Latest Speculation from "known sources" points to Navi(GPU in next-gen consoles) having issues.

Xyphie

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Vega 20 is really power efficient at 1.4-1.5GHz (~150W) but once you go up to ~1.8GHz it turns into a ~300W card and I expect Navi 10 to basically have a similar frequency/power curve given it's made on the same node with the same architecture. This is why I expect next-gen console to be more like ~11TFLOPS than the 13-14 many are hoping for, it's just not worth it increasing the power consumption of the console by 2x just to get negligible performance increase.
 
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Panajev2001a

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Vega 20 is really power efficient at 1.4-1.5GHz (~150W) but once you go up to ~1.8GHz it turns into a ~300W card and I expect Navi 10 to basically have a similar frequency/power curve given it's made on the same node with the same architecture. This is why I expect next-gen console to be more like ~11TFLOPS than the 13-14 many are hoping for, it's just not worth it increasing the power consumption of the console by 2x just to get negligible performance increase.
That sounds like their design could only increase frequency by cranking voltage up and that will help your power draw grow quadratically.
 
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Panajev2001a

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RT support yes, that litterly can mean anything. PS5 going to have 8k support aswell.
Sure, it could mean many things. Still, we have a credible rumor, hard evidence, and a sensible theory too. Even nVIDIA will move to generalise RT support beyond dedicated cores... btw, some people are looking for RTX cores to do work beyond RT... with RTX we have a bit of a hardwired implementation of some acceleration of particular pieces of a RT pipeline, not too dissimilar from the days before Unified Shaders... not having the same mindshare and market share as nVIDIA on PC, albeit they do rule the consoles space, it would be sensible for them to get any funding and help they can to leapfrog the competition into iteration 0.5 of the next stage of unified shader cores (now RT enhanced). Essentially looking at their architecture from top to bottom, think about the RT graphics and hybrid pipelines are going, and adapt their graphics architecture to remove bottlenecks and identify the MVP features that ought to be accelerated with the smallest possible fixed function HW and work on inserting that (with an eye towards how that fixed function HW can be reused).

In short, do not hardcode a specific algorithm on a chip, focus on what raytracing in general may need to run efficiently and how to maximise overall chip throughput.
 
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Freeman454

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True, but for now dedicated HW is much faster. No RT hw in consoles might mean they are quite limited in RT. Its a new tech also so its no suprise.
 

MadYarpen

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Im waiting for Navi to upgrade, if it sucks i just get a RTX 2060 along with Zen 2 CPU
In my case it wouldn't make to much sense, I have RX580 at the moment. So a substantial upgrade would be 2070 I guess? Anyway, we will see. Maybe it will be relatively cheap and higher models will offer some performance after all.
 

bitbydeath

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True, but for now dedicated HW is much faster. No RT hw in consoles might mean they are quite limited in RT. Its a new tech also so its no suprise.
It obviously has dedicated hardware, hence why it was stated. PS3 did Ray Tracing on software.
 
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xool

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Vega 20 is really power efficient at 1.4-1.5GHz (~150W) but once you go up to ~1.8GHz it turns into a ~300W card and I expect Navi 10 to basically have a similar frequency/power curve given it's made on the same node with the same architecture. This is why I expect next-gen console to be more like ~11TFLOPS than the 13-14 many are hoping for, it's just not worth it increasing the power consumption of the console by 2x just to get negligible performance increase.
Yes - Navi is still the same ISA and I don't see whatever tweaks made to Vega changing the power usage per TF majorly .. Vega VII consistently pulls 300W+ on its own running games .. even the mighty OG PS3 only had a 380W powersupply - and pulled around 200W 'peak' .. unless the PS5 is the size of a 1970s VCR this isn't going to happen and something needs to give.

I wonder if all these 14TF rumours are due to dev kits using a Radeon VII

Anyone else getting cold feet/the shakes on a 12-14TF next gen .. I am

[edit - and yet ... rumours are quoting better performance than Vega 64 at 150W - but how ?.. and the same process node ? ]
 
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Freeman454

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Where was it stated what type of rt pos5 will have?

Anyone else getting cold feet/the shakes on a 12-14TF next gen .. I am
Gtx1080 performance, so 8 to 9 TF worth of flops. Assume that equals 13TF navi.
 
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Freeman454

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Not been stated.



I'd be ok with that. [but not lower]
Exactly we dont know anything about its RT implementation. Guess it will be as usefull as the 8k support.

Many are not ok with 8/9TF worth of performance. I think hardware isnt the thing to strive after with ps5, its the games that will be optimized for it.
 
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Sounds like PS5 is gonna be somewhere between Vega 56 and Vega 64 performance but (hopefully) with raytracing.
 

Freeman454

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Sounds like PS5 is gonna be somewhere between Vega 56 and Vega 64 performance but (hopefully) with raytracing.
I think that was the rumor somewhere exactly stating this, between vega64 and 56.
About gtx 1080 performance at best, probably a bit under that.

Actually on b3d awhile ago ppl estimated gtx 1070 ballpark performance, its shaping up to be true. GPU has no chance to be something more then midrange however. CPU about mid range too seeing the very low clocks, memory we dont know yet but 24 total seems midrange by 2021. Its storage might be on par with high-end but thats hard to say. Its not like tech is standing still.
 
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sinnergy

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Like I said, if we are lucky 11 for PS5 and 12 for Anaconda, and Thats the high. Could be respectively 10 and 11.
 
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Not terrible news for PC gamers. PC gamers who prefer AMD maybe. I prefer NVIDIA so no worries here.
Uh yeah it is terrible news even if you hate AMD and exclusively buy Nvidia products.

Nvidia is behaving exactly as you’d expect a company with no competition to behave. The entire reason 2080 Ti is $1200+ and 2080 is $700+ is because they have no serious competition at the high end.

It’s even more depressing when you realize that performance per $ has essentially remained stagnant for the last few years.

This is not the normal state of things where we used to get roughly a doubling of performance/dollar every 2-3 years.
 

Sycomunkee

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I love everyone’s excitement for ray tracing as if nVidia cards can do it well. The lowering of FPS is not worth the effect.
 
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DemonCleaner

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What has Adoredtv leaked so far? I’ve never heard of them before.
He has leaked Nvidia RTX cards, AMD Epic (Server chip) IO-Dies and chiplet design of Zen 2 before anybody else knew about that stuff.

so while i hope he is wrong with this one, he is certainly not full of shit.

Apparently this dude if full of shit.
Oh and I forgot to say. According to Coreteks (look for them on YT) NAVI has been publicly regarded as a mainstream product by AMD and not highend GPUs, so no one should really be expecting much from that.
because it's not highend, people shouldn't be expecting much ...like let's say efficiency? i don't get that logic.

coreteks has some interesting ideas and i like his videos, but they also show that he doesn't has much of a clue when it comes to the engineering side of things. i think he comes from marketing or something and this is what gives his videos a different spin / another perpective.
 

DemonCleaner

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Not terrible news for PC gamers. PC gamers who prefer AMD maybe. I prefer NVIDIA so no worries here.
that's terrible news for everyone. i can't believe that there are still pc gamers out there, that didn't get that the fate of (state of the art) pc games is directly linked to what your console generation base spec is. i wish it wasn't that way because then awesome things like realtime GI would have been standard in games the whole last generation. but that's how it is.
 

Monsterkillah

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Lets just wait for AMD official confirmation reports before everyone start panicking

I dont even know who this guy is or any reason why should i trust him

Even if there is problem i believe they will solved it asap, these guys are not amateur engineers
 
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Mista

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They have a year to deal with the problems. Otherwise it’s GG EZ very early
 

wordslaughter

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Maybe there is something they can do and maybe there isn't.

Sometimes a new design is amazing and sometimes it isn't. And even experts don't know which is which until very late into development.

Sometimes you get a Pascal and sometimes you get a Fermi.
 
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thelastword

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Where was it stated what type of rt pos5 will have?



Gtx1080 performance, so 8 to 9 TF worth of flops. Assume that equals 13TF navi.
Did you just call the PS5 a POS5? And of course 8-9TF rears it's ugly head again and the FUD about NVIDIA flops......At least try to hide it.....

I think that was the rumor somewhere exactly stating this, between vega64 and 56.
About gtx 1080 performance at best, probably a bit under that.

Actually on b3d awhile ago ppl estimated gtx 1070 ballpark performance, its shaping up to be true. GPU has no chance to be something more then midrange however. CPU about mid range too seeing the very low clocks, memory we dont know yet but 24 total seems midrange by 2021. Its storage might be on par with high-end but thats hard to say. Its not like tech is standing still.
So you heard about PS5 being about GTX 1070 level, when Leadbetter was saying XBONEX is around GTX 1070 level in 2017, nobody had any problem when he said that, but now, Sony is only going to deliver 1070 ballpark performance in 2020 after spending millions in R&D and engineering with AMD on a 7nm node? Just genius stuff from you as usual.....

Wouldn’t be that surprising if true. Vega 20/Radeon VII are 7nm and have terrible performance/watt.

What this rumor suggests is that Navi is an incremental refinement of Vega 20, and not as big of an increment as we were hoping for.
Sounds like PS5 is gonna be somewhere between Vega 56 and Vega 64 performance but (hopefully) with raytracing.
You guys are as about transparent as the reflections in RTX'd BFV.........with lots of noise in the image, perhaps a noise fllter is required......

PS5 cannot be a between Vega 56 and 64......Navi will offer much better performance than that in 2019 at lower thermals and power consumption.......PS5 is going for 4k and also 8k resolution, with raytracing, to power PSVR2 at high rez and frames and next gen AAA games, so there's no way all they're going to do is to simply offer mid-way Vega Performance.......Everybody and their grandmother's are anlayzing Navi based on prior GCN renditions......The Navi arch has lots of optimizations and features that prior AMD offerings even on GCN never had, it's all about efficiency, getting more frames, less latency, better memory and bandwidth management, much higher IPC/instructions per CU etc......People have no info on the details of Navi, but are enamoured to call it's doom.........Every vendor has issues during development, nobody denies that, AMD particularly, they're certainly not oblivious, but there's no way an old arch which was just shooehorned to 7nm in Vega VII is the best AMD can offer on that node in 2019......Navi did not just start development, it's been in the pipeline for a bit and there has been very positive reports about it from AMD....


Everybody want to be the guy/s who has the scoop......The media said there was going to be no Vega 7, AMD announced it at CES....The media said Ryzen was going to be shown and announced at CES? No show.......The media said Navi is only going to be midrange??????? When Lisa Su constantly says that they will be competing on the high-end.....I mean who in their right mind would think that a new/refined arch is being worked on all these years and all they have to offer from it is a mid range product? It may be that AMD launches the lower end or midrange products first, but that's where their most successful cards are anyway.....rx 570 and 580's are the best bang for the buck in their price range.........Yet here, AMD is going to offer RX 580 perf at 75 watts and further kill the dead horse that is the 1650, they will offer RX 3070 that crushes the 1070/1070t/1660ti and 2060.........They will offer 3070XT that beats the GTX1080/2070 all at a lower power draw and better efficiencies, so what's all this hoopla about......

People want to talk about Turing being on shelves for 8 months already, but Turing only offered the same performance of pascal cards at a higher pricepoint and to date all we have are 4 RTX games, with very subpar delivery and performance.....1080ti had 11 Gb's, it competes with a new card with only 8Gb and that card is more expensive too....People said AMD needs to offer lower power consumption......AMD looks to offer cards with much lower power consumption at significantly lower prices than NV and they still want to complain..........Yes Jensen Huang and NV fans are really feeling the pinch right now.....It seems the 27th of May is rubbing them all the wrong way.......Stay tuned till then......
 

Gamernyc78

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Did you just call the PS5 a POS5? And of course 8-9TF rears it's ugly head again and the FUD about NVIDIA flops......At least try to hide it.....


So you heard about PS5 being about GTX 1070 level, when Leadbetter was saying XBONEX is around GTX 1070 level in 2017, nobody had any problem when he said that, but now, Sony is only going to deliver 1070 ballpark performance in 2020 after spending millions in R&D and engineering with AMD on a 7nm node? Just genius stuff from you as usual.....




You guys are as about transparent as the reflections in RTX'd BFV.........with lots of noise in the image, perhaps a noise fllter is required......

PS5 cannot be a between Vega 56 and 64......Navi will offer much better performance than that in 2019 at lower thermals and power consumption.......PS5 is going for 4k and also 8k resolution, with raytracing, to power PSVR2 at high rez and frames and next gen AAA games, so there's no way all they're going to do is to simply offer mid-way Vega Performance.......Everybody and their grandmother's are anlayzing Navi based on prior GCN renditions......The Navi arch has lots of optimizations and features that prior AMD offerings even on GCN never had, it's all about efficiency, getting more frames, less latency, better memory and bandwidth management, much higher IPC/instructions per CU etc......People have no info on the details of Navi, but are enamoured to call it's doom.........Every vendor has issues during development, nobody denies that, AMD particularly, they're certainly not oblivious, but there's no way an old arch which was just shooehorned to 7nm in Vega VII is the best AMD can offer on that node in 2019......Navi did not just start development, it's been in the pipeline for a bit and there has been very positive reports about it from AMD....


Everybody want to be the guy/s who has the scoop......The media said there was going to be no Vega 7, AMD announced it at CES....The media said Ryzen was going to be shown and announced at CES? No show.......The media said Navi is only going to be midrange??????? When Lisa Su constantly says that they will be competing on the high-end.....I mean who in their right mind would think that a new/refined arch is being worked on all these years and all they have to offer from it is a mid range product? It may be that AMD launches the lower end or midrange products first, but that's where their most successful cards are anyway.....rx 570 and 580's are the best bang for the buck in their price range.........Yet here, AMD is going to offer RX 580 perf at 75 watts and further kill the dead horse that is the 1650, they will offer RX 3070 that crushes the 1070/1070t/1660ti and 2060.........They will offer 3070XT that beats the GTX1080/2070 all at a lower power draw and better efficiencies, so what's all this hoopla about......

People want to talk about Turing being on shelves for 8 months already, but Turing only offered the same performance of pascal cards at a higher pricepoint and to date all we have are 4 RTX games, with very subpar delivery and performance.....1080ti had 11 Gb's, it competes with a new card with only 8Gb and that card is more expensive too....People said AMD needs to offer lower power consumption......AMD looks to offer cards with much lower power consumption at significantly lower prices than NV and they still want to complain..........Yes Jensen Huang and NV fans are really feeling the pinch right now.....It seems the 27th of May is rubbing them all the wrong way.......Stay tuned till then......
LOL I don't even read freemans fake concern, Microsoft shill posts anymore. We know what time it is with him already 😭
 
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^ Navi will NEED a massive improvement in performance/watt in order to be fit for consoles.

Let’s say that Navi is a miracle product that delivers DOUBLE the perf/watt of Vega 20 (which BTW is already on 7nm). That would mean Radeon VII-level performance at ~150 watts, which would still be too power hungry for a console.

So yeah, something around or a little below Vega 64 performance seems pretty feasible.
 
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demigod

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Did you just call the PS5 a POS5? And of course 8-9TF rears it's ugly head again and the FUD about NVIDIA flops......At least try to hide it.....


So you heard about PS5 being about GTX 1070 level, when Leadbetter was saying XBONEX is around GTX 1070 level in 2017, nobody had any problem when he said that, but now, Sony is only going to deliver 1070 ballpark performance in 2020 after spending millions in R&D and engineering with AMD on a 7nm node? Just genius stuff from you as usual.....




You guys are as about transparent as the reflections in RTX'd BFV.........with lots of noise in the image, perhaps a noise fllter is required......

PS5 cannot be a between Vega 56 and 64......Navi will offer much better performance than that in 2019 at lower thermals and power consumption.......PS5 is going for 4k and also 8k resolution, with raytracing, to power PSVR2 at high rez and frames and next gen AAA games, so there's no way all they're going to do is to simply offer mid-way Vega Performance.......Everybody and their grandmother's are anlayzing Navi based on prior GCN renditions......The Navi arch has lots of optimizations and features that prior AMD offerings even on GCN never had, it's all about efficiency, getting more frames, less latency, better memory and bandwidth management, much higher IPC/instructions per CU etc......People have no info on the details of Navi, but are enamoured to call it's doom.........Every vendor has issues during development, nobody denies that, AMD particularly, they're certainly not oblivious, but there's no way an old arch which was just shooehorned to 7nm in Vega VII is the best AMD can offer on that node in 2019......Navi did not just start development, it's been in the pipeline for a bit and there has been very positive reports about it from AMD....


Everybody want to be the guy/s who has the scoop......The media said there was going to be no Vega 7, AMD announced it at CES....The media said Ryzen was going to be shown and announced at CES? No show.......The media said Navi is only going to be midrange??????? When Lisa Su constantly says that they will be competing on the high-end.....I mean who in their right mind would think that a new/refined arch is being worked on all these years and all they have to offer from it is a mid range product? It may be that AMD launches the lower end or midrange products first, but that's where their most successful cards are anyway.....rx 570 and 580's are the best bang for the buck in their price range.........Yet here, AMD is going to offer RX 580 perf at 75 watts and further kill the dead horse that is the 1650, they will offer RX 3070 that crushes the 1070/1070t/1660ti and 2060.........They will offer 3070XT that beats the GTX1080/2070 all at a lower power draw and better efficiencies, so what's all this hoopla about......

People want to talk about Turing being on shelves for 8 months already, but Turing only offered the same performance of pascal cards at a higher pricepoint and to date all we have are 4 RTX games, with very subpar delivery and performance.....1080ti had 11 Gb's, it competes with a new card with only 8Gb and that card is more expensive too....People said AMD needs to offer lower power consumption......AMD looks to offer cards with much lower power consumption at significantly lower prices than NV and they still want to complain..........Yes Jensen Huang and NV fans are really feeling the pinch right now.....It seems the 27th of May is rubbing them all the wrong way.......Stay tuned till then......
This is at least the 2nd time he’s called it the pos5 so its no accident.
 

ethomaz

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Welcome to the old, limited and over extended GCN.

You know the old thermal issues of the architecture can’t be solved only doing a shrink to 7nm.
 
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thelastword

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LOL I don't even read freemans fake concern, Microsoft shill posts anymore. We know what time it is with him already 😭
Lol, I had no idea he was so blatant........
This is at least the 2nd time he’s called it the pos5 so its no accident.
Well, maybe the posts I've from him did not have it, but it's the first time I've seen it.....Yet I could swear that he pretends to be non-biased.....So I just thought I'd mention that pink elephant in that post.....
 
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SonGoku

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We don't know to what extent the PS5 will support ray tracing.

Are you expecting the PS5's GPU to have at least 60CUs just like a 180+ watt ( which seems very optmistic IMO ) dedicated GPU but we're just gonna get all that in APU form ... and at the same time.... and for a lower price?
Again... you are basing this on one YouTube video
 
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Ivellios

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Nah, just skip navi and get the successor.



That was supposed to be Navi10Lite for pos5. High end doesnt make sense as it wont even be ready, and with that power draw...

I think ppl got abit too excited after Cernys PR on ps5.



Wait for zen3 16c/32t high clocked, supports pcie4.0, and get navi successor, or nvidia 3000 series.



All those were 30fps though. That and 4k and dimishing returns, and we dont come from a ps3 with funky hardware/extreme low amounts of ram.



First of all thats a rumor. Second, AMD wouldnt do that with RT. Its probably some CU modification, limited RT.
Thanks for the advice, but my current PC is a GTX 650 ti along with a i5 4590, i cant wait another year to upgrade this.

Besides with Zen 2 im set for the entire next gen of consoles because that is the CPU they will use.

In my case it wouldn't make to much sense, I have RX580 at the moment. So a substantial upgrade would be 2070 I guess? Anyway, we will see. Maybe it will be relatively cheap and higher models will offer some performance after all.
I think the RTX 2060 offers 50% more performance than a RX 580, but with your current card i think you can wait for a better Navi/Geforce.

However if you really want to upgrade now the RTX 2060 has near identical performance to 2070 from reviews i read, and Steve of Hardware Unboxed says he does not think its worth it to buy a 2070 just because it has 2gb vram more than 2060.
 

JohnnyFootball

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I do not and will not believe one goddamn thing about Navi, until it gets released and officially reviewed.

Not. One. Goddamn. Thing.

AMD rumors have always been unreliable.

Perhaps, though it's good news for AMD that people seem to be expecting Navi to bomb and maybe they can surprise us.
 
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Panajev2001a

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that's terrible news for everyone. i can't believe that there are still pc gamers out there, that didn't get that the fate of (state of the art) pc games is directly linked to what your console generation base spec is. i wish it wasn't that way because then awesome things like realtime GI would have been standard in games the whole last generation. but that's how it is.
The again PC gamers have enjoyed running games at 4K resolution with maxed out effects and high resolution textures and screen based effects at 60-140 FPS thanks to that... so it was a bit of a win win...
 
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SonGoku

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The again PC gamers have enjoyed running games at 4K resolution with maxed out effects and high resolution textures and screen based effects at 60-140 FPS thanks to that... so it was a bit of a win win...
I agree with the sentiment but 4k at locked 60fps at high/max settings is not very prevalent let alone 140fps lol (unless you meant 1080p?)
 
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Panajev2001a

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I agree with the sentiment but 4k at locked 60fps at high/max settings is not very prevalent let alone 140fps lol (unless you meant 1080p?)
Not saying it is prevalent, but certainly attainable with a decent gaming PC if the game received a decent port to PC. Not saying all games received great ports and that it is hassle free, but when a new generation of gaming console starts and games see the spec bump, it does not take long for gaming PC’s to catch up brute forcing features and then pushing for higher frame rates and / or IQ. You do not get vastly different and PC unique games, but you get to spend more and unlock extra quality options.
 
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MadYarpen

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Thanks for the advice, but my current PC is a GTX 650 ti along with a i5 4590, i cant wait another year to upgrade this.

Besides with Zen 2 im set for the entire next gen of consoles because that is the CPU they will use.



I think the RTX 2060 offers 50% more performance than a RX 580, but with your current card i think you can wait for a better Navi/Geforce.

However if you really want to upgrade now the RTX 2060 has near identical performance to 2070 from reviews i read, and Steve of Hardware Unboxed says he does not think its worth it to buy a 2070 just because it has 2gb vram more than 2060.
I am not in a rush so I'll wait. I'll have to consider cpu as well, but here again I feel OK with ryzen 5 2600
 

stetiger

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1 chip is cheaper than 2 chips, and using 2 chips from different companies is going to complicate things. on the PC side APUs make less sense because they are underpowered due to the fact that content isn't developed specifically for them and instead must cater to a very large diversity of hardware configurations. If you want to game on a laptop an APU isn't gonna cut it, so a dGPU is necessary, but on consoles APUs are powerful enough because everybody has the same hardware and content is coded specifically for that hardware.
The point you are making for the hardware is true for any tech on consoles. It will be the same across all of them, you don't need an APU for that to be true.
 

Boss Mog

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The point you are making for the hardware is true for any tech on consoles. It will be the same across all of them, you don't need an APU for that to be true.
The point I'm making is that if you want to sell a console for $400-500 an APU is the way to go and right now AMD is the only company that can offer an APU with an adequate iGPU.
 
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The point I'm making is that if you want to sell a console for $400-500 an APU is the way to go and right now AMD is the only company that can offer an APU with an adequate iGPU.
Well I mean Nvidia exists and Tegra is a thing but unless you're willing to switch to ARM like Nintendo did that's still not an option.
 

Digital Gex

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If this thread tells us anything, is that there's no real competition in the semi-conductor space and its basically a 3-way monopoly.
 

Croatoan

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Where was it stated what type of rt pos5 will have?



Gtx1080 performance, so 8 to 9 TF worth of flops. Assume that equals 13TF navi.
Wait? Next gen is going to meet the power of a GPU I bought years ago?

Fuck next gen consoles if true. I'll teach my wife to use a mouse and keyboard.

I don't understand why APUs have to be used. Just use dedicated and not worry about power draw. I have to gaming PCs with large power supplies and it adds very little per month on the power bill.
 
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Digital Gex

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Wait? Next gen is going to meet the power of a GPU I bought years ago?

Fuck next gen consoles if true. I'll teach my wife to use a mouse and keyboard.
No he's wrong.

It's 2019, we had a huge graphical jump in chipsets that also dropped in prices for the last 3 years. The next generation consoles are going to have recent CPU's and recent GPU's that will be closer to the top.
 

Croatoan

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No he's wrong.

It's 2019, we had a huge graphical jump in chipsets that also dropped in prices for the last 3 years. The next generation consoles are going to have recent CPU's and recent GPU's that will be closer to the top.
How close to a gtx 2080 will we be because speculation is really all over the place?
 
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