JonTron (youtuber) speaks against demographic "invasion" of America by nonwhites

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Camwi

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Quit the tone policing nonsense. This is what your posts basically amount to. It's been posted before but it bears repeating - we've seen this stance before.

I haven't seen that image before. Looks pretty accurate.
 

Yukinari

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The worst part about TB's gizmodo bit is that he says these people should be educating or telling Jon why hes wrong rather than condemning him for it.

Did he not see Destiny try and do that with no success? Its what happens when you get redpilled constantly.
 

RustyNails

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Best to ignore the political or religious leanings of people who's work you enjoy. As long as it doesn't influence the actual content they produce its best to ignore...
Let me guess. You're probably NOT a member of minority that is getting abused in today's America, both through words and actions.
 

Orayn

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Oh, I agree with that, your previous comments didnt really make that clear.
It hasn't really entered into my mind in any significant way because he won't suffer any consequences at all. He'll just jump ship to a new fanbase of Nazis and carry on like nothing happened because there's money in that.
 

Stead Fast

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The worst part about TB's gizmodo bit is that he says these people should be educating or telling Jon why hes wrong rather than condemning him for it.

Did he not see Destiny try and do that with no success? Its what happens when you get redpilled constantly.
No doubt he did, but he has no leg to stand on in engaging with that part of the topic; Destiny did everything TB claims to want to do, with more elegance. Ignoring that part of the story is best, else he'd have to step off that fence and either out Jontron which he clearly wants to avoid, or try to discredit Desitny, which he is woefully unprepared to do.
 

Galava

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...he won't suffer any consequences at all. He'll just jump ship to a new fanbase of Nazis and carry on like nothing happened because there's money in that.
Or because people will forget it by next week because other shit will happen on the internetz.
 

Darryl M R

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People are making a great point. Destiny did everything TB mentioned. So what now? Should everyone spend an hour plus with JonTron so he can awkwardly laugh and bring up fake statistics and alternative facts?

Let me guess. You're probably NOT a member of minority that is getting abused in today's America, both through words and actions.
From her posts I can refer that she is a white woman but brushed off Colin M's actions these last week as nothing more than dad jokes that her husband would make.
 

Mechanized

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The worst part about TB's gizmodo bit is that he says these people should be educating or telling Jon why hes wrong rather than condemning him for it.

Did he not see Destiny try and do that with no success? Its what happens when you get redpilled constantly.
And Jon's response: "That's not true, this is how it is, it's a fact. Look it up. *Sources nothing or an alt-right trash site*
 

Nick_C

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This is literally the point of all rational debate. To prove your ideas over others. Persuasive arguments.
There's a difference between indoctrination and education.

The point of rational debate is to argue the merits of what you believe to be true. Through empathay and understanding the opposing side's perspective, along with fact, you can learn what is actually true. None should be told how to think, they should learn why what they believe is factually correct or incorrect.

Only the illogical or unreasonable will still defend untruths.
 

Jacce

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Edited: I retract from my comments, lost track of my line of argument and poor choice of words made me sound pretty supportive :(
Calling a white supremacist a racist doesn't make us a racist. JonTron publicly embraces views of hate groups like the KKK and NeoNazi's. Calling him out on that doesn't make us racists.
 
Jul 30, 2015
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The worst part about TB's gizmodo bit is that he says these people should be educating or telling Jon why hes wrong rather than condemning him for it.

Did he not see Destiny try and do that with no success? Its what happens when you get redpilled constantly.
Yeah, exactly. Why is the impetus always put on people to change racists, and not on the racists to change themselves?

I have no tolerance for this shit. It's 2017. If you're a racist, you know exactly why you're a racist. It's not like these people are sheltered from outside views and don't know any better. This is the internet, all of the information is there. They're actively choosing that path
 
Oct 29, 2014
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Best to ignore the political or religious leanings of people who's work you enjoy. As long as it doesn't influence the actual content they produce its best to ignore...
No, no the fuck it isn't!! I'm not ignoring the shit jontron said because that shits hurts me, a black man!! Fuck jontron and his stupid deflecting pal, TB! Fuck them both.
 

ISee

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I don't like to play police or make people change their opinions, if you want to unsub do it, but do not try to make people think the same way you do, because that's just plain wrong.
You can try to discuss it, but throwing shit and name-calling is straight-up harassment.
If you don't like someone's opinion, just ignore him/her, simple.

Keep it civil guys.
As someone who grew up in a country that did unspeakable crimes against humanity in the past (germany): You are wrong. Every member of a free, modern society has to speak up against hate speech, oppression and racism. If you don't, stuff can become very ugly over a couple of years. I can tell you that by taking a quick look at our history. Freedom also has it limits. We are living in societies, so we aren't free to do whatever we want. There are rules and laws regulating our freedom and that's a reasonable thing to do, granted not every law is good but that's why every democracy has a way to change them.
Freedom of speech works in similar ways. You are free to say whatever you want, no matter how stupid it is with one mayor exception: you aren't allowed to attack the dignity of another human being. So you can't insult somebody else and you also can't say racist things like:"blacks are criminals because it is in their dna. " That's an idiotic statement to make in the first place (from a scientific standpoint) but that's not the problem. The problem is attacking the human dignity of other people, that is the line your freedom of speech isn't allowed to cross.
JT isn't going to prison because of what he said, but a modern society has to point it out and make a stand against it. Especially if it is somebody in the public eye, a celebrity with several thousand of fans.
 

Facism

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Best to ignore the political or religious leanings of people who's work you enjoy. As long as it doesn't influence the actual content they produce its best to ignore...
i'd rather not do anything that puts money in the pocket of people with scumbag beliefs and ethics, thanks.
 

Lime

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When the US rightwing is so far right, is the "moderate" still moderate?
In these precarious times when a fascist and his horror cabinet is in charge of the world's most powerful country, these unaffected moderates will at some point have to draw a line. But they'll keep on trying to be above everyone while people are getting murdered and imprisoned and deported and complain about the SJWs *and* the fascists while dismissing their reaction to systematic oppression as outrage culture.

"oh look, that Mexican immigrant is being deported and torn away from his family, typical outrage and PC culture ruining everything."

"oh look, every quarter of black men are getting imprisoned and the prison industrial complex is basically just modern chattel slavery, if only they would act more nicely people wouldn't have voted for a fascist"

"oh look women are losing their rights over their bodies because of some old white men deciding what's best for them, typical feminist cunts always nagging and complaining"

etc.
 

thumb

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And Jon's response: "That's not true, this is how it is, it's a fact. Look it up. *Sources nothing or an alt-right trash site*
I'm glad Destiny stepped up to engage him on these things. And, unfortunately, JonTron showed no signs of changing his mind. But to be fair, that's pretty common. People rarely change their minds in the midst of an argument. Instead, they have to sit on it for a while. These things take time.

But that's not me claiming that JonTron will change his mind, only me acknowledging how humans generally work.
 

MrHoot

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Really? I entered the discussion here with THIS.
Well, the thing is, TB is wrong on...a lot

Apart from making an obvious 19 minute deflection, I can point to quite a few things that are just utter bullshit.

The fact he calls out Gizmodo for not "fact checking" something obvious that no, rich blacks don't commit more crimes than poor whites, because there's no need to when it's that fucking obvious. Even moreso when Jon himself is incapable of providing stats (because there are none that prove his point). It is not Gizmodo's, or any journal's job to have little annotation for every point they make when the original point is that imbecilic, regardless of the quality of Gizmodo's article (and yeah it's quite meh but honestly, for that kind of thing who gives a shit). Yet TB smugly tries to advance this like he's making a point.

Tries to advance (also in his second rant) that Gizmodo doesn't source anything yet the video is right. fucking. there. Again, all Gizmodo is doing is echoing the rope with which Jon is hanging himself with. Yet the fault lies with Gizmodo who's somehow bullying Jon ? Trying to virtue signal ? Also apparently are thirsty for a witch hunt.

Spends minutes lamenting his poor judgment call against trump supporters. Starts his little tirade by doing a vast paint burst judgment call against his critics, alluding them to virtue signallers, intellectual masturbators. Tries to promote the value of polite discourse by being an insulting douchebag lambasting an entire segment of people.

Speaking of polite discourse, thinking it's the only thing that can win trump supporter overs, obviously has no idea about the civil rights movement history. Ignores or conveniently forgets chapters like the deacons for defense and justice, a group of armed black men, preceding the black power movement, that succesfully fought against the KKK in Bogalosa as black people were constantly harassed and threatened by members of an entire town affiliated to the KKK. Conveniently ignores also many acts by MLK that were not just "peaceful discussion". Hell ignores a lot of things about general fights against injustice where, in fact, a lot of people had to fight. Uses one story to push his entire argument.

Conveniently ignores the ENTIRE DISCOURSE TAKING PLACE BETWEEN DESTINY AND JON, showing that polite discourse doesn't do much when a bigot is basically going unchallenged by his peers for so long. Completely rejects the responsibility of peers.

Says that can't shittalk partners. Didn't realize JonTron was a business partner ? Also that there were clause preventing from obvious call outs against racist tirades. Jim Sterling isn't spineless on the issue. In any case, doesn't really give an actual context for this, but we are to believe him. Fair enough ?

Talks about journalistic integrity while having himself been responsible for vehiculing poorly researched hit pieces during the GG era, backpeddaled on it and somehow never brings it up again.

Alludes that BLM and ALM are just a "misunderstanding", conveniently ignoring that ALM is a fabricated movement done to discredit BLM.

After a handful of criticism on twitter, here and on his first soundcloud which were all fairly tame and called out mostly on the bullshit he was spewing, barely an hour or so after did another soundcloud like he was being mobbed, proceeded to close comments.

I don't think TB is a bigot. But his narcissism and pseudo intellectualism really made him show his ass on this one as he obviously has little grasp on history (as he admits himself) and while the second best thing he could've done then is remain silent and keep matters private, he decided to out himself as a gigantic douche by deflecting from his white supremacist friend with two soundclouds. It maybe not defending him, but it surely ain't edifying either. I could probably dive in again and pick apart more of his SC recording but honestly at this point, i'm tired, and need to focus on work.
 

Gestault

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Or because people will forget it by next week because other shit will happen on the internetz.
Are you phrasing this as a negative, or a positive?

I'm asking because even though you claimed you misspoke earlier, and that it was a language barrier thing, this response continues to sound like it's downplaying the original statements by Jontron and implying this is an irrational mob scenario. It's the direction of basically every comment you make. I'm inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt, but you stretch the credibility of someone claiming a misunderstanding.

Edit: Appreciate the clarification.
 

Galava

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Again, I retracted from that comment.

I come from a country that had a dictatorship that hindered freedom of speech until 1975 (spain), in which we couldn't speak any other regional language besides spanish and that killed many people fighting for their rights (friends of family and family members). So yeah, I know about it.

I agree on everything you said, just wanted to tell my "story".


Are you phrasing this as a negative, or a positive?

I'm asking because even though you claimed you misspoke earlier, and that it was a language barrier thing, this response continues to sound like it's saying the original statements by Jontron aren't really a big deal.
As a negative, it's sad that people just forget about this important stuff that happens.
 

Felix Lighter

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It has become increasingly frustrating to deal with the alt-right when seemingly neutral people get upset when these types of disgusting world views get challenged harshly.

We are attacking a world view that believes non-European whites are genetically inferior and there is a need to protect the American white gene pool through public policy from the foreign invaders and we get called out for getting emotional.

We point out that these people are attacking the very existence of most other ethnic groups in the world and the response is, well yeah, but what can you expect from white supremacists, but if you attack these opinions you are the same.
 

Sixfortyfive

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Arin's laughter there - in retrospect - seems so uncomfortable and nervous, rather than finding what he said funny.
It might be worth rewatching early Game Grumps at some point with the subtext that it's really about one man who slowly learns over the course of a year that his friend is out of his fucking mind.
 

Nepenthe

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First of all, this got a healthy chuckle. More to the point though, I never understood how not tolerating intolerance makes you intolerant, or, "See? You're no better than we are. Hypocrites!"
There's always a concerted effort by bigots and those who profit off of bigotry to co-opt the language of freedom fighters regardless of context and thus try to discredit progressive ideals from within, so "we should be tolerant of people different from us" came to include racists into the fold.

The oversight with this is that bigots thought tolerance was an overarching moral code that could not be breached, versus a contract that advocates peace against those who do not perform or advocate harm of which beach of the contract means self-defense comes into play.

As more and more of these shitheads get cornered, embarrassed, dropped by their sponsors, hammered in their subscriptions, fired from their jobs, ostracized from their social circles, and suckerpunched on the street as people come to see them as the threat they really are, they'll eventually learn to back the fuck off and change tactics. Maybe one day they'll be able to argue their fuckery on their own merits without equivalence and deflection.
 

Darryl M R

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Within my first Writings and Humanities college course we were instructed that citation is not needed for well known facts.

TB shouting that the article need sources does not make any sense because the claims made are well known and are counters to JonTron's outrageous claims.
 

Nick_C

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Best to ignore the political or religious leanings of people who's work you enjoy. As long as it doesn't influence the actual content they produce its best to ignore...
Here's the fallacy in that argument though, people create art to express themselves. You can't separate art and artist. Without the artist the end result wouldn't exist.
 
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Within my first Writings and Humanities college course we were instructed that citation is not needed for well known facts.

TB shouting that the article need sources does not make any sense because the claims made are well known and are counters to JonTron's outrageous claims.
It's also something that's bannable here too which makes it even more hilarious. If you're going to make crazy outlandish claims, the burden of proof is not on me to prove that you're crazy bullshit isn't right. JonTron offered nothing and was actually debated even though people like V_Arnold want to stick their head in the sand and pretend that Gizmodo was the one who broke this story or has anything in the least to do with the topic at hand.
 

DorkLord54

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"You speak pretty my friend, but darkies are inferior and Beyoncé is out here committing more crime than meth addicts"

Sounds like someone really interested in doing the right thing to me
You clearly didn't see Steve Harvey attempt to steal Miss Universe from Miss Philippines.

And it's disappointing to see people stanning for him after TB decided to try and deflect the criticism away. It's easy to separate the art from the artist from, say, Lovecraft because he's long dead; this changes when the person is alive.

What Jon said wasn't just offensive, it was explicit white nationalist talking points, including a variant on one of the most famous internet hate mantras:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-racist_is_a_code_word_for_anti-white
 
Apr 1, 2013
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Within my first Writings and Humanities college course we were instructed that citation is not needed for well known facts.

TB shouting that the article need sources does not make any sense because the claims made are well known and are counters to JonTron's outrageous claims.
Yeah, but if he considered that he would lose a couple of minutes from his rant at Gawker, so where's the logic in doing that?!

It's interesting that he was more interested in talking about a scummy media corporation than an influential peer with white supremacist views.
 

Nick_C

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There's always a concerted effort by bigots and those who profit off of bigotry to co-opt the language of freedom fighters regardless of context and thus try to discredit progressive ideals from within, so "we should be tolerant of people different from us" came to include racists into the fold.

The oversight with this is that bigots thought tolerance was an overarching moral code that could not be breached, versus a contract that advocates peace against those who do not perform or advocate harm of which beach of the contract means self-defense comes into play.

As more and more of these shitheads get cornered, embarrassed, dropped by their sponsors, hammered in their subscriptions, fired from their jobs, ostracized from their social circles, and suckerpunched on the street as people come to see them as the threat they really are, they'll eventually learn to back the fuck off and change tactics. Maybe one day they'll be able to argue their fuckery on their own merits without equivalence and deflection.
It's like the whole argument relies on the "Gotcha!" moment. Like me not tolerating racist, bigoted bullshit is no different from them saying that people of a certain background are threatening their well-being.
 

Felix Lighter

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In the past, other prominent alt-right personalities have been smart enough to hide behind dog whistles and more subtle white supremacist talking points to attempt to appear rational to those who aren't familiar with their tactics. Then it almost made sense why some people not paying close enough attention would want to stick up for someone they feel is being bullied for their opinion.

But now that JonTron has been stupid enough to spew out the true, uncut white supremacy, the kind typically only publicly stated by proud Neo-Nazis and similar ilk, we still hear cries that the poor man deserves the benefit of the doubt.
 

BlueMagic

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Been out of the loop for a while on this. What did TB say that everyone seems to be talking about him? OP has nothing and came back 3 or 4 pages but couldn't find anything.
 
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Been out of the loop for a while on this. What did TB say that everyone seems to be talking about him? OP has nothing and came back 3 or 4 pages but couldn't find anything.
He released two nonsensical audio logs about the situation where he seemed to have blamed everyone but Jon
 

Felix Lighter

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Been out of the loop for a while on this. What did TB say that everyone seems to be talking about him? OP has nothing and came back 3 or 4 pages but couldn't find anything.
He's tripping over himself to protect JonTron from detractors under the guise that while his beliefs are factually unfounded, he shouldn't be attacked for his beliefs. Also Gizmodo is the real problem here.
 

Barzul

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Exactly.
Why is an Iranian/Hungarian descendant spouting this nonsense?

Who knows? But than again, I'm done trying to understand these "alt-right/neo-nazi/xenophobe"-type people...
Wait he has Iranian ancestry? Does he think he would've survived Nazi Germany? He's just a convenient fool for the alt-right.
 

NotLiquid

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Says that can't shittalk partners. Didn't realize JonTron was a business partner ? Also that there were clause preventing from obvious call outs against racist tirades. Jim Sterling isn't spineless on the issue. In any case, doesn't really give an actual context for this, but we are to believe him. Fair enough ?
In his defense, this might be an actual valid reason, perhaps THE reason, that no one Jon is close to, such as h3h3, is going to speak up against Jon. I think I recall something a while ago about how Polaris/Maker had a policy against infighting or potentially defaming people under the same banner. At least, I recall TB saying once on a stream that he "knew" the real reason why Jon left Game Grumps but wasn't allowed to actually say why due to the fact that Polaris wouldn't be happy about it. It's likely the reason why neither Arin or Jon ever commented publicly in detail on the actual reason why Jon and Arin went separate ways - although Jon himself makes it no secret if you ask him privately and at conventions and such.

It's also likely this is why it's so convenient for major YouTubers to completely ignore issues like these unless they're coming to their defense. Pewdiepie is an exception now because he's not part of Maker anymore, but he's such a massive cult of personality and could at least attribute it to the "joke gone wrong" crowd that people were probably far more charitable to flock to his defense. I don't think the same would happen for Jon because he deliberately invokes radical, hard-to-justify beliefs.

Oh, speaking of Jim he tweeted about the Jon stuff.
 

Stead Fast

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Been out of the loop for a while on this. What did TB say that everyone seems to be talking about him? OP has nothing and came back 3 or 4 pages but couldn't find anything.
He made two half hour SoundCloud pieces on Gizmodo being hacks for jumping on Jontron, ignores any discussion about the stream with Destiny, decries any use of calling a racist a racist, then goes on to defend his own name from commenters after missing the whole point of this debacle in an attempt to sound like the smartest guy in the room.
 

Zakalwe

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Yes, Destiny tried to explain this to Jon, but Destiny's approach wasn't perfect. He often talked over Jon instead of letting him speak and pulling his points apart carefully, every time he made a valid point the conversation quickly moved on and Jon didn't have time to dwell or digest it. Destiny isn't a perfect debater either, and his frustration with speaking with Jon obviously got to him.

Also, it was public. Jon is obviously going to be on the defensive if he feels himself slipping, hence all the giggling and struggling, but that doesn't make for a very receptive mind.

I'm not saying anything other than the forum wasn't perfect. Yes the conversation failed here, but it might work on a more personal level.

And this is the problem...

It's going to be very rare that a person changes their views after being hounded online, especially as for every rational person online there seems to be a half-dozen hurling insults. It's going to be very rare that an online public debate like the one with Destiny changes anyone's mind as defences are too raised.

What needs to happen is education at a more personal level. Friends, family, possibly people from his local community reaching out... people who could potentially approach this without the defences being raised, but we can't control that, all we can do is add to the noise online.

Jon isn't going to change his views based on this because he's already being coddled by his alt-right fanbase and supporters, but that doesn't mean he's unreachable.
 

Cloukyo

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Let me guess. You're probably NOT a member of minority that is getting abused in today's America, both through words and actions.
Well I'm not a white male if that's what you're asking.

I'm not an American.

Japanese people get barely any representation on TV, and I don't really feel very abused as a girl (but I'm not getting into feminism again).

I'm a fan of a few musicians and artists who have unsavoury pasts or beliefs. Actors who are known for womanising, drinking and driving, heinous crimes, it doesn't stop me from watching their movies/listening to their music.

I'm not saying it wouldn't affect my perception of them if I didn't know (eg. when I found out Kelsy Grammar was an alcoholic, sexist hardcore christian and republican) but you have to look past it and just enjoy the content (as long as the content is free from their political crap)
 

Sai-kun

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Well I'm not a white male if that's what you're asking.

I'm not an American.

Japanese people get barely any representation on TV, and I don't really feel very abused as a girl (but I'm not getting into feminism again).

I'm a fan of a few musicians and artists who have unsavoury pasts or beliefs. Actors who are known for womanising, drinking and driving, heinous crimes, it doesn't stop me from watching their movies/listening to their music.

I'm not saying it wouldn't affect my perception of them if I didn't know (eg. when I found out Kelsy Grammar was an alcoholic, sexist hardcore christian and republican) but you have to look past it and just enjoy the content (as long as the content is free from their political crap)
If you're not American, you can miss all of us with the 'well IM a minority and I feel FINE about things' bs.

Also lol @ comparing drinking and driving to white supremacy.
 

Stead Fast

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Wait he has Iranian ancestry? Does he think he would've survived Nazi Germany? He's just a convenient fool for the alt-right.
He's not thinking about Nazi Germany however, I'd wager the more moronic followers of the Right know even a fraction of Nazi history. They like the idea of White American empowerment, the same way the Nazi party sold their Aryan shit to so many followers. I've no doubt Jontron would publicly celebrate the US's involvement for overthrowing Nazi Germany, I've seen people here in the UK do the same; however, these people see war victories as aggressive signs of 'Fuck Yeah [insert nation here]! We're the fucking best!" rather than a concerted effort to beat a vile dictatorship. Jontron seems to believe being an American means being white, relatively well off and the need to use those three traits to assert dominance over any type of race or ethnicity, or even sex.

The saddest fact here is though that a lot of people who can influence him still do care about that dirty Iranian ancestry. They just know to bide their time with their discrimination...
 
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