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Kotaku: Epic say Unreal PS5 demo is also targeting Xbox Series X

nikolino840

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I’d like to know where you guys get that “SSD is only for load times” info. I mean, John Linneman, Tim Sweeney, Mark Cerny, the sources (AAA devs) of Jason Schreier, the ones from Moore Law’s Dead and even Alex Battaglia admites that a fast storage can improve the render pipeline moving assets faster. So, what are your sources for “only load times”?

I’m curious to know. What is the reasoning behind spending so much cost of the PS5 production materials, both on silicon and drive, in load times.
I thought Is also for load the textures,but still load time
 

Radical_3d

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Don't bother. Saying ssd is only for loading times is trolling level at this point. Neogaf has literally been filled with enough proof and in depth technical information about SSDs improving asset quality, not to mention sweeney himself stating SSD played a key role in the demo looking that good. So anybody acting that ignorant is clearly having some low grade fun.
Must be damned fun to be ignorant.
 
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CatLady

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but alot of that is directx 12 ultimate which is also available even in old rtx cards.

If microsoft said here we have all these features that are not available in rtx cards or even in rdna2 cards, that would be one thing.

The ps4 pro had features that were even missing from the xbox one x which came out one year later.
And who created Direct X ultimate and for what reason?

 
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I’d like to know where you guys get that “SSD is only for load times” info. I mean, John Linneman, Tim Sweeney, Mark Cerny, the sources (AAA devs) of Jason Schreier, the ones from Moore Law’s Dead and even Alex Battaglia admites that a fast storage can improve the render pipeline moving assets faster. So, what are your sources for “only load times”?

I’m curious to know. What is the reasoning behind spending so much cost of the PS5 production materials, both on silicon and drive, in load times.
Also why would both MS and PS invest in these techs? "Lets make our consoles more expensive for no other reason than slightly faster loading times". At this point there has been too many quotes, statements and corroboration from the industry that you would have to be pretty daft not accept these advancements in SSD I/O will benefit gaming graphics for the next generation. IMO one camp is a little insecure that their chosen plastic box isnt as well equipped in that department. This is further perpetuated by the other camp beating their chest and claiming the SSD i/o advancements are the only thing that will move the needle next gen. We need to accept that both of these systems will be great and have thier pros and cons when compared to one another and also accept SSDs with the custom i/o advancements will infact move the industry forward FOR BOTH SYSTEMS!!!!!!!
 
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What leak ? I am talking about the PS5 Spiderman SSD demo that they showed.
Right, i may be wrong but i thought that was shown to a closed audience and was leaked. Im just saying who knows what else has been demonstrated behind closed doors. All we know is what has been leaked. Unless of course if it was made publicly available from Sony.
 
Nov 5, 2016
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I’d like to know where you guys get that “SSD is only for load times” info. I mean, John Linneman, Tim Sweeney, Mark Cerny, the sources (AAA devs) of Jason Schreier, the ones from Moore Law’s Dead and even Alex Battaglia admites that a fast storage can improve the render pipeline moving assets faster. So, what are your sources for “only load times”?

I’m curious to know. What is the reasoning behind spending so much cost of the PS5 production materials, both on silicon and drive, in load times.
Yeah, I mean doesn the demo itself show how games developed specifically with SSDs in mind (and require them) can offer increased fidelity, stuff like better LOD/draw distance etc assuming you’re CPU/GPU is up to the task?

I was totally skeptical for a long time but I admit I was wrong, and as guys like ethomaz ethomaz said, a game/engine designed around an SSD working in tandem with strong CPU/GPU (which both both next gen consoles and good gaming PCs all have) can really take things to a new level, visually
 

Radical_3d

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Yeah, I mean doesn the demo itself show how games developed specifically with SSDs in mind (and require them) can offer increased fidelity, stuff like better LOD/draw distance etc assuming you’re CPU/GPU is up to the task?

I was totally skeptical for a long time but I admit I was wrong, and as guys like ethomaz ethomaz said, a game/engine designed around an SSD working in tandem with strong CPU/GPU (which both both next gen consoles and good gaming PCs all have) can really take things to a new level, visually
You are my favourite team green guy, you knew that? I knew the SSD was going to be crucial when both companies went for that ridiculous 16GB of RAM. The GPUs are going to be starving. I guess the Pros will be better suited for this gen. Yes, you can do better things with faster SSD, most of the time it’s going to be working to save the generation. The overhead in PS5 will show minor improvements and that’s it.
 

hyperbertha

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You are my favourite team green guy, you knew that? I knew the SSD was going to be crucial when both companies went for that ridiculous 16GB of RAM. The GPUs are going to be starving. I guess the Pros will be better suited for this gen. Yes, you can do better things with faster SSD, most of the time it’s going to be working to save the generation. The overhead in PS5 will show minor improvements and that’s it.
He is neutral. Don't you dare call him team anything.
 

CatLady

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You are my favourite team green guy, you knew that? I knew the SSD was going to be crucial when both companies went for that ridiculous 16GB of RAM. The GPUs are going to be starving. I guess the Pros will be better suited for this gen. Yes, you can do better things with faster SSD, most of the time it’s going to be working to save the generation. The overhead in PS5 will show minor improvements and that’s it.
So Lawrence ‘Chunk’ Cohen Lawrence ‘Chunk’ Cohen when did you become a member of Team Green? Do you even have an Xbox? I know you have a PS4 Pro and PC. You talked about getting a OneX when comparison videos for RDR came out, is that when you joined up? Or did we convert you when you mistakenly came into to one of our top secret Xbox discord strategy sessions?

I always thought of you as Team Neutral with leanings towards Team Blue, but lately I've frequently seen you accused of being an Xbot. If true, welcome to the darkside :pie_roffles: :messenger_beaming:"pie_tears_joy::pie_roffles::pie_grinning_big_eyes:
 
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So Lawrence ‘Chunk’ Cohen Lawrence ‘Chunk’ Cohen when did you become a member of Team Green? Do you even have an Xbox? I know you have a PS4 Pro and PC. You talked about getting a OneX when comparison videos for RDR came out, is that when you joined up? Or did we convert you when you mistakenly came into to one of our top secret Xbox discord strategy sessions?


I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you.


I like gaming on everything. I just love cool hardware. A rising tide raises all ships. What the XsX and PS5 are doing seems really awesome.
 
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Kazekage1981

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Point said the Nanite demo they showed basically rely on storage speeds and freeing up GPU power.

For that specific demo yes PS5 qualities are more important than RAW power.

If I have to guess:

+ PS5: lower resolution, more Nanite details on screen
+ Xbox: higher resolution, less Nanite details on screen


For the tech they demoed yesterday PS5 is unmatchable even in PC space today.
I call that absolute bullocks!!!!!!

IDONTBELIEVEYOU.GIF

That is such an oversimplification and projection based on nothing!!!! shenanigans!!!! :messenger_ogre::messenger_poop::lollipop_flores:
 
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Bernkastel

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Epic had a recent Chinese livestream
In 53 minute mark they said the demo can be running 40fps on a laptop.
A RTX2080 and 970 evo plus laptop to be exact as per this forum user, with a NVMe SSD that is.
 
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ethomaz

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Epic had a recent Chinese livestream
In 53 minute mark they said the demo can be running 40fps on a laptop.
A RTX2080 and 970 evo plus laptop to be exact as per this forum user, with a NVMe SSD that is.
That is not true.

- It is running in a RTX 2080 mobile (weaker than RTX 2070)
- He never said which SSD (probably the one that come with the notebook)
- He never said the settling/resolution/etc (people are guessing 1080p)
- He never said it was running in the same level as PS5.
- He said he just run the opening part at 60fps.
- He said Lumens is the more taxing?
 
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Bernkastel

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That is not true.

- It is running in a RTX 2080 mobile (weaker than RTX 2070)
- He never said which SSD (probably the one that come with the notebook)
- He never said the settling/resolution/etc (people are guessing 1080p)
- He never said it was running in the same level as PS5.
- He said he just run the opening part at 60fps.
- He said Lumens is the more taxing?
Just asked him personally, the video card is 2080, hard drive he is a little can not remember the specific model, may be 970 evo plus .
 
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ethomaz

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You can watch the video.
This forum poster is fooling you.

Some timestamp:

2:06:30 If its a 1080P screen, 2 triangle per pixel, make some compression on vertex, than you still can run this demo, no need very high bandwidth and IO like PS5.

Higher resolution = higher bandwidth you need.

2:08:00, SSD bandwidth (for the flying part) isn’t as that high as ppl said, not need a stricted spec SSD (decent SSD is ok).
this is very important to understand how SSD paly a role in the fly scene


The flying scene is not bandwidth intensive but that we already know, no?

BTW 40fps is specific to the Lumen scene... he did no say how much he get with Nanite part... he did no specify the resolution too.

Translations from:https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/unreal-engine-5-2021-tech-demo.61740/page-27#post-2126234
 
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Omeggos

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How? No games only being made for PS5 made by Epic using UE5 were announced.
“If they show the ps5 version, then that must mean its better right?”

thats the general point of marketing, to make it look (or sound) better than the other version. Rdr2 technically performs and looks better on xbox one x but the marketing is still with ps4 and therefore so is the mindshare. This will help establish a mindshare that UE5 is more of PS5 thing (to the masses anyway)
 

S0ULZB0URNE

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“If they show the ps5 version, then that must mean its better right?”

thats the general point of marketing, to make it look (or sound) better than the other version. Rdr2 technically performs and looks better on xbox one x but the marketing is still with ps4 and therefore so is the mindshare. This will help establish a mindshare that UE5 is more of PS5 thing (to the masses anyway)
But with some of the custom features of the PS5 it does mean better and they chose it for that reason.
 

93xfan

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We will have to see if the custom series X stuff such as BCPack and fast decompression (especially textures), steady SSD speed and CPU clock speed, faster RAM bandwidth will be enough to keep up. There’s also the fast CPU and GPU and some method of only displaying needed parts of textures or some such.

it’s an unknown at this point, but It’s nice that both consoles have done a ton to remove IO bottlenecks.
 
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ZehDon

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You are cutting the corners.

Making something custom and "exotic" does not automatically equal into = must be expensive.

It can be engineered to be cheap or expensive to manufacture. Just like non-custom stuff can be cheap or expensive.

And if/when PS5 sells +100 million consoles like playstations almost always do, it doesnt make it so "exotic" that prices would sky rocket, when they plan their part orders.

Just look at switch, used stock tegra x1 from nvidia, nothing custom or exotic in that, yet switch is expensive and low quality when looking at the price (for 350-400€ launch I would expect better hardware). Would custom chip have been cheaper? maybe, if they got bad deal from nvidia.


I rather take "exotic" new tech than the same with just higher numbers, even if it costs little bit more.

Maybe custom exotic parts add 5-20$ to PS5, that could be a lot in sense of how many they sell, but it is also not much at all when looking it from what they can add with that.
Sorry friend, feels like you're arguing two exclusive points at the same time. You start with "exotic does not equal expensive" and then go on to conclude with "I'll take expensive exotic over bigger numbers". Not really sure what your point is, sorry.
To reiterate my point: exotic tech - that is, tech that is either not widely adopted and/or completely bespoke - is almost always very expensive, relatively speaking. The best example in context is, of course, the Cell Processor in the PS3. Great tech - insanely expensive. So expensive that it nearly killed the entire PlayStation business. However, if that exotic tech then becomes widely adopted, then the cost to produce it comes down because it is no longer exotic. The best example in context of is, of course, the DVD Player in the Playstation 2 - which, at its launch, was brand new exotic tech that then went on to the become the global standard for optical media.
If you believe Sony's engineers have created a storage solution that outpaces high-end PC components, and created a customised IO pipeline to handle the data, all using customised components in combination with a manufacturing process that is resulting in storage that is cheaper, faster and better to produce than all current standards, then you believe Sony have produced a miracle - they've out-engineered entire industries who specialise in only storage. I don't believe that's the case. They've designed a great piece of kit - no arguments there - but they're going to have to pay a good price to produce it because its pretty darn exotic, and only they can use it.
I'll also counter you line "I rather take "exotic" new tech than the same with just higher numbers". Why? New tech for the sake of new is meaningless - either it's an improvement in some capacity, or its pointless. I don't care if the tech in the Series X is an evolution or a revolution - I just care that it enables more and better games for me to play. Why is new tech more important to you than actual improvements?
 
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cyber69

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Sorry friend, feels like you're arguing two exclusive points at the same time. You start with "exotic does not equal expensive" and then go on to conclude with "I'll take expensive exotic over bigger numbers". Not really sure what your point is, sorry.
To reiterate my point: exotic tech - that is, tech that is either not widely adopted and/or completely bespoke - is almost always very expensive, relatively speaking. The best example in context is, of course, the Cell Processor in the PS3. Great tech - insanely expensive. So expensive that it nearly killed the entire PlayStation business. However, if that exotic tech then becomes widely adopted, then the cost to produce it comes down because it is no longer exotic. The best example in context of is, of course, the DVD Player in the Playstation 2 - which, at its launch, was brand new exotic tech that then went on to the become the global standard for optical media.
If you believe Sony's engineers have created a storage solution that outpaces high-end PC components, and created a customised IO pipeline to handle the data, all using customised components in combination with a manufacturing process that is resulting in storage that is cheaper, faster and better to produce than all current standards, then you believe Sony have produced a miracle - they've out-engineered entire industries who specialise in only storage. I don't believe that's the case. They've designed a great piece of kit - no arguments there - but they're going to have to pay a good price to produce it because its pretty darn exotic, and only they can use it.
I'll also counter you line "I rather take "exotic" new tech than the same with just higher numbers". Why? New tech for the sake of new is meaningless - either it's an improvement in some capacity, or its pointless. I don't care if the tech in the Series X is an evolution or a revolution - I just care that it enables more and better games for me to play. Why is new tech more important to you than actual improvements?
Closed box (console) vs open-ended box (PC). They (Sony and Microsoft) can prioritize customization/efficiency without having to worry about segregating a whole user-base. Believe it or not, there are still a large portion of PC users who still have HDD. Most people can't afford highend or even mid range graphic cards let alone the latest processors.

Reference
 
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VysePSU

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Why is this news? Unreal Engines are multiplatform so of course it will run on the Series X.
 

Kazekage1981

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I am going to make a really bold claim:

The UNREAL 5.0 PS5 Tech demo can run on PC and Xbox Series X with same number of triangles and LOD's at true 4K at 30 frames per second AND with Raytracing as it stands TODAY (not with future PC upgrades of SSD's, GPU, CPU, etc).

Because if someone is going to make the claim "It would probably run on Xbox Series X and PC at higher resolution at some arbitrary resolution of 1800p, and with lower number of triangles and LODs" without any receipts to back it up, and using specs of PC GPUS (such as the RTX 2080) to support this hypothesis, then I can make the opposite claim. I stated before that this would be possible with future upgrades such as RDNA3, Ampere, but I was dead wrong because this is moving the goal post, and I am moving it back. My apologies for that.

There I said it, and I am sticking to it. :lollipop_blowing_kiss:

And on top of that, the Unreal 5.0 engine will give great demonstrations of racing, sports, adventure, rpgs, 1st person shooters, etc in the upcoming future for Xbox Series X, PS5, PC and other platforms.
 
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ToadMan

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IMO there are only two logical reasons this could be one Sony made a deal with them or the PS5 is more capable of showing of thier new engine. Microsoft fans will support conclusion one and Playstation fans will support conclusion two.
There is one other possibility - Epic may have concluded that the optimal way to develop multiplats next gen is to target for the PS5 and port to Xsex and other platforms, so that’s where they’ve concentrated their efforts for engine development.

This demo is their “shop window” and they’re showing what the engine can do so we all know what to expect from multi plats going forward.
 

Bernkastel

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This SSD has been analyzed very thoroughly, and there is no special "black technology". Everything is the result of a special adaptation for the scene of the game console. In theory, the cost is not high, and it may even be better than The SSD cost of the Xbox Series X is even lower.

That's right, more than twice the speed, but in theory the cost is still low, why?

Because the SSD's main control is actually very cheap, the main function is to differentiate pricing for manufacturers. In fact, the high-end main control takes the price of the goods and the low-end main control is not much different. However, good horses and good saddles, high-end SSDs on PCs often have to be paired with a small DDR cache to store the address lookup table (LUT), and that's it.

If you want to use a pile of 64GB of flash memory to build a 1TB hard drive, you can use 16 channels, each channel put a piece of flash memory, so the fastest speed, 16x64GB = 1024GB, and then we can be regarded as 16X.

The PS5 is such a design, 12 channels, each channel 64GB, 12x64 = 768GB. Converted from 1024 to 1000 is 825G. The speed is regarded as 12X.

XSX has only 4 channels, but each channel can stack multiple chips, so 4x4x64GB = 1024GB, but only 4X speed. So if you look at the original speed, 5.5GB / s vs 2.4GB / s, which is about 2.3 times the gap. Why not 3 times? Because 64GB of flash memory does not run on a single channel, multiple chips will use the channel bandwidth more completely when stacked.

This is why the 8-channel E16 main control of the group can run to 5GB / s, while the 12-channel main control of the PS5 can only run to 5.5GB / s. In fact, the incomplete utilization of channel bandwidth by a single flash memory causes a certain amount of waste.

Of course, there is another possibility that the MT / s per channel value of the PS5 main control may be lower. In other words, the upper limit of the speed of each channel on the main control is lower, but this just saves money ...

===================================

The main control of PS5 is DRAM-LESS, which is also critical because it saves money.

Sony uses a large data block to reduce the total amount of block addresses, thereby reducing the size of the LUT table mentioned above from the usual GB level to the current KB level, so it can be installed in a small SRAM cache, which saves I lost 1GB of DRAM. Don't underestimate this 1GB DRAM, the total of zero zero is reflected in the total cost, and it can save almost a dozen dollars.

Memory access is simplified by address + offset. The map you use in your daily life will only show the XX building, not the XX room XX in the XX building, right? In the traditional PC SSD, the address table is equivalent to a map accurate to the XX floor, while the PS5 address table is equivalent to a map accurate to the XX cell. So obviously, the map of PS5 will be much smaller and easier to fit in your pocket.

Then, the rest is the offset. For ordinary PC, it is room XX, XX, and for PS5, it is room XX, XX building XX building ... However, this has little effect on the reading speed.

While writing, you can think of it as a fire drill. The writing of the PC is the fire drill by the people of "XX Building XX Building XX", while the writing of the PS5 is the fire drill by the people of "XX Community" In other words, the latter is more laborious. However, the impact on the game console scene is not great.

Therefore, a design like PS5 is not only more expensive than XSX, but it is also likely to be cheaper than XSX SSD. Because the capacity of the hard disk is smaller, you can spend less than 4 flash memory. Four 64GB flash memories are a lot of money, which is much more expensive than a higher-end SSD master ...

====================================

As for how to treat it? Quite simply, Sony's design goal is to save money, not (higher than competitors) high performance. High performance is just a matter of doing it. As mentioned earlier, you have saved 1/4 of the capacity, and the cost is much lower. If you don't add any more, won't you be killed by the player? So I did such a thing. It was more expensive to switch channels, but it wasn't much expensive. It wasn't the main control of the cost, and that's all.

The bandwidth required by the graphics card for page swapping is under the current GDDR6 bandwidth level. Unless it is deliberately forced, there cannot be a scenario where SSDs above 2GB / s cannot be satisfied. In the normal game scene, most things should be in video memory and memory. Only in extreme cases (such as spaceships performing jumps) will mass exchanges be required. However, even if it is a mass exchange, 5.5GB / s SSD can't open the gap with 2.4GB / s SSD, because the entire memory space used for the game is only about 13GB, and a large amount of it will be stored in memory There is no need to exchange the items in it. Actually, there will be at most swap GB. You can't design a scene for the player to jump back and forth in order to use this 5.5GB / s. Do you want the player to trigger photosensitive flicker epilepsy ((

In addition, Virtual Geometry and Virtual Texture are essentially materials in picture format (VG is a geometric model saved in picture format). There are a lot of very efficient compression algorithms that can be directly addressed. This is also for both Mao PS5 and XSX. A hardware decompression chip is added, which can not only release the CPU, but also realize ultra-low latency material exchange. What do you mean, usually you use WinRAR to decompress the 1024 younger sister files in a package are made with CPU, and now with hardware, not only high bandwidth but low latency (and the delay is estimated and predictable, which is stable The number of frames is very important!) In addition, you can also directly access the corresponding younger sister without having to fully decompress. So Sony said that this is revolutionary for console game development, because rounding this is the virtual memory used by the game royal friends. It can be directly addressed, and the delay can be expected, which means that developers with brains can directly access almost any material they need at any time, and they can do a lot of access in advance, which largely hides the delay (although Not all).

=====================================

Next, answer the specific questions of the subject:

Will the memory advancement of the next generation become a bottleneck if it is small?

meeting. This problem will be more obvious in the light chase scene. Whether it is light chase, 4K, 60-120fps or noise reduction, which one is not a big video memory owner? All are memory destroyers. 448GB / s, 560GB / s, to a certain extent, has already set the upper limit of the next generation game memory access capacity. The gain of SSD is only capacity, not bandwidth.

We know that streaming technologies such as megatexture and virtual texture can save a lot of memory, but the bottleneck is hard disk IO, so can hard disk IO with ps5 up to 8-9GB / s solve this bottleneck?

This depends on how you define the bottleneck. The original Mega Texture and the current virtual texture streaming were two dishes in one dish. The bottleneck can be said to be the hard disk IO, not to mention the 8-9GB / s hard disk, even the 1GB / s hard disk is enough. Even if you have a SATA 3 SSD, you wo n’t see anything you ca n’t load in most games. Because the biggest bottleneck of virtual texture streaming is [random read and write speed], this is why games with linear levels generally use virtual textures casually, and you ca n’t see the card loading. Because linear levels are rarely read randomly, and open world games are different, a large number of random reads will instantly drag the entire game. On the other hand, both PC and PS4 use the CPU to decompress and read, so a lot of reading will also drag the CPU and cause unstable frame generation.

Of course, the above-mentioned violence theory is for PC 1440P and the following scenes. When it reaches 4K, it will rise appropriately> 2 times. However, the next generation is starting at 2.4GB / s, and there is hardware decompression, which can be said to have solved the problem perfectly at a certain cost.

Can such a high-speed SSD help improve the performance of the picture, thereby making up for the shortcomings of 15% of the floating point performance of Microsoft's xsx?

No, the picture performance improvement depends on the bandwidth of the entire data path. On the surface, PS5 is only "2TFlops lower" in floating-point performance, but if you look at the essence:
  1. The memory bandwidth is 25% less, and the difference is 112GB / s, which is more scary than 9GB / s. Of course, I am just scaring you (escape
  2. WGP-level caches such as LDS and L0 are 44% less, and L2 is 25% less. L1 is uncertain but should be less (otherwise XSX will easily feed the CU). For scenes like GPUs, the size of the cache is far more important than the frequency. The RTX 2070 Super is 40 SMs, 1.77GHz, but it ’s still the same as lifting 40 CUs, 1.9GHz 5700XT (Of course, this is just an analogy used to scare you. In fact, Turing efficiency is the same as Teraflops There are many factors that are higher than RDNA1. One of the main factors is that the data path of the N card is actually more efficient, and the buffer size allocated to each stream processor is more solid than the RDNA1 graphics card.) In the words of lazy people, to a certain extent, the performance gain brought by the increase in cache capacity is much greater than the frequency increase. Because your cache at the same level is faster, at most twice as fast as others? However, the time overhead caused by each slow external access is more than ten times the normal cache access (
  3. Now you should be able to understand why the demo of UE5 can only run to 1440P 30FPS. Because whether it is Nanite or Lumen, it actually eats more video memory bandwidth (rather than video memory capacity), or more, the GPU's ability to use video memory.
Overall, the data path bandwidth of XSX from memory to CU is much higher (between 25-50%, depending on the specific scenario), but even then I do n’t think XSX can run UE5 ’s demo at 4K 60FPS. Because the essence of this Demo is to show "you can see that I can make such a thing without good optimization", not "you see me this thing is very good than other things. Especially Lumen, Lumen is actually SSGI + coarse mode reflection + sparse voxel tracking GI, Lumen's coarse mode reflection and voxel tracking part is not actually implemented with light chasing acceleration hardware, completely do not understand why, do not know API Not ready or Epic has personality, anyway, DXR can accelerate voxel tracking. Anyway, it's fascinating. Is it better to save the performance and improve the resolution?

Another example is that Nanite does not use Mesh Shader, of course, this is also expected, after all, PS5 is nothing like this. XSX's geometric performance is much higher than 2080Ti under good optimization. After using mesh, 2080Ti can actually render 50M + triangles and people still> 30fps. Nanite said in this demo that it actually renders triangles around 20M and still 30fps. It's embarrassing:

Mesh Shader running at 2080Ti, 45fps, 48M real drawn triangle, 4K resolution

If it is reduced to 20M solid-drawn triangle like UE5 Demo, or to 1440P, it can save a lot of resources for pixel shading and improve performance. Rounding up> 60fps is no problem (

As I said before, I once again confirmed that PS5 does not support Mesh Shader. The geometric performance is still limited by Primitive Shader with insufficient parallelism.

So do n’t have too high expectations for things that save money as the main design purpose, so it is not good for fans or manufacturers. . . If in the end it's really 399, isn't it really fragrant ...
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This SSD has been thoroughly analyzed, and there is no particular "black tech", everything is specifically adapted to the console scene results, in theory, the cost is not high, or even more likely than the Xbox Series X SSD cost.

Yes, more than twice the speed, but in theory the cost is low, why?

Because SSD's main control is actually very cheap, the main role is to give manufacturers to distinguish pricing, in fact, high-end master take the price and low-end master control is not a few dollars. However, a good horse with a good saddle, the PC high-end SSD often with a small DDR cache to store the address finder table (LUT), and so is it.

If you want to build a 1TB hard drive with a pile of 64GB of flash memory, you can use 16 channels, one piece of flash per channel, so the fastest, 16x64GB s 1024GB, and then the speed we can put as 16X.

The PS5 is such a design, with 12 channels, 64GB per channel, 12x64 x 768GB. From 1024 to 1000 that is 825G. Speed is considered 12X.

XSX only has 4 channels, but each channel can be stacked with multiple chips, so it's 4x4x64GB . . . 1024GB, but only 4X speed. So if you look at the original speed, 5.5GB/s vs 2.4GB/s, about 2.3 times the difference. Why not three times? Because 64GB of flash running is not satisfied with a single channel, the channel bandwidth utilization is more complete when multiple chips are stacked.

This is also why the group's 8-channel E16 master can run to 5GB/s of reading, while the PS5's 12-channel master can only run to 5.5GB/s. In fact, incomplete utilization of channel bandwidth for a single flash resulted in a degree of waste.

Of course, there is another possibility that the MT/s per channel value of the PS5 master may be lower, in other words, the speed limit of each channel on the master is lower, but this saves money...

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The PS5's masterised is DRAM-LESS, which is also critical because of the savings.

Sony uses large blocks of data to reduce the total block address size, thus reducing the size of the LUT table as mentioned earlier from the usual GB to the current KB level, so that it can be installed in a small SRAM cache, thus saving 1GB of DRAM money. Don't look down on this 1GB DRAM, zero total reflected in the total cost, almost can save a dozen knives.

The simplicity of the visit is through the address plus offset. The map you use in your daily life will show only XX Building, not XX Building XX Room XX, will it? Traditional PC SSD, address table is equivalent to a map accurate to the XX floor, and PS5 address table is equivalent to a map to xx district accurate. So obviously, the PS5 map will be much smaller and easier to put into the pocket.

The rest, then, is the offset. For ordinary PC is XX ROOM XX, AND FOR PS5 IS XX BUILDING XX FLOOR XX ROOM XX ... However, this has little effect on read speed.

While writing, you can think of it as a fire drill. PC's writing is "by XX District XX Building XX Building" people unified fire drills, and PS5 writing is "by XX District" people unified fire drills. In other words, the latter is more labor-conscious. But it's not a big influence on the console scene.

So the PS5's design is not more expensive than the XSX, but is likely to be a little cheaper than xSX's SSD. Because the hard drive is smaller, you can spend four less flash memory. Four 64GB flash memory is a big deal, much more expensive than a higher-end SSD master...

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As for what to think? Quite simply, Sony's design goal is to save money, not to achieve higher performance than its competitors. High performance is just the way it is done. As said before, you have saved 1/4 of the capacity, the cost is also much lower, if not add edgy, will not be sprayed by the player? So did such a thing, change the channel more points but actually not much expensive and the root is not the main cost of the main control, that's all.

The bandwidth required for page switching of the graphics card is not possible to meet the situation of SSD s2GB/s unless it is deliberately forced. In a typical game scenario, most things should be in memory and memory, and only in extreme cases (such as a ship jumping) will require massive exchanges. But even if it is a massive exchange, 5.5GB/s SSD can not and 2.4GB/s SSD to open the gap, because the entire memory space used for the game is only about 13GB, which has a large number of things stored in memory do not need to exchange, the actual maximum swap will be a GB. Can't you design a scene to make the player jump back and forth in order to fill this 5.5GB/s, do you want the player to trigger the light-sensitive flashepilepsy (((

In addition, Virtual Geometry, Virtual Texture these things are essentially picture format footage (VG is a geometric model saved in the picture format), there are a large number of very efficient, and directly addressed compression algorithms, which also for the gross PS5 and XSX have added a hardware decompression chip, not only to release the CPU, but also to achieve ultra-low latency material exchange. What does it mean, usually you use WinRAR to unzip 1024 little sister files in a package are made with CPU, and now do with hardware not only high bandwidth and low latency (and the delay can be estimated, predictable, which is critical to the stable number of frames!) ), also can also go hand in direct access to the corresponding small sister, do not need to fully unzip. So Sony says it's revolutionary for console game development, because rounding it is game-free virtual memory ah friends. Direct addressing, and the latency can be expected, meaning that a braindeveloper can have direct access to almost any material they need at any time, and can pre-empt a large amount of access, largely hiding the delay (though not all).

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Next, answer the question's specific question:

Will the small progress of memory in the next generation be a bottleneck?

Yes. This problem is even more obvious in the light-chasing scene. Light chase is also good, 4K is also good, 60-120fps is also good, noise reduction is also good, which is not a large memory? It's all memory bandwidth destroyers. 448GB/s, 560GB/s, to some extent, has been set the upper limit of next-generation game access. The gain of the SSD is limited to capacity, not bandwidth.

We know that megatexture, virtual texture and other streaming technology can save a lot of memory, but the bottleneck lies in the hard disk IO, then the ps5 up to 8-9GB/s hard disk IO can solve this bottleneck?

It depends on how you define the bottleneck. Mega Texture and now the virtual texture streaming is a dish two, the bottleneck can be said to be the hard disk IO, not to mention 8-9GB/s hard drive, even if it is 1GB/s hard drive is enough. Even if you have a SSD for SATA 3, you won't see anything that can't be loaded in most games. Because the biggest bottleneck of virtual texture streaming is "random reading and writing speed", which is why the game of linear levels are generally casually used virtual texture, you can not see the card loading. Because linear levels are rarely read randomly, and open-world games are different, a large number of random reads instantly drags down the entire game. On the other hand, both the PC and PS4 use the CPU to extract the read, so a large number of reads can also drag the CPU to cause frame generation instability.

Of course, the above-mentioned tyrannical theory is directed at PC 1440P and the following scenarios. At 4K, it will be appropriate to float up to 2 times. However, the next generation is 2.4GB/s start, and hardware decompression, it can be said that has been at a certain cost to solve the problem perfectly.

Can such a high-speed SSD help improve picture performance and make up for microsoft's xsx 15% of floating-point performance?

No, the picture performance boosts the bandwidth that depends on the entire data path. On the face of it, the PS5 is only "2TFlops" lower in floating-point performance, but if you look at the essence:
  1. The memory bandwidth is 25% less, the difference is 112GB/s, this number can be more scary than 9GB/s, of course, I am just scare you (escape)
  2. WGP-level caches such as LDS and L0 are 44% less, L2 is 25%, and L1 is uncertain but should be less (otherwise XSX will easily feed the CU). For a GPU scenario, the size of the cache is far more important than frequency. The RTX 2070 Super is 40 SMs, 1.77GHz, not the same as lifting 40 Cu, 1.9GHz 5700XT hammer (which, of course, is just a analogy to scare you. In fact, Turing has a lot more of the higher rDNA1 factor than the RDNA1 in comparison to Teraflops, one of the main factors being that the N-card's data path is actually more efficient, with a cache size that is more solid for each stream processor than the RDNA1 graphics card). In lazy words, the performance gains from the increase in the size of the cache capacity are much greater than the frequency increases to a certain extent. Because you're faster at the same level, at most, twice the speed of someone else? But the time overhead of each reprieve is more than ten times that of access within a normal cache (
  3. Now you should be able to understand why UE5 this Demo can only run to 1440P 30FPS. Because whether it's Nanite or Lumen, it actually eats more memory bandwidth (rather than memory capacity) and more cpus use of memory.
Overall, XSX's data path bandwidth from memory to CU is too high (between 25-50%, depending on the scenario), but even then I don't think XSX can run UE5 demo 4K 60FPS. Because the essence of this Demo is to show that "you see I can make such a shy thing without good optimization" instead of "You see i'm more shy than anything else". In particular, Lumen, Lumen is actually SSGI and coarse-mode reflection and sparse-based carnitin tracking GI, Lumen's crude-mode reflection and carnouscan tracking part is not actually using light to speed up hardware to achieve, completely do not understand why, do not know is API is not ready or Epic has personality, anyway, DXR can accelerate the hormone tracking. In short, very crazy. It's not good to save point performance to improve point resolution (

Nanite, for example, is not mesh Shader, of course, this is also to be expected after all PS5 moed this thing. XSX's geometric performance is much higher than 2080Ti under the optimized condition, and 2080 Timesh can actually render the triangle of 50M plus and people are still 30fps, Nanite in this demo is actually rendering about 20M triangle sand and 30fps, which is very embarrassing:


2080 Ti Run Mesh Shader, 45fps, 48M real-painted triangle, 4K resolution

If you drop down to a 20M painted triangle like the UE5 Demo, or down to 1440P, you can save a lot of resources for pixel shading, which can improve performance. Rounding 60fps is no problem (

As I've said before, this proves once again that PS5 does n'go of Mesh Shader. Geometric performance is still limited by The precision of parallelism, Primitive Shader.

So don't expect too much of what's the main design purpose of saving money, either for fans or for the manufacturer... In case the last real 399, is not really fragrant ...
 

RaySoft

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I've said this multiple times a long time already...
The "magic" isn't in the m2 SSD in itself, it's the custom blocks on the APU that's the real star of the show here.
So Sony don't have to buy super-high-end nands, they can use already available chips, and they've made their own custom implementations inside every APU, so no need for their SSD solution to cost more than a regular M2.
 

OSC

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Mesh Shader running at 2080Ti, 45fps, 48M real drawn triangle, 4K resolution

If it is reduced to 20M solid-drawn triangle like UE5 Demo, or to 1440P, it can save a lot of resources for pixel shading and improve performance. Rounding up> 60fps is no problem (

As I said before, I once again confirmed that PS5 does not support Mesh Shader. The geometric performance is still limited by Primitive Shader with insufficient parallelism.
This is the critical part. I don't think we can say ps5 does not support mesh shaders, and that primitive shaders are just not a renaming of the same concept.

Mesh shaders are said to have functionality similar to vector units in ps2. Vector units can more than likely handle virtual triangles. If primitive shaders are the same thing under a different name, then it is conceivable they are processing the billions of virtual triangles of nanite, and that is why we see lower rasterized triangles. Part of their performance is drained from the billions of triangles processing.
Brian Karis. "As a result, we've been able to leave hardware rasterisers in the dust at this specific task. Software rasterisation is a core component of Nanite that allows it to achieve what it does. We can't beat hardware rasterisers in all cases though so we'll use hardware when we've determined it's the faster path. On PlayStation 5 we use primitive shaders for that path which is considerably faster than using the old pipeline we had before with vertex shaders." -eurogamer
We'd have to ask Brian Karis to clarify this quote. By all cases he could mean against all hardware, primitive shaders or mesh shaders might be faster than their software solution.
 
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Shmunter

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As Epic stated in the interview with Geoff Keighley the demo will run on other systems but with less detail.

My take is that the Series X version could even run at higher resolution than the PS5 one but with less polygonal detail.
 
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Shmunter

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UE5 was just the Entrée for PS5. The main meal will be first party, pushing the hardware to the max. And then doubling that max. I know it, you know it, we all know it.

The very specific design of the PS5 is no accident. Every Tom, Dick and Harry want Epic to come out and say the demo can run on their hardware, nay.....pleading, hoping for a glimmer of validity. Maybe Epic simply doesn’t want to shatter their hopes and dreams and the less said the better.

Lol, I kid, I kid.....Or am I.......
 

Thirty7ven

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UE5 was just the Entrée for PS5. The main meal will be first party, pushing the hardware to the max. And then doubling that max. I know it, you know it, we all know it.

The very specific design of the PS5 is no accident. Every Tom, Dick and Harry want Epic to come out and say the demo can run on their hardware, nay.....pleading, hoping for a glimmer of validity. Maybe Epic simply doesn’t want to shatter their hopes and dreams and the less said the better.

Lol, I kid, I kid.....Or am I.......
Since the PS3 days Sony created ICE, and since the PS3 days Playstation Studios really increased their stature and are now industry renowned for a reason. That Playstation can have a guy like Mark Cerny who has a deep background in game development, spitballing ideas about the future of console hardware and game development with the likes of ICE and all their studios, along with EPIC and probably other high profile names... This has to amount to something.
 
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