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[ArtHands]

While it is very possible and likely that Kojima needed to be cut loose, the question here is what else does Konami have right now from the perspective of a console gamer other than Kojima? Konami may let Kojima go because of his cost, but will that lead to Konami investing in a variety of smaller console games with the money they would've otherwise funneled to Kojima? Is the budget that would have been spent on a Kojima-made Metal Gear going to instead be spent on bringing Konami up to the level of Namco Bandai, Square Enix, or Tecmo Koei in terms of console titles? Most likely that money is going to funneled into their gambling and mobile divisions, and if people aren't a fan of either of those business like most on NeoGAF, then Konami would effectively be dead to them.

Well in that case, its basically them playing it safe and investing in multiple low risk projects then, rather than putting all their eggs in one basket and investing in just one high risk project here.

 

[nycgamer4ever]

If this is true it basically confirms that all MGS game going forward will not have the same quality.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Konami didn't want to pay for that western budget philosophy.

 

[Memorabilia]

He's worth all the money, IMO.

This. Fuck Konami. I'm buying this shit used. And will cherish his creation.

 

[BobTheFork]

As a customer, I only care about the product so good work Kojima for never settling for less and fuck you Konami.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

If this is true it basically confirms that all MGS game going forward will not have the same quality.

Were you expecting otherwise?

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

That argument is fine but this thread is filled with armchair business analysts calling Konami morons for letting Kojima go. NeoGAF as a whole is often both unaware and indifferent to what actually sells well in gaming but often think they know better and espouse that catering to their niche tastes is the sure path to success.

I will call them out in how horrible managed the situation and how this doesn't validate the apparent petty actions that have been done after it.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Threads like this are so upsetting. Not because of the news about kojima or konami, but because you can actually see what will, in the future be repeated talking points from detractors, form entirely out of jumps to conclusions throughout the topic. It's literally agenda setting.

What I mean is, over the course of this thread, the narrative has morphed from "konami wasnt getting the return out of their investment they desired" to "metal gear solid loses money." That is an enormous leap of logic. Sometimes businesses cut ties because the profit they make isnt worth the risk they assume. I.e. I pour 100 million into a project, but it pulls in $110 million, thr $10 million return isnt worth the risk going forward. That is entirely different than a series being flat out unprofitable. But people seemingly cant understand that nuance.

I hate it when narratives like this springs it up. It reminds me of when, as an example, someone said maybe earthbound wasnt rereleased because some music in the game sounded like copyrighted music, then a month later that was the definite, absolute answer. "They CAN'T rerelease earthbound for legal reasons!" Repeated over and over again. Until they did, and it turns out "legal reasons" was never the case. Another example - "nintendo cant release more vc games because they care too much about perfect emulation!"

Hunches becoming the story itself. Not a single person in this thread knows if metal gear is profitable or not, but thousands of posts assuming its losing money.

How aggravating.

Marvel versus capcom 3 can't happen because licenses
Strider can't happen due to licenses
Capcom can't afford street fighter V
Nintendo outsold Sega everywhere in the world
Sony too!
Xbox family sharing was utopian guys!
Shenmue 3 can never happen because licenses
Square can't afford FF 7 remake (HD towns!)
Marvel versus Capcom 4 can't happen becausr licenses

Narratives take hold..

 

[NinjaMouse]

Definitely not surprising. It's probably been said earlier in the thread, but I've always thought that the whole reason MGSV: GZ existed was to build more money to fund the rest of the real MGSV development. I figure Konami was nearly getting bled dry by the development of this game.

 

[Servbot24]

If this is true it basically confirms that all MGS game going forward will not have the same quality.

They won't have the same personality, but they could be their own thing and still be good, like Rising.

 

[Justified]

I will call them out in how horrible managed the situation and how this doesn't validate the apparent petty actions that have been done after it.

An Argument can be made if their action were petty or not for sure. But from a business point of view, they can be justified.

The likely scenario: Kojipro was no more, most likely Kojima retain the the name. Konami legally has not right to use it on their products.

The way they managed it only seem horrible, because of how high profile it was. And no company will speak publicly on action concerning employees (full-time or contracted)

 

[diffusionx]

I think MGS series sales peaked with #2, and that was like, 10M copies. MGS4 got like 6 million.

I read that Konami spend $80M-$90M on Phantom Pain, and you'd spend that money if you want 20M in sales. I think MGS5 will do a lot better than MGS4 but I really don't see it hitting 20M. So, it is what it is. I appreciate Kojima's work immensely but I don't see how he is ever going to find someone to give him those huge budgets paired with those low sales.

 

[BRocknRolla]

I get that people want to play the best possible game, and I do too, but do people really not understand that the video game industry remains a business? You have to put out a game, and you have to make your money back, and you can't spend 10 years doing. If Konami doesn't want to bankroll Kojima's insane passion projects, I can hardly blame them. I love the MGS games, but I don't see how anyone can fault Konami for not wanting to continue supporting Kojima's manner of development.

 

[e-gamer]

I think MGS series sales peaked with #2, and that was like, 10M copies. MGS4 got like 6 million.

I read that Konami spend $80M-$90M on Phantom Pain, and you'd spend that money if you want 20M in sales. I think MGS5 will do a lot better than MGS4 but I really don't see it hitting 20M. So, it is what it is. I appreciate Kojima's work immensely but I don't see how he is ever going to find someone to give him those huge budgets paired with those low sales.

I think it will sell pretty well, mainly because it's a cross-gen game.

I'd bet something like 7-9 million for lifetime.

 

[Justified]

I get that people want to play the best possible game, and I do too, but do people really not understand that the video game industry remains a business? You have to put out a game, and you have to make your money back, and you can't spend 10 years doing. If Konami doesn't want to bankroll Kojima's insane passion projects, I can hardly blame them. I love the MGS games, but I don't see how anyone can fault Konami for not wanting to continue supporting Kojima's manner of development.

Well its a few in this very thread. One post even said shame on Konami for not being willing to go bankrupt for him lol.

I agree with you by the way

 

[XGoldenboyX]

At least he came pretty close, or in some cases even better on all his games.. yes expensive but his team did work wonders in pushing each system to have the best possible graphics. I wonder if they will deliver this time around.

Overpowered PS3 DEMO

PS3 INGAME engine

 

[Ralemont]

I get that people want to play the best possible game, and I do too, but do people really not understand that the video game industry remains a business? You have to put out a game, and you have to make your money back, and you can't spend 10 years doing. If Konami doesn't want to bankroll Kojima's insane passion projects, I can hardly blame them. I love the MGS games, but I don't see how anyone can fault Konami for not wanting to continue supporting Kojima's manner of development.

I don't mind Konami deciding to part ways with Kojima for these reasons at all. I just don't get the erasure of his name from everything. That's typically something a company will only benefit from if the person was involved in a huge scandal, like Hogan and the WWE. That doesn't appear to be the case, based on this account.

 

[diffusionx]

I think it will sell pretty well, mainly because it's a cross-gen game.

I'd bet something like 7-9 million for lifetime.

I think it may do better than that, but then again I was surprised when I read about the prior games' sales. I guess I thought the series was more popular than it was.

Even if it does 9 or 10 million, that's a good number, but not good enough for that type of investment.

 

[BRocknRolla]

I don't mind Konami deciding to part ways with Kojima for these reasons at all. I just don't get the erasure of his name from everything. That's typically something a company will only benefit from if the person was involved in a huge scandal, like Hogan and the WWE. That doesn't appear to be the case, based on this account.

Agreed there. The way its been handled has been poor all around. I'm just talking to the folks who don't seem to get the financial implications.

 

[XGoldenboyX]

I wish this could have been made a PS4 demo to play. The atmosphere and details are so awesome, the FPS segment still looks great and there is a realistic style to it all that Im still amazed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaeYAW89a3M

 

[seady]

Sometimes I wonder how much credit Kojima should get for his games. Without the budget I don't think his game would be half good. Vice Versa, many game developers can make a game that good if they have that much budget.

 

[Gator86]

I get that people want to play the best possible game, and I do too, but do people really not understand that the video game industry remains a business? You have to put out a game, and you have to make your money back, and you can't spend 10 years doing. If Konami doesn't want to bankroll Kojima's insane passion projects, I can hardly blame them. I love the MGS games, but I don't see how anyone can fault Konami for not wanting to continue supporting Kojima's manner of development.

100% agreed. Konami is a business and not a charity for misunderstood geniuses. Kojima also isn't some anomaly in terms of his passion for games. Most people in gaming are just as passionate about their products. The difference is they can be passionate and get games out in a reasonable timeframe while keeping the budget to a minimum.

I'm still astounded at the outcry over Konami removing his name from the MGS materials. If he's no longer with the company, or at least won't be after the game's release, why would Konami continue promoting him as the face of the product? It would be inane for them to do so. I'm sure his name will still show up in the credits a dozen or more times along with a pile of self-referential jokes during the game itself.

Most of this just comes across as business being business. There's nothing especially shady going on at all unless I've missed something. Then again, I suppose I can understand some of the outrage. Where will gamers go for intellectually vapid nanomachine babble and poop jokes now?

 

[jailbird20022]

Sometimes I wonder how much credit Kojima should get for his games. Without the budget I don't think his game would be half good. Vice Versa, many game developers can make a game that good if they have that much budget.

They do, they just spend most of it on marketing.

 

[Ralemont]

I'm still astounded at the outcry over Konami removing his name from the MGS materials. If he's no longer with the company, or at least won't be after the game's release, why would Konami continue promoting him as the face of the product? It would be inane for them to do so. I'm sure his name will still show up in the credits a dozen or more times along with a pile of self-referential jokes during the game itself.

What is the downside to leaving his name on there?

 

[hammertomb]

What is the downside to leaving his name on there?

He no longer works for konami . No company would have their ex employees name on their product.

 

[Pompadour]

I don't mind Konami deciding to part ways with Kojima for these reasons at all. I just don't get the erasure of his name from everything. That's typically something a company will only benefit from if the person was involved in a huge scandal, like Hogan and the WWE. That doesn't appear to be the case, based on this account.

I figured from the get-go Kojima had his name and team erased from anything that advertised the game. Kojima is one of few developers people know by name so it makes no sense that a business would remove him just to be petty.

 

[Ralemont]

I figured from the get-go Kojima had his name and team erased from anything that advertised the game. Kojima is one of few developers people know by name so it makes no sense that a business would remove him just to be petty.

Kojima requesting it removed certainly makes more sense than the other way around, since if he resents Konami for how things went sour he would at least know they wouldn't be making money off his name after he's gone. But it seems to me like Konami would, if anything, want to keep his name on the product to add value if they could.

 

[Justified]

Kojima requesting it removed certainly makes more sense than the other way around, since if he resents Konami for how things went sour he would at least know they wouldn't be making money off his name after he's gone. But it seems to me like Konami would, if anything, want to keep his name on the product to add value if they could.

Not if they legally can not

 

[Pompadour]

Not if they legally can not

Which is probably what happened. And if pettiness is involved in this somehow, I can see it coming from one person (Kojima) than a board of directors.

 

[Gator86]

He no longer works for konami . No company would have their ex employees name on their product.

I don't know how people don't understand this. Konami needs to get his name away from the IP if they plan to continue it after he leaves. Why would any company willingly continue to tie a strong IP to someone who is no longer actively involved with it?

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Just to play devil's advocate.

If the director of a project cutting his own trailers that run over 5 minutes long, isn't a sign of self indulgence, I don't know what is. A visionary for sure, but all the effort put on keeping the public guessing for months are resources not going into the game per se.

 

[OccamsLightsaber]

He's worth all the money, IMO.

Right! He's worth his weight in gold.

 

[Pompadour]

Just to play devil's advocate.

If the director of a project cutting his own trailers that run over 5 minutes long, isn't a sign of self indulgence, I don't know what is. A visionary for sure, but all the effort put on keeping the public guessing for moths are resources not going into the game per se.

Trailer cutting is probably what Kojima's best at. I'd prefer if he was an advisory producer like Miyamoto rather than straight director. The man has great ideas but not all of his ideaa are great.

 

[Alienous]

Right! He's worth his weight in gold.

That would make him worth about $3 million dollars.

It seems likely that Konami have paid him more than that. Maybe that's where the tension arose?

 

[Stuart444]

Not if they legally can not

"As he no longer works for the company and as Kojima owns the Kojipro banner/logo, we are unable to keep his logo and name on the box art" or "Kojima has requested that we remove his name and the Kojipro logo from the art work" or something similar.

Is that so hard? there would literally be no downside to this and Konami looks much better than they did. Keeping quiet (unless it's a legal dispute which this was not) only hurt them.

I think most people were not just mad at his name/Kojipro logos being removed but at Konami being very very quiet on it and hoping people forget. A simple statement clarifying why they did it would help a lot unless they did it for a bad reason and they know it.

I mean any statement above would have made quite a few people more understanding I believe.

 

[Death Metalist]

No not really. Especially if the return on investment can't justify it, at that point you reign in in the costs.

The return on investment is justified to you, me and other gamers. It just isn't justified as much to greedy dinosaurs. Why get a 10$ million return instead of any other number higher than 10? I'm sure every MGS made by Kojima and co was profitable and then some. It's just that how can I pay less and get more, it's always like that. That's how films are nowadays, why do something practical when I could CGI that shit for half the cost? There will always be a cheaper way to do something in whatever medium but most of the time it wouldn't be the best way to go about it. In my opinion, a creator should always strive to bring his/her vision, whatever it is as close as he possibly could to life in whatever medium he/she chooses.

 

[Chibo]

Right! He's worth his weight in gold.

What is that, like 2.5 mill? He's worth his weight in (phantom) Painite.

Kojima's been trying to get away from Metal Gear since Sons of Liberty, and it seems really perfect for him to remove his golden handcuffs by commissioning bigger, more elaborate chains. MGS4 seemed like a parody of the big budget game it was expected to be, and since Konami didn't get the joke, he had to make something truly excessive.

Whistler's patron commissioned him to oversee the painting of a room, just to make sure the colors were coordinated. Instead, Whistler produced the three million dollar Peacock Room, a "masterpiece of interior decorative mural art." It wasn't what his patron wanted, and it kind of ruined his career, but it's a wonderful example of an auteur taking charge. Art for art's sake is so hard to do on the grand scale of the AAA video games industry, so I really look forward to seeing the elaborate plumage of Kojima's brazen tour de force.

 

[Springfoot]

Kojima requesting it removed certainly makes more sense than the other way around, since if he resents Konami for how things went sour he would at least know they wouldn't be making money off his name after he's gone. But it seems to me like Konami would, if anything, want to keep his name on the product to add value if they could.

I guess I'll just post this again:

Not the only place I've read this notion, but it's the first one that came up from a quick google search - basically the idea is that Kojima wanted his name removed so he can retain the right to use it in the future. You know "Prince" and how he was forced to become "The Artist Formerly Known as Prince"? Same idea. He doesn't want his own name to be owned by Konami without the ability to form any other "Kojima _____" studios in the future.

 

[diffusionx]

The return on investment is justified to you, me and other gamers. It just isn't justified as much to greedy dinosaurs. Why get a 10$ million return instead of any other number higher than 10? I'm sure every MGS made by Kojima and co was profitable and then some. It's just that how can I pay less and get more, it's always like that. That's how films are nowadays, why do something practical when I could CGI that shit for half the cost? There will always be a cheaper way to do something in whatever medium but most of the time it wouldn't be the best way to go about it. In my opinion, a creator should always strive to bring his/her vision, whatever it is as close as he possibly could to life in whatever medium he/she chooses.

This is getting into how businesses work, but it's simply human nature to try to get as much as possible while paying as little as possible. We all do it every day. The reason why a return of N isn't sufficient is because money isn't infinite and there is an opportunity cost. So by investing that money to get N you may be ignoring an opportunity to make N*2. This is a bad use of money. It's not something I or anyone else would ever do in our daily lives. The fact that N gets you Metal Gear and N*2 gets you a pachinko game is sad for Metal Gear fans but good for pachinko fans and the people who own Konami. If Konami consistently ignores returns and opportunity costs they would find themselves out of business, because that's just how it goes.

Kojima has always strove to bring his vision to gamers but he is also not immune to financial reality, even if he paid for his games out of his own pocket.

 

[OmegaFax]

He was probably given a lot of free range (and personal branding) at Konami's expense. It makes sense that they reached their threshold. Didn't Kojima himself say that there would be less dialog in the upcoming MGS5 game? Is Konami eating more expenses that are generally lead to believe? Like, did they pay for more time from Kiefer Sutherland and actually use him less? I wonder how much they paid to secure Norman Reedus for Silent Hills.

 

[Crossing Eden]

At least he came pretty close, or in some cases even better on all his games.. yes expensive but his team did work wonders in pushing each system to have the best possible graphics. I wonder if they will deliver this time around.

Overpowered PS3 DEMO

PS3 INGAME engine

It's crossgen, and 60fps. It shows in the gameplay videos that it won't be "best looking console game" caliber like the other releases were at the time, cutscenes look great though.

 

[Slowdive]

He was probably given a lot of free range (and personal branding) at Konami's expense. It makes sense that they reached their threshold. Didn't Kojima himself say that there would be less dialog in the upcoming MGS5 game? Is Konami eating more expenses that are generally lead to believe? Like, did they pay for more time from Kiefer Sutherland and actually use him less? I wonder how much they paid to secure Norman Reedus for Silent Hills.

There'll be less cutscenes, but a lot of dialogue in tapes, even from Kiefer going by the recent previews.

 

[StrangeTaco]

And what of PT? I guess Konami just had to not only remove the game from PSN for new users, but they had to prevent previous users from ever downloading it again. Now the game is inimitable art, only a relative few will play it, and all because Konami couldn't bear his name being associated with a project they will now ruin.

They can't bear to have consumers be confused when the next Silent Hill game comes out and looks, plays, and feels completely different than PT, so they killed this unique horror game in the most effective way possible with modern technology. Literally no one can transfer the license or sell the game, so its effectively locked into a person's console now. Its like a dead switch that breaks a disc as soon as it is ejected from the slot. I can't believe they went so far to screw over everyone, now so few new people can experience PT as it is.

But hey, its "just a teaser".

You realize that it was pulled so they wouldnt have to continue paying licensing fees on a dead project right? It not some vendetta against gamers or Kojima.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

It's crossgen, and 60fps. It shows in the gameplay videos that it won't be "best looking console game" caliber like the other releases were at the time, cutscenes look great though.

It's without a doubt the best looking cross-gen game and the fact that it's open world, 60fps and looks this good is an incredible achievement from Kojima Productions.

Like some previewers said MGSV is the first real next-gen game because of the gameplay. You can call motherbase anytime for support, equipment, changing your buddy etc. and it's all in real time without any loading screens.

That to me is more impressive than anything we've seen yet of next-gen only games.

 

[neoism]

I mean, do you know how much money he's brought in compared to how much he's chewed through? You can earn millions for a company, but it's worthless if you're losing 10s of millions.

It's cool to be detail oriented and want to deliver a great project, but it's still important to be able to stay on top of a budget and schedule. It's pretty selfish to act like it's ok if fans get something they enjoy, regardless of what it costs anyone else

And even if he used to earn him money years ago, if his recent work is costing them tons, then yes, he deserves to be fired. I don't think it's right to give someone a pass simply because they did a good job years ago.

lol years ago every MGS makes konami massive profit... he probably just spent more than they wanted... hes done fucking excellent work for them for 25 years... this game will sale up to 6mill... if not more its on ever platform.. it will make them profit out ass... konami just wanted him to shit it out and he didnt... fuck konmai.. too hell with them cant wait to NEVER give this shitty company any of my money ever again....

 

[neoism]

I don't really understand how MGS3 was so restrained (comparitively) after MGS2, then he just went off the deep end more than ever for MGS4.

i loooved mgs2 prob my fav but yeah i agree the worst thing about 3 was the replayability wasnt very good you couldnt use your unlocks from diff to diff unlike mgs2 i beat it like 8 times on ever diff and got every dog tag.. but those fucking goddamn frogs just killed my nerves in mgs3.... it did have the best ending though... i also really loved mgs4 for the gameplay after seeing the ending once i was like -_____- i skipped ever cutsence on every playthough after that lol.....


still man i cant wait for this game...

 

[rpg_fan]

It seems that Kojima is a high-rent boyfriend who Konami kept around because he's a fantastic cook. But as his tastes changed, he kept wanting more and more expensive ingredients. Then the dinners started coming later and later. Finally they got to the point where the only thing that held their relationship together is gone, and Konami ended it.

See? Everything in life can be explained through food.

 

[Justified]

"As he no longer works for the company and as Kojima owns the Kojipro banner/logo, we are unable to keep his logo and name on the box art" or "Kojima has requested that we remove his name and the Kojipro logo from the art work" or something similar.

Is that so hard? there would literally be no downside to this and Konami looks much better than they did. Keeping quiet (unless it's a legal dispute which this was not) only hurt them.

I think most people were not just mad at his name/Kojipro logos being removed but at Konami being very very quiet on it and hoping people forget. A simple statement clarifying why they did it would help a lot unless they did it for a bad reason and they know it.

I mean any statement above would have made quite a few people more understanding I believe.

It's not, but you would be hard pressed to find any business that speaks on internal employees either full time or contractors while they are still employed there

 

[Sn4ke_911]

Ups im late, it's already on: http://www.hitbox.tv/nationfusion

 

[Love Deterrence]

Yong da God coming thru