SaggyMonkey
Member
I feel like that was their answer to dpad anyway, wasn't it?
I was afraid the new face buttons came in place of the directional touchpad clicking.
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Latest Steam Controller design spotted in client beta?
- Thread starter ashecitism
- Start date
I feel like that was their answer to dpad anyway, wasn't it?
I was afraid the new face buttons came in place of the directional touchpad clicking.
ashecitism
Member
Yes, it was and still is. They talk about the 4 button diamonds here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfN5WK7OzU8&t=25m40s
Jon Armdog
Member
This is exactly how I feel
It already does. I've been using a WiiU Pro Controller for all of my Steam games. Map buttons and every SDL2 game gets the button mappings from Steam with no other applications needed and just using the drivers built into the Linux kernel. Even works over streaming when streaming from my Windows machine in the other room.
Novan Leon
Banned
Despite the ugly-ness of the new design and my first reaction being negative, I think the addition of an analog makes sense. The left side is usually used for movement and I think an analog stick may feel better than a pad for this purpose. The lack of a d-pad is less concerning given the haptic button function of the pads and the built-in support for traditional game pads, if so desired.
My main issue with the Steam Controller is that it seems like a very small, incremental step rather than something radically improved. I doubt it will usher in a new era of PC gaming on the couch like some people hope. I think an improved nunchaku or glove-style design would be more revolutionary and better for gaming.
The mouse is by far the fastest and most accurate tool for positional input that we have today. It's also more ergonomic and less likely to cause long-term joint pain than trackpads, trackballs or analog sticks because it distributes work through your entire arm instead of concentrating on a select few finger muscles to perform actions. The keyboard is more ergonomic than a controller for similar reasons (distribution of work). The fact that a mouse and keyboard user can space out their hands naturally instead of holding them together in front of their body also helps ergonomics. A truly revolutionary controller should attempt to emulate a mouse as closely as possible. Rather than shoehorn mouse-like functionality into a controller, we should instead concentrate on removing the requirement for a flat stable surface from the traditional mouse.
As I envision it, the controller device would have two components or devices connected wirelessly or via a wired similar to the Wii nunchaku controller:
Device 1 (default "right hand")
I have a hard time believing this isn't possible with our current technology and would be far superior to a touchpad controller, IMHO.
My main issue with the Steam Controller is that it seems like a very small, incremental step rather than something radically improved. I doubt it will usher in a new era of PC gaming on the couch like some people hope. I think an improved nunchaku or glove-style design would be more revolutionary and better for gaming.
The mouse is by far the fastest and most accurate tool for positional input that we have today. It's also more ergonomic and less likely to cause long-term joint pain than trackpads, trackballs or analog sticks because it distributes work through your entire arm instead of concentrating on a select few finger muscles to perform actions. The keyboard is more ergonomic than a controller for similar reasons (distribution of work). The fact that a mouse and keyboard user can space out their hands naturally instead of holding them together in front of their body also helps ergonomics. A truly revolutionary controller should attempt to emulate a mouse as closely as possible. Rather than shoehorn mouse-like functionality into a controller, we should instead concentrate on removing the requirement for a flat stable surface from the traditional mouse.
As I envision it, the controller device would have two components or devices connected wirelessly or via a wired similar to the Wii nunchaku controller:
Device 1 (default "right hand")
- Identical to a mouse in use and function except without the need for a consistent flat surface.
- Should be usable by lying your hand on your lap or on the chair/couch at your side (any position as long as it's comfortable and you can move your hand).
- Movement could be detected by an internal sensor or another mechanism such as an external sensor bar.
- Precision shouldn't be affected by the default placement of the device in any way.
- The device could be shaped to emulate a mouse or adopt a completely new design such as a sphere or malleable object such as a isometric strength "squeeze" ball.
- The device should support a small number of buttons similar to a gaming mouse.
- The device should be ambidextrous.
- Includes an analog stick, d-pad and trigger buttons.
- Is held in the hand and can be placed anywhere, position and orientation are irrelevant.
- The device should be ambidextrous.
I have a hard time believing this isn't possible with our current technology and would be far superior to a touchpad controller, IMHO.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
At this rate it'll be a bloody traditional controller by the time it releases.
The dual analogue setup is so goddamn archaic and imprecise. Please let it die.
The dual analogue setup is so goddamn archaic and imprecise. Please let it die.
EDIT: Shits old, disregard
So I stumbled on this stashed in the steam folder - appears to be (app_204450.txt) Call of Juarez Gunslinger bindings for the new version of the steam controller. Also appears the touch screen may still exist:
I figure the touchscreen must still exist in some prototype form because if it was just a left over surely the other buttons now removed would still be there.. I don't know.. also stick isn't even being used here
So I stumbled on this stashed in the steam folder - appears to be (app_204450.txt) Call of Juarez Gunslinger bindings for the new version of the steam controller. Also appears the touch screen may still exist:
Code:
"controller_mappings"
{
"buttons"
{
"button_0" "kb:key_o, Objective"
"button_1" "kb:key_u, Skills"
"button_2" "mouse:scroll_down, Next Weapon"
"button_3" "mouse:scroll_up, Dual Weilding"
"right_trigger" "mouse:left_button, Fire/Activate"
"left_trigger" "mouse:right_button, Aim"
"right_bumper" "kb:key_g, Dynamite"
"left_bumper" "kb:key_q, Concentration"
"button_escape" "kb:key_esc, Menu"
"button_menu" "kb:key_tab"
"backside_left" "kb:key_lcontrol, Crouch"
"backside_right" "kb:key_f, Melee"
}
"touchscreen"
{
"touch_button_0" "kb:key_1, Long"
"touch_button_1" "kb:key_2, Slot 2"
"touch_button_2" "kb:key_3, Slot 3"
"touch_button_3" "kb:key_4, Slot 4"
}
"pads"
{
"left_stick_up" ""
"left_stick_right" ""
"left_stick_down" ""
"left_stick_left" ""
"left_stick_click" ""
"left_north" "kb:key_w, Move Forward"
"left_northeast" ""
"left_east" "kb:key_d, Move Right"
"left_southeast" ""
"left_south" "kb:key_s, Move Backward"
"left_southwest" ""
"left_west" "kb:key_a, Move Left"
"left_northwest" ""
"left_double_tap" ""
"left_outer_edge" "kb:key_lshift, Run"
"left_click" "kb:key_space, Jump"
"right_north" "kb:key_up"
"right_northeast" ""
"right_east" "kb:key_right"
"right_southeast" ""
"right_south" "kb:key_down"
"right_southwest" ""
"right_west" "kb:key_left"
"right_northwest" ""
"right_double_tap" "kb:key_r, Reload"
"right_outer_edge" ""
"right_click" "kb:key_e, Use or Pickup"
// Extra descriptions for pads as a whole rather than just individual directions
pad_rollup_descriptions
{
"left_pad" "Movement"
"right_pad" "Look"
}
}
"settings"
{
}
}I figure the touchscreen must still exist in some prototype form because if it was just a left over surely the other buttons now removed would still be there.. I don't know.. also stick isn't even being used here
ashecitism
Member
Isn't that old? The guys at SteamDB found a lot of those files back then.
Quadraphonic
Member
I find all this discussion hilarious because I distinctly remember when the controller was first revealed.
When it was first shown off, there were two crowds. One of "I'm not sure if this will work..." and the other of "Shut up, you fool. Valve does no wrong!"
Seeing these kinds of revisions going back towards a more familiar style, dropping the insane screen and such, really justifies the initial skepticism.
When it was first shown off, there were two crowds. One of "I'm not sure if this will work..." and the other of "Shut up, you fool. Valve does no wrong!"
Seeing these kinds of revisions going back towards a more familiar style, dropping the insane screen and such, really justifies the initial skepticism.
I don't think people were saying "Shut up, you fool. Valve does no wrong!" as much as they were saying to give it a chance. That chance has actually been given in the form of community testing, and the revisions are in response to the feedback they got. It's a process of refinement, not a bad idea disintegrating into nothing.
You can't match a mouse 100%, but you can get closer with a touchpad than with an analog stick.
You're probably right actually now that I look at the file date 9/2/14. I saw the left stick thing and thought OOOOoooOOOooo. Sorry, good spot.
They have already said something to the effect of that they like the touch screen idea and that it will probably appear in a later controller or premium version. Sorry to dissapoint
So buy every other controller that's out already, why should they bother to make what you already have when it is completely incapable of velocity based control which is the advantage of mice?
ashecitism
Member
You're being very tame with that one, while playing the other side up. Majority of the detractors didn't even read what Valve put out, just focused on the looks.
RicoTheMad
Banned
The touchscreen buttons refer to those 4 buttons in the middle or the original controller design after they removed the touchscreen. It's probably just a very old config file that they never updated. Valve was pretty clear at Dev Days that they were done trying for a touch screen design since it didn't add enough and was clumsy to use according to their tests.
Yep, my bad for not checking the thing
Quadraphonic
Member
I need to dig up the thread, but it wasn't about giving it a chance. It was a lot of responses of "You haven't used it yourself. How can you know how good it is yet?"
I'll go search.
ashecitism
Member
Well, that's a perfectly fair response. Valve never said the design was final, and they sent out a bunch of them to beta testers. They got lots of responses about what about their design was good, and what wasn't, which is why the design has been updated.
How does "Valve can do no wrong" compare to "You haven't used it yourself. How can you know how good it is yet?"? The later is still true today for most users here today, and as they are still a bunch of prototypes that will be iterated on further, all we can do is judge it on the content of people that have used it, what Valve discuss publicly about and what our perceptions are. None of those relate to "Valve can do no wrong". In fact that just sounds like some churlish attitude to propagating fanboyism that didn't exist. Having said that I now wonder why I am fuelling that by even having this conversation with you
Quadraphonic
Member
Yeah. Digging through it now.
Looking back, yeah, it was ugly. The biggest concern was the haptic feedback for the buttons using some kind of voodoo to simulate tactile feedback for button clicks without being a real button.
The "Shut up, you fool" comments are more sparse than I imagined, but still existed.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83885021&postcount=521
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83885031&postcount=524
It wasn't even the fact people were excited about it, but those claiming they didn't understand the negative reaction to it. But this is NeoGaf. Every viewpoint gets represented, somehow.
When the controller was first unveiled I spent the entire thread, not defending the controller's design, but pointing out obvious information that was written on the site.
I was literally regurgitating information verbatim from the site for people who refused to read or apply rational thought. Truly an embarrassment of a thread.
I can see how people can be skeptical, it's different, but there is a huge, and nessecary, niche for this controller to fill.
Conversely, an embarrassing number of people dismissed it without reading anything about how it was supposed to work, or even on the basis of its appearance.
There was some reasoned skepticism, but there was also a lot of "LOL GG VALVE WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT"
Quadraphonic
Member
Oh totally. It's different genres it's catering to.
It was just very polarizing at first reveal because we're used to an all-around controller and the thread was posted with a giant-ass image, so it was pretty much easy to dismiss any actual discussion of what it was designed for. At the same time, it did have design flaws. And it's something released from Valve. So it's almost impossible to ask for civil calm discussion.
I understand the designs that went into the controller. But damn. That old thread nearly hit 90 pages of insanity.
Seeing Valve stick to the touchpads is reassuring that that tech works well. More sane button placement helps, too.
It was just very polarizing at first reveal because we're used to an all-around controller and the thread was posted with a giant-ass image, so it was pretty much easy to dismiss any actual discussion of what it was designed for. At the same time, it did have design flaws. And it's something released from Valve. So it's almost impossible to ask for civil calm discussion.
I understand the designs that went into the controller. But damn. That old thread nearly hit 90 pages of insanity.
Seeing Valve stick to the touchpads is reassuring that that tech works well. More sane button placement helps, too.
ashecitism
Member
Why are trying to only paint the Valve fans in bad light? Why do you think that last pic is in the OP?
This is hilarious, and I thought we already left it behind.
I honestly don't care if they put pinball flippers and a 20 sided die on this thing, I just want it. I still believe in those touchpads, and I want the future where I can map any game to a controller, not just the ones that support them.
Also, I can't believe Valve is the first company to think to put two buttons on the grips. Seems like such a no brainer.
Also, I can't believe Valve is the first company to think to put two buttons on the grips. Seems like such a no brainer.
I don't really know if that is the conclusion you can draw. From everything that I've seen, it seems that they are adamant on having a software manageable solution to the controller hardware, since software is as they say "what we do best". Trackpads seem to be the only way they can accomplish that goal. On the one hand it has great promise, such as native support, simulation of trackball but being able to dynamically alter emulation of weight/friction/size, and crowd-sourcing legacy bindings. But whether the trackpads are actually good enough tech, and even whether that tech is evolving since the original prototypes we'll have to see. Interested to see how long it takes them and what changes or new stuff will be in the final release build or their mentioned premium versions that they may do, or even if third parties provide better solutions
ashecitism
Member
EatinOlives
Member
That's some revisionist history going on in here...
The thread on reveal had a metric shitton of people overreacting and calling it garbage. There were barely any "Valve do no wrong" posts, and whatever positive or neutral opinions there were posted, they were all drowned by a flood of "THE WORST THING EVER, GAVE ME CANCER" hyperbolic nonsense.
Even the "Not sure about this, but I'll reserve my final judgement for when I have it in my hands" was a very, very minority opinion.
grandwizard
Member
I agree with a lot of your positions, and what you are describing is partially fulfilled by the Razer Hydra, which has been good at doing mouse/keyboard games from the couch for a while now.
What people are missing about the Steam Controller changes is that the 'big thing' of this controller is the cursor control via the trackpads. If they remove those they might as well not make it at all. Analog sticks will never be good for cursor control which a ton of PC games rely on, they have their good uses such as character movement though.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Which to me is the entire reason to be at all interested in the Steam controller in the first place- to have a controller that can let you play PC games on a TV that usually require mouse and keyboard.
If I want a regular controller for a regular controller based game, I already have those.
miDnIghtEr20C
Banned
This things going to sell lower than the Wii U.
Rodney McKay
Member
Not if it's bundled with rare Dota 2 loot and TF2 hats.
Throw in a .001% chance of a REALLY rare drop or something and it will sell like crazy
GalacticGravy
Member
I just want to play Myst from my couch without resorting to a crappy console port. If this lets me do that I'll buy one.
RicoTheMad
Banned
It can do this for you. You can play Civ5 with it without much issue. Takes a bit of getting used to but its 100% capable of it.
Where it fails for me a bit is fast paced action RTS type games.
ashecitism
Member
Shalarn did say at SDD he was comfortable with it to play SC against hard AI without hotkeys, and there have been impressions that Dota 2 (with a simple hero not requiring much buttons) is playable, just not ideal for normal, competitive play you can expect on PC. I don't think that was ever a realistic outlook for these type of games. Same goes for shooters.
SerTapTap
Member
Wait, it's out in the wild? Where? Even when trying Steam OS I didn't see any sort of controller wrapping options...it was just completely identical to Big Picture mode on Windows with a couple of different options in the settings menu.
RicoTheMad
Banned
I tried playing DOTA2 with it for a few days and it was a chore to control. Tried a few different control schemes as well. Definitely not competitive.
As far as SC, once I saw DOTA2 was hard to control I gave up on the idea. I'll probably revisit it once I see an RTS do native support for it. I'm sure people can get good at controlling with it but I personally don't feel like investing the time to do so and would rather RTS on my PC anyway.
The controller mapping that you do in Big Picture mode's settings menu translates into any SDL2 game that reads button mapping. This is almost my entire Linux library (103 games) and works when streaming from Windows machines also as Valve has a virtual controller that works on the remote PC which uses XInput for streaming from Windows.
Not sure if any Windows native games do it, I think most of them are stuck into the DX monopoly and use XInput instead of SDL2.
ashecitism
Member
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...ith-Analog-Stick-Confirmed-Explained-by-Valve
It's weird the employee would mention the "d-pad" when Valve has been pimping the trackpads for that function.
also this was found in the latest steam beta build
It's weird the employee would mention the "d-pad" when Valve has been pimping the trackpads for that function.
also this was found in the latest steam beta build
alexandros
Banned
Angle trackpads? What's that about?
Brofist
Member
Looks more like they are covering all their bases.
Lol
Changing the up direction. I'm assuming so that you can choose 'up' to be a straight, extended thumb as opposed to the current fixed position on an analog stick.
D
Deleted member 102362
Unconfirmed Member
Ok wait, they actually hired a machinist?