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[HP_Wuvcraft]

I have given my axe to StarCrawlers.

That is always the issue, right? So many kickstarters claim the money is not paying anyone but paying "dev costs" and it always confuses me. Sometimes, however, it only goes externally, like to pay coders/artists but not the designer.

I myself do all the art/animation/design, etc. The programmer I'm working with does all the code. The composer gets paid on a per minute basis of music and my wife, who does art and a bunch of other stuff takes no payment at all.

And that's not even counting the people who help test the game for us who do it for free.

A lot of Kickstarters - and these are mainly the ones I don't pledge to - don't have a breakdown of the budget. If I see a breakdown, I know they have at least an inch of financial responsibility.

 

[sprinkles]

Heads up on Dysfunctional Systems for some who may have missed the thread.

I just backed this after finishing reading episode 1. Very good SciFi Visual Novel, with a darker than expected story.

 

[More_Badass]

I have given my axe to StarCrawlers.



A lot of Kickstarters - and these are mainly the ones I don't pledge to - don't have a breakdown of the budget. If I see a breakdown, I know they have at least an inch of financial responsibility.

I know at least quite a few of the recent games I've backed have had breakdowns. And I think most of them have listed living expenses or said they're using funds to support themselves so they can work full-time on a project

 

[MrCunningham]

Nice too see someone carry on my legacy! Honestly I was almost tempted to start a 2014 thread, but I can't find the time to really maintain one. Also good idea on doubling the OP to 6 posts, I ran out of character space about a month before 2013 ended in the previous thread. It may look over excessive, but those posts are going to balloon in size.

and good job on the submission template too, this is something I hope people will follow, as it will make More_Badass's life a lot easier when he updates the OP's.

And if you need a better header image, I could whip up a new one.

 

[Polioliolio]

No, I don't know what that dude you were quoting is talking about. It's perfectly natural that the Kickstarter money goes towards your own upkeep (food, rent, bills). The whole idea of Kickstarter is to get enough money so that you can focus on making the game and eating and having a roof over your head is of course pretty important for that. Though, of course you should also think about if you'll need any composers or new equipment or the like that you need to pay for and if that 10k is enough for that. I guess that's what he means with "going towards development", but of course you not dying from hunger and you needing a place where you can even develop the game are of course the KS money "going towards development". You're basically asking for a few months pay with the Kickstarter if you're the sole developer and how you use that is completely up to you. It's no different from Obsidian getting millions of dollars and using that money to pay the wages of the employees, wages that they'll use to buy food & pay rent and the like.

Thanks. Maybe it seems obvious, but I'm so used to seeing this stuff on a larger scale, where money is paid for 'sound design, more levels, and so on' possibly to dozens or hundreds of people.. It seems weird to consider what I was asking about concerning a developer of one individual, or two.

Exactly. You'll need to pay for things. Making anything takes money. Software, supplies, etc.

If I were to make the game from scratch, on my own, all inclusively, design.. art.. music.. etc, in free or already acquired game design software, and other software I already own, there money wouldn't really be going anywhere but to feed and house me.

I mean, I would certainly break it down as much as I could.. right now I just wanted to make sure that's how things work.. That it's okay to ask for investors' money to support myself in order to complete a game project.

Truth is I probably wouldn't do the music, but depending on the agreement, it could be listed in the kickstarter as 'X money for 20 music tracks' or simple as 'X money so the musician can eat'. Same thing in different words, right?


Anyway, thanks guys.

 

[AaronB]

I'm backing Space Pioneer - a space exploration game made by a team including real astronauts. It will include RTS and ship-building elements, and is targeting PC, Mac and Wii U, with stretch goals for current and last-gen consoles. This one needs some love, but it still has 14 days to go https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1672987132/space-pioneer

 

[Heart of Black]

I have given my axe to StarCrawlers.



A lot of Kickstarters - and these are mainly the ones I don't pledge to - don't have a breakdown of the budget. If I see a breakdown, I know they have at least an inch of financial responsibility.

Yeah.. I added one to my page because a couple of people asked. And I had it written down already, but budgets do fluctuate, as development goes on. Like I initially paid for business trips before paying my programmer and myself, but decided I'd rather just pay for it myself.

I also tacked on a few trips last year to PAX and what not that weren't budgeted but did get us some press as well as strengthen dev relations.

Right now I was looking and thinking, man, that's not a whole lot to get through til next year, counting up everything.

 

[More_Badass]

Nice too see someone carry on my legacy! Honestly I was almost tempted to start a 2014 thread, but I can't find the time to really maintain one. Also good idea on doubling the OP to 6 posts, I ran out of character space about a month before 2013 ended in the previous thread. It may look over excessive, but those posts are going to balloon in size.

and good job on the submission template too, this is something I hope people will follow, as it will make More_Badass's life a lot easier when he updates the OP's.

And if you need a better header image, I could whip up a new one.

Thanks. Happy to continue that legacy. I got into Kickstarter last year, just in time for Hyper Light Drifter, and it's been great. It's an awesome feeling to help a project cross the line and become a reality. I've seen many promising campaigns go down in flames, so hopefully with this thread, we can spread the word and awareness of projects that deserve the support and attention

And I'll take you up on that offer for a header. I'm not that good with Photoshop

 

[heidern]

If I were to make the game from scratch, on my own, all inclusively, design.. art.. music.. etc, in free or already acquired game design software, and other software I already own, there money wouldn't really be going anywhere but to feed and house me.

I mean, I would certainly break it down as much as I could.. right now I just wanted to make sure that's how things work.. That it's okay to ask for investors' money to support myself in order to complete a game project.

I'd recommend you allocate the budget to the work itself. How that work is done is in a sense none of the backers business. So you could do something like:
$2500 Programming
$2500 Art
$2500 Music
$2500 Design

Then complete the game. If you do all the work yourself keep the money for yourself. If you get other people to do work pay them accordingly.

I'd recommend you plan out how the money will be spent and then have a contingency fund. So you could plan 8 levels for $8000. Then you have $2000 contingency to complete the game if things don't go according to plan. If they do go according to plan you can use that $2000 to add another two levels or some other way to give value. Or just keep it since in completing the game you did fulfill your end of the bargain.

 

[Messofanego]

Nice too see someone carry on my legacy! Honestly I was almost tempted to start a 2014 thread, but I can't find the time to really maintain one. Also good idea on doubling the OP to 6 posts, I ran out of character space about a month before 2013 ended in the previous thread. It may look over excessive, but those posts are going to balloon in size.

and good job on the submission template too, this is something I hope people will follow, as it will make More_Badass's life a lot easier when he updates the OP's.

And if you need a better header image, I could whip up a new one.

Thanks. Happy to continue that legacy. I got into Kickstarter last year, just in time for Hyper Light Drifter, and it's been great. It's an awesome feeling to help a project cross the line and become a reality. I've seen many promising campaigns go down in flames, so hopefully with this thread, we can spread the word and awareness of projects that deserve the support and attention

And I'll take you up on that offer for a header. I'm not that good with Photoshop

I appreciate the work you guys have done and are doing

 

[More_Badass]

Thanks for the new header, MrCunningham! Looks great.

Added Space Pioneer.
Please try to use the template, it'll just make maintaining the OP that much easier for me

 

[jimboton]

Wait, did it launch?

Also I added a template for project posts.

Nope, that's from the game page. I'll likely back it once it does though. Great thread by the way!

 

[More_Badass]

Nope, that's from the game page. I'll likely back it once it does though. Great thread by the way!

Thanks

The developer has referenced Dark Souls as inspiration

The cut-and-thrust of Souls combat also stuck with Connor Ullmann, who has worked to bring it into 2D with Oblitus, a dark sidescroller about exploring “an unfamiliar realm full of huge, ancient terrors.” Ullmann says the art takes a few cues from “areas like Blighttown and the Royal Wood,” and the desperate, rolling combat is unmistakably informed by the mobility and tension of Dark Souls. “It's much harder to include the same depth of choices in movement and attacks that Dark Souls maintained when you take a dimension out,”

From an excellent in-depth article How Do You Make An RPG After Dark Souls? (Part 1, Part 2)
Our own Matt White (Ghost Song) also talks about his game and how it was influenced by Dark Souls

I don't really understand why people get turned off when a developer say a game is inspired by Dark Souls. I'd think that would make then even more intrigued. When I read a game is influenced by Dark Souls, I don't think "Oh, it's going to be a Gothic fantasy action RPG." I think that the game in question will be challenging, will have a focus on exploration and atmosphere, will have combat and gameplay where caution and playing defensively is important. We should be applauding and encouraging games like that, not dismissing them because the dev namedrops an title that was a major influence

 

[Lime]

Shrug Island seems like a visually appealing game with nice hand-drawn art and animation.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iggynore/shrug-island

 

[More_Badass]

Shrug Island seems like a visually appealing game with nice hand-drawn art and animation.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iggynore/shrug-island

Please check the OP to see if a campaign is already added there and it would be a great help if the template was used.

The game looks great. I love the drawn/sketched art style.

 

[jimboton]

Thanks

The developer has referenced Dark Souls as inspiration


From an excellent in-depth article How Do You Make An RPG After Dark Souls? (Part 1, Part 2)
Our own Matt White (Ghost Song) also talks about his game and how it was influenced by Dark Souls

I don't really understand why people get turned off when a developer say a game is inspired by Dark Souls. I'd think that would make then even more intrigued. When I read a game is influenced by Dark Souls, I don't think "Oh, it's going to be a Gothic fantasy action RPG." I think that the game in question will be challenging, will have a focus on exploration and atmosphere, will have combat and gameplay where caution and playing defensively is important. We should be applauding and encouraging games like that, not dismissing them because the dev namedrops an title that was a major influence

I don't get turned off at all when I read a game is influenced by Dark Souls, but I get wary because in some cases it's being said for shallow or unclear reasons. Also, it's cool when a dev can pitch his game by describing what it's going to be without resorting straight away to "Dark Souls", "metroidvania" or "rogue-like" (even if I love those three things), it gives me confidence.

But yeah, I don't think we can ever have enough games that are challenging and focus on exploration and atmosphere.

 

[Polioliolio]

I'd recommend you allocate the budget to the work itself. How that work is done is in a sense none of the backers business. So you could do something like:
$2500 Programming
$2500 Art
$2500 Music
$2500 Design

Then complete the game. If you do all the work yourself keep the money for yourself. If you get other people to do work pay them accordingly.

I'd recommend you plan out how the money will be spent and then have a contingency fund. So you could plan 8 levels for $8000. Then you have $2000 contingency to complete the game if things don't go according to plan. If they do go according to plan you can use that $2000 to add another two levels or some other way to give value. Or just keep it since in completing the game you did fulfill your end of the bargain.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Heart of Black]

Hey I posted an update with a 30 minute long gameplay video of Treachery In Beatdown City(with links to timecode for specific events in the description on youtube)

All in an effort to explain many things people were asking about.

 

[More_Badass]

What do you guys think about board games? Do they belong in the OP as well?

 

[Var]

I am cool with that. There is a Board-game OT thread as well though, so there might be some crossover.

 

[More_Badass]

I am cool with that. There is a Board-game OT thread as well though, so there might be some crossover.

Cool

I added Inceptor to the list
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/455211959/inceptor-the-game-of-your-dreams
It's an Inception-inspired board game, where each player essentially a team trying to plant their idea first. Seemed like something GAFfers would like

And since it was the first question that popped into my head

Warner Brothers was contacted to make sure that we weren't violating any of their copyrights. Although the game is not licensed by Warner Brothers, their response to us indicated that they had no objections to us creating the game.

 

[famousmortimer]

My project to turn doddscientifics into a staffed, actual website, is on indiegogo.

The idea is simple and based a lot off of how Tyler Malka described NeoGAF in the gametrailer's documentary. We will operate without fear of being blacklisted. If we are blacklisted, we will discuss who blacklisted us and why. I don't want it to just be a site reporting on how crooked gaming journalism is, but whenever it tries to get crooked on us I plan to make it public.

Other influences include how Rock, Paper, Shotgun cover the pc gaming space and how PastaPadre covers sports games. Also, Fugazi is the baseline for everything that is right in turning creativity into a business.

We also have some interesting ideas on delivering news, reviews, videos, and other things.

If you give a hoot: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dodd-scientifics/x/6501995


My twitter.

The site twitter.

 

[RichyDevil]

My project to turn doddscientifics into a staffed, actual website, is on indiegogo.

The idea is simple and based a lot off of how Tyler Malka described NeoGAF in the gametrailer's documentary. We will operate without fear of being blacklisted. If we are blacklisted, we will discuss who blacklisted us and why. I don't want it to just be a site reporting on how crooked gaming journalism is, but whenever it tries to get crooked on us I plan to make it public.

Other influences include how Rock, Paper, Shotgun cover the pc gaming space and how PastaPadre covers sports games. Also, Fugazi is the baseline for everything that is right in turning creativity into a business.

We also have some interesting ideas on delivering news, reviews, videos, and other things.

If you give a hoot: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dodd-scientifics/x/6501995


My twitter.

The site twitter.

I am looking forward to this. Donation confirmed.

 

[More_Badass]

My project to turn doddscientifics into a staffed, actual website, is on indiegogo.

The idea is simple and based a lot off of how Tyler Malka described NeoGAF in the gametrailer's documentary. We will operate without fear of being blacklisted. If we are blacklisted, we will discuss who blacklisted us and why. I don't want it to just be a site reporting on how crooked gaming journalism is, but whenever it tries to get crooked on us I plan to make it public.

Other influences include how Rock, Paper, Shotgun cover the pc gaming space and how PastaPadre covers sports games. Also, Fugazi is the baseline for everything that is right in turning creativity into a business.

We also have some interesting ideas on delivering news, reviews, videos, and other things.

If you give a hoot: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dodd-scientifics/x/6501995


My twitter.

The site twitter.

This will probably come across as naive, but what separates this mission statement of yours from essentially an independent blog? I mean, for example, I'm the author of an indie game blog. I write about what I want to write, I don't worry about this idea of "blacklisting", I don't use scores or rankings, I don't write about press releases because that's not news at all, etc. Is it that this is only an issue for sites dealing with AAA games and big publishers?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

What do you guys think about board games? Do they belong in the OP as well?

I would say so.

 

[MrCunningham]

What do you guys think about board games? Do they belong in the OP as well?

I generally declined them, unless they were heavily video game related. I really think they should be their own separate thread in OP. But if you do include them, I think you should separate them into their own section to reduce clutter and cause less confusion. Or at least tag them using the [ highlight ] tags.

But the popularity of boardgames on Kickstarter is pretty staggering. This year they seem to be out weighing the video game projects. I'm a bit surprised that Jeri Ellsworth's CastAR doesn't get more attention, despite it bridging the gap between board games and video games. Though the project did get over 1 million dollars.

 

[More_Badass]

I generally declined them, unless they were heavily video game related. I really think they should be their own separate thread in OP. But if you do include them, I think you should separate them into their own section to reduce clutter and cause less confusion. Or at least tag them using the [ highlight ] tags.

But the popularity of boardgames on Kickstarter is pretty staggering. This year they seem to be out weighing the video game projects. I'm a bit surprised that Jeri Ellsworth's CastAR doesn't get more attention, despite it bridging the gap between board games and video games. Though the project did get over 1 million dollars.

Well that Inceptor game got funded in four days...with 42 days to go
I don't even know campaigns could be that long. Why are most video game campaigns only like 30+ days?

 

[Heart of Black]

Well that Inceptor game got funded in four days...with 42 days to go
I don't even know campaigns could be that long. Why are most video game campaigns only like 30+ days?

Kickstarter recommends that length for sense of urgency.. I guess. And I get it. A friend of mine did one for 60 days and it took quite a while to hit his goal.

Though I suppose a longer campaign could help you build a community during it.

A lot of times the most comes at the beginning and the end with a huge lull in the middle.

 

[Thores]

New game that's piqued my interest a lot!

Koe - $9,037 of $35,000 goal, ends 3/30

Koe is an introduction to the Japanese language in a game reminiscent of traditional JRPGs like Final Fantasy and Pokemon.

Basically it's a JRPG that teaches you Japanese. You receive Japanese words as items (that show you the kanji and hirigana forms of the word, as well as how the word would look in English), which you then use in turn-based battles and other scenarios. The game admittedly looks like butt right now, but the project lead has said that most of the funding will be going towards making the game look less like butt. I'm gonna back it after I pay my bills for the month, I hope it does well.

 

[More_Badass]

^^
Added
---
Launching today at 10am PST/1pm EST, The Orion Project
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc77rf_HlSE

The Orion Project is a massive, open world, action adventure game set in a constantly growing and unfolding interactive Space Opera. Conquer the Galaxy with this incredible experience from Spiral Game Studios and YOU!

Now I must admit, I've heard bad things about Orion Dino Horde, but I got it in the recent sale and I think the developers should be commended for sticking with their game and adding tons of content and improvements over two years. So their support of that game makes me excited and intrigued by this new project

 

[More_Badass]

Starcrawlers is funded with 13 days left

 

[Zodzilla]

I'm backing Space Pioneer - a space exploration game made by a team including real astronauts. It will include RTS and ship-building elements, and is targeting PC, Mac and Wii U, with stretch goals for current and last-gen consoles. This one needs some love, but it still has 14 days to go https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1672987132/space-pioneer

I still think, quite frankly, that this is a scam. I've been having a back and forth with one of the cosmonauts via an AMA on reddit about their budget and lack of game production credibility. From what I can tell, they've been tiptoe-ing around having to show any of their game making abilities as much as possible.

Every trailer they've put up has contained other people's footage (even their main trailer is nothing but a sizzle reel). Whenever I ask them for clarification of their abilities beyond pretty picture art, they just kind of go "we have cosmonauts, they've made sims before" and shrug. I'm not personally sure what the correlation between cosmonauts and programmers is, really.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but the whole thing, in my opinion, reeks of a Truth and Trolls type money grab.

Here's a link to my reddit comment thread I've had during the AMA as well as a post I've had in the past here about it on GAF.

 

[More_Badass]

I still think, quite frankly, that this is a scam. I've been having a back and forth with one of the cosmonauts via an AMA on reddit about their budget and lack of game production credibility. From what I can tell, they've been tiptoe-ing around having to show any of their game making abilities as much as possible.

Every trailer they've put up has contained other people's footage (even their main trailer is nothing but a sizzle reel). Whenever I ask them for clarification of their abilities beyond pretty picture art, they just kind of go "we have cosmonauts, they've made sims before" and shrug. I'm not personally sure what the correlation between cosmonauts and programmers is, really.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but the whole thing, in my opinion, reeks of a Truth and Trolls type money grab.

Here's a link to my reddit comment thread I've had during the AMA as well as a post I've had in the past here about it on GAF.

Well that is worrying, to say the least. I hadn't really checked out the game besides looking over the KS page. Looking at the updates, the lack of anything game-related seems like a major red flag. I guess it's good then, that the project is very unlikely to reach its goal

And their pitch is nothing but talking, space footage, and concept art. I never back projects that don't have any actual footage or developed content to show

 

[ElectricThunder]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jmab/subterranea-a-3d-fantasy-role-playing-game Subterranea

D&D OGL 3D RPG goodness that one would hope to ease the pain we all had when Chaos Chronicles went up in smoke via the game actually making it out in triumph---really hoping this can pull through with the low initial goal of $12.5k AUD and being super-promising seeming alongside the likes of Zaharia.

 

[Parakeetman]

Man that StarCrawlers needs to go higher since looks like something awesome with the Wizardry in a Sci-fi setting am getting from the video!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/125859261/starcrawlers

 

[VisceralBowl]

I still think, quite frankly, that this is a scam. I've been having a back and forth with one of the cosmonauts via an AMA on reddit about their budget and lack of game production credibility. From what I can tell, they've been tiptoe-ing around having to show any of their game making abilities as much as possible.

Every trailer they've put up has contained other people's footage (even their main trailer is nothing but a sizzle reel). Whenever I ask them for clarification of their abilities beyond pretty picture art, they just kind of go "we have cosmonauts, they've made sims before" and shrug. I'm not personally sure what the correlation between cosmonauts and programmers is, really.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but the whole thing, in my opinion, reeks of a Truth and Trolls type money grab.

Here's a link to my reddit comment thread I've had during the AMA as well as a post I've had in the past here about it on GAF.

The artwork doesn't even seem to be theirs. I have seen a few of them before on places like DeviantArt.

Here is one of them
They must have this guy on their team, or this is all just from this guy

 

[Steel]

M.A.V deserves a lot better than what it's getting. It's not a risky place to put your money either, because the game was in playable alpha before the kickstarter and will be in playable beta after it. Shame.

 

[More_Badass]

So quite a few campaigns didn't launch by their predicted February dates, so March looks like it's going to be packed with promising games to support

 

[More_Badass]

Path of Shadows campaign is getting delayed slightly

We'll possibly delay the KS to polish everything. Also, we are moving to a new office this week so.. too much stuff.

 

[More_Badass]

Updated the OP and added Subterranea.

Man, I check discovering cool projects I missed last year. Such as Unrest
Site | Trailer

Play as ordinary people struggling for food, safety, freedom, and a chance at peace.
Explore an ancient Indian city and use conversation, violence or both to achieve your goals.
Unrest is an RPG/Adventure game that adapts to death, failure, and the choices you make.

It's set to release around May 2014, so that's another successful KS that will be releasing

The Rain World devs continue to be pretty reliable. Of the five successful campaigns I've backed, they're the only one that I've actually received a survey for. And HLD, Catacomb Kids, and Confederate Express all were funded last year. I must say, the developer of Catacomb Kids is also reliable. He promised the early alpha by December and he delivered on time.

 

[More_Badass]

Spectre campaign is live
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1260566890/spectre-virtual-reality-horror

 

[More_Badass]

Added Dark Drive, Gunscape, Spectre

Dark Drive looks really promising...but it's on Indiegogo, so unfortunately it probably won't get the exposure it deserves
---

Regarding another Indiegogo project, the campaign for Gaffer-made Proxy Blade failed last year, but you'll still be able to play the game when it releases as Proxy Blade Zero on Xbox 360 (I believe as soon as this week). Now that was a promising project that deserved so much more support

 

[More_Badass]

Habitat's Kickstarter is launching April 2nd
I'm anticipating this one. The concept sounds cool, the trailer looks great (first person looks so intense), and I think RockPaperShotgun described the game best as "Gravity: The Strategy Game"

Learn more about the game here

 

[More_Badass]

Ashen Rift will launch on KS withing the next 8 hours
http://ashenrift.com/

Ashen Rift is a first person survival horror game for PC, Mac and Linux which places you and your canine companion Bounder in a world barely recognizable as earth, which has been twisted and drained of almost all life, Together you seek to stop the remaining life from hemorrhaging earth by disabling the “Rift” rumoured to be the cause.

You must find your own path and discover your own methods and get to the Rift alive.

 

[HadesGigas]

Pro Wrestling X is back on Kickstarter



https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1526396930/pro-wrestling-x-bringing-back-classic-wrestling-ga-0

 

[Syphon Filter]

Pro Wrestling X is back on Kickstarter



https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1526396930/pro-wrestling-x-bringing-back-classic-wrestling-ga-0

Looks nice.

 

[TheBear]

PWX has been around for decades. Good to see they've smartened up their graphics engine and have a much more realistic goal this time around. Happy to pledge to support them after all these years.

 

[More_Badass]

Added

Ashen Rift
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1763303301/ashen-rift-a-man-and-his-dog

Pro Wrestling X
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1526396930/pro-wrestling-x-bringing-back-classic-wrestling-ga-0

Red Goddess
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/yanimstudio/red-goddess

 

[hohoXD123]

The UnEarth Initiative - A Quirky Space Colonization Sim
$200,000 goal

Kickstarter by some former Insomniac devs, thread is here:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=103140068&highlight=#post103140068

 

[More_Badass]

^^
Will add soon

And the Path of Shadows KS has been delayed

Ey guys, Path of Shadows dev here.

We are going to delay the Kickstarter campaign until further notice. This is mostly because of personal reasons we can't do nothing about (think about Phil Fish in IG:TM). We are possibly changing the name of the game too.

We hope that we can launch the campaign in the few next months and also show some new content!

Cheers and sorry.