• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hi Guest. We've rebooted and consolidated our Communities section, so be sure to check it out and subscribe to some threads. Thanks!

Kojima: Death Stranding Had Stronger Criticism in the US, Possibly Because It Flies Above Shooters

thelastword

Member
Apr 7, 2006
8,857
3,158
1,525
Kojima Productions has finally released the first game since becoming independent from KONAMI. Death Stranding officially launched two days ago on PlayStation 4, with a PC version scheduled for next Summer.

In an interview with Italian publication Tgcom24 published on the release day, Hideo Kojima had the chance to discuss the early reception of critics. While the average score was quite high, there were some low scores as well, coming mostly from US publications. Kojima attributed this to their preference for first-person shooter games, whereas Death Stranding, in his own words, 'flies higher'.
"I must say that the game received rave reviews, especially in Europe and Japan. Here in the United States, however, we have had stronger criticisms. Perhaps it is a difficult game to understand for a certain type of critic and audience. Americans are great fans of first-person shooters and Death Stranding isn't one, it flies higher.
I always try to create new things and disputes and discussions are fine, but it must be said that the Italians or the French have a different artistic sensibility that allows them to appreciate this kind of very original product, not only in video games but also in cinema."
Indeed, Kojima has described it as a 'strand game' whereas pretty much every shooter and action games in general are 'stick games'. Death Stranding has combat, of course, but it's far from the main activity in the game as with the vast majority of other releases. With regard to the direction that Kojima wants to steer his studio towards, he mentioned straddling the line between independent and triple-A game productions, mainly because this allows him to still leave his own mark.
"It's a bit of a challenge between independents and blockbusters, I want to be in the middle and take the positive things of both these worlds. It happens that some very authorial games are sold maybe only in Japan and leave with a low budget. But when they try to propose themselves abroad, to become international products, they lose their soul a little as the creative director's imprint slowly disappears. The larger the project becomes, the more the creative face disappears, which also applies to Western games."

https://wccftech.com/kojima-death-stranding-had-stronger-criticism-in-the-us-possibly-because-it-flies-above-shooters/
 

#Phonepunk#

Member
Sep 4, 2018
7,479
10,023
685
38
when MGSV came out i got into a lot of discussions online with people who did not think Snake was a villain. i would explain he has this international army and get "having an army isn't bad" i would say he has a nuke and get "having a nuke isnt bad it's how we won WWII" it was funny cos all the criticisms were just bouncing off these people due to their US-centric view that if our country does it, it can't possibly be bad.

Kojima is saying a lot of things with him games. a good deal of those things fly over people's heads. look at MGSV reviews and how not a single "journalist" covered the geo political nature of the story. it was just about industry gossip "Fuck Konami" etc. they want an easy narrative, they don't want to think. DS might be a victim of "Is it a walking sim?" just because outrage gets clicks. then in 10 or so years someone who actually does their homework will put together a documentary or whatever and people will go "Oh, yeah...."
 

Abriael_GN

Member
Feb 26, 2019
561
2,048
500
Italy
twinfinite.net
Kojima Productions has finally released the first game since becoming independent from KONAMI. Death Stranding officially launched two days ago on PlayStation 4, with a PC version scheduled for next Summer.

In an interview with Italian publication Tgcom24 published on the release day, Hideo Kojima had the chance to discuss the early reception of critics. While the average score was quite high, there were some low scores as well, coming mostly from US publications. Kojima attributed this to their preference for first-person shooter games, whereas Death Stranding, in his own words, 'flies higher'.

Indeed, Kojima has described it as a 'strand game' whereas pretty much every shooter and action games in general are 'stick games'. Death Stranding has combat, of course, but it's far from the main activity in the game as with the vast majority of other releases. With regard to the direction that Kojima wants to steer his studio towards, he mentioned straddling the line between independent and triple-A game productions, mainly because this allows him to still leave his own mark.



https://wccftech.com/kojima-death-stranding-had-stronger-criticism-in-the-us-possibly-because-it-flies-above-shooters/
Take this with a massive grain of salt. What this site isn't telling you in its rush to cherry-pick the potentially most controversial line in an interview to flamebait, is that this line has been published as a translation of a translation of a translation.

Kojima-san spoke in Japanese, he was translated into English (the interview was conducted in the US), and that was translated into Italian, which this site then retranslated into English.

That's a perfect recipe for misquoting and misinterpreting what Kojima-san originally said or intended, which we'll likely never know.

To top it all off, the original interviewer seems to have a hard-on for trying to make Kojima-san say something political (which he was obviously resisting), so that adds even more red flags to the whole thing.
 
Last edited:

Miku Miku

Gold Member
Jan 13, 2018
2,367
3,887
575
That’s an amazing thing to say. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Well, shine on you crazy diamond.
It's kind of true though. Even as a midwestern American, I think even I'm aware that the French and Japanese have a huge crossover in mutual artistic appreciation. Wasn't aware Italy was also included, but I've heard about the France - Japan bromance for years.

I don't think he's trying to shrug off criticism. Japanese devs have known for a long time that France is more in line with them culturally and artistically since far before this product came out. I think he's trying to just explain how he thinks.

And it makes sense really. His last game, MGS V is shooter heavy and more militant, and it always was more popular in the US than in Japan. So of course, considering this is his frame of reference and these are the two series he's worked on, it makes complete sense he'd say that.
 
Last edited:

thelastword

Member
Apr 7, 2006
8,857
3,158
1,525
Are you being sarcastic?
No, I think when MS came into the console business, (an American company) there was a reason why they prioritized their biggest game as a shooter...(Halo)…..They then followed with great links to COD2 on the 360 and the rest is history......Their controllers were also specifically designed to be great at shooters as a primary.....

With my statement, in no way I'm I saying that Americans can't appreciate DS or games of it's ilk, many Americans do, but the majority of Americans do like their COD, Destiny etc...…..If we look at the games the most hyped this gen, especially by MS which has their biggest installbase in America, they focused on Evolve, Titanfall and Anthem...….It's no coincidence that MS as a company pushes shooters so much, almost like it's part of their DNA.....Perhaps they did their research on the preferences, where they would get most support....
 

Sycomunkee

Member
Jan 21, 2019
2,017
1,873
390
He can, I don't think he was controversial or bitter in his response at all.....He basically said Americans are more into shooters, less thinking, less nuance and complexity in their games...….In essence, they like their games with less layers....
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. But gameplay needs to simply be good. Reviewers are pretty fair, so long as a game is good. Otherwise RPG’s and Simulators would score low, but they don’t.
 

thelastword

Member
Apr 7, 2006
8,857
3,158
1,525
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. But gameplay needs to simply be good. Reviewers are pretty fair, so long as a game is good. Otherwise RPG’s and Simulators would score low, but they don’t.
I don't think that's it...…..I think sometimes the preference of the reviewer for certain genres can affect how they perceive and score other games in other genres, they do not like as much, or perhaps are not used to as much...
 

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,617
3,233
600
Ireland
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. But gameplay needs to simply be good. Reviewers are pretty fair, so long as a game is good. Otherwise RPG’s and Simulators would score low, but they don’t.
Western RPG's and sims are pretty shallow though... from the perspective of themes, issues and even on the side of originality.
 

Petrae

Member
Nov 19, 2006
6,132
2,886
1,405
47
West Springfield, MA
www.youtube.com
It’s not about “understanding” what Death Stranding is. It’s that some players just don’t care for the slow, plodding kind of game that videos and some reviews have shown that this is.

People aren’t just going to throw $60 at Kojima’s game because he insinuates that they don’t understand or that it’s above them somehow. Not everyone likes the same things. Some people prefer faster action and feedback, with more limited narrative. (I’m unabashedly one of those people.)
 

Abriael_GN

Member
Feb 26, 2019
561
2,048
500
Italy
twinfinite.net
Assuming that the intention of the statement from Kojima-san is somewhat correct, there is another factor at play, which is likely less visible to most, and probably even to Kojima-san himself.

As someone who has worked for 20 years in gaming journalism first in Italy and then internationally for American sites for the last 10 years, I have noticed that journalists from most European nations have a VERY different approach compared to the American ones (also among themselves, but the difference with the US is very stark).

Many European journalists tend to be affected a lot less by the "I need to criticize this game from a popular developer/franchise because makes me sound smarter and more refined" which affects the North American (most definitely not South American, which is closer to Europe in attitude) press a whole lot. That's why we get fewer reviews that appear written by a snobbier, stuffier version of Rogert Ebert in Europe than we get in North America.

European press is still closer to the traditional idea of "enthusiast journalism" that we had in the nineties and early 2000s, in which writers were fans of games and gaming first, and journalists second. This attitude has faded a lot more in North America.
Your mileage may vary on which is best.

Another large difference (which probably doesn't apply much to this specific case) is that identity politics have not taken as much hold in Europe as they did in North America, and this most definitely influences reviews. There's one less parameter to bitch about if it doesn't fit the reviewers' views. For instance, In Italy, I can think of only one journalist who pushes politics all the time in his coverage, and he isn't exactly respected for that.

It doesn't surprise me at all that IGN Italy and IGN Spain gave Death Stranding high scores, while IGN US gave it a mediocre score. It's perfectly in line with the two different views of gaming journalism across the two continents.
 
Last edited:

thelastword

Member
Apr 7, 2006
8,857
3,158
1,525
Oh no, he is taking the criticism... listening.... letting it sit and then calmly calling them neanderthals incapable of appreciating anything beyond the cheap joys of brainless violence. :messenger_sunglasses: 🌈☔🐋
Ha......perhaps we should do a survey on this.....lets quantify it....I'm pretty sure one exists already tbh......For E.G.....what's the ratio of sales for all those GTA games? How does America Stack?

Western RPG's and sims are pretty shallow though... from the perspective of themes, issues and even on the side of originality.
Indeed.....Can we consider Mass-Effect an RPG Lite? That was really popular in America because you could indeed use weapons heavily......What about Dragon-Age......That was popular because it was very action oriented and when you vanquished your foes in said games, these bits were glorified where you got that instant fulfillment of a bad ass warrior or soldier...….I don't think there's anything wrong with having a preference, so no one should take offence, it's just more of a cultural thing more than anything.....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bryank75

btgorman

Member
Jul 26, 2009
1,732
1,088
905
It’s not about “understanding” what Death Stranding is. It’s that some players just don’t care for the slow, plodding kind of game that videos and some reviews have shown that this is.

People aren’t just going to throw $60 at Kojima’s game because he insinuates that they don’t understand or that it’s above them somehow. Not everyone likes the same things. Some people prefer faster action and feedback, with more limited narrative. (I’m unabashedly one of those people.)
I honestly dont think I get much out of playing Death Stranding. I think I'm better off viewing the cutscenes and stories on YouTube. I have better things to do with my time, which includes reading about philosophy, mathematics, politics, infrastructure, etc. that are most definitely NOT shoot-bang activities. Kojima BTFO'd.

If I want to play a real game I'll play DOTA2 and skip laundry-list questing FEDEX delivery simulators. If I want to think about philosophy I'll read some Bertrand Russell. If I want to listen to somber music I'll listen to Max Cooper. If I want some sci-fi entertainment I'll continue reading my sci-fi book backlog. If Death Stranding is not a good "game" I will NOT dedicate much time to it. Kojima BTFO'd.
 
Last edited:

Jtibh

Member
Sep 19, 2019
159
196
210
Sorry but what a bunch of bull.
Is this 2006???
Fps???? Like how many fps did we have this year?
Europeans and art? More mature?
They try to copy everything american. From movies to shows to music to trends.
Did you hear them talk? Every second word is some english filler .

Nah man when americans go nuts about some new souls game this just seems like a lazy fucking excuse.


Fyi i am european.
 

Psykodad

Member
Apr 9, 2018
1,098
1,131
345
It’s not about “understanding” what Death Stranding is. It’s that some players just don’t care for the slow, plodding kind of game that videos and some reviews have shown that this is.

People aren’t just going to throw $60 at Kojima’s game because he insinuates that they don’t understand or that it’s above them somehow. Not everyone likes the same things. Some people prefer faster action and feedback, with more limited narrative. (I’m unabashedly one of those people.)
100% guaranteed that he didn't mean to offend anyone and his comments are taken out of context.
 

thelastword

Member
Apr 7, 2006
8,857
3,158
1,525
100% guaranteed that he didn't mean to offend anyone and his comments are taken out of context.
Yes indeed, yet I don't think his comments are generally perceived by persons as offensive or insulting Americans as opposed to highlighting what they generally prefer.....

I think the persons trying to skew this as an insult to Americans are being quite a bit disingenuous.....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Psykodad

Kadayi

Probable Replicant & GIF PIMP
Oct 10, 2012
8,414
7,504
1,065
theconclave.net
Sounds like a clickbait article tbh.

People have the right not to like something and clearly the game didn't gel with all reviewers. Right now with the game just having launched, opinions from all quarters are going to be caught up in the moment. I think it will take some actual distance before an accurate public consensus can be reached. I've watched a good few hours of a recorded stream (into chapter 3 now) and I think the premise of the game is interesting, but at the same time, some of it seems kind of onerous in places and I could imagine that's not for everyone. Personally I'm looking forward to it when it comes to PC, but then I'm not a massive fan of relentless violence in games, so this is kind of up my street. With that said, a game still needs to be fun at the end of the day.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bryank75

Neff

Member
Feb 6, 2012
12,053
526
880
UK
Let's be honest, being a space postman isn't very sexy, even if you're Norman Reedus.

But yeah, there are regional markets more willing to embrace this or that over others. If european markets are leaning towards it, it doesn't surprise me in the least. Has a very old-school, experimental, pioneering home computer feel to it, almost Elite-esque.

It's amazing how much Death Stranding manages to remind me of so many other games all at once but still feel fresh and original.
 

Hissing Sid

Member
Feb 19, 2015
775
1,184
460
This is true.

American gamers play video games on prolapsed vinyl couches in their underwear, while they suck grits and scratch their sweaty bollocks with large caliber, pearl handled revolvers. You obviously can't expect such people to be able to grasp anything with more depth than your run-of-the-mill shooty shooty bang bang.

Meanwhile in the rest of the world and especially in Europe, gamers play their games attired in silk smoking jackets from the comfort of high-backed leather armchairs, controller in one hand and tulip glass filled with the finest cognac in the other, which allows the full flavour of the bouquet to flow up into ones nostrils.

Altogether a more elegant approach to gaming from a more refined group of humans.

It's a cultural thing.
 

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
1,157
511
420
Kojima Productions has finally released the first game since becoming independent from KONAMI. Death Stranding officially launched two days ago on PlayStation 4, with a PC version scheduled for next Summer.

In an interview with Italian publication Tgcom24 published on the release day, Hideo Kojima had the chance to discuss the early reception of critics. While the average score was quite high, there were some low scores as well, coming mostly from US publications. Kojima attributed this to their preference for first-person shooter games, whereas Death Stranding, in his own words, 'flies higher'.

Indeed, Kojima has described it as a 'strand game' whereas pretty much every shooter and action games in general are 'stick games'. Death Stranding has combat, of course, but it's far from the main activity in the game as with the vast majority of other releases. With regard to the direction that Kojima wants to steer his studio towards, he mentioned straddling the line between independent and triple-A game productions, mainly because this allows him to still leave his own mark.



https://wccftech.com/kojima-death-stranding-had-stronger-criticism-in-the-us-possibly-because-it-flies-above-shooters/
So Games like Spider-Man or Gran Turismo don’t sell well in America by that statement then? What about Zelda or MARIO?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shadowstar39

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,617
3,233
600
Ireland
So Games like Spider-Man or Gran Turismo don’t sell well in America by that statement then? What about Zelda or MARIO?
Zelda has swords

Mario is about the long standing grudge between the Irish and Italian immigrants in America, the game is obviously from the perspective of an anti-Irish Italian thug who stomps on Irish workers / potato men as they innocently walk to work.
It is the videogame version of American History X.

It is also highly misogynistic, with various subtexts and metaphors about princesses and plumbing, bestiality and the like....
 
Last edited:

Azelover

Member
Dec 3, 2004
2,886
337
1,415
There are popular non-shooters too. I think it's more the value of the game, it's not centered on combat or action.

It's very easy to misunderstand what he's saying here.
 

Silent Duck

GIF and Meme Champion
Sep 22, 2018
810
2,035
580
I just sat through (what seemed like two hours of) the worst movie ever, then I had to walk a corpse up a mountain, only to be treated to another hour of the dumbest storytelling shat out of my television screen.

I think maybe this might be the reason for the criticism. :unsure:

However, If they decided to get rid of the “up its own ass” cutscenes, this could be the best stumbling simulator, created by a madman, that I ever played.