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Social Business Kingthrash - Daydream. Games journalism and viral marketing

Mar 7, 2017
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king trash is just a console warring clown. he comes in to any DF tweet or thread it seems saying shit like they're biased towards xbox and whatnot. idk why he's not a banned source he comes into threads on here and does the same shit

If being a console warring clown is reason enough to be banned from NeoGaf, most of you lot wouldn't survive either.
 

Kingthrash

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Oct 6, 2019
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I was interested in the content of the video, but then read the comments by the creator in this thread. I will now pass.
Ok....I said nothing bad but ....ok I guess you may have wanted a immature reaction
 
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NahaNago

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Aug 29, 2014
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Some of this guys analysis videos are fun to watch but I can't do his long form videos. His style is just too over the top for my taste.
 

Dr Bass

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It's funny how people change their minds about journalists.... there was so much hate for journalists last gen, when they were giving Xbox exclusives terrible reviews.
People calling them biased, saying the politics behind the games was more important than the game..... and I am one of the biggest critics of TLOU2.

But now that you have two dingdongs from IGN posting almost identical gamepass PR at the same time without stating it was PR, you then have Destin Legaire on unlocked podcast and then he comes home after a full day at IGN to make more Xbox propaganda on his own channel.

Then you have Grubb at venturebeat, Tom Warren at The Verge.

Parris on KFG.... 'exclusives are bad when PS does them but exclusives are great when Xbox does them' - literally his position.

Everybody avoided addressing the scandal Thrash mentioned when Xbox got advertising through youtubers without stating it was paid for...... and no doubt they have something like that going on now, nobody talks about a service as much as these people do without a really good reason.... and that is a personal benefit to them.

In an industry where people work their 9-5 as a 'journalist' and then go home and have their own youtube where they also post..... there is no distinction. They are all paid shills.

Think about it... PlayStation is the biggest console brand, yet they get the least coverage out of the 3. There is a reason behind that.
There are going to be Xbox shills, PS shills and Nintendo shills. The internet spans the entirety of humanity across the globe. Some people trying to hide their personal preferences behind professionalism is going to happen (and that's what this video is calling out).

But your post reads like a persecution complex to me.

Oh no, Tom Warren, an MS editor for probably about a decade seems to heavily favor Xbox! Shocker.
 
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bender

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For people complaining ... I watched it, video seems pretty well stated with clear facts and reasoning.

In fact, almost everything I'm reading in this thread comes across as straw man and ad hominem. What did he state that was untruthful?

Still watching but he opens the video talking about Filip Miucin and somehow conflates Filip's plagiarism with personal bias for other platforms and not be interested in Nintendo. Before IGN, Filip gained popularity by covering Nintendo on his Youtube Channel and was then hired to cover Nintendo at IGN because of the popularity of that channel. I wasn't familiar with Flip prior to the plagiarism scandal but a quick Google search confirms my hazy memory. Filip didn't plagiarize because he had biases for other platforms, he plagiarized because he was a lazy fuckhead.
 
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Dr Bass

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Still watching but he opens the video talking about Filip Miucin and somehow conflates Filip's plagiarism with personal bias for other platforms and not be interested in Nintendo. Before IGN, Filip gained popularity by covering Nintendo on his Youtube Channel and was then hired to cover Nintendo at IGN because of the popularity of that channel. I wasn't familiar with Flip prior to the plagiarism scandal but a quick Google search confirms my hazy memory. Filip didn't plagiarize because he had biases for other platforms, he plagiarized because he was a lazy fuckhead.
Fair enough.
 

Bryank75

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Jan 12, 2018
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There are going to be Xbox shills, PS shills and Nintendo shills. The internet spans the entirety of humanity across the globe. Some people trying to hide their personal preferences behind professionalism is going to happen (and that's what this video is calling out).

But your post reads like a persecution complex to me.

Oh no, Tom Warren, an MS editor for probably about a decade seems to heavily favor Xbox! Shocker.

Maybe it does read like that to you.

What I wanted people to take away from it was that PlayStation is the biggest gaming brand in the world and somehow there is less coverage in the media for it than the other brands.

It's bizarre, an anomaly that I can't point to any other industry off the top of my head and say...... 'oh yeah, it's just like that'

It's a simple observation.
 
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strange headache

Fluctuat nec mergitur
Jan 14, 2018
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There's certainly a lot to criticize about video game journalism, but this poorly thrown together video and sorry excuse of a documentary ain't it.
Thanks for wasting 20 minutes of my life.

Here's quick resume so you don't make the same mistake:

1. A quote by Assange to sound smart
2. Some dude talking about code of conducts...
3. A random no-name game reviewer admitting to plagiarizing content
4. Shitting on Skill Up for liking Cyberpunk, a game that I enjoyed myself very much
5. Schreier saying that gaming is good

At this point I just tapped out. Absolutely none of that sh*t is indicative of the state of games journalism. It's mostly just subjective salty rambling about tangential stuff and disagreeing with opinions.
Seriously who watches that crap?
 
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bender

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Fair enough.

Finished it. I'm not sure I follow his line of thinking and I'd say his points are mostly incoherent. He's trying to put writers for sites like IGN into a "journalism" bucket (which is problematic in itself) and then show the corruption of Youtube influencers only to say that sites like IGN are being influenced by those same Youtube influencers thus showing that sites like IGN are corrupt. It's like some weird transitive mathematical equation. Maybe the following parts to this series will offer clarity, but my guy really needs to write a script instead of going off the cuff, he'll sound much less muddled and his points will come across more easily.
 

bender

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Apr 12, 2010
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3. A random no-name game reviewer admitting to plagiarizing content

Not defending the video, but Filip was a Nintendo Editor for one of the biggest game media outlets in the world and was fired from that position for plagiarizing.
 
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Jun 1, 2016
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No nerves hit at all? What I can't comment on topics about me? Lol I'm at home eating. Reading the false information and correcting them. Clearly many are lost at what I do so I'm just trying to help.

Fact of the matter is alot of yall are insecure and immature. I'm just interacting with yall because I believe all gamers should share their veiws. I haven't called any of you out of your names or showed any disrespect....even though that's what SOME of you are poorly attempting at doing. Lol I guess you not used to real people replying to you....shocking....I know
While I don't like your videos. I whole heartedly agree with you here. You can't reply without someone thinking they got to you or something.
Actually agree with your entire reply.
 
Nov 7, 2020
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It's all so tiresome. Game journalism and marketing bad: HERE'S WHY. Like, subscribe, watch ads so I get paid for my opinion about other people's jobs, etc.

And lol at the comment about how newspapers in the "old days" weren't about making certain companies money and were "more honest".

Games journalism is trash. But then again, maybe the folks who are leeching off of them are as well.

Kind of reminds me of......OUTRAGE CULTURE
 

Kingthrash

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Oct 6, 2019
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I don't know what you're trying to say here. If you want to defend the content of the video in a single post, then perhaps I'll change my mind. But the Twitter quotes make me feel that's truly unlikely.
Those people I troll on Twitter are my friends...we troll each other all the time.
Lol video has 0 to do with console was bs...way more important than that. Lol twitter quotes with 0 context posted by someone who don't know me isn't reason to judge someone....its best practice to interact with the person or make your own judgment not piggyback someone else
 
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Kingthrash

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Those people I troll on Twitter are my friends...we troll each other all the time.
Lol video has 0 to do with console was bs...way more important than that. Lol twitter quotes with 0 context posted by someone who don't know me isn't reason to judge someone....its best practice to interact with the person or make your own judgment not piggyback someone else
Also I won't defend my content as it has no reason to be defended. If you watch or not is your choice alone...im not here to sell my content...only provide it to the gamer who want to watch it.
 

Dr Bass

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Finished it. I'm not sure I follow his line of thinking and I'd say his points are mostly incoherent. He's trying to put writers for sites like IGN into a "journalism" bucket (which is problematic in itself) and then show the corruption of Youtube influencers only to say that sites like IGN are being influenced by those same Youtube influencers thus showing that sites like IGN are corrupt. It's like some weird transitive mathematical equation. Maybe the following parts to this series will offer clarity, but my guy really needs to write a script instead of going off the cuff, he'll sound much less muddled and his points will come across more easily.

Don't really agree. Seemed clear to me. We have people posing as "journalists". They don't follow what were clear "journalist" ethics codes as explained by the first video. And the rest is a bit of a deconstruction of that idea.

Following the intro, you have video evidence of some notable people in the games media industry saying things that clearly don't follow what would be considered "journalistic standards."

You have a segment where MS was basically caught paying for good coverage on a site that didn't disclose it, i.e. passing off paid shill material as "news."

Then you have the explanation that none of what you are seeing is, indeed, games journalism, but instead just typical social media nonsense (likening some of the paid material to "influencers", i.e. there is a serious crossover now of "reviewers" and "social media influencers") being masqueraded as objective news. The Cyberpunk video seemed like a clear demonstration of this at the end when the guy is like "Just go out and buy it!" That's a clear "call to action" in marketing speak, and we also know how that game turned out. How could he have been that blown away by the game?

Again all of it seemed clear and connected following from one idea to the other. 1. Here is what journalism is. 2. Here is what happens with game reviews and content. 3. Here is how this is more connected to modern ideas of influencers and paid coverage masquerading as content.

Simple.

Anyway, I don't really care about game sites and all that. Haven't paid attention to them in years, expressly because of the reasons kind of outlined in the video. Which is one reason I don't get upset about it either, it's all clearly nonsense. I still don't understand the controversy of this video. Do people think this stuff is actually legit and thoughtful?
 

DarkMage619

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Jun 19, 2004
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DirkMagusDCXIX @fanfiction.net strikes again...This time with a narrative that makes no sense in this thread.
PropelleorusMinimus missed the post complaining about Sony getting less coverage as if it is some sort of conspiracy. Here let me help you:
In an industry where people work their 9-5 as a 'journalist' and then go home and have their own youtube where they also post..... there is no distinction. They are all paid shills.

Think about it... PlayStation is the biggest console brand, yet they get the least coverage out of the 3. There is a reason behind that.
Sony doesn't do much reaching out to fans. They skipped e3. They appear to be coasting which is fine I suppose for a market leader but don't be surprised when other platform holders get more press. It isn't a conspiracy, other platforms actually have news to report.
 

bender

Candy Corn Aficionado
Apr 12, 2010
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Again all of it seemed clear and connected following from one idea to the other. 1. Here is what journalism is. 2. Here is what happens with game reviews and content. 3. Here is how this is more connected to modern ideas of influencers and paid coverage masquerading as content.

Simple.

What you wrote is simple. What he conveyed was not. He should hire you. He also never connects the dots between major sites, independent YouTube channels (influencers) and his nebulous claim that influencers are influencing traditional sites like IGN. He's relying way too much on assumptions and, as I pointed out before, was wrong right out of the gate. I'm also struggling to figure out what his thesis is.

Also blanketing out a statement of "here is journalism" and is a weird take. Covering video games and being a White House correspondent are two different things and rightfully so. Enthusiast coverage of hobbies isn't much different if you look at movies, music, TV, cars, etc. I'm not advocating for letting outlets run rough-shot or that it is without problems, but theoretically it is why I'd trust a IGN or Gamespot over a Skill-Up as those traditional sites should have more journalistic practices in place, namely separating out marketing from reviewers/editors. And even then, you have instances with Gamespot and Gerstmann where that didn't occur. Most of the people involved in video game coverage don't have a background in journalism.

I still don't understand the controversy of this video. Do people think this stuff is actually legit and thoughtful?

What stuff are you referring to? KingThrash obviously has biases towards Sony. Even in this video which is far less blatant than his normal content, he's painting the narrative that Xbox is getting a lot of great press because of corruption and Sony isn't getting a fair shake. It couldn't possibly be that Game Pass is exciting and that Phil Spencer is way more charismatic, available and open than Jim Ryan which is a 180 from the last generation when Microsoft was helmed by Don Mattrick.
 
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Kingthrash

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Oct 6, 2019
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Don't really agree. Seemed clear to me. We have people posing as "journalists". They don't follow what were clear "journalist" ethics codes as explained by the first video. And the rest is a bit of a deconstruction of that idea.

Following the intro, you have video evidence of some notable people in the games media industry saying things that clearly don't follow what would be considered "journalistic standards."

You have a segment where MS was basically caught paying for good coverage on a site that didn't disclose it, i.e. passing off paid shill material as "news."

Then you have the explanation that none of what you are seeing is, indeed, games journalism, but instead just typical social media nonsense (likening some of the paid material to "influencers", i.e. there is a serious crossover now of "reviewers" and "social media influencers") being masqueraded as objective news. The Cyberpunk video seemed like a clear demonstration of this at the end when the guy is like "Just go out and buy it!" That's a clear "call to action" in marketing speak, and we also know how that game turned out. How could he have been that blown away by the game?

Again all of it seemed clear and connected following from one idea to the other. 1. Here is what journalism is. 2. Here is what happens with game reviews and content. 3. Here is how this is more connected to modern ideas of influencers and paid coverage masquerading as content.

Simple.

Anyway, I don't really care about game sites and all that. Haven't paid attention to them in years, expressly because of the reasons kind of outlined in the video. Which is one reason I don't get upset about it either, it's all clearly nonsense. I still don't understand the controversy of this video. Do people think this stuff is actually legit and thoughtful?
100%
 

Kingthrash

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Oct 6, 2019
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What you wrote is simple. What he conveyed was not. He should hire you. He also never connects the dots between major sites, independent YouTube channels (influencers) and his nebulous claim that influencers are influencing traditional sites like IGN. He's relying way too much on assumptions and, as I pointed out before, was wrong right out of the gate. I'm also struggling to figure out what his thesis is.

Also blanketing out a statement of "here is journalism" and is a weird take. Covering video games and being a White House correspondent are two different things and rightfully so. Enthusiast coverage of hobbies isn't much different if you look at movies, music, TV, cars, etc. I'm not advocating for letting outlets run rough-shot or that it is without problems, but theoretically it is why I'd trust a IGN or Gamespot over a Skill-Up as those traditional sites should have more journalistic practices in place, namely separating out marketing from reviewers/editors. And even then, you have instances with Gamespot and Gerstmann where that didn't occur. Most of the people involved in video game coverage don't have a background in journalism.



What stuff are you referring to? KingThrash obviously has biases towards Sony. Even in this video which is far less blatant than his normal content, he's painting the narrative that Xbox is getting a lot of great press because of corruption and Sony isn't getting a fair shake. It couldn't possibly be that Game Pass is exciting and that Phil Spencer is way more charismatic, available and open than Jim Ryan which is a 180 from the last generation when Microsoft was helmed by Don Mattrick.
The reason you are so wrong is because of this line of thinking. MS was only mentioned because they were caught in the scandal...this was shown because it proved what these companies are willing to do to gain trust and make money. Sony has some things they've done as well and I believe that they may have done the same but with Japanese youtubers (i.e. the youtubers who got to preview the ps5 before anyone) but I don't speak Japanese so I have no video proof of it only my background in working for giant corporations. It's extremely hard to find stuff on sony and Nintendo because of the language barrier and frankly they arnt as loud as MS.

It'll probably be best to not guess and simply ask me...I have no problem clearing things up....I don't care if you disagree....I only care that you at least get your head out of a console war that been over since 2011.

Lastly I don't believe in scripts....as a gamer and a human I don't communicate in scripted form...I talk just as I would in person. If a person needs a script just Hou genuine is he/she being? Sure there would be less pauses or "umms" but I'd take being genuine over anything .
 

bender

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My line of thinking may be wrong but your content and behavior do nothing to change that line of thinking. It's also why I don't need to guess what your intentions are. Biases are fine, I actually prefer when someone wears them on their sleeves. It makes them a whole lot easier to understand and trust what they are saying.

Lastly I don't believe in scripts....as a gamer and a human I don't communicate in scripted form...I talk just as I would in person. If a person needs a script just Hou genuine is he/she being? Sure there would be less pauses or "umms" but I'd take being genuine over anything .

Your output suffers because of this philosophy, especially in long form content like this. It's not about "ummms" and "likes" or other idiosyncrasies, charisma and personality are not your problems. It's about having a through-line to get your point across. And a side benefit to writing a script is that also allows you to do research before tripping over poor assumptions (See my earlier comments about Filip).
 
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JerryinSoCal

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Apr 11, 2020
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There are no more gaming journalists, they are full blown ad spaces for sale now. Influencers as they say. It's perfect for some of the trash companies out there making games.
People need to realize that "Influencers" are walking billboards, commercials with legs they can't be trusted, they are in it to make money not to be "journalists" so people shouldn't trust anyone on youtube or any other social media site IMO. Sadly you can't trust "professional reviewers" either because they don't seem to be on the level either, even if they aren't paid directly they all want to end up working at one of these gaming companies in the future and of course they need access as well.
 

PeteBull

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Dec 8, 2020
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y0 Kingtrash i watch ur videos/listen to roundtable from that time u made that halo infinite/craig vid back last year, i think it was posted on neogaf here.
Overall love the content, never change hahaha, in particulary i like the no political correctness/ very easygoing setting of the podcast.

Ofc there are things i dont agree on with u(2 main that come to mind is u bashing cdpr and overall pc gaming all the time, maybe coz im from europe and here pc gaming is really strong, and we arent that worried about cp2077 being total shit on consoles- yes even current gens, no current gen versions/optimalisations and crazy amount of bugs/crashes- yet sony put it back on the ps store and its toping both euro and us charts- food for thought for u :)

xbox vs playstation thoughts- i only had one xbox- the big og one, the one with huge joypad, other than that big playstation fan, and it wasnt easy to be one here as a poor teenager back in the 90s, many games released in pal months or even years after US/Japan release, some awesome games didnt even have pal(european) version at all, like final fantasy tactics or xenogears(and jrpg is and always was my fav genre) and all pal versions of games made in the us/japan had 25fps instead of 30, or 50fps instead of 60, were slowed down(pal tekken3 vs ntsc pirated version fellt like u fight underwater- i could tell coz i had both versions )and had massive black bars on the bottom and top of the screen :)

Anyways keep doing what u doing, its ok if some ppl get butthurt, i know u arent angsty teenager to really care too much about tiny stuff like that, and just dont get banned lol.
 

demigod

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Apr 17, 2007
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The king...who you

😂😂😂😂 yupp....you got anything else you need to get off your chest bro? The insecure/immaturity level you have tells me you got some more insults to throw my way....so let it all out champ. I'm here.
Don’t bother responding to the dudes with 2020/2021 accounts, they’re most likely banned alts. Unpaid astroturfers.
 
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Kingthrash

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My line of thinking may be wrong but your content and behavior do nothing to change that line of thinking. It's also why I don't need to guess what your intentions are. Biases are fine, I actually prefer when someone wears them on their sleeves. It makes them a whole lot easier to understand and trust what they are saying.



Your output suffers because of this philosophy, especially in long form content like this. It's not about "ummms" and "likes" or other idiosyncrasies, charisma and personality are not your problems. It's about having a through-line to get your point across. And a side benefit to writing a script is that also allows you to do research before tripping over poor assumptions (See my earlier comments about Filip).
I research for months....I believe this video was supposed to launch back in May, but as I found more information, the more I had to fact check and the longer it became. The more I investigated, the more journalists came to give me insight.....its to the point now that it has to be told in episodes.

Episode 1 is kind of the welcome mat of information to almost all other chapters. That first part talking about the code of ethics is the most important part as these are the fundamental rules of journalism and should always be remembered throughout. I was even thinking about cutting it up and putting it in places where certain codes of ethics were the focus....but thought it would be more fun if I didn't hold the hands of my viewers.

But I'm sure you've never done projects as complex to comprehend what I just said about the choices of delivery of only the first 3 minutes of the video.

You believe in rules and boundaries created by what you think or what you saw....or were even taught.......me.....well I make my own rules on how I want to deliver my projects on my channel.

There where absolutely no ads...by choice.
I make all my videos on a Playstation....by choice. Not a pc...would be too easy...writing scripts also too easy.

I like to challenge myself to make very deep and complex videos or music or skits or podcasts or reviews or previews voiceovers off the cuff. In order to do things my way and challange myself my way I gotta do what I do.

I am fully aware that no matter what I do, someone like you will find a way to not like what I did....so its more about impressing myself. As long as im happy with it, I'm good.....you my friend are just along for the ride.
 
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Kingthrash

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Oct 6, 2019
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y0 Kingtrash i watch ur videos/listen to roundtable from that time u made that halo infinite/craig vid back last year, i think it was posted on neogaf here.
Overall love the content, never change hahaha, in particulary i like the no political correctness/ very easygoing setting of the podcast.

Ofc there are things i dont agree on with u(2 main that come to mind is u bashing cdpr and overall pc gaming all the time, maybe coz im from europe and here pc gaming is really strong, and we arent that worried about cp2077 being total shit on consoles- yes even current gens, no current gen versions/optimalisations and crazy amount of bugs/crashes- yet sony put it back on the ps store and its toping both euro and us charts- food for thought for u :)

xbox vs playstation thoughts- i only had one xbox- the big og one, the one with huge joypad, other than that big playstation fan, and it wasnt easy to be one here as a poor teenager back in the 90s, many games released in pal months or even years after US/Japan release, some awesome games didnt even have pal(european) version at all, like final fantasy tactics or xenogears(and jrpg is and always was my fav genre) and all pal versions of games made in the us/japan had 25fps instead of 30, or 50fps instead of 60, were slowed down(pal tekken3 vs ntsc pirated version fellt like u fight underwater- i could tell coz i had both versions )and had massive black bars on the bottom and top of the screen :)

Anyways keep doing what u doing, its ok if some ppl get butthurt, i know u arent angsty teenager to really care too much about tiny stuff like that, and just dont get banned lol.
Lol I won't get banned beo....and thanks
 
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bender

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I research for months....I believe this video was supposed to launch back in May, but as I found more information, the more I had to fact check and the longer it became. The more I investigated, the more journalists came to give me insight.....its to the point now that it has to be told in episodes.

Researched for months and opened with an easily fact checked error.

But I'm sure you've never done projects as complex to comprehend what I just said about the choices of delivery of only the first 3 minutes of the video.

You like assumptions almost as much as you like being wrong.

You believe in rules and boundaries created by what you think or what you saw....or were even taught.......me.....well I make my own rules on how I want to deliver my projects on my channel.

Whoa man, a radical thinker. Gnarly. This reads like a teenager that just discovered anarchy.

I make all my videos on a Playstation....by choice. Not a pc...would be too easy...writing scripts also too easy.

Making life harder on yourself and delivering a worse product is a choice alright. Not sure I'd call that smart but you do you.

I like to challenge myself to make very deep and complex videos or music or skits or podcasts or reviews or previews voiceovers off the cuff. In order to do things my way and challange myself my way I gotta do what I do.

Potential squashed by pigheadedness.

I am fully aware that no matter what I do, someone like you will find a way to not like what I did....so its more about impressing myself. As long as im happy with it, I'm good.....you my friend are just along for the ride.

I never said I disliked your video. In fact I complimented your charisma. I'm just going to assume you are young, real young. Keep the passion though but don't be afraid to grow.
 
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Griffon

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Oct 28, 2017
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I've always wondered... How many posters would be remaining in Neogaf if there weren't any "nano-influencers" aka astroturfers.

I always susepcted (it became super obvious during the XBone DRM debacle), but the recent thread by that guy paid by CDProjekt was a stark recall of the sad reality that pretty much every social media and forum are being manipulated all the time.

Seriously, I don't trust any of you fuckers anymore.
 
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Thebonehead

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Oct 25, 2013
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I've always wondered... How many posters would be remaining in Neogaf if there weren't any "nano-influencers" aka astroturfers.

I always susepcted (it became super obvious during the XBone DRM debacle), but the recent thread by that guy paid by CDProjekt was a stark recall of the sad reality that pretty much every social media and forum are being manipulated all the time.

Seriously, I don't trust any of you fuckers anymore.

That’s so silly, GamePass needs no promotion!

Especially when you can play over 100 high-quality games, plus enjoy Xbox Live Gold and an EA Play membership, all for one low monthly price. For a limited time, get your first 3 months of Ultimate for $1.

;)
 
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Feb 10, 2019
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Researched for months and opened with an easily fact checked error.



You like assumptions almost as much as you like being wrong.



Whoa man, a radical thinker. Gnarly. This reads like a teenager that just discovered anarchy.



Making life harder on yourself and delivering a worse product is a choice alright. Not sure I'd call that smart but you do you.



Potential squashed by pigheadedness.



I never said I disliked your video. In fact I complimented your charisma. I'm just going to assume you are young, real young. Keep the passion though but don't be afraid to grow.
You assuming is very wrong. King Trash is not a boy, he is a mature man, and he knows more about the gamingindustry and is a gamer, he has all the consoles. Then you go on rambling calling him names and trowing al what he says under the bus. You have no counterpoints so your comment is pointless.
 
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supernova8

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3,418
430
It's been like that for a long time. They're just getting worse at hiding it, or rather platforms are tightening the rules around it.

I remember the instance of Jeff Gerstmann giving Kane and Lynch a bad score and getting fired over it (and Gamespot was running K&L ads all over their site at the time, right?)