized case its a factor of 8x.

Are you being honest here?
6 seconds? You mean 10 or 11? Not quite sure. Not 6.
 
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Kenpachii

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That's not what he said. He said and I quote.

"Sony’s storage architecture is far ahead of “the best SSD solution you can buy on PC today."

This is true, but just barely, and in a matter of months it won't be true whatsoever. I mean is no one going to address the reality that Sony's SSD can just be removed from the system and replaced with a PC M.2 drive? I mean you're removing this crazy custom SSD that only Sony could ever dream of creating and replacing with an off the shelf part, and it will work just fine replacing it entirely, and I'm supposed to take all this off the wall PR seriously?

Come on guys...

He's even said that he doesn't understand most of what his engineers are capable of doing, and that they're wizards. He's a pretty humble guy who obviously transitioned from developer to owner and didn't stay in the trenches.
It's funny because he's really specific with what he says. he says "the best ssd solution you can buy on PC today".

Which is technically correct as 1 ssd is indeed faster right now even while super tiny ( and today and not release date because again he would be wrong then ) but the reality is pc can simple just raid them and even place a bunch of them in a x16 slot and already trump PS5 multiple times over on speed 2 years ago without any problems think about 15-18gbps without effort on pci-e 3.0 ( not compressed with compression it can go far higher )

He does this constantly its funny to read how thirsty those sony fans are for any positive news for that throttle box while not remotely understanding the tech.

Will be funny to see DF articles about the PS5 always from day one being dead last on performance with pc completely and utterly stomping all over those consoles with it on every front.

I can already see the excuses, just wait not optimized yet secret sauce etc etc.
 
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Hobbygaming

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Basically every inkling of information from third party sources about the PlayStation 5 has been bloated and inaccurate, and not until real information came into the fray from Cerny himself did the disappointment of the system set in.

I just don't buy any of this BS, people have been trying to help this system along with handicaps and unrealistic praise since the first "leaks" started to surface.
Or maybe, just maybe











PS5 is developers favorite console to code for and it is highly capable
 
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Hobbygaming

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All of the signs point to PS5 being a greatly made console

1. Mark Cerny said the SSD was developers most requested thing for next gen

2. The majority of developers at GDC said they're more excited for the PS5 and more games were being created for the PS5 from the GDC survey

3. Developers told Jason Schreier that PS5 is the most exciting hardware in 20 years and is superior in a lot of ways
 

thismeinteil

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That is false.



That is true.
But some guys tried to pass words not said in the translation but after several guys confirmed the translate not have any settings for the demo running on notebook.

Why Xbox users have to rely on so many FUD is out of my mind.
Simple. They lost this gen. Badly. They figure Series X is their shot at another 360, so got to pump it up accordingly. Doesn't help that MS just f'ed up their prelaunch messaging, again, with that much hated "gameplay" reveal.

Of course, no matter how much FUD they spread before launch, it's not going to take away the massive amount of hype the PS5 has right now. The June 4th event just might make that hype explode to another level.
 
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Hobbygaming

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Simple. They lost this gen. Badly. They figure Series X is their shot at another 360, so got to pump it up accordingly. Doesn't help that MS just f'ed up their prelaunch messaging, again, with that much hated "gameplay" reveal.

Of course, no matter how much FUD they spread before launch, it's not going to take away the massive amount of hype the PS5 has right now. The June 4th event just might make that hype explode to another level.
Yeah when going up against the behemoth that is the PS5, they cant afford mistakes