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Jeff Grubb: Devs Fawning over PS5. Haven't heard the same praise for XSX, but heard nothing bad

quest

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Yeah when going up against the behemoth that is the PS5, they cant afford mistakes
They could be perfect and would still lose just by less. Even Microsoft knows they can't win just do better and make enough to justify existence to the CEO. There is a reason Nintendo left this market competing against Sony is a near impossible task now. House and crew built a near unstoppable juggernaut.
 

onQ123

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Funny thing is that this has been common for the last year or so but people keep downplaying it ,



But on a better note I think the difference in reactions from the games that Microsoft showed vs the way people reacted to the Unreal Engine 5 running on PS5 most likely woke MS up & they will give devs more freedom.
 

and 3 others

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*edit. How do I type irregular spaces and have them reflect in my post?
 
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longdi

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All of the signs point to PS5 being a greatly made console

1. Mark Cerny said the SSD was developers most requested thing for next gen

2. The majority of developers at GDC said they're more excited for the PS5 and more games were being created for the PS5 from the GDC survey

3. Developers told Jason Schreier that PS5 is the most exciting hardware in 20 years and is superior in a lot of ways
There was also whispers that PS5 is further along in development, and why it appeared 'more powerful'.
Sony probably started full steam after PS4 Pro, while MS was still working on OneX.

Imo that's all there is, MS is behind in providing devs their next gen devkits
Nothing that wont equalise as next gen matures. 🤷‍♀️
 
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DynamiteCop!

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There was also whispers that PS5 is further along in development, and why it appeared 'more powerful'.
Sony probably started full steam after PS4 Pro, while MS was still working on OneX.

Imo that's all there is, MS is behind in providing devs their next gen devkits
Nothing that wont equalise as next gen matures. 🤷‍♀️
Microsoft directly said the Series X has been in development longer than even the Xbox One X.
 
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onQ123

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There was also whispers that PS5 is further along in development, and why it appeared 'more powerful'.
Sony probably started full steam after PS4 Pro, while MS was still working on OneX.

Imo that's all there is, MS is behind in providing devs their next gen devkits
Nothing that wont equalise as next gen matures. 🤷‍♀️
Updated devkits can't magically feed the 16GB of RAM a steady stream of data at 5.5GB/s RAW
 

longdi

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Microsoft directly said the Series X has been in development longer than even the Xbox One X.
Yes..but not full steam ahead, there were those rumors, no? 🤷‍♀️

Updated devkits can't magically feed the 16GB of RAM a steady stream of data at 5.5GB/s RAW
And there will be things SeX can do easier faster, but i guess devkits are not as mature as PS5, which im saying.
 
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OSC

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The point is, this UE5 engine demo is being used as some kind of bastion for the PS5 against the Series X when these engineers from Epic have flagrantly discussed that weaker PC hardware than the Series X is doing exactly what it is without dynamic resolution at 1440p and with a better framerate.
People who watched the actual livestream and seemingly knew chinese commented neither the laptop pc specs nor the settings were discussed.
"with the PS5 managing 30fps at 1440p while the laptop hit 40fps at the same resolution from within the editor itself. "

"The laptop in question is no slouch mind, featuring Nvidia RTX 2080 graphics and a 970 Evo Plus. Epic's CTO, Kim Libreri, has already confirmed to us that you'll get "pretty good" performance with UE5 running on something like an RTX 2070 Super,"

If you say so.
People who watched the actual livestream and seemingly knew chinese commented neither the laptop pc specs nor the settings were discussed.
 
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People who watched the actual livestream and seemingly knew chinese commented neither the laptop pc specs nor the settings were discussed.

People who watched the actual livestream and seemingly knew chinese commented neither the laptop pc specs nor the settings were discussed.
Hmm then where did that come from then?

I wonder if it was just some FUD again...
 

OSC

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Hmm then where did that come from then?

I wonder if it was just some FUD again...
The pc specs came from a chinese forum where someone claimed to have called the epic employee and gotten them.

The resolution has been claimed on twitter by some people trying to say it is the same settings but the actual employee in the actual video did not specify
OK sure thing. But nowhere in that Chinese podcast did they mention about the laptop running a fixed 1440p res, for all we know it could also be running with DRS on, maybe not even at 1440p at all. The nature of that laptop performance was very vaguely presented so I don't think we can rely too much on that for now. More so that PS5 demo was running on early devkit and they were aiming for 60fps, who knows if the final optimized build could put it on the same level as a 2070s. But I admit I jumped into conclusion too fast myself before, we should wait for more data. ... -ultragpu, beyond3d
Yes, I forgot about this part when he said it. The sentiment he's conveying is almost as if next gen consoles can easily reach 60fps after optimization when even his laptop can do it at 40fps. Also yes he didn't specify at any one point that the demo was 1440p on his laptop.
A deep tear down of UE5 couldn't happen soon enough. -ultragpu, beyond3d
 
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NullZ3r0

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No its not. 560 is not equal 332. This isn't even a difficult topic - its the one time where a simple number comparison will tell the story...
Its one pool of RAM. Devs won't be micromanaging it. Its just that GPU will be accessing it at faster speeds than CPU workloads.
 

DynamiteCop!

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Its one pool of RAM. Devs won't be micromanaging it. Its just that GPU will be accessing it at faster speeds than CPU workloads.
He doesn't seem to to understand that the GPU will automatically draw its bandwidth from the 560GB/s RAMDAC's. The rest of the system doesn't matter, everything else is incredibly minimal in terms of bandwidth requirements.
 
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onQ123

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Yes..but not full steam ahead, there were those rumors, no? 🤷‍♀️


And there will be things SeX can do easier faster, but i guess devkits are not as mature as PS5, which im saying.
For sure but the problem was you saying "That's all there is" as if it can't be the fact that devs really love the design of the PS5.

Before any of these devs came out talking about the PS5 I told you people over & over again that PS5 has the straight forward rendering advantage Xbox SX has a compute advantage.

Looking at one number is going to have a lot of people looking like fools when the games come out & it's easy to see PS5 advantages but hard to see the Xbox SX advantages.
 
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wachie

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I thought they beat PS5 to the production line but can’t find an article on it so maybe I imagined it?
Just because one-side has said production has started, doesn't actually mean they were first. Besides there are lot of different parts in the consoles so the definition of "production" could mean anything, goes for both Sony & Microsoft.
 
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Trueblakjedi

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For sure but the problem was you saying "That's all there is" as if it can't be the fact that devs really love the design of the PS5.

Before any of these devs came out talking about the PS5 I told you people over & over again that PS5 has the straight forward rendering advantage Xbox SX has a compute advantage.

Looking at one number is going to have a lot of people looking like fools when the games come out & it's easy to see PS5 advantages but hard to see the Xbox SX advantages.
I've heard the same...
 

longdi

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For sure but the problem was you saying "That's all there is" as if it can't be the fact that devs really love the design of the PS5.

Before any of these devs came out talking about the PS5 I told you people over & over again that PS5 has the straight forward rendering advantage Xbox SX has a compute advantage.

Looking at one number is going to have a lot of people looking like fools when the games come out & it's easy to see PS5 advantages but hard to see the Xbox SX advantages.
Same thing i said. We all heard developers like ssd, how ssd helps cut down development chore of previously duplicating and careful placement of data.

Like wise, we hear of how PS5 devkits have always been more matured.

I guess SeX more powerful and sustained hardware allows developers to cut less corners on pixels output, but until the matured devkits and workflow are formed.

🤷‍♀️
 
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That's the whole point, State of Decay 2 is a game like the ones above which were created for the loading structure of an HDD... and it loads just like any other game on an SSD which is.
In the end what's important are the real world tests. And both have demoed a current gen game loading on their machine, and the results we have seen (virtually no loading times on PS5, <1s, standard PC SSD loading times on XSX, 11sec) is what you will see for the whole generation whether you like it or not. You should start thinking about accepting those results. The sooner, the better.
 
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geordiemp

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Minecraft says that you are wrong. Zero rasterization. 100% path traced. still ran better than a 2080 without DLSS....

So what you are saying is demonstrated to be just untrue.
I am sure twin stick shooters, 2 d games and other genres will have loads of full path ray tracing.

You know exactly what I meant, AAA games like Halo and HZD.
 
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geordiemp

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Hmm then where did that come from then?

I wonder if it was just some FUD again...
A Chinese poster from B3D who that site discussed in fine detail with the proper intended meanings of each conversation came on GAF and cleared it up, I would look for the post if I could be bothered. You can do it if you want, go B3d and look at the UE5 thread.

I recall laptop could do editor mode at start only (we dont know if it was all in RAM ?) - no FPS or quality - conclusion is that does not indicate ANYTHING.

Seperate Comments about 40 FPS and 60 FPS was in relation to Ps5 target and work being done conversation as its an early build,

Then later he talked about 1080p and lower quality traingles / pixels is easier on hardware is seperate conversation.

The problem was people tried to use google translate and then spiced it up trying to merge 3 different conversations into a FUD narrative. Sound familiar ?

Google translate is awful for Chinese, especially youtube text to translate.
 
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geordiemp

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I guess SeX more powerful and sustained hardware allows developers to cut less corners on pixels output, but until the matured devkits and workflow are formed.

🤷‍♀️
Keep repeating the powerful statement if you think it will help you, powerful on paper for compute but not everything.
 
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longdi

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Keep repeating the powerful statement if you think it will help you, powerful on paper for compute but not everything.
Isnt it the other way round? SeX is more powerful for everything else except SSD speeds? :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Hence im saying this topic is down to devkits, different stages of maturity for the 2 platforms
 
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gamerforever

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They could be perfect and would still lose just by less. Even Microsoft knows they can't win just do better and make enough to justify existence to the CEO. There is a reason Nintendo left this market competing against Sony is a near impossible task now. House and crew built a near unstoppable juggernaut.
If Sony widen the gap to say 8-2 then I think microsoft will leave the market and focus on services. The only problem they have is that they need their hardware to push their services at present, although long term i think they are aiming to push everyone on to a subscription based model on their pc along with office/ windows etc etc
 

ToadMan

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Did Epic choose PS5 or did both came up with a marketing plan?

If XSX advantages can be less apparent than what is known on paper, can PS5 advantage be also less apparent then on paper?
No. Because the PS5 “advantages” - this point seems to be about the SSD tech in this particular case - is known, measured and is a spec published based on the operating hardware.

The “18%” power advantage of Xsex is a static figure calculated totally independent of the console when its operating.

So one is a measure performance characteristic and the other is a prediction based on a simplified metric.

It’s up to Xsex to meet that prediction now - the question is whether it can turn that tflop calculation into an equivalent advantage when actual game performance is measured.

Here’s a tip - it won’t. Tflops differences never translate direct to performance differences like this.
I mean is no one going to address the reality that Sony's SSD can just be removed from the system and replaced with a PC M.2 drive? I mean you're removing this crazy custom SSD that only Sony could ever dream of creating and replacing with an off the shelf part,
Not the reality... your knowledge is insufficient.


But to use your wording, the Xsex is already eclipsed by SSDs available right now, today. In fact it was eclipsed by SSDs available a year ago.

MS are so committed to BC they’ve built a system from the past.

Anyway that puts the Xsex at a major disadvantage in next gen. As it happens MS aren’t developing any next gen games - presumably because they won’t work on their system

You’ll be able to load xb1 games a little faster - but since no one wants to play them it’s a wasted effort.
 
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We had Developer hot takes prior to the PS4/XB1 launches in 2013 and they're just as vacuous then as they are now.

Best to not worry about things like this, twitter whores thrive on attention.
 
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ToadMan

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Isnt it the other way round? SeX is more powerful for everything else except SSD speeds? :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Hence im saying this topic is down to devkits, different stages of maturity for the 2 platforms
If it comes down to devkits, Sony are walking ahead. I mean that’s the whole point of this thread


Isn't it obvious? Microsoft is not letting anything out of the box they don't want shown.


You're making this unnecessarily difficult.
MS made it unnecessarily difficult - I didn’t ask them to produce a gameplay reveal with meh games, no gameplay not even running on the console.

Then again next gen doesn’t mean next gen in the MS view of things. It’s a post truth company now ...

If that’s what MS “wanted to show” god help you when you see something they don’t want you to see lol.

Oh sorry - my mistake - MS aren’t producing any next gen games so you’ve already seen what they can do on xb1
 
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ToadMan

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Man people really bought that Epic stuff hook, link, and sinker. It's blatantly obvious they have a marketing deal. Same situation as that Scorn dev talking about the PS5 SSD.
People “bought” an actual tech demo running on hardware that will soon be available for purchase? That seems entirely rational.

Or you could read about the XVA and just dream about the performance it will give in 2022 or later when MS manage to dribble out an actual 1st party exclusive.
 
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geordiemp

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Isnt it the other way round? SeX is more powerful for everything else except SSD speeds? :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Hence im saying this topic is down to devkits, different stages of maturity for the 2 platforms
No, TF is compute, not rasterization or things related to clocks, so not really, its one metric, and important one but not all.

Also bandwidth is not as simple as it looks either, I am not a fan of either solution,
 

FranXico

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I don’t remember any dev saying Xbox One was easier to develop of praising the XDK I. 2013.
The opposite they praised and said PS4 was indeed easier to develop.
Devs complained about the ESRAM back then. It was not as bad as the CELL fiasco, but devs were not really happy.

I do remember Leadbetter praising the XB1 "more balanced" design regardless.

This time around, there's not really much to complain about either platform, which is a good thing for everybody.
 
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ToadMan

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PCIE 4. raw specification is higher than PS5 I/O spec... (greater than 7GB/s raw) and doesn't need 12 channels... Both have four lanes. How do you think regular PCIE4 achieves that?
More channels = greater (sustained) throughput.

It’s why with ostensibly similar SSD solutions both based on PCIe 4, Xsex is half the speed of PS5.

Xsex may only have 4 channels perhaps 8. Either way, despite the spec allowing much higher rates Xsex only manages about 25% of the theoretical max.

Those channel counts also answer the question - why can’t people just put any 5.5gb/s + SSD in the PS5 - they can peak at those speeds, but not sustain.

That’s good enough for a PC build running last gen games, which as it happens is what Xsex is doing too. It’s not good enough for next gen.
 
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ToadMan

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Its one pool of RAM. Devs won't be micromanaging it. Its just that GPU will be accessing it at faster speeds than CPU workloads.
Sorry no. That’s not how it works.

When you’re working to a time budget and trying to get max performance, you need to know where that data is and how fast it will be accessed. Not just do a single memory read and find out a portion of the data is 40% slower arriving than the rest.

That means the api will provide operations to load the data where it is wanted. That means the developer has to make sure their data fit where it’s needed - that means the developers are doing memory management that means it cannot be defined as unified.

That also means the Xsex is limited to 10gb of fast memory for its gpu - to avoid memory management, devs will use that 10gb and then limit their graphics performance there.

This limit is why MS are busy trying to provide software data optimisation techniques to maximise how much data can get in the 10gb.

By your definition of “unified” the SSD would be considered a part of unified memory despite 100x worse read performance.

In the real world - different latency = different memory usage, hence it is non-unified.
 
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megreotsugua

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I suspect this all still has to do with the PS5 I/O.

Xsex I/O is still full of bottlenecks. Better than PC but still full of latency that prevents it from being used the same as the PS5. Latency more than the raw speed is important for immediate shuffling of assets in and out on the fly.

I think the praises for PS5 all boils down to that no-bottleneck I/O.
 
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ToadMan

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He doesn't seem to to understand that the GPU will automatically draw its bandwidth from the 560GB/s RAMDAC's. The rest of the system doesn't matter, everything else is incredibly minimal in terms of bandwidth requirements.
Ah for you it is simple because you don’t understand the implication of your words.

Here it is simplified. The Xsex gpu is limited to 10gb of VRAM. The remaining 6gb is 40% slower.

If a dev wants to use 11gb of video ram - they cannot. The either put it in the crummy ram at 40% slower, shuffle it to the 10gb or leave it on SSD at 100x slower access.

None of those are a description of unified memory in any practical definition of the word.

Unless you think the SSD is also part of a unified memory pool. That would be a definition only a non-engineer would use.
 

RaySoft

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Basically every inkling of information from third party sources about the PlayStation 5 has been bloated and inaccurate, and not until real information came into the fray from Cerny himself did the disappointment of the system set in.

I just don't buy any of this BS, people have been trying to help this system along with handicaps and unrealistic praise since the first "leaks" started to surface.
Devs knew that "commons" would be blinded by MS' higher TF count, without being able to understand the whole picture.
That's what went down. They tried to tell us long time ago, and they were right.
 
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Agnostic2020

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I suspect this all still has to do with the PS5 I/O.

Xsex I/O is still full of bottlenecks. Better than PC but still full of latency that prevents it from being used the same as the PS5. Latency more than the raw speed is important for immediate shuffling of assets in and out on the fly.

I think the praises for PS5 all boils down to that no-bottleneck I/O.
I m assuming you have some knowledge on this subject . I was talking to someone with knowledge Of both dev kits and they mentioned XSX speed is not the issue but rather the latency.

Anyways XSX wil have 10 to 15% better resolution due to CU count. PS5 might have more detailed scene as it can stream many assets very quickly and with no latency
 
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FranXico

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Devs knew that "commons" would be blinded by MS' higher TF count, without being able to understand the whole picture.
That's what went down. They tried to tell us long time ago, and they were right.
12 > 10. This is the most important number.
Other numbers are also larger, and that's all that matters.

Don't tell me that latency and bottlenecks are a thing! All I care about is who has the larger top numbers!

/s
 

93xfan

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I am sure twin stick shooters, 2 d games and other genres will have loads of full path ray tracing.

You know exactly what I meant, AAA games like Halo and HZD.
You don’t think the ray tracing in Metro Exodus and Control would be possible on Series X?

Edit: I see you meant full path tracing. Yeah, that’s going to be very rare.
 
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fybyfyby

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And the question I would pose to you is this, how is the Series X with a 40x+ I/O throughput not doing the same? The limiting factor in all of this is still going to be the CPU and GPU. You can't increase your GPU and CPU computational capability by only a factor of 2-2.5x and 4x on the CPU and then increase the throughput by a factor of 40-100x and expect the limiting factor to still not be the GPU and CPU.

It doesn't matter how much your throughput can try to throw at the scene if the GPU can't render it.

Both what Microsoft and Sony did in the I/O department is overkill weighed against the computational capability of each system.
I dont know exactly what did MS (Im not in detail of velocity engine), but Sony did also way to process this data outside of CPU. So they basically did highway from SSD to GPU(CPU) memory. I think MS did similar thing but I dont know how much CPU is involved.
 
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ZywyPL

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It's so good that a praise thread needs to be created every day, sometimes more than one. :messenger_confused:
I've yet to see a product that needed so much re-assurance from all sides, fans, devs, publishers, engine builders and w/e else.
Sounds like PS5 is going to be the best thing since slice bread, the tempest engine, controller, variable clocks, audio and whatever else.

I does feel more like a desperate pre-emptive damage control rather than an actually good PR/marketing. But hey, I don't blame anyone, all those journalists strive for clicks, views, likes, shares/retweets, comments, they have to make a living, it's all just a business. We'll most likely never get to know who those mysterious "developers" were, what studio/publisher they work for, what games they have been working on at the time, few months from now no one will remember nor care about all those revelations, but as of now guys like Jeff are having their 5min. of fame.


Don't believe it. Both are basically PCs. Both will be equally easy to develop for. All these pre launch noise doesn't matter.

Yeah, people seem to forget both consoles are build by on the exact same AMD solutions/architectures, give or take few customizations here and there, but we already saw that with no less than 4 current-gen systems, where at the end of the day a PC that's simply just more powerful can brute force through all those customizations/optimizations and call it a day. Times of exotic, never seen before, hard to master architectures are long time gone, there's no magic, no secret source in the upcoming consoles like some want to believe, the next-gen consoles will be more or less a closed spec Zen2+RDNA2 PCs, nothing more.

And the game engines themselves are build to support multiple platforms to begin with, the tools are all the same no mater what system your aiming for, the "easier to develop for" argument is only relevant to 1st party engines/games, which again, as Cerny said, the "time to triangle" doesn't mean much, and the devs can still take 5-7 years to make their games, if that's how long it takes to fully materialize their vision of the game.

Bottom line is, it's the exact same start of a new generation like any other, where the upcoming consoles will supposedly allow for new, never seen before, never experienced before, never possible before, unimaginable things, and then when they actually launch the reality strikes hard, really hard.
 

whitesugar

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seems like some people were expecting the ~25% extra TF to be the be all and end all and that the praise was all going to go one way.

also the damage control narrative is bizarre, seeing as everything was pointing to MS having the more powerful console for a full year now from everything we were hearing. the idea that Sony, which has absolutely curbstomped MS this gen, is begging some relative nobodies to hype them up is laughable, and again seems like salt from the same people who thought that all everyone was gonna do this gen was jerk off about 12tf
 
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jimbojim

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Yes..but not full steam ahead, there were those rumors, no? 🤷‍♀️


And there will be things SeX can do easier faster, but i guess devkits are not as mature as PS5, which im saying.
Devkits already are in final versions available to devs for quite some time.