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Killzone 2 Demo up on EU PSN Store now

Future

Member
Aug 5, 2004
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Shearie said:
Change is scary. If you ever need a hug man, let me know.

Haha, change for the better is one thing. Change for the sake of change is another. There is a reason that 90% of other FPS games control like they do. But this demo is too short for me to really knoe whether it will be a problem. We'll see when the game finally drops.

The encounters will make or break this game. Weighty more realistic controls demands weighty realistic AI scenarios. If scenarios pop up forcing me to shoot dudes in the head with pinpoint accuracy and deal with CoD style quick spawners from all directions, there will be a problem. I doubt that there is though, since all reviews have been pretty positive
 

dejay

Banned
Mar 27, 2007
10,641
0
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Sydney
Before the demo: Interested but not hyped or anything. If anything I was expecting little.

After the demo: Can't wait. The cover system works well, the controls take a little getting used to but they're good and the "sluggish" movement works to make the game more tactical, but in a frantic way. I love the AI and how I had to retreat sometimes as they were working to flank me.
 

Shearie

Member
Nov 23, 2007
2,224
0
0
Future said:
Haha, change for the better is one thing. Change for the sake of change is another.

What about change for the sake of something unique? Fuck for better or worse.
 
Jun 5, 2006
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Future said:
Haha, change for the better is one thing. Change for the sake of change is another. There is a reason that 90% of other FPS games control like they do. But this demo is too short for me to really knoe whether it will be a problem. We'll see when the game finally drops.

The encounters will make or break this game. Weighty more realistic controls demands weighty realistic AI scenarios. If scenarios pop up forcing me to shoot dudes in the head with pinpoint accuracy and deal with CoD style quick spawners from all directions, there will be a problem. I doubt that there is though, since all reviews have been pretty positive

but here's the thing. 90% of shooters don't handle the same.

CoD4 handles very differently from Resistance 2 which handles very differently from Halo 3.

Each game is going to have its own set of quirks that you're going to have to adjust to; when to go into iron sights, when to shoot from the hip, which weapons work better in certain situations, how heavy the controls are, etc.

Many reviews had the same issues with the controls at first initially, but they adjusted and ended up loving it. Just look at David Ellis for example.

Heck, I don't even have much issue shooting dudes in the head with pinpoint accuracy. But I'm used to the controls and how it handles. Frankly, the pinpoint accuracy IS what I love about the controls, especially with the iron sights. Hardly any game gives me the satisfaction of aiming with such precision like I receive with KZ2.
 

jax (old)

Banned
May 12, 2005
8,469
1
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Loved the demo. Got goosebumps at the visuals and visceralness of the demo. Glad they made this public. SOLD SOLD SOLD.

I think the game looks absolutely incredible. Goosebumps. Can't beat that.
 

Future

Member
Aug 5, 2004
9,452
151
1,305
Private Hoffman said:
but here's the thing. 90% of shooters don't handle the same.

CoD4 handles very differently from Resistance 2 which handles very differently from Halo 3.

Each game is going to have its own set of quirks that you're going to have to adjust to; when to go into iron sights, when to shoot from the hip, which weapons work better in certain situations, how heavy the controls are, etc.

Many reviews had the same issues with the controls at first initially, but they adjusted and ended up loving it. Just look at David Ellis for example.

Heck, I don't even have much issue shooting dudes in the head with pinpoint accuracy. But I'm used to the controls and how it handles. Frankly, the pinpoint accuracy IS what I love about the controls, especially with the iron sights. Hardly any game gives me the satisfaction of aiming with such precision like I receive with KZ2.

I guess my point is that even though the Halos and Resistances and CoDs all control at different speeds and have different feels, none have the issues that Killzone 2 seems to have: Weighty reticule that gives the illusion of lag. The reticule doesnt move instantly when you move the stick, nor does it stop instantly when you center it...making people feel like its sluggish or unresponsive. This is compounded by the lack of aim assist, that virtually all console shooters have including the few you mentioned.

Plenty of FPS games have been released over the years, but I havent heard such a love/hate response to the control setup to any of them...because they all share basic traits that make them all feel good in there own way. Sure some prefer the iron sights in CoD to the Halo click zoom, but they all work in their own way. Killzone breaks many of the established rules, but like I said, I think its too early to judge yet. Gotta see how the overall game is designed around this control setup. It may prove to be another great way to design FPS controls. The words "lag" and "sluggish", however, should be words that no dev ever wants to hear no matter what they were trying to accomplish

Edit:

Shearie said:
What about change for the sake of something unique? Fuck for better or worse.

This is a bullshit reason for change. Tomb Raider 1 tile based gameplay was unique. But it was also ass, so much so that no other game tries to use it as a standard, including the most recent tomb raiders.

I agree with TTP post below. Its definitely more sim like, and it will probably be fine since the game will be designed around that. I'm only worried about multiplayer
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
Jun 10, 2004
24,539
3
1,560
Italy
www.iwagglevr.com
Private Hoffman said:
but here's the thing. 90% of shooters don't handle the same.

CoD4 handles very differently from Resistance 2 which handles very differently from Halo 3.

Each game is going to have its own set of quirks that you're going to have to adjust to; when to go into iron sights, when to shoot from the hip, which weapons work better in certain situations, how heavy the controls are, etc.

Many reviews had the same issues with the controls at first initially, but they adjusted and ended up loving it. Just look at David Ellis for example.

Heck, I don't even have much issue shooting dudes in the head with pinpoint accuracy. But I'm used to the controls and how it handles. Frankly, the pinpoint accuracy IS what I love about the controls, especially with the iron sights. Hardly any game gives me the satisfaction of aiming with such precision like I receive with KZ2.

As I said in the other thread, Killzone 2 is the first FPS that gives you the impression of actually aiming a gun rather than moving a pointer on the screen. And I'll go as far as saying it's the first FPS that truly takes advantage of the controller set up over the kb/mouse combo. You just can't recreate this feeling with a mouse. Also, it gives every weapon a different personality as they all behave differently aside from the usual accuracy/fire rate/stopping power stats. They do feel different by just holding them. Control-wise, it's the Gran Turismo of the FPS genre. You need to learn to aim as much as you had to learn to drive in GT. Which makes taking a turn/dealing a hit oh so much more satisfying.
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
Jul 9, 2007
10,643
32
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London
I dare y'all play again, wow the control felt so natural. Hope it will implement all of future FPS games.
 

eXistor

Member
Feb 22, 2006
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I had my doubts about the controls too at first, but I just played the demo again and it felt much more natural now. Just take some time gettign used to it and you'll appreciate it.
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
Jun 10, 2004
24,539
3
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Italy
www.iwagglevr.com
iceatcs said:
I dare y'all play again, wow the control felt so natural. Hope it will implement all of future FPS games.

Pretty sure most of the complainers already got past the "laggy" phase and are actually enjoying the game now (as focus testers, QA testers, beta testers and reviewers did). Thing is they are not going to edit their posts to acknowledge this so looking at threads around the internet you get the wrong impression of the current general sentiment on the matter.
 

Sykra

Member
Aug 20, 2007
634
1
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Great game, once you get used to the controls ( not that long ), it feels great. Like an evolution in fps control.
 

Trailblazer

Banned
Feb 19, 2007
419
0
0
What the fuck!
The demo s only 10 minutes long but i can't stop playing it over and over again.
I've been through the demo about 15 times and each time the enemy AI has given me an different experience each time. Dare is say it's AI is better then Uncharted.

Fuck this demo is good. I can't wait for the game.

Also HUD and Crosshairs are for Pussies. :D
 

MvmntInGrn

Member
Aug 16, 2008
5,796
4
760
Hmm I think I am going to move here from the other thread, so much more positive. :D

All we need is a funny subtitle.

EDIT: I'm 90% sure I am going to do my first run with no crosshair and no HUD, it just feels too good to pass up. Will use them online most likely but in SP it adds SO much to the already stellar atmosphere.
 

Shearie

Member
Nov 23, 2007
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0
Hmm I think I am going to move here from the other thread, so much more positive.

All we need is a funny subtitle.

The Killzone 2 thread of "Why is there lag in my single-player?"

The Killzone 2 thread of "The word Happles is stupid as fuck!"

The second one is more stark reality than comedy, but it can work as such.
 

VaLiancY

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Oct 7, 2007
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0
First, I was like meh about the controls. Played it again and it was second nature, it was easy as blinking. Controls are great, graphics have been spoken about to hell and the A.I was pretty good, they would flank, take cover and use grenades and not spam it every fucking second like CoD.
 

jax (old)

Banned
May 12, 2005
8,469
1
0
what control issues? I just finished the demo again and was again, impressed. I could do headshots easily and I love the grenade cooking.
 

Haunted

Member
Nov 16, 2006
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Loudninja said:
:lol damn man you said that so many times :p
Guess what? I've got a fever, and the only prescription is.... more crouch toggle.


ok I'll stop. for now
 

Zen

Banned
Jun 24, 2005
13,050
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Humerously enough I managed to prove myself wrong (about how the AI refuses to advance in the 'cover me' sequence), and I think I've really nailed the my prefered sensitivity settings now.

If you just stay very close to Garza, they won't throw grenades at you (strange, but this is normal and the beginning of the game) for about 40 seconds, a Helghast will appear by the door and start shooting at you, hell have a buddy on the lower level at the table corner, not quite able to provuide cover for him. If you go into the office area and kill the first Helghast, the other Helghast will file in 1 by 1 after that, sort of strange.

The AI did surprise and kill me once during the sequence, I think the AI can climb up a level as well as jump down, because After I'd killed one of the Office Helghast (the Helghast actually ignore Garza completely on this setting), I turned back to see Garza and ran towards him, only to have a Helghast CQC me out of nowere, maybe he was hiding around the corner and took an oportunity to chase me when my back was turned.

The AI IS actually good, very good in fact, I just don't think they were tweaked well for this sequence (or maybe it's just a difficulty setting thing).

Also, I've actually nailed my own personal preferences for sensitivity, and they're lower than default, believe it or not, about 25% for each. Personally I like it a lot better this way, because the weapons have weight, still, and I'm not actually contantly over ajusting my shots.

The problem with Killzone 2 is that it takes some serious getting use to, so for people who are like 'pass' keep trying it. Honestly, I think the final product will probably be great.

Oh yeah, I hung back from the APC firefight and much to my satisfaction, the Helghast actually managed to kill all ISA forces, and down all of my team mates. They then assumed a defensive position around were I was hiding after I made myself known to them. THey didn't do much beyond that, but I actually had two grenades thrown at me during the proceedings.

If the AI really is 'smarter' on the higher difficulty settings, than I might be in bliss on a higher setting or two. It's very important to me that the AI feel real and adaptive to your actions (it's basically the one thing that kept me playing Halo 3 imho). After experimenting more (this is about my 8th playthrough) the Helghast AI is there for doing things like advancing on tenemy positions, I would just like it if they were a tad more agressive in pushing you back.
 
Jan 4, 2006
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TTP said:
Pretty sure most of the complainers already got past the "laggy" phase and are actually enjoying the game now (as focus testers, QA testers, beta testers and reviewers did). Thing is they are not going to edit their posts to acknowledge this so looking at threads around the internet you get the wrong impression of the current general sentiment on the matter.

You could also say that you aren't going to see a lot of people being negative after investing over two years of hype in one game. They are just sucking it up and taking it.

I was looking forward to the game and was quite disappointed seeing that a core gameplay element didn't click with me. It isn't input lag of slow movement or something, just the wonky aiming sensitivity. And you know something is wrong when an unusual amount of people are having trouble with it. I haven't read any complaints in topics about comparable games like Rainbow Six Vegas, a game that is played the same as Killzone 2. It's not that i won't adapt. It's just that this initial barrier is completely unnecessary when looking at comparable games.

Zen said:
Also, I've actually nailed my own personal preferences for sensitivity, and they're lower than default, believe it or not, about 25% for each. Personally I like it a lot better this way, because the weapons have weight, still, and I'm not actually contantly over ajusting my shots.

Lowering the sensitivity lowers the acceleration in aiming. It felt better for me too. The huge downside of this is that you are turning like Christoper Reeves in a wheelchair. It's to slow and gives the impression of having blinders on.
 

kaizoku

I'm not as deluded as I make myself out to be
Nov 18, 2005
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0
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Manchester UK
I've been out of town so haven't played the demo yet, but reading the impressions I'm kinda stunned by the negativity - and the reasons for it!

We've already heard about how easy the opening level is. Reviews and so on mention how its largely a tutorial and its abit absurd how the helghast are actually a little pedestrian at the start. But I'm pretty sure things will ramp up, otherwise the reviews wouldn't have scored it so highly.

I'm gonna go into the demo knowing that, will see how I feel after it. For the record, I wasn't a day one purchase per se, but I was hoping this game could replace my gears of war 2 as my go to shooter game. cod just isn't for me over the long term and gears is just broken.
 

nib95

Banned
Feb 26, 2007
34,612
2
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TTP said:
As I said in the other thread, Killzone 2 is the first FPS that gives you the impression of actually aiming a gun rather than moving a pointer on the screen. And I'll go as far as saying it's the first FPS that truly takes advantage of the controller set up over the kb/mouse combo. You just can't recreate this feeling with a mouse. Also, it gives every weapon a different personality as they all behave differently aside from the usual accuracy/fire rate/stopping power stats. They do feel different by just holding them. Control-wise, it's the Gran Turismo of the FPS genre. You need to learn to aim as much as you had to learn to drive in GT. Which makes taking a turn/dealing a hit oh so much more satisfying.


Great post TTP. Totally agree with everything you said.
 

dejan

Member
Nov 13, 2006
2,565
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890
AlexM said:
I'm traditionally a PC gamer who struggles with console controls, but for some reason, even when really drunk I found the controls natural. I wonder if they had purposefully tried to make the controls easier for someone with a PC FPS background..
Yeah ... right.
 

Rolf NB

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Apr 22, 2007
12,914
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Shearie said:
The Killzone 2 thread of "Why is there lag in my single-player?"

The Killzone 2 thread of "The word Happles is stupid as fuck!"

The second one is more stark reality than comedy, but it can work as such.
We need some revising of the happle history anyway. Whenever I see one, I think of Dr Zoidberg.
 
Mar 4, 2006
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Silverthorn said:
What's wrong with having a contrary opinion?

Opinions are just that, being told they are wrong is pathetic.

Excusing people's individual problems with aiming by comparing it to Gran Turismo-esque "realism" is just laughable.
 

Zeliard

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Apr 23, 2008
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VaLiancY said:
First, I was like meh about the controls. Played it again and it was second nature, it was easy as blinking. Controls are great, graphics have been spoken about to hell and the A.I was pretty good, they would flank, take cover and use grenades and not spam it every fucking second like CoD.

The best part about the A.I.'s use of grenades is that it's fairly realistic - not only do they not spam it every second, but they're also not ridiculously accurate with them (at least not on the demo difficulty). Yeah, the grenades usually land somewhere near you, as they should, but they don't land right at your feet every single time like in most other games. It's refreshing.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
Feb 21, 2006
21,538
1
0
Tortondo, Canada
VaLiancY said:
First, I was like meh about the controls. Played it again and it was second nature, it was easy as blinking. Controls are great, graphics have been spoken about to hell and the A.I was pretty good, they would flank, take cover and use grenades and not spam it every fucking second like CoD.

The AI flanked more than I thought they would in the warehouse, I was actually surprised.
 

Lince

Banned
Dec 7, 2005
4,813
0
0
35
Granada, Andalusia / SPAIN
Francias Castiglione said:
Opinions are just that, being told they are wrong is pathetic.

Excusing people's individual problems with aiming by comparing it to Gran Turismo-esque "realism" is just laughable.

aiming problems? that's the laughable part, that's one of the aspect of the game that has been polished to hell, better try "adaptation problems" that some guys are having after playing too much arcade shooters alas COD4 or L4D... Killzone 2 must really be such an amazing game, the trolls are in full force like Halo or Gears would stop working or something when KZ2 comes out.
 

tfur

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Oct 21, 2007
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I firmly believe that the large majority of people having "control problems", are from those who are not used to games with no/minimal auto aim.

It takes a little bit, but I adapted to the controls fairly easily...
 

kaizoku

I'm not as deluded as I make myself out to be
Nov 18, 2005
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Manchester UK
Finally played the demo using alternate 2 controls, don't understand all the complaints, I killed everyone with ease, moving didn't feel slow or laboured or anything, and it didn't feel stupid zaney fast like a lot of FPS games. Admittedly I wasn't particularly going for headshots and expert kills like I might in a game like Gears or MGS4, and I might have struggled more if I was, but it was my first 15 minutes after all.

Couple of weird bits with the controls - cover system is odd. All the games I've played and enjoyed involve sticking to cover and holding a button to look and/or aim. This one felt like I had to hold seperate buttons to cover, peek, zoom/aim AND fire. That was a bit odd. Especially when I kept letting go of L2 to press L1 to aim, making myself vulnerable. Another weirdness is not really knowing where I've been attacked from, I often didn't know which direction my team mates had gone to, if it was safe to advance or not yet and sometimes I'd be fired on and not have any idea where the bad guy was. Only reason I got through unscathed was because it's set to easy.

Nothing major to complain about though and nothing I don't think I won't get over in one way or another. Really enjoyed the graphics and visceral gameplay. Convinced me the full game is worth owning anyway.
 

Zeliard

Member
Apr 23, 2008
34,712
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kaizoku said:
Couple of weird bits with the controls - cover system is odd. All the games I've played and enjoyed involve sticking to cover and holding a button to look and/or aim. This one felt like I had to hold seperate buttons to cover, peek, zoom/aim AND fire. That was a bit odd. Especially when I kept letting go of L2 to press L1 to aim, making myself vulnerable.

That's what you get for using Alt 2. :p

It's all about the default, baby. At least in SP, with its lack of crouch toggle.
 
Jan 4, 2006
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Lince said:
aiming problems? that's the laughable part, that's one of the aspect of the game that has been polished to hell, better try "adaptation problems" that some guys are having after playing too much arcade shooters alas COD4 or L4D... Killzone 2 must really be such an amazing game, the trolls are in full force like Halo or Gears would stop working or something when KZ2 comes out.

And Rainbow Six right?:lol
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Jun 8, 2004
28,318
2
0
kaizoku said:
Especially when I kept letting go of L2 to press L1 to aim, making myself vulnerable.
You would be vulnerable even if you were just peeking to shoot with L1, by pressing L2 and L1 at the same time. Just probably a bit less vulnerable. I play like you played it - release L2 and immediately press L1 when I wanted to go into ironsights from cover. You can't expect to shoot for too long from cover and not receive any damage anyways. Switching back to L2 brings you back into cover, so you can recover. Keep in mind also, a lot of time, you don't even need to go into ironsights anyways. Shooting from cover just by peeking over works really well.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
Feb 21, 2006
21,538
1
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Tortondo, Canada
Zeliard said:
That's what you get for using Alt 2. :p

It's all about the default, baby. At least in SP, with its lack of crouch toggle.

I just use Alt 2 but with zoom toggle, works fine even in MP.
 

Zeliard

Member
Apr 23, 2008
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Kittonwy said:
I just use Alt 2 but with zoom toggle, works fine even in MP.

That's probably what I'm gonna do for MP since you can crouch toggle there. I agree that Alt 2 is the best overall scheme, but it's a problem in SP since it's annoying (at least for me) having to hold down both L1 and L2 to be in cover and aiming through ironsights.
 

Decado

Member
Apr 4, 2007
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Hopefully crouch toggle will be in the full game.

Anyway, I was really impressed with the demo. Game could really use character model damage or at least real-time skin damage, though. Not as big a deal when shooting from range, but up close it kills the gritty feel of the game. I'm also not seeing any of the game's vaunted "destroyable environments" beyond the usual pre-scripted stuff. I'm happy I pre-ordered it, but it is unlikely I'll keep the game for long. One more very minor thing: get rid of the annoying black smudges at the corners of the screen. I can kind of see what they're trying to do but quite frankly, it doesn't work and it is distracting.

Those complaints aside, the game controls exceptionally well, looks great and the enemy AI is very challenging.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Jun 8, 2004
28,318
2
0
TTP said:
As I said in the other thread, Killzone 2 is the first FPS that gives you the impression of actually aiming a gun rather than moving a pointer on the screen. And I'll go as far as saying it's the first FPS that truly takes advantage of the controller set up over the kb/mouse combo. You just can't recreate this feeling with a mouse.
This is an interesting observation and probably true, this kind of control even when it's attempted with a mouse would be just completely wrong. You expect 1:1 feedback with a mouse movement, and there's no such thing with analog sticks.
 
Jul 21, 2004
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Liked it a lot more on a second play. Graphics are outstanding of course. There's no question it ticks all the right boxes when it comes to those. Demo was quite short and you didn't really get to see/do a lot but sets it up nicely for the full game.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
Nov 27, 2007
38,093
3
0
Ottawa, Canada
Private Hoffman said:
but here's the thing. 90% of shooters don't handle the same.

CoD4 handles very differently from Resistance 2 which handles very differently from Halo 3.

Each game is going to have its own set of quirks that you're going to have to adjust to; when to go into iron sights, when to shoot from the hip, which weapons work better in certain situations, how heavy the controls are, etc.

This is always frustrating for PC gamers such as myself. On the PC, all of the shooters handle the same.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
Nov 27, 2007
38,093
3
0
Ottawa, Canada
Danne-Danger said:
That's not true, some force smoothing and acceleration down your throat.

Most of the time, this can be avoided by forcing video driver settings through the control panel. The acceleration is usually not an issue now, since most games use direct hardware input for the mouse.

The only game I can think of where I haven't been able to fix a smoothing/acceleration issue is Deus Ex.
 

Virtua Ben

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Nov 4, 2006
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I was one of the few on GAF that was hyped for this game way back at E3 07 but recently my hype meter has kind of toned down (thanks to a new PC and GAF going crazy about this game). Anyways, I was still willing to give the demo a try...and I'm glad I did.

Overall the game is great. The controls are going to take me a while to get used to (I've played the demo a handful of times already and still don't quite have a handle on it yet), but on the other hand I love the weighty-ness of the guns. I guess you could say it's more realistic, but it's unlike any other shooter I've played before in that the guns feel so damn powerful. Needless to say, I'm not on the fence about this game anymore. Just preordered off of amazon.