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Analysis Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5

scydrex

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Damn they are actually improving their compression on PS5. The last update for comparison.

Update 1.1.2
19GB on Series X to 11GB on PS5

Update 1.3.0
23GB on Series X to 6.85GB on PS5
 

TheFawz

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One thing that isn't necessarily evident from comparing user facing build install file sizes between PlayStation and Xbox is the SKU split, whereas generally PlayStation platforms have a higher breakdown due to their regional set-up and so you end up with small file size per build due to Languages being split across a bigger spread of SKUs (SIEA, SIEE & SIEA-BR are common ones) while Xbox generally has less (Most are WW and at most some are WW and BR). This isn't as bad with PS5 with Sony now allowing for merged SKUs in a single binary but it's still at thing
 
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Allandor

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THat shouldn't be, PC doesn't have this magic compression hardware, right? That's less than the PS5.
PC has something even better. CPU cores, the game seems not to really need ;)
CPU decompression can be much more size-efficient than hardware-decompression, it might just need a little bit longer. So with software decompression you can always use what is most optimal for your data. Therefore hardware-decompression has the advantage not to use the cpu at all, but is more or less fixed on the algorithm side.

Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. But that is also why there is not hardware-decompression on CPUs these days, as those algorithms come and go with the time and as soon the algorithm is optimized just a bit, the hardware-blocks can no longer be used. So on the PC you will always just see software-decompression (on the CPU or the GPU). Only in really, really rare special cases a hardware decompression block makes sense in PCs/workstations/servers. For a closed system like a console, hardware-decompression is normally the optimal choice ... but might not be so great for future backwards compatibility as the hardware might be changed and might be incompatible in the next-gen hardware because of more optimized algorithms in hardware.
 
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Fafalada

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Jun 22, 2004
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Im completely confused and mind blown at the valhalla stuff. so the patch is 6GB on ps5 and 23GB on xbox?
MS patch-systems on XBL have been a pile of #### for the past decade or so. Sony ones weren't 'much' better - but they at least made it possible to create efficient patches without having to PhD in their patch system (still far too much manual intervention and room for error that shouldn't exist - but... baby steps I guess).
 
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Well, background images... The 3D model textures weren't that impressive! Actually, were there any at all, or was it all just colored flat-shaded polygons?
You are mostly right, the characters polygons were gouraud shaded and the backgrounds were textured even in FF VII.

The N64 was still pretty bad with textures.
Good luck with that.

Unless oodler starts to move those tasks towards the GPU, oodle seems like a nich for console exclusive games.
Isn't what he described what MS are promising with dx-12 ultimate?
 
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Allandor

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That's FUD. The size is much smaller because PS5 uses a much smaller packages so only the changed packages have to be in the patch. While XSX version contains the XB1, XB1X and XSX packages of the game. Could also be much smaller if there would be a complete different build for that game on XSX. Common sense should already tell you that. A compression tech that is more efficient does not lead to ~10x smaller packages. It is the packaging itself that is different here.
It is much to early to compare such games. First we need games that have native versions for both platforms that are not working on the old consoles. Than we might see some real world differences.
It might even need much longer on xbox to get smaller packages sizes because of PC compatibility. If a build can run on PC and xbox, why should the developer invest time into the process if it already works well ;)
 

Tripolygon

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While XSX version contains the XB1, XB1X and XSX packages of the game. Could also be much smaller if there would be a complete different build for that game on XSX.
First we need games that have native versions for both platforms that are not working on the old consoles.
It might even need much longer on xbox to get smaller packages sizes because of PC compatibility. If a build can run on PC and xbox, why should the developer invest time into the process if it already works well ;)
Not saying you are entirely wrong about it not just being compression that makes the package difference but.
1. The XB1 has a different package than XSX/S.
2. XSX and PS5 have native versions that don't work on old consoles
3. PC games don't run on XSX nor PS5 even though technically they run on the same game engine but packaged differently for each console.
 

Tommi84

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While XSX version contains the XB1, XB1X and XSX packages of the game.
Why is it required to download ALL those versions when someone only has XSX? I know, I know... smart delivery. As a consumer, I care about the end result. And the result is PS5 download is 3GB, and XSX is 40GB so it would be a matter of playing the game today or in two days time. Especially when you see there's a XB1 version of the package to download.
 
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Sosokrates

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Seems a bit biased to assume PS5 games will have better assets.
There are many other factors that needed to be considered such as, seriesX could have bigger file size, SFS, ram bandwidth etc.
It seems the better compression stack of PS5 will result in smaller file sizes. We dont know which multiplat will have better "assets". Pixel quality also comes into play, the X1X version of RDR2 appeared to have better textures in some instances compared to the PS4 pro, but it turned out the higher resolution gave certain textures a higher quality appearance.
 
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Allandor

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Not saying you are entirely wrong about it not just being compression that makes the package difference but.
1. The XB1 has a different package than XSX/S.
2. XSX and PS5 have native versions that don't work on old consoles
3. PC games don't run on XSX nor PS5 even though technically they run on the same game engine but packaged differently for each console.
1. The XB1 Version has just the XB1 packages, the XB1X Version has the XB1 + the addition XB1X packages and the XSX adds on that. That's why the game get's bigger and bigger with every package.
2. XSX has addition resources and code-path to run on the XSX but still has the resources of the older generation. In most cases you can copy the game over to a HDD, go to your XB1 and play the game without any additional download (maybe license)
3. Yes you can't run PC games on XB directly, but the code (expect for the "executable") is the same. DX11/12 code that runs on PC also runs on XB, so the packages remain more or less the same. In the end the build-pipeline will be the same where it is not needed to fix a problem.

Why is it required to download ALL those versions when someone only has XSX? I know, I know... smart delivery. As a consumer, I care about the end result. And the result is PS5 download is 3GB, and XSX is 40GB so it would be a matter of playing the game today or in two days time. Especially when you see there's a XB1 version of the package to download.
Smartdelivery is only as good as the developer behind the game ;). If the developer goes the easy route (and I don't know why they shouldn't) they make it like I described in No1. Just additional packages for additional consoles. They could also make completely different packages, but so far not many games did that. For the developer this is just extra work to gain ... well nothing from a performance perspective. The use has just to download more, so nothing that has to be changed (never change a running system (or build-pipeline in that case).

If I remember correctly e.g. Gears 5 has different packages for the different systems. Size was cut in half on XBSX and XBSS. One of the first titles (on xbox) where we can see what a different packaging process can do. But I guess it is still a long road to optimize package sizes. PS5 with it's one console API is much further ahead with this.

It seems the better compression stack of PS5 will result in smaller file sizes. We dont know which multiplat will have better "assets". Pixel quality also comes into play, the X1X version of RDR2 appeared to have better textures in some instances compared to the PS4 pro, but it turned out the higher resolution gave certain textures a higher quality appearance.
RDR2 on PS4 Pro had much worse issues with the really bad cb implementation. I really don't know why they never really fixed that, because it give the game such a blurry look and texture detail went down with it.
 
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DJ Shalad

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Why is it required to download ALL those versions when someone only has XSX? I know, I know... smart delivery. As a consumer, I care about the end result. And the result is PS5 download is 3GB, and XSX is 40GB so it would be a matter of playing the game today or in two days time. Especially when you see there's a XB1 version of the package to download.
You Got It Agree GIF

While XSX version contains the XB1, XB1X and XSX packages of the game.
And the xcloud version as well ..

Happy Very Funny GIF by Disney Zootopia
mortals GIF
 

Bo_Hazem

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I wonder if someone knows what lossless compression and it's limitations are, lol.

You need lossless compression for the whole package: Game logic, audio, etc. Lossy works great for graphical assets as the quality hit is usually minor, and it's usually fixed and pre-compressed before going to Kraken/ZLIB.
 

Heisenberg007

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While XSX version contains the XB1, XB1X and XSX packages of the game.
That's ... not true. Why would it do that? That's not very "smart". The following is from Xbox's official website.



Notice that it says that Smart Delivery detects what system you're on and only installs that version. If you have an Xbox One version, it does not "add on". It replaces that backward compatible version.
 
Jan 20, 2018
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You need lossless compression for the whole package: Game logic, audio, etc. Lossy works great for graphical assets as the quality hit is usually minor, and it's usually fixed and pre-compressed before going to Kraken/ZLIB.
I know that but it seems someone makes unrealistic assumptions about lossless compression and it's abilities.
 
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Sosokrates

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1. The XB1 Version has just the XB1 packages, the XB1X Version has the XB1 + the addition XB1X packages and the XSX adds on that. That's why the game get's bigger and bigger with every package.
2. XSX has addition resources and code-path to run on the XSX but still has the resources of the older generation. In most cases you can copy the game over to a HDD, go to your XB1 and play the game without any additional download (maybe license)
3. Yes you can't run PC games on XB directly, but the code (expect for the "executable") is the same. DX11/12 code that runs on PC also runs on XB, so the packages remain more or less the same. In the end the build-pipeline will be the same where it is not needed to fix a problem.


Smartdelivery is only as good as the developer behind the game ;). If the developer goes the easy route (and I don't know why they shouldn't) they make it like I described in No1. Just additional packages for additional consoles. They could also make completely different packages, but so far not many games did that. For the developer this is just extra work to gain ... well nothing from a performance perspective. The use has just to download more, so nothing that has to be changed (never change a running system (or build-pipeline in that case).

If I remember correctly e.g. Gears 5 has different packages for the different systems. Size was cut in half on XBSX and XBSS. One of the first titles (on xbox) where we can see what a different packaging process can do. But I guess it is still a long road to optimize package sizes. PS5 with it's one console API is much further ahead with this.


RDR2 on PS4 Pro had much worse issues with the really bad cb implementation. I really don't know why they never really fixed that, because it give the game such a blurry look and texture detail went down with it.

I wonder if it looked worse then the native resolution the checkerboard solution was reconstructing from.
 

Allandor

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That's ... not true. Why would it do that? That's not very "smart". The following is from Xbox's official website.



Notice that it says that Smart Delivery detects what system you're on and only installs that version. If you have an Xbox One version, it does not "add on". It replaces that backward compatible version.
Man, must we really discuss such basics here? Smartdelivery does not do anything automatically (from a developer-perspective). It is up to the developer how this is implemented. Just like on xb1x-patches it were additional packages (addons if you want). But the developer can also decide that every system (xb1, xb1x, xsx, xss, pc) gets it completely unique package. But most times it is just an addon. This is why the games sizes increase so much but not on native ps5 titles. Yes the kraken compression is a bit better but the real difference currently is just the packaging.
And as I already wrote, you can copy many games from an XSX to HDD go with that HDD to an xb1 and play the game without any big downloads.
 
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Panajev2001a

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I think you are fighting at best or trying to stir shit at worst over the wrong item. You are focusing on how fast the data decompressed with one algorithm vs another and I think you are trying to make it a the console war angle which feels quite odd.

That number you referenced compared zlib decompression vs kraken decompression, ask RAD Game Tools for their internal benchmarks. What matters for the consoles is the latency and throughout the two console makers were able to achieve and we have discussed over those two numbers ad nauseam. I do not think we need the n-th “console A cannot possibly be in any way not superior item by item to console B, so console B strengths must be overrated, faked, not usable, etc… so I can reconcile with the marketing that lead me to think console A was a monster that would have trounced console B and its non fixed clocks”.
 

Riky

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That's ... not true. Why would it do that? That's not very "smart". The following is from Xbox's official website.



Notice that it says that Smart Delivery detects what system you're on and only installs that version. If you have an Xbox One version, it does not "add on". It replaces that backward compatible version.
Not true in every case, easily tested by downloading Sea Of Thieves onto an external, the single file works on Xbox One, X, Series S and Series X.
 
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Jemm

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Not true in every case, easily tested by downloading Sea Of Thieves onto an external, the single file works on Xbox One, X, Series S and Series X.
Doesn't it depend on which console you download it? If you download it to the external with XSX, it will download SoT with XSX assets.

If you download it first with XSS, it'll download less assets and XSX assets only when you connect the external to the XSX.
 

Riky

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Doesn't it depend on which console you download it? If you download it to the external with XSX, it will download SoT with XSX assets.

If you download it first with XSS, it'll download less assets and XSX assets only when you connect the external to the XSX.

No.

You can move the game around with the external or the storage card, I've got all four versions and just move the drive around, it plays with no problem.
 

Jemm

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No.

You can move the game around with the external or the storage card, I've got all four versions and just move the drive around, it plays with no problem.
According to one tester, there's a size difference between the versions:

Some games have more notable differences. Gears 5, for one, is 71.2GB on the Series X but just 55.1GB on the Series S. For Sea of Thieves, there’s an ocean of difference: 46.6GB and 17GB, respectively.
Edit: Source

That's why I asked where you installed it first. It won't delete the extra data, when you swap to a "lesser" console, but obtain the missing data, when needed.
 
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Riky

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According to one tester, there's a size difference between the versions:


That's why I asked where you installed it first. It won't delete the extra data, when you swap to a "lesser" console, but obtain the missing data, when needed.

It depends on the game like I said, take Resident Evil 8, you can move it on a storage card between the consoles, or MCC you can move between all four, it doesn't download anything extra.
Only shrinkable games are different sizes and there are not many of them.