• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Kaz Yamauchi about the Gran Turismo future: "4K is enough, but 240fps is the target

SleepDoctor

Banned
Nov 11, 2019
2,355
4,625
515
Ok so the Ps5 is "8k" capable now but "4k is enough" lmao.

Let's get some native 4k/60fps games first and then we'll see. If this was Spencer talking half the people in would have the pitchforks out 🤣🤣🤣
 
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: DoctaThompson

Woo-Fu

Banned
Jan 2, 2007
18,685
9,824
1,695
How about more detail instead? (Blind) People already struggle to see a difference between 30 and 60, who does he want to sell 240 fps? Does he realize that a racing game running at 60 fps will look around 4 times as good as one running at 240 fps on the same hardware (numbers from John Carmack when he compared the difference between 60 fps and 30 fps, doubling the framerate equals losing 50 % the fidelity)?

When will some people realize that FPS isn't simply about what your eye is capable of seeing? I'm assuming never since somebody brings it up every time this discussion rolls around? You can feel the difference in character responsiveness to input in practically any action game. Well, maybe you can't, but I certainly can. If you have a PC capable of running a game at 30/60/~120 FPS and a game/utility to lock the refresh rate, try it yourself.

I'd assume that Kaz considers his games simulations and as such increased responsiveness of the cars is worth being on the wrong side of a Carmack lecture probably made in support of crappy VR hardware. That said I can't find your source, every Carmack article Google pulls up has him arguing for higher FPS and lamenting how common 30FPS is for console games.

That said, 240Hz is a ridiculous goal for somebody making a console game today. A man's reach should exceed his grasp, right? ;)
 
Last edited:

AGRacing

Member
Sep 26, 2016
736
1,370
575
Alberta, Canada
Alright I’ve heard enough.... I think the rumours of launch GT7/8 are true. It has barely any new assets. Uses essentially PS4 assets at full 4K and 120HZ. Basically a repackaged and better campaigned GT Sport with all the downloadable tracks and cars that came along afterward.... and perhaps a handful more. They’re going to play up an “improved physics model” and other barely noticeable or invisible features. Nobody will care because it’s a launch game and it’ll sell 10 million copies lifetime.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Inviusx

rofif

Member
Sep 13, 2019
6,041
8,337
595
4K is great but even on 27" 4k monitor, But I can still see aliasing without any aa technique used. That said -even fxaa removes all jaggies at 4k.
For me personally, 4k 60fps is more preferred than 1080p 240hz
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kuranghi

Inviusx

Member
Jan 4, 2016
1,965
2,118
540
Alright I’ve heard enough.... I think the rumours of launch GT7/8 are true. It has barely any new assets. Uses essentially PS4 assets at full 4K and 120HZ. Basically a repackaged and better campaigned GT Sport with all the downloadable tracks and cars that came along afterward.... and perhaps a handful more. They’re going to play up an “improved physics model” and other barely noticeable or invisible features. Nobody will care because it’s a launch game and it’ll sell 10 million copies lifetime.

I would give my left nut for that.

PS5 announcement, "we will support 120hz out the box for compatible HDMI 2.1 TVs", Kaz takes the stage and announce GT: Sport Redline an updated version of Sport including 120hz support, all paid DLC included, new tracks and cars and VR support for the whole game.

Fuck man.
 
Last edited:
  • Triggered
Reactions: SoloKingRobert

vkbest

Member
Jan 23, 2017
1,666
1,642
500
Some people expecting GT7 early PS5 release, will be pissed. Im betting GT Sport will length for years and will have a patch or new version for PS5.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Three

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
Dec 3, 2004
4,042
1,577
1,755
I dunno about anybody else here. But a good frame rate gives me so much more than a higher resolution would.

I really really appreciate whenever I get consistent 60fps in a major game. It's my wet dream that all games would be that or higher one day.
 

StormCell

Member
Dec 11, 2018
2,947
3,054
550
The problem is that higer resolution is great for marketing to normies.

"8K RESOLUTION" looks better in an ad, than "240fps!"

Yeah, and I sometimes think the actual problem is 8K is much easier for TV makers to do than 240fps. I'm nothing near an expert in TV technology, but modern TVs seem to suck at things refreshing rapidly and forget about panning shots as that usually just introduces lots of stuttering. Am I wrong or has this continued to be a problem for more than a decade already?
 
Last edited:

AGRacing

Member
Sep 26, 2016
736
1,370
575
Alberta, Canada
I would give my left nut for that.

PS5 announcement, "we will support 120hz out the box for compatible HDMI 2.1 TVs", Kaz takes the stage and announce GT: Sport Redline an updated version of Sport including 120hz support, all paid DLC included, new tracks and cars and VR support for the whole game.

Fuck man.

Yeah I’ve got a C9 and would go for it too.... but this just happens to be the obvious answer to the question “How do they make Gran Turismo a launch game” and the answer of course is do the least amount of asset creation as possible. Running at 120hz is just a happy byproduct of that.

I was thinking and maybe someone can confirm.... I do remember hearing during GT Sport release that the car models they were creating were beyond what PS4 could actually handle.... to sort of prep them for next gen out of the gate.
 

scalman

Member
Feb 6, 2019
2,976
2,109
415
well best thing give us options : resolution, fps or visuals. there are options now on GTS on ps4 pro so i think there will be options GT7 on PS5 as well , there must be, so everyone could pick its more important for him. im waiting GT7 for single player only reason. Kazu said it will be proper single player in new game and online races too. all in one.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
47,185
13,966
2,000
This is stupid. 60 fps is high enough. Just make the next GT game 4K native\60fps with great ray-tracing. Why is that so hard?
 

DS_Joost

Member
Feb 16, 2018
500
431
330
Yeah I’ve got a C9 and would go for it too.... but this just happens to be the obvious answer to the question “How do they make Gran Turismo a launch game” and the answer of course is do the least amount of asset creation as possible. Running at 120hz is just a happy byproduct of that.

I was thinking and maybe someone can confirm.... I do remember hearing during GT Sport release that the car models they were creating were beyond what PS4 could actually handle.... to sort of prep them for next gen out of the gate.

I'm a huge GT lover but Kaz has said that every single fucking time a new gen came around... And then they continue to rebuild them from scratch...

Every. Single. Damn. Time.
 

Kamina

Golden Boy
Jun 2, 2013
7,920
7,005
985
35
Austria
I’ve heard that there is a difference between 60 and 120, and i belive it.
But is there even a noticeable difference between 120 and 240?
 
Last edited:

Thaedolus

Banned
Jun 9, 2004
11,550
5,710
1,875
I’ve heard that there is a difference between 60 and 120, and i belive it.
But is there even a noticeable difference between 120 and 240?

There is but very much a case of diminishing returns. The horsepower is better spent elsewhere. 120hz gaming is great and very much a smoother experience than 60FPS, but I bet most people would be hard pressed to really notice a huge difference between 120 and 240, and its 2x the horsepower. Unless you’re some esport champion you’re better off putting the resources into other effects.
 
Last edited:

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
10,111
23,966
970
Ireland

INC

Member
Jan 8, 2018
7,285
14,564
730
240.......why? most monitors/tv wont have the refresh rate

120 is perfectly fine

1440p 120fps and they can improve on not having cardboard looking trees and crowds
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Kerotan Frog

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
10,111
23,966
970
Ireland
240.......why? most monitors/tv wont have the refresh rate

120 is perfectly fine

1440p 120fps and they can improve on not having cardboard looking trees and crowds
They did an FPS test on one of those PC youtube channels and they said that the faster the PC / console can refresh, the faster that information shows on screen even if the screen is 60 fps.

It can get the latest info to the screen a few frames earlier and give you an advantage but they mostly did it on shooters.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: sn0man

INC

Member
Jan 8, 2018
7,285
14,564
730
They did an FPS test on one of those PC youtube channels and they said that the faster the PC / console can refresh, the faster that information shows on screen even if the screen is 60 fps.

It can get the latest info to the screen a few frames earlier and give you an advantage but they mostly did it on shooters.

are ok, so more for pre rendering future frames?

being a complete noob, hearing targeting 240fps, just seems like a waste of resources, when 120fps is still perfectly fine, and would give back more power to do other stuff
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bryank75

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
10,111
23,966
970
Ireland
are ok, so more for pre rendering future frames?

being a complete noob, hearing targeting 240fps, just seems like a waste of resources, when 120fps is still perfectly fine, and would give back more power to do other stuff
Yeah, I think 120 is plenty... particularly if it has a large single player focus. But it's loads for a driving game, you don't have as much to do as in a shooter and you can pretty much visualize what is going to happen ahead because of track memorization and driving lines etc.
 

INC

Member
Jan 8, 2018
7,285
14,564
730
Yeah, I think 120 is plenty... particularly if it has a large single player focus. But it's loads for a driving game, you don't have as much to do as in a shooter and you can pretty much visualize what is going to happen ahead because of track memorization and driving lines etc.

so why arent all pc sim racers aiming for 240fps then?

i dont see why this is 'thing'

like fixing a problem that doesnt exist, just to say 'omg 240fps'

or am i seeing this all wrong?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bryank75

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
10,111
23,966
970
Ireland
so why arent all pc sim racers aiming for 240fps then?

i dont see why this is 'thing'

like fixing a problem that doesnt exist, just to say 'omg 240fps'

or am i seeing this all wrong?
I think you're right 240 is too much. 60 to 120 is good.
I guess he just wants to market it as the smoothest driving game or something like that. Or maybe he experienced it and felt it made a difference but I am just speculating now....
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
49,171
104,514
1,430
I think you're right 240 is too much. 60 to 120 is good.
I guess he just wants to market it as the smoothest driving game or something like that. Or maybe he experienced it and felt it made a difference but I am just speculating now....

Set the sights high, that way you can have a nice cap for VR at 120FPS.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Bryank75

BattleScar

Member
Jul 29, 2016
1,047
2,266
485
Nitpicking, but isn't it 1800C (i.e. 1800P checkerboarded)? It looks damn nice though, not disputing that, especially the HDR implementation is terrific.

P stands for Progressive scan, as opposed to Interlaced as was the case with old CRT TVs.

It doesn't matter if its checkerboarded or not.
That all aside, 1800p is too random a resolution to be checkerboarding to, its likely native 1800p, which is then either upscaled or checkerboarded to 4k. Feel free to correct me on that if anyone does know for certain.
 

entremet

Member
Dec 6, 2008
85,705
383
1,455
I feel like Kaz doesn't get it.

He's a mad genius with no real accountability at Sony since GT is such a mega-hit.

He makes no sense. 120mhz is considered bleeding-edge in the console space, and he's talking about 240hz?
 
Last edited:
  • Fire
Reactions: mckmas8808

INC

Member
Jan 8, 2018
7,285
14,564
730
I think you're right 240 is too much. 60 to 120 is good.
I guess he just wants to market it as the smoothest driving game or something like that. Or maybe he experienced it and felt it made a difference but I am just speculating now....

sure, there maybe more too it, or it could just be sony marketing spouting buzz words, just never heard of 240fps being important in a sim racer, or any game tbh, all the tests they did on hz/fps, after 144hz/fps, it wasnt even that noticeable (granted this was for FPS games like csgo and R6)

just an odd number to use, again im a complete noob and know fuck all
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bryank75

Jigga117

Member
Aug 26, 2019
724
726
350
Apparently GT is coming to PC? The hell is he talking about a target the PS5 isn’t going to do
 

ABnormal

Member
Mar 20, 2020
220
402
250
It is so difficult to understand that he is not speaking of gt7 or ps5? He is just speaking of what he would like to reach eventually.
 

Kerotan Frog

Member
Oct 19, 2013
1,225
784
600
Yeah, I'm in favor of 4k 60 with much better modeling, effects, lighting, and detail. We don't need to keep pushing for astronomical framerates when the games doesn't look as good as it could.

Hot Take: You know what looks more lifelike than GT? Old ass NASCAR footage from 1986. We keep pushing resolution and framerate without improving the overall look of the games. I want to finally cross that uncanny valley this gen and actually believe what I'm seeing is real.

To be fair, GT does get close because they don't have to render cartoony character models we see up close. But on the other hand, they still have cardboard trees and crowd..
 

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
10,111
23,966
970
Ireland
sure, there maybe more too it, or it could just be sony marketing spouting buzz words, just never heard of 240fps being important in a sim racer, or any game tbh, all the tests they did on hz/fps, after 144hz/fps, it wasnt even that noticeable (granted this was for FPS games like csgo and R6)

just an odd number to use, again im a complete noob and know fuck all
Seems like you know as much or more than me... :)
 

HTK

Member
May 13, 2011
634
743
905
I think native 4k at 120fps is the sweet spot if they can pull it off.
 

Jigga117

Member
Aug 26, 2019
724
726
350
I can see both Forza and GT doing 120fps. I honestly have more faith in Turn 10 vs Poly achieving this based on their last target attempts
 
  • Like
Reactions: sn0man

Woodchipper

Member
May 8, 2014
1,075
504
615
Sweden
This is worrying. This series has been heading straight to hell since GT5, and this does not give me the implication that they’re learning what’s important.

How about just focusing on making an awesome and fun racing game which actually works, like the early entries in the series, and optimize it at a locked 60 FPS?

The AI in GT Sport is the fucking worst in the business. Try to fix that before anything else, instead of wasting time on photo mode locations and weird ass trivia slide shows, and saying shit like “240 FPS”.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: sn0man

Romulus

Member
Mar 21, 2019
6,502
7,580
555
This is irrelevant for 99% of players. Plenty of people are happy playing Switch at 720p and 30 fps.

I can be happy playing my original Xbox at 480p all day long, but it doesn't mean the same games at 4k and 2-3x the framerate aren't a vastly superior experience. Hell most people haven't even played games above 120fps to know how massive of a difference that makes. Ignorance is bliss.