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Jeff Grubb: Devs Fawning over PS5. Haven't heard the same praise for XSX, but heard nothing bad

Ass of Can Whooping

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You know what y'all need? Being stuck with a potatoe PC as your only form of gaming for a few years. Its the best way to learn how to have fun with games again instead of worshiping these SSDs, teraflops or whatever.
I'd rather be stuck with the Atari VCS than use a PC much less a potato
 
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Redlight

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Your comprehension of the difference between appriasal of rendering technology and does it shoot things is frustrating yes, its like being back at school.

I have work to do man,.
Well, I guess insulting me instead of actually addressing what I said is one approch. :)

As an engineer you should be fully across the fact that the tech demo was not an actual game and that further compromises would have to be made if it was. Further compromises to a demo that is already running at 30fps and 1440.

It looked amazing, no doubt about it, I'm looking forward to next-gen games that utilise Unreal 5, they'll be great.

However you said "Whats been revealed so far is the most technically advanced gameplay so far on console". It's not a game, it's a tech demo. A demo that would be 'awesome' on the Series X, according to the company that made it. It's not PS5 exclusive, it's an engine designed to run on pretty much everything that has buttons.

It's hardly the 'PS5 revelation' that you'd like to think it is.
 

onQ123

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In the end what's important are the real world tests. And both have demoed a current gen game loading on their machine, and the results we have seen (virtually no loading times on PS5, <1s, standard PC SSD loading times on XSX, 11sec) is what you will see for the whole generation whether you like it or not. You should start thinking about accepting those results. The sooner, the better.
This is false games can be made for Xbox SX with no loading times by using the same technique as PS5 moving just enough data in for what's on the screen instead of pre-loading data for what might happen in the next 20 seconds or so.
 
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Branthrax

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But it is. "NEARLY match it" isn't enough for PS5. Last year, Cerny said there is no SSD available on the market right now. And till this date, he is still right. Btw., that Sabren SSD won't work in PS5 because it's still slow. Maybe Samsumg 980 Pro will get the certificate for PS5
Why are you talking like you know what’s going on? You do realize that the only way an expanded SSD will work in PS5 is if matches the speed of their current drive right? Third parties will be making these drives to sell for PS5 and they’ll be available shortly after launch.

In terms of PC nvme SSDs, pci-e 6.0 is due to release next year and will surpass PS5. Not even a year after launch it won’t “nearly match it” it will render Cerny’s “advanced tech” obsolete.

I know the truth hurts but this is a good lesson.
 
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Tulipanzo

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Neither does the poster he is answering to. Who makes a claim carries the burden of proof.
Emm, except I did?

Point 1 is the official on paper delta between the two.
Point 2 is scaling that delta to a 4k resolution image, which shows virtually no gain.
Point 3 is a statement made both by Cerny on stage, and supported by devs: achieving peak power is easier on fewer but better CUs.

The SSD being a key factor in UE5 gains is once again publicly available information.

This isn't to mean that SeX is bad, but to explain why devs in OT might be less impressed by the GPU delta.
 

geordiemp

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Well, I guess insulting me instead of actually addressing what I said is one approch. :)

As an engineer you should be fully across the fact that the tech demo was not an actual game and that further compromises would have to be made if it was. Further compromises to a demo that is already running at 30fps and 1440.

It looked amazing, no doubt about it, I'm looking forward to next-gen games that utilise Unreal 5, they'll be great.

However you said "Whats been revealed so far is the most technically advanced gameplay so far on console". It's not a game, it's a tech demo. A demo that would be 'awesome' on the Series X, according to the company that made it. It's not PS5 exclusive, it's an engine designed to run on pretty much everything that has buttons.

It's hardly the 'PS5 revelation' that you'd like to think it is.
Nope, it was locked at 30 FPS, you dont know what the frame rate was other than its was capped at 30 and the target is 60 FPS (Unreal dev comments).

Also, just for you........No...


 

RaySoft

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Lets say it turns out that 9GB/s is the required fillrate for
12 > 10. This is the most important number.
Other numbers are also larger, and that's all that matters.

Don't tell me that latency and bottlenecks are a thing! All I care about is who has the larger top numbers!

/s
The funniest thing is that they probably didnt catch the sarcasm:)
 

Stilton Disco

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Why are you talking like you know what’s going on? You do realize that the only way an expanded SSD will work in PS5 is if matches the speed of their current drive right? Third parties will be making these drives to sell for PS5 and they’ll be available shortly after launch.

In terms of PC nvme SSDs, pci-e 6.0 is due to release next year and will surpass PS5. Not even a year after launch it won’t “nearly match it” it will render Cerny’s “advanced tech” obsolete.

I know the truth hurts but this is a good lesson.
The tech will be there, but the mass adoption of the PS4 by consumers will be what drives the utalisation of it fully by game developers.

If it werent in consoles, it would end up being half arsed and rarely used, as has been the case with ray tracing despite the RTX cards being on the market for years now.

Even then, the cost to performance and like for like ratio will still likely be in the consoles favoure.

Basically, lets not make this a dick measuring contest, and just be happy we all have what we want (as long as we're will to pay for it), and that this gen is seeing a new innovation that will lead to real improvements to gaming across the industry.

All this platform warrior bollocks is just getting tiring.
 

Ass of Can Whooping

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Why are you talking like you know what’s going on? You do realize that the only way an expanded SSD will work in PS5 is if matches the speed of their current drive right? Third parties will be making these drives to sell for PS5 and they’ll be available shortly after launch.

In terms of PC nvme SSDs, pci-e 6.0 is due to release next year and will surpass PS5. Not even a year after launch it won’t “nearly match it” it will render Cerny’s “advanced tech” obsolete.

I know the truth hurts but this is a good lesson.
Lol there won't be any SSDs that'll support pcie 6 next year.
 

onesvenus

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Point 1 is the official on paper delta between the two.
You are assuming feature parity and only talking about TF. The thing is that you don't know if both GPUs have the same feature set nor have you provided any confirmation that they do.
Point 2 is scaling that delta to a 4k resolution image, which shows virtually no gain.
I think you are grasping at straws. A one off test is not an indicator of anything.
Point 3 is a statement made both by Cerny on stage, and supported by devs: achieving peak power is easier on fewer but better CUs.
There are also devs that say the contrary and I wouldn't take one thing said by the chief engineer as something impartial, at all. In addition to that faster is not better. And peak power can also be lower than what is achievable with Xbox.

There are no arguments to support those claims nor the ones the other way around. We'll need to wait for the multiplatform games and engines to start rolling to have a clear view of what's true and what's not
 

Redlight

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Nope, it was locked at 30 FPS, you dont know what the frame rate was other than its was capped at 30 and the target is 60 FPS (Unreal dev comments).

Also, just for you........No...
I'm glad you endorse Sweeney quotes, he's the one that said that the tech demo (you know, the one that ran at 30fps - capped or not), would be 'awesome' on Series X.

I'm not sure that there's much point in engaging with you further on this though. You don't actually address any points I've made, you just post non-sequiturs as if they were some kind of finishing move. It's funny, I admit it, but I've got kids so I know how this goes.
 

Thirty7ven

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No, the poster he answered to talked about a 15% difference in POWER, not TFLOPS. And that assumes feature parity which we don't know about.
It's implicit he's talking about TFLOPs. But sure, you know that cuts both ways right?
 

THE:MILKMAN

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In terms of PC nvme SSDs, pci-e 6.0 is due to release next year and will surpass PS5. Not even a year after launch it won’t “nearly match it” it will render Cerny’s “advanced tech” obsolete.
This is besides the point. The SSD is the starting point in the chain (GB/s = BHP). Yes a theoretical pci-e 6.0 SSD might be 31.5 GB/s but between it and what ends up on screen are the bottlenecks. Decompression, check-in, coherency, file I/O and Memory Mapping...all addressed and increased x100 over PS4 on PS5 to make full use of the 5.5GB/8-9GB/s NVMe SSD.

On PC some of these bottlenecks are addressed and some can be brute forced. The DirectStorage API is also a big and needed upgrade coming to DX so that will help. It sure isn't elegant though and apparently PS5's I/O pipeline has very low latency which is a big thing too.

In simple terms a very fast NVMe SSD in a current PC is like having a 1000bhp engine in a Reliant Robin. It'll work but be a little wasteful and inefficient.
 
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Neo_game

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Umm what evidence do you have that PS5 has less bottlenecks than XSX? How did we get to this point? Your post seems more like wishful thinking with no facts to back them up.

And again, XSX will have next gen only titles at their July even. Whether that Hellblade 2, Bloobers new project,Playgrounds new Fable, or The Initiative's new game.
Let's face it before the Sony PS5 reveal. Everyone thought SSD will help only in loading times. Everyone were into tflops. Sony instead of going for a bigger gfx chip have given major attention to I/O, SSD capabilities and how games are going to utilize it. That is difference between the 2 console. Instead of getting backlash devs seems to be impressed. There has been many analysis over the console as well which states that PS5 is a better console inspite of having slightly weaker gpu. Which can only mean one thing that PS5 has less bottleneck.
 
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INCUBASE

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Do mods decide warning based on a post, or does it have to be reported? Apparently Im a kid console warrior hahaha

Doesnt a warrior have to fight for 1 side? I give xbx, ps and pc the same amount of banter, so how can u be a warrior

Some snowflakes up in here it seems
 

Degree

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Let's not fudge this all important detail; it was a playable tech demo, not actual gameplay. There is a massive difference. That slice is not part of any upcoming release, you'll never be able to 'play' it outside of that demo.

Also, if it were a game, it would also be available on Series X where it would, according to it's creator, be 'awesome'.
What was even the size of the Demo? some people say it’s something like 300GB, this small section.
And there are even Zero NPCs.
This is crazy.
Tech demos have always been like that. We had the same with PS4. It’s never like real gameplay. Nothing new.
but this can backfire extremely when the games shown at the event will not match the demo.
 

Tulipanzo

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You are assuming feature parity and only talking about TF. The thing is that you don't know if both GPUs have the same feature set nor have you provided any confirmation that they do.

I think you are grasping at straws. A one off test is not an indicator of anything.

There are also devs that say the contrary and I wouldn't take one thing said by the chief engineer as something impartial, at all. In addition to that faster is not better. And peak power can also be lower than what is achievable with Xbox.

There are no arguments to support those claims nor the ones the other way around. We'll need to wait for the multiplatform games and engines to start rolling to have a clear view of what's true and what's not
For somebody that complained about me not using sources, you didn't find one yourself.

Imaginary unnamed "features" to make the gap mysteriously larger, ignoring the very obvious way resolution can be scaled (please tell me which image you think is full 4k), and also quoting nonexisting devs, who somehow think more CUs is easier than a higher clock.

The last is especially bullshit when there's a whole new engine using potentially billions of very small triangles, which we already know benefit from higher clocks.


Making shit up to defend your console from "maybe devs don't like it as much" is frankly pathetic.
 
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Md Ray

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The CPU needs to be threaded, a GPU does not.

These garbage posts lol.
The "garbage post" you're referring to, is from a senior programmer at Ubisoft. And he's 100% right.

"The CPU needs to be threaded, a GPU does not."
Incorrect. GPU tasks also need to be parallelized.
He's talking about CPU's when Jason's post was about GPU's.

I guess you missed that little detail, WHOOOPS!
What he said about Amdahl's law, applies to any computational task. Whether it's CPU or GPU.
 
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Redlight

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Making shit up to defend your console from "maybe devs don't like it as much" is frankly pathetic.
I'm tipping that you won't see the irony.
Sweeney called it "the absolute best hardware that will exist at the end of this year" ffs!
Sweeney actually said... "The Nanite technology we showed here is going to run across all next-gen platforms and PC, and most importantly, this is what's possible on the absolute best hardware that's going to exist at the end of the year."

He's not necessarily talking about the PS5 in that quote, that's an assumption you're making based on your personal bias.

Making shit up to defend your console...is frankly pathetic.
Absolutely agree with you.
 

onesvenus

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It's implicit he's talking about TFLOPs. But sure, you know that cuts both ways right?
Yup, that's why I don't dare to compare GPUs with unknown feature sets.

Imaginary unnamed "features" to make the gap mysteriously larger
VRS Tier 2 is not confirmed for PS5 for example.

ignoring the very obvious way resolution can be scaled (please tell me which image you think is full 4k)
And what does this have anything to do with one GPU being more powerful than another? Is your point that PS5 can use the same effects as XSX but in lower res and then upscale? If that's the case, why couldn't the XSX do the same and use its highest CU count to better effects?

and also quoting nonexisting devs, who somehow think more CUs is easier than a higher clock.
If you want to read about how GPU works and learn here it's a good read about this. Just to leave you a snippet of it:
The higher the number of CU units in a GPU, the more work it can perform in parallel per clock cycle. Rendering is a type of problem that’s sometimes referred to as “embarrassingly parallel,” meaning it has the potential to scale upwards extremely well as core counts increase.
The last is especially bullshit when there's a whole new engine using potentially billions of very small triangles, which we already know benefit from higher clocks.
Is there anything that indicates that UE5 will not work with a wide and slow GPU? Because Tim Sweeney himself doesn't think so.

which we already know benefit from higher clocks
Do we? AFAIK Epic neither any of their engineers have said anything in that direction.

Making shit up to defend your console is frankly pathetic.
Exactly. BTW pointing the gaps in your arguments doesn't mean I'm an Xbot or something like that.
 
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ToadMan

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Why are you talking like you know what’s going on? You do realize that the only way an expanded SSD will work in PS5 is if matches the speed of their current drive right? Third parties will be making these drives to sell for PS5 and they’ll be available shortly after launch.

In terms of PC nvme SSDs, pci-e 6.0 is due to release next year and will surpass PS5. Not even a year after launch it won’t “nearly match it” it will render Cerny’s “advanced tech” obsolete.

I know the truth hurts but this is a good lesson.
Uh. Except those faster drives can be installed in the PS5. Plug and play baby so bring ‘em on

Xsex is stuck with its proprietary Seagate expansions though .... Xsex will be even more obsolete than it will be at launch, with each passing day ...
 
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Tulipanzo

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Sweeney actually said... "The Nanite technology we showed here is going to run across all next-gen platforms and PC, and most importantly, this is what's possible on the absolute best hardware that's going to exist at the end of the year."

He's not necessarily talking about the PS5 in that quote, that's an assumption you're making based on your personal bias.
What else could he ever possibly be referring to beside the PS5, the hardware the tech demo was literally running on in the same video he said this?

What level of brainworms you have to be on for this to be your excuse?
 

jimbojim

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Why are you talking like you know what’s going on? You do realize that the only way an expanded SSD will work in PS5 is if matches the speed of their current drive right? Third parties will be making these drives to sell for PS5 and they’ll be available shortly after launch.

In terms of PC nvme SSDs, pci-e 6.0 is due to release next year and will surpass PS5. Not even a year after launch it won’t “nearly match it” it will render Cerny’s “advanced tech” obsolete.

I know the truth hurts but this is a good lesson.
Yeah, i know about PCIE 6. Cool. But PCIE 6 will be released sometimes next year, not this year. And we are talking about this year and launch of PS5. So, yeah, nothing like PS5s SSD currently on the market. And like i've said, 980 Pro is something like PS5 SSD.
 

Redlight

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What else could he ever possibly be referring to beside the PS5, the hardware the tech demo was literally running on in the same video he said this?

What level of brainworms you have to be on for this to be your excuse?
Insults, again. :)

It seems as though some posters can rely upon nothing but personal attacks when called out on assumptions and fallacies that they insist on promoting regardless of the facts.

Sweeney said that the tech demo would be possible on the "best hardware that's going to exist at the end of the year."

He could've said 'only on PS5' if that's what he meant, the statement above could well include Series X and PC hardware.

He also said..."Nanite and Lumen tech powering it will be fully supported on both PS5 and Xbox Series X and will be awesome on both".

Maybe he has brainworms too. :)
 
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geordiemp

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Arrgh, which question is he saying NO to?
He knew exactly what he was saying. Its called having fun, I like his humour.

Earlier tweets he had said no marketing agreement, so your choice :messenger_beaming:

It realy is hard to take for Xbox fans that their box might not be the most powerful at everything, its fun to watch...it really is,..,,,,,

Sweeny was enjoying that reply to the xbox power king poster, you can see the context......damn good as it implys but keeps within NDAs and the usual expected manners.

Sony fans are quite happy to win a fair balance of the races, happy to concede some, happy to win some.
 
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Outrun

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Sony have taken a bit different aproach from MS. Their ultimage goal was not winning the TF fanboy war, but designing a console that really changes the gaming development enviroment with Speed as the center of definition of what the PS5 is all about, with unique custom level decisions that completely removes the need to make typical tricky "gamey" stuff that plagued gaming developers for decades.

It is a platform that really brings a whole New perspective when developing a game.
What kind of nonsense is this?

You have proof that MS built the XSX is order to win a fanboy war? The sooner we move from the tired narrative that it was only Sony that asked devs what they wanted, that the XSX is a lumbering beast compared to the agile PS5 the better.

That is unless you want to keep on perpetuating this shit.
 
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geordiemp

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What kind of nonsense is this?

You have proof that MS built the XSX is order to win a fanboy war? The sooner we move from the tired narrative that it was only Sony that asked devs what they wanted, that the XSX is a lumbering beast compared to the agile PS5 the better.

That is unless you want to keep on perpetuating this shit.
It is pushing it a bit, but Phil did do an interview stating he design goal was 12 TF, double the XB1X, make it happen.

Cerny design goal was make a more efficient games machine for developers and reduce latency and bottlenecks in the whole pipe line..

There is a difference here in starting points, might mean nothing in the end, could all be diminishing returns on everything, lets see how it falls.
 
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geordiemp

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I'm not familiar with the term 'semic'. Semiconducter maybe? Or seismic? What do you rascals get up to?
Semiconductor :messenger_beaming:

By the way, I do have xbox and a couple of Ps4 pros, I just enjoy having fun on here now and again, new gen is vey interesting hardware wise - which I like allot, although I can get a bit sarcy !
 
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Exodia

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Yes, semic, not related to gaming though.
So it has no use in this context? so why state it? It came across that you were trying to imply something. Like you were a electric/software engineer.
If i was a petroleum engineer. I wouldn't for example watch Cerny's presentation and then say "I'm an engineer so i understand everything he's talking about".
That gives the illusion that i'm talking about electrical or software.
 
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geordiemp

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So it has no use in this context? so why state it? It came across that you were trying to imply something. Like you were a electric/software engineer.
If i was a petroleum engineer. I wouldn't for example watch Cerny's presentation and then say "I'm an engineer so i understand everything he's talking about".
That gives the illusion that i'm talking about electrical or software.
Hardware engineer / electronics / semi why does it matter FFS, its a message board, stop being a dick.

I have stated why I find stuff interesting, whats your raison d'etre ?
 
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Exodia

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Hardware engineer / electronics / semi why does it matter FFS, its a message board, stop being a dick.
Never seen someone use "semic" before and i'm not the only one. Stop taking things so personal. My goodness.
Everything is an personal offense to you ppl.
 
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SotaSkoldier

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I am not surprised, you have Cerny on one hand optimising caches and fine detail to remove the smallest of delays.

And MS with big fat API abstraction layers to make all stuff run on all things.

Totally different mindsets, MS great for back compatability but not the most efficient use of hardware.

Choose
Where is everyone getting this narrative from that Microsoft are not efficiently using their hardware? I keep seeing that implied or stated and there is absolutely nothing I have found to support it other than folks using the balance of the PS5 to imply that the Xbox Series X is imbalanced which is not a factual statement at all. Confirmation of one is not confirmation of the other.
 
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geordiemp

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Where is everyone getting this narrative from that Microsoft are not efficiently using their hardware? I keep seeing that implied or stated and there is absolutely nothing I have found to support it other than folks using the balance of the PS5 to imply that the Xbox Series X is imbalanced which is not a factual statement at all. Confirmation of one is not confirmation of the other.
Well the start of current gen, go read about abstraction layer apis, yes times have moved on, we are at DX12 now, but if you cant see the difference in API philosphy then go read up yourself.


Oles Shishkovstov: Let's put it that way - we have seen scenarios where a single CPU core was fully loaded just by issuing draw-calls on Xbox One (and that's surely on the 'mono' driver with several fast-path calls utilised). Then, the same scenario on PS4, it was actually difficult to find those draw-calls in the profile graphs, because they are using almost no time and are barely visible as a result.

In general - I don't really get why they choose DX11 as a starting point for the console. It's a console! Why care about some legacy stuff at all? On PS4, most GPU commands are just a few DWORDs written into the command buffer, let's say just a few CPU clock cycles. On Xbox One it easily could be one million times slower because of all the bookkeeping the API does.
You can look up other interviews, go figure it out you have google.#

Abstraction has benefits, you can run games form other hardware easier, add effects, HDR, change textures and all sorts of stuff, but it is not free
 
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Outrun

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It is pushing it a bit, but Phil did do an interview stating he design goal was 12 TF, double the XB1X, make it happen.

Cerny design goal was make a more efficient games machine for developers and reduce latency and bottlenecks in the whole pipe line..

There is a difference here in starting points, might mean nothing in the end, could all be diminishing returns on everything, lets see how it falls.
Phil also spoke about creating a balanced console design. I don't know how anyone gets "MS designed the XSX to win a fanboy war..." from any of that.

The comment that I was referring to was pure FUD. Both systems are well designed. No one dropped the ball or fucked up. Both will be glorious.
 

cyber69

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Why are you talking like you know what’s going on? You do realize that the only way an expanded SSD will work in PS5 is if matches the speed of their current drive right? Third parties will be making these drives to sell for PS5 and they’ll be available shortly after launch.

In terms of PC nvme SSDs, pci-e 6.0 is due to release next year and will surpass PS5. Not even a year after launch it won’t “nearly match it” it will render Cerny’s “advanced tech” obsolete.

I know the truth hurts but this is a good lesson.
What lesson were you trying to impose on him? How to bend the truth?

Expansion of SSD storage in the PS5 needs to have speeds that exceed what is currently in there (2 vs 6 priority levels).

Reference:


I highly doubt PCIe 6.0 will be supported next year. Additionally, PCIe 5.0 spec has been finalized a ~year ago, yet we don't have any devices that support this. PC adoption of new tech moves at an incredibly slow pace (For example, Intel has yet to adopt 4.0, which was finalized back in 2017). And no one is doubting commercial SSD drives which exceed the PS5s specs won't be available by the time PS5 is released.
 
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cyber69

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Phil also spoke about creating a balanced console design. I don't know how anyone gets "MS designed the XSX to win a fanboy war..." from any of that.

The comment that I was referring to was pure FUD. Both systems are well designed. No one dropped the ball or fucked up. Both will be glorious.
Agreed. What Microsoft is failing to capitalize on is showing people why their console is more powerful (in theoretical Teraflops, it is). Telling people they don't understand 120 FPS, and having no XSX exclusives at launch is not a good way to get your message across. Maybe their July event will change the perception? In comparison, Sony have been relatively quiet.
 

BadBurger

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*Mounts horse, lowers visor on helmet, retrieves sword from his squire*

To the console wars, men.

On a serious note, what a change a generation makes. During the days of the PS3 devs lamented development on Sony's platform. Enter Cerny the mad scientist.