Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!

Hypron

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Hey guys, so I'm currently on Lesson 16 at Genki 2 (but my classes are at 13), and I was wondering: would it be worth doing WaniKani?

I would definitely like to get into reading more, and I feel like my lack of kanji (and vocab) are the biggest issues right now.
You're gonna have to learn Kanji at one point or another anyway, so might as well start as soon as possible. There are a couple of ways to do so, including Wanikani which is quite popular. Finish the three free levels and if it suits you, get a subscription and stick with it until you're done :)
 

Makai

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I fail to see how it's an issue.
Until I get more listening practice it destroys my ability to recognize words.

I'm signing up for JLPT for funsies. Should I try for N4 instead of N5? Wanikani projections say I will have 95% of N4 kanji a week after the test. I can probably master the grammar in the two months until the test.
 
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Starting to kick my learning into gear myself.

Recently I was really inspired by one of my co-workers. Hes been here a year and is already into N3 beginning N2 territory with no experience in the language. Dude studies a lot and is really smart. His speaking needs work as in being more comfortable and natural... and sometimes he makes silly mistakes (like when he translated a passage for a lady, but was using male pronouns haha) but whooo boy -fans self- hes doing it right.

Then again when hes deep into studying its like 3-5 hours a day. He reads, writes, and listens daily and its been paying off usually.
 

Porcile

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Living and working in Japan while studying pays off handsomely. It's maybe a once in a lifetime chance to have such an experience.
 

Porcile

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Well, you can get good Japanese and not be in Japan. In fact, it's probably the better way of doing things. Studying before coming I mean. But if you have the chance to live here then studying is going to be very fluid and practical. Obviously there are many people who don't do this and regret it greatly.
 

Resilient

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Until I get more listening practice it destroys my ability to recognize words.

I'm signing up for JLPT for funsies. Should I try for N4 instead of N5? Wanikani projections say I will have 95% of N4 kanji a week after the test. I can probably master the grammar in the two months until the test.
wtf? you need listening practice to be able to read kana and recognise words...what? wouldn't you need regular vocab study instead?

tip, N4 will have most words written using kana and not kanji, so prepare to struggle big time if you don't start studying properly.
 

Resilient

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anybody listening to some good podcasts that they genuinely enjoy at the moment? if so, please link them here. looking for something new and want to see what people are liking at the moment.
 

Luigi87

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Almost finished with the first lesson of Genki I, adding additional vocab as they come up (even in just the workbook sections) to my Anki deck.

Took a peek at lesson 3 when Kanji is introduced and can tell I'll be overwhelmed. I understand that they only introduced roughly 15 Kanji per lesson, but can see they also use several more in said chapter that they won't necessarily teach until later. I suppose the idea is for me to get comfortable with recognizing the forms?
 

Atmej

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I have been having some trouble with the "~like/ looks like" constructions. The problem is they are often taught separately and even when they are compared, the answers are somehow nebulous. So can someone please give me a clear answer on the differences between these 4 examples?

1.)田中さんらしい人を見た。
2.)田中さんみたいな人を見た。
3.)田中さんような人を見た。
4.)田中さんっぽい人を見た。

I want to know:
-If the person was 田中; yes, no, maybe (what%)
-Was the physical appearance the same?
-Was the behavior/personality the same?
-Any other differences.

Is X-みたい to have the appearance of X but not be X, while Xの/なよう means that there is chance that it is X? And does らしい focus more on the interior qualities? Would this be correct?
20年女みたい Wow, that dress makes you look amazing, like a 20-year-old.
20年女のよう Based on the security cam footage, I would say the suspect looks like a 20 something woman.
20年女らしい You're behaving like a spoiled 20-year-old. Grow up.
20年女っぽいAny of the above?

っぽい seems to mean anything and everything with some arbitrary differences.
子供っぽい -childish
子供らしい -child-like, befitting a child
女の子っぽい -girl like (not negative)
女みたいな -girly (of course this throws my theory that Xみたい focuses more on appearances under the bus)

Then for it "It looks like ~"
彼が来ないそうです。I read/was told/ was informed he won't come. (High certainty)
彼が来ないらしいです。I heard/ overheard/ rumor has it he won't come. (low-middle certainty)
彼が来なさそうです。Based on the current situation I'm experiencing (I am at the party, etc.), I don't think he will come.
彼が来ないようです。Based on the current situation I'm experiencing, I don't think he will come. (more sure than そう)
彼が来ないみたいです。Same as よう but less formal?

You pass by a store and say
店は潰れそうです。Looks like the store will close down. It's deserted even though it's a holiday.
店は潰れるそうです。Looks like the store is closing down. They already put up a notice.
店は潰れるみたいです。Same as よう but less formal?

I would be very grateful if you could help me sort it out because right now it's all a jumbled mess. Everything seems the same...
 

Hypron

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Short update I guess. I finished reading through とびら two days ago and I started 新完全マスター文法 (N3) yesterday. I just read through all the introduction stuff (in Japanese) but I am liking it so far, the Japanese explanations are pretty clear, which helps boost my reading confidence. It's also cool that the book is really designed for self-study, so you can easily do all the content by yourself.

I've also planned my textbook progress until the test in December. If I do the textbooks one at a time, and do 2 lessons a day for the 文法 and 読解 textbooks, and 1 lesson a day for the 聴解 one (which seems like a totally doable pace) and I will still have a full week left before the test. I'll keep the 聴解 textbook for last in order to get as much practice as I can right before the exam since it's my weak point. I think the other 2 sections of the test should be all right. After that, onto N2!
 

Eien1no1Yami

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Hey guys.

So in one of the recent exercises I did, I stumbled upon the word umai (うまい)
which at the time I though only meant delicious, but to my surprise the context was entirely different
and it meant skilled/good at something.
So I looked it up on the dictionary and again to my surprise the kanji for the word were (上手い) which
are the same with (じょうず・上手) and mean the same thing.
So first of all are the 2 of them synonyms or is there a slight a difference between them?
Of course the first one is an -い adjective compared to the other which is a -な adjective but if the context of the sentence is the same
can you use either of them?



Another thing I would like to mention is that sometimes I get confused with sentences that are written only in kana in N4 and not with kanji.
I mean I can ultimately read them and understand them of course but it takes a lot more time than it's supposed to.
On the the other hand if the same sentence was in kanji I can read it and understand it a lot quicker.
My sensei says to me that I'm his only student who thinks like that and that of the others would prefer for the JLPT to not have any kanji at all :p.
So I don't know if I'm the only one guys but I think if N4 had kanji (maybe with some furigana on top of the unknown ones) it would be easier for me as strange and ridiculous as it sounds.
 

Porcile

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Oct 23, 2012
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上手、うまい、えらい , even something like さすが

Whose to say what a Japanese person would say in any given situation? Just learn the word and move on, and get to understand it better in context. Use it if you want. Same goes for the guy with the epic post above you. You guys need to stop reading textbooks so much.
 

Kilrogg

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anybody listening to some good podcasts that they genuinely enjoy at the moment? if so, please link them here. looking for something new and want to see what people are liking at the moment.
Eh. Best/only thing I found that qualifies as the kind of podcasts we're used to in the West is ひいきびいき. Two hosts just shooting the shit about a given subject every week. Laid back, no loud noises or overbearing background music, tons of episodes out already. I listen to it every once in a while. Pretty good if you want to learn about general culture and pop culture. Not necessarily anime or games (though one of the hosts is a voice actor), but things that the Japanese hear about, talk about, see or use on a daily basis.
 

Porcile

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I would be very grateful if you could help me sort it out because right now it's all a jumbled mess. Everything seems the same...
Your post makes my brain hurt. The way you thinking about this is completely counter-productive and you honestly sound like a rambling madman. Of course all these things have different subtleties but it just strikes me that you if you listened to real Japanese, you wouldn't even care about the subtlety. You would hear someone say "blah blah" and you think "Ok, I understood that. Moving on". But you're thinking about it like "They said that? What? Why did they say that and not this other thing which they could've said?"

Of course you want to learn this stuff but you just need to learn the basic semantic function and move on. You can't predict how anyone is going to describe a situation so just deal with it. Your insane English translations show how hard you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and not thinking about language as communication.
 

Resilient

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You're gonna get two types of answers to these answers in here. First will be the one Porcile gave you and what I'm gonna say here too. Second will be somebody explaining in detail the answers to your questions. Both are good.

I have been having some trouble with the "~like/ looks like" constructions. The problem is they are often taught separately and even when they are compared, the answers are somehow nebulous. So can someone please give me a clear answer on the differences between these 4 examples?

1.)田中さんらしい人を見た。
2.)田中さんみたいな人を見た。
3.)田中さんような人を見た。
4.)田中さんっぽい人を見た。

I want to know:
-If the person was 田中; yes, no, maybe (what%)
-Was the physical appearance the same?
-Was the behavior/personality the same?
-Any other differences.

Is X-みたい to have the appearance of X but not be X, while Xの/なよう means that there is chance that it is X? And does らしい focus more on the interior qualities? Would this be correct?
20年女みたい Wow, that dress makes you look amazing, like a 20-year-old.
20年女のよう Based on the security cam footage, I would say the suspect looks like a 20 something woman.
20年女らしい You're behaving like a spoiled 20-year-old. Grow up.
20年女っぽいAny of the above?

っぽい seems to mean anything and everything with some arbitrary differences.
子供っぽい -childish
子供らしい -child-like, befitting a child
女の子っぽい -girl like (not negative)
女みたいな -girly (of course this throws my theory that Xみたい focuses more on appearances under the bus)

Then for it "It looks like ~"
彼が来ないそうです。I read/was told/ was informed he won't come. (High certainty)
彼が来ないらしいです。I heard/ overheard/ rumor has it he won't come. (low-middle certainty)
彼が来なさそうです。Based on the current situation I'm experiencing (I am at the party, etc.), I don't think he will come.
彼が来ないようです。Based on the current situation I'm experiencing, I don't think he will come. (more sure than そう)
彼が来ないみたいです。Same as よう but less formal?

You pass by a store and say
店は潰れそうです。Looks like the store will close down. It's deserted even though it's a holiday.
店は潰れるそうです。Looks like the store is closing down. They already put up a notice.
店は潰れるみたいです。Same as よう but less formal?

I would be very grateful if you could help me sort it out because right now it's all a jumbled mess. Everything seems the same...
You're overthinking it on some of the most basic forms of grammar. Porcile put it nicely, best way to learn this stuff is exposure; see it, absorb it, move on. If you're really, really still hung up on it, you should buy these 3 dictionaries clicky clicky for A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar.

Actually you should buy all 3 of these regardless because if this is giving you a headache, the later stuff will make you want to quit. These books get really detailed really quickly so you can go for your life splitting hairs if you don't want to learn through exposure. In fact, there are 2 pages in the yellow book that explain the differences to all 4 of those grammar patterns, but I'm not typing it because I can't be arsed. It's on page 550.

Hey guys.

So in one of the recent exercises I did, I stumbled upon the word umai (うまい)
which at the time I though only meant delicious, but to my surprise the context was entirely different
and it meant skilled/good at something.
So I looked it up on the dictionary and again to my surprise the kanji for the word were (上手い) which
are the same with (じょうず・上手) and mean the same thing.
So first of all are the 2 of them synonyms or is there a slight a difference between them?
Of course the first one is an -い adjective compared to the other which is a -な adjective but if the context of the sentence is the same
can you use either of them?

Another thing I would like to mention is that sometimes I get confused with sentences that are written only in kana in N4 and not with kanji.
I mean I can ultimately read them and understand them of course but it takes a lot more time than it's supposed to.
On the the other hand if the same sentence was in kanji I can read it and understand it a lot quicker.
My sensei says to me that I'm his only student who thinks like that and that of the others would prefer for the JLPT to not have any kanji at all :p.
So I don't know if I'm the only one guys but I think if N4 had kanji (maybe with some furigana on top of the unknown ones) it would be easier for me as strange and ridiculous as it sounds.
OK, this is gonna happen for as long as you study. Think about how many words there are in English, or Greek. There are so many ways to say the same thing. Do not get hung up on umai. You'll learn the differences, when and how they are used through exposure. No neogaf.com post is going to explain it sufficiently for you.

If you keep studying for another year, come back and read the last couple paragraphs of your post; it will make you laugh.
 

Eien1no1Yami

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Mar 9, 2015
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Thanks for the replies.
I'm asking about 上手い and 上手 because I fear that there might be a question in N4 where among the possible answers would be both of them so you might have to read between the lines in order to choose the correct one.
Look I know I'm over thinking it, it's one of my weaknesses , but I didn't find it unreasonable to ask.
I don't get hung up so much about it, but it was one of the questions I had and couldn't be answered by my sensei.

About the kanji part I agree with you that with practice and after a few years it won't make so much difference, but right now it helps a lot.

@Porcile you say that we must stop reading textbooks so much but that's the main source of study for most of the students that take the JLPT, especially the first ones :p.
Of course I agree that you mustn't just stick only to them but inevitably most of the questions will come up by studying those.
 

Sapientas

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anybody listening to some good podcasts that they genuinely enjoy at the moment? if so, please link them here. looking for something new and want to see what people are liking at the moment.
Eh. Best/only thing I found that qualifies as the kind of podcasts we're used to in the West is ひいきびいき. Two hosts just shooting the shit about a given subject every week. Laid back, no loud noises or overbearing background music, tons of episodes out already. I listen to it every once in a while. Pretty good if you want to learn about general culture and pop culture. Not necessarily anime or games (though one of the hosts is a voice actor), but things that the Japanese hear about, talk about, see or use on a daily basis.
Would love some podcasts recommendations as well. Listened to ひいきびいき and, though it is exactly the model I'm looking for, it is a bit too difficult to me.

Any other podcast like it? Been searching for some but no luck so far.
 

Resilient

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Jan 4, 2010
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Thanks for the replies.
I'm asking about 上手い and 上手 because I fear that there might be a question in N4 where among the possible answers would be both of them so you might have to read between the lines in order to choose the correct one.
Look I know I'm over thinking it, it's one of my weaknesses , but I didn't find it unreasonable to ask.
I don't get hung up so much about it, but it was one of the questions I had and couldn't be answered by my sensei.
Is your teacher Japanese? It very may well pop up in the JLPT, I'm trying to think of an example that may trip you up but can't.

Put it this way, I don't recall ever seeing a JLPT study book use うまい to describe food, which is where you'd typically see it. That's usually spoken. I've come across 上手く「うまく」 plenty of times to describe skill (sport, musical ability, intelligence), and 上手「じょうず」 as well to describe being good at something. hope that helps calm your fears.
 

Porcile

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@Porcile you say that we must stop reading textbooks so much but that's the main source of study for most of the students that take the JLPT, especially the first ones :p.
Of course I agree that you mustn't just stick only to them but inevitably most of the questions will come up by studying those.
JLPT is going to be a lot easier to pass if you expose yourself to native Japanese. I would honestly say that ALL the Japanese I have feel I have genuinely learned has come from exposure. I used the textbooks and learning to get a basic grasp, but my real understanding has come listening to it and reading it etc. It's about training your brain. If you aren't training your brain to listen and process Japanese you will always struggle with it.

However you are clearly good at English, and have learned a second language to a good level before so you should learn Japanese by whatever means you achieved your English ability.
 

Kilrogg

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Would love some podcasts recommendations as well. Listened to ひいきびいき and, though it is exactly the model I'm looking for, it is a bit too difficult to me.

Any other podcast like it? Been searching for some but no luck so far.
There might be some, but not to my knowledge.

What's your level? Unless ひいきびいき is so hard you can't make any sense out of it, I'd suggest sticking to it for a bit. If only to get you used to spoken Japanese.

Try to browse the Japanese iTunes Store too. You might find some podcasts up your alley there.
 

Eien1no1Yami

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Is your teacher Japanese? It very may well pop up in the JLPT, I'm trying to think of an example that may trip you up but can't.

Put it this way, I don't recall ever seeing a JLPT study book use うまい to describe food, which is where you'd typically see it. That's usually spoken. I've come across 上手く「うまく」 plenty of times to describe skill (sport, musical ability, intelligence), and 上手「じょうず」 as well to describe being good at something. hope that helps calm your fears.
Thanks a lot, yeah that definitely helps and I think now I have in my mind a better context
of those 2 words.

As for my teacher, no he is not Japanese although he learned from a Japanese teacher and he has N3.Unfortunately he failed N2 last year but he was really close, he only failed the Kanji just borderline.
 

Eien1no1Yami

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JLPT is going to be a lot easier to pass if you expose yourself to native Japanese. I would honestly say that ALL the Japanese I have feel I have genuinely learned has come from exposure. I used the textbooks and learning to get a basic grasp, but my real understanding has come listening to it and reading it etc. It's about training your brain. If you aren't training your brain to listen and process Japanese you will always struggle with it.

However you are clearly good at English, and have learned a second language to a good level before so you should learn Japanese by whatever means you achieved your English ability.
Thanks man, I already know that.
You say that to a person who tries to speak with other Japanese people though language exchange services.
A person who played DQXI on PS4 by using the scanning app of google translate to find the Kanji and a dictionary to look them up and add them to a deck.
This helped a lot to improve my reading skills, although yeah I know the grammar and vocabulary were pretty simple most of the time.
https://pastebin.com/ax9Mzaad

But believe it or not, I never saw うまい as 上手い in any of these activities :p.


Edit: Sorry for the double post
 

Raw64life

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Another thing I would like to mention is that sometimes I get confused with sentences that are written only in kana in N4 and not with kanji.
I mean I can ultimately read them and understand them of course but it takes a lot more time than it's supposed to.
On the the other hand if the same sentence was in kanji I can read it and understand it a lot quicker.
My sensei says to me that I'm his only student who thinks like that and that of the others would prefer for the JLPT to not have any kanji at all :p.
So I don't know if I'm the only one guys but I think if N4 had kanji (maybe with some furigana on top of the unknown ones) it would be easier for me as strange and ridiculous as it sounds.
This happens to me a lot. Probably because I'm on level 18 WaniKani but I'm still working on N5 level grammar and listening. I just find the SRS way easier than any other method of studying. Thankfully I just discovered bunpro.jp the other day. And they just added N4 too.
 

Resilient

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Working at a school, I hear both of those nearly every day without fail.
well yeah.. but in his defense he's reading textbooks and was worried about it popping up in the written section of the exam.

now that i think about it you'll probably encounter it in the listening? dude who gives a shit anyway it's N4, if you fail make sure you go for N3/N2 next year.
 

Sapientas

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There might be some, but not to my knowledge.

What's your level? Unless ひいきびいき is so hard you can't make any sense out of it, I'd suggest sticking to it for a bit. If only to get you used to spoken Japanese.

Try to browse the Japanese iTunes Store too. You might find some podcasts up your alley there.
I understand most of what's being said on that podcast, but it really bothers me when I lose the conversation and need to rewind it to get what's being said. I'll stick with it though, struggling like that is also a good learning experience.

Been looking on english internet like a fool.. guess I'll go look for something at the iTunes like you said.
 

Atmej

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Sep 22, 2011
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Your post makes my brain hurt. The way you thinking about this is completely counter-productive and you honestly sound like a rambling madman. Of course all these things have different subtleties but it just strikes me that you if you listened to real Japanese, you wouldn't even care about the subtlety. You would hear someone say "blah blah" and you think "Ok, I understood that. Moving on". But you're thinking about it like "They said that? What? Why did they say that and not this other thing which they could've said?"

Of course you want to learn this stuff but you just need to learn the basic semantic function and move on. You can't predict how anyone is going to describe a situation so just deal with it. Your insane English translations show how hard you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and not thinking about language as communication.
Blind exposure seems like a very inefficient process. Like, how many examples are you going to need before you finally "get" minor differences. And then there's misuse or regional usage that further muddle it up.
Having clear rules and seeing how they are applied is, imho, much better than stumbling through it with some vague understanding.

I really think you first need to learn the subtleties before you can disregard them.

You're gonna get two types of answers to these answers in here. First will be the one Porcile gave you and what I'm gonna say here too. Second will be somebody explaining in detail the answers to your questions. Both are good.


You're overthinking it on some of the most basic forms of grammar. Porcile put it nicely, best way to learn this stuff is exposure; see it, absorb it, move on. If you're really, really still hung up on it, you should buy these 3 dictionaries clicky clicky for A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar.

Actually you should buy all 3 of these regardless because if this is giving you a headache, the later stuff will make you want to quit. These books get really detailed really quickly so you can go for your life splitting hairs if you don't want to learn through exposure. In fact, there are 2 pages in the yellow book that explain the differences to all 4 of those grammar patterns, but I'm not typing it because I can't be arsed. It's on page 550.
It's giving me a headache because they give you multiple ways to express similar/related ideas and then they pussyfoot around the differences.

I did check the yellow book and what they say is more or less what I wrote but I'm still not clear on some points. For example, they say that みたいだ and そうだ (and the derived adjectives) differ only in formality but here
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/similarity
they say that みたい implies "having the appearance of but not actually being". So what now?

And that section doesn't address っぽい or the other use of らしい. Do they detail it somewhere else because I couldn't find it. Or are there any other resources that properly explain it?
 

Alanae

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Sep 28, 2015
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wow thanks Resilient.
----------
re: using rikaisama when starting out.
One thing to keep in mind is that the default dictionary rikaisama (and pretty much every single other site/tool that uses/is a J>E dictionary is some form, eg. jisho.com) is edict.
While it's easy to implement in and to use to refresh your memory on words you already, it's not a dictionary I'd really reccomend using to learn new words.
This is because rather than it giving explanations on what the words mean, it instead only just gives a list of possible ways it could be translated to english.
this seems like it would be fine, but due to the fact that japanese words often have multiple meanings (which belongs to which english word? no way to tell), and that those meanings often only correspond to one of the meanings the english word has (which one? no way to tell), you'll run into problems with properly mapping the meaning of the words.
Leading to incertanity/doubt as to wether you actually read what you just read correctly or not, something I see often with people that use nothing but edict dictionaries.

The most effective way to deal with this would to use J>J dictionaries which properly explain the meanings without being forced to try to link it to english, However, this is probably still going to be difficult so a good halfway measure is to use something like the J>E dictionary 研究社和英大辞典.
Which combines english and (short) japanese explanations with a huge amount of example sentences so you can figure out how the word is used.

if you use the rikai*sama* version of rikai you can actually just import the dictionary in epwing format into it and use it like normal.
Make sure to add \n[・].+|ローマ.+|\〔.+?\〕|\n.+? .+" into the regular expression to remove a large part of the example sentences or most entries probably wont fit on your screen.
You can also use ebwin4 as a reader to make it easier to read the larger entries in full

-----------
re: paying for flashcards sites.

instead of looking for deals for lifetime registrations for services you'd probably only really need for a year or so you can also just try to use one of the core decks for anki instead for free.
here's a decent one: https://d.filebox.moe/xykzcyi.apkg
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I have been having some trouble with the "~like/ looks like" constructions. The problem is they are often taught separately and even when they are compared, the answers are somehow nebulous. So can someone please give me a clear answer on the differences between these 4 examples?

1.)田中さんらしい人を見た。
2.)田中さんみたいな人を見た。
3.)田中さんような人を見た。
4.)田中さんっぽい人を見た。
(ry
When you have multiple words that seem to have the same meaning (or seem to share just a few of them), usually the difference is one of nuance.
Like the others said above, its something you'll get a sense of it over time when reading and noticing in which situation which is used, but if you are curious to the difference and want to know so right away then trying to find the difference through the nuance differences of equivalent english words makes it tricky.
Like I said above, japanese words often don't map well onto english words so nuance differences also often are going to be made more tricky.
I'd reccomend trying to find the differences through japanese instead or a direct explanation of the differences in english.
usually searching for "A B 違う" will give you a few hits of somebody asking the exact same thing you were wondering (if you get 0 hits at all there's a chance that you might be the only one that thinks they're similar and you should probably look up the definitions in a J>J dictionary again)
in this case I founnd

らしい vs みたい https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1010706815?__ysp=44KJ44GX44GEIOOCiOOBhiDkvb/jgYTliIbjgZE=
っぽい vs らしい https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1012382965?__ysp=44KJ44GX44GEIOOBo+OBveOBhCDkvb/jgYTliIbjgZE=
よう vs みたい https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q118723816?__ysp=44G/44Gf44GEIOOCiOOBhiDkvb/jgYTliIbjgZE=
reading through these would probably help practise your japanese and teach you some japanese grammar terminoligy
tl;dr/tj;dr:
らしい vs みたい: 2 similar meanings here, with the first one, "seems like" as in "he seems like he's a rich guy" the difference is that らしい is based on hearsay and みたい is based on your own feelings.
second one is "like" as in "plays like a kid" where the difference is that らしい can be used with a positive (befitting of) nuance in the sense of like "X doing Y, is such an X-like thing to do"

ぅぽい vs らしい: ぅぽい is used for when something has a certain trend or is like something else to a certain degree, so you can't really use it on a noun with the noun itself like the example of らしい I gave above.

よう vs みたい = pretty much the same
 

Hypron

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May 9, 2012
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Thanks for the replies.
I'm asking about 上手い and 上手 because I fear that there might be a question in N4 where among the possible answers would be both of them so you might have to read between the lines in order to choose the correct one.
Look I know I'm over thinking it, it's one of my weaknesses , but I didn't find it unreasonable to ask.
I don't get hung up so much about it, but it was one of the questions I had and couldn't be answered by my sensei.
I'm not an expert on the JLPT, but having just passed N4 a few months ago I find it highly unlikely they'd test nuances like that. You don't need to read between the lines for the jlpt. The only place where I can see them giving you both those options is in the section where you need to select the proper reading for a word (e.g. they give you 上手 and you need to say whether it's じょうず or うまい, which is easy).
 

Porcile

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Oct 23, 2012
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Blind exposure seems like a very inefficient process. Like, how many examples are you going to need before you finally "get" minor differences. And then there's misuse or regional usage that further muddle it up.
Having clear rules and seeing how they are applied is, imho, much better than stumbling through it with some vague understanding.

I really think you first need to learn the subtleties before you can disregard them.
I don't know what you mean by "blind exposure". Here's a more pertinent question, did you ask a native speaker? You have overcomplicated a fairly simple set of grammar points. There's a reason that they lump it all together.

Could you tell a Japanese person learning English when they should use "that" or "which" as a relative pronoun? How to use "I will" and "I am going to" where the meaning is completely changed by using one or the other? Yes, there is a grammatical difference, but largely when we hear this we ignore it and concentrate on the overall meaning.
 

Atmej

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Sep 22, 2011
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When you have multiple words that seem to have the same meaning (or seem to share just a few of them), usually the difference is one of nuance.
Like the others said above, its something you'll get a sense of it over time when reading and noticing in which situation which is used, but if you are curious to the difference and want to know so right away then trying to find the difference through the nuance differences of equivalent english words makes it tricky.
Like I said above, japanese words often don't map well onto english words so nuance differences also often are going to be made more tricky.
I'd reccomend trying to find the differences through japanese instead or a direct explanation of the differences in english.
usually searching for "A B 違う" will give you a few hits of somebody asking the exact same thing you were wondering (if you get 0 hits at all there's a chance that you might be the only one that thinks they're similar and you should probably look up the definitions in a J>J dictionary again)
in this case I founnd

らしい vs みたい https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1010706815?__ysp=44KJ44GX44GEIOOCiOOBhiDkvb/jgYTliIbjgZE=
っぽい vs らしい https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1012382965?__ysp=44KJ44GX44GEIOOBo+OBveOBhCDkvb/jgYTliIbjgZE=
よう vs みたい https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q118723816?__ysp=44G/44Gf44GEIOOCiOOBhiDkvb/jgYTliIbjgZE=
reading through these would probably help practise your japanese and teach you some japanese grammar terminoligy
tl;dr/tj;dr:
らしい vs みたい: 2 similar meanings here, with the first one, "seems like" as in "he seems like he's a rich guy" the difference is that らしい is based on hearsay and みたい is based on your own feelings.
second one is "like" as in "plays like a kid" where the difference is that らしい can be used with a positive (befitting of) nuance in the sense of like "X doing Y, is such an X-like thing to do"

ぅぽい vs らしい: ぅぽい is used for when something has a certain trend or is like something else to a certain degree, so you can't really use it on a noun with the noun itself like the example of らしい I gave above.

よう vs みたい = pretty much the same
Thank you for taking the the time to reply. I think I'm much closer to "getting it" it now.
Believe me, I know all about googling "A B difference" and checking the example sentences in jisho :p
For now I try to avoid explanations in Japanese, especially when it comes to grammar, since I'm just a beginner and it will most likely result in needing another explanation for the explanation. Sometimes it's inevitable, though.
Shout out to the people that take the time answer the questions in English. Unfortunately, sometimes the language barrier makes their well intentioned efforts quite confusing but some of the explanations are so great that they make me want to shake the person's hand and thank them a thousand times.

I don't know what you mean by "blind exposure". Here's a more pertinent question, did you ask a native speaker? You have overcomplicated a fairly simple set of grammar points. There's a reason that they lump it all together.

Could you tell a Japanese person learning English when they should use "that" or "which" as a relative pronoun? How to use "I will" and "I am going to" where the meaning is completely changed by using one or the other? Yes, there is a grammatical difference, but largely when we hear this we ignore it and concentrate on the overall meaning.
I meant trying to figure out grammar thought exposure without really understanding/ studying it first. Especially if the difference is small, you are going to need very specific examples and hope that people actually know and appreciate it.

No, unfortunately I haven't had the chance to ask the right person. Is it even a good idea to ask just any native person about grammar? They can probably tell you what sound natural or how certain words feel but unless language is their field of expertise or interest they will probably be rather poor at explaining the trickier grammar rules and nuances. Because you simply understand your own native language rather than know the rules of it. At least that's true for me.

Even if I now disregard or don't know the exact differences between grammar points, it was still extremely helpful to be taught about them when I was studying English. My teacher didn't just go: "You use this for things that will happen in the future, and this, and this. Now stop bothering me and read a book or something to figure out how they are used." It was neatly structured with the rules and differences clearly laid out and thus much easier to follow. I don't know how you can argue against this.
 

Jintor

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Oct 22, 2009
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You're right in that just listening to a stream of Japanese where you don't recognise anything is of no help whatsoever. But in something where you already know that there are four different types of similar but different words/grammar structures, I think the most practice for internalisation is listening to actual usage by natural sources when they come up in context.

There is of course nothing wrong with asking for assistance and clarification, but I tend to find reading explanations is one thing and learning through trial, error, mistake and repetition quite another. Of course, the latter is much easier if you read the explanations first!
 

Eien1no1Yami

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I'm not an expert on the JLPT, but having just passed N4 a few months ago I find it highly unlikely they'd test nuances like that. You don't need to read between the lines for the jlpt. The only place where I can see them giving you both those options is in the section where you need to select the proper reading for a word (e.g. they give you 上手 and you need to say whether it's じょうず or うまい, which is easy).
Thanks, I asked because I heard from friends that as the JLPT progresses there will more and more questions where the possible answers are 4 words that all mean the same but have very small differences in use depending on the context.
My teacher says that N2 especially is flooded with questions like these xD.

Anyway, exams are approaching, so there will be some stress and questions like these, although silly,may eventually come up :p.

Again, thanks for all the replies guys!
 
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Thanks, I asked because I heard from friends that as the JLPT progresses there will more and more questions where the possible answers are 4 words that all mean the same but have very small differences in use depending on the context.
My teacher says that N2 especially is flooded with questions like that xD.
Nah, they'll be four different words which have entirely separate use cases but are translated similarly when completely devoid of context, or words with similar kanji or sounds.

Sounds like your teacher just has a chip on his shoulder about kanji/vocab.
 

Zefah

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Jan 7, 2007
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Thanks, I asked because I heard from friends that as the JLPT progresses there will more and more questions where the possible answers are 4 words that all mean the same but have very small differences in use depending on the context.
My teacher says that N2 especially is flooded with questions like that xD.

Anyway, exams are approaching, so there will be some stress and questions like these, although silly,may eventually come up :p.

Again, thanks for all the replies guys!
Maybe I'm not interpreting what you mean correctly, but I don't really recall these kind of questions coming up on the JLPT. I've only ever taken the old 1-kyuu once and the N1 once, but I feel like the questions were always pretty straightforward. Never really saw a situation where the possible answers are all synonyms with slight differences in nuance.
 

Eien1no1Yami

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Maybe I'm not interpreting what you mean correctly, but I don't really recall these kind of questions coming up on the JLPT. I've only ever taken the old 1-kyuu once and the N1 once, but I feel like the questions were always pretty straightforward. Never really saw a situation where the possible answers are all synonyms with slight differences in nuance.
That's exactly what I mean actually.
I will ask my teacher for an example and let you know.
 

Porcile

Member
Oct 23, 2012
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That's exactly what I mean actually.
I will ask my teacher for an example and let you know.
Such questions don't exist. Especially at n5/n4 level. If you think that's the case then your understanding of those words and grammar in the context of real Japanese isn't quite there yet. The language used in n4 is very plain and clear.
 

Resilient

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Eien, if you keep moving at this pace, stopping and starting over a small problem like this, you'll burn out within the year. It only gets worse as you go on. If your goal is to pass N4, you need to get a rough 60-70% understanding at the first look, accept it, then keep studying the rest of the stuff you need to pass - like reading comprehension, listening skills etc. 3/4 people have given you an answer to this which I feel explained it well. Stop sweating over it lol.

Also, don't get upset by this post, I'm not saying it to be mean. It will do you a favour. There are still things I read that have me scratching my head and comparing sentences, and after all that I'll only walk away understanding a tiny bit more - still not fully. It's normal. If you want to pass the exam, you need to push past it and accept that understanding those concepts will not come solely from book study, it will come over time through exposure.
 

Jintor

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Right. In the case of language especially, approximate knowledge is sufficient. It's far more important to have an overall understanding of something because you can go back and improve on nuances over time. It's much less efficient to sit there and get the nuances 100%, but then to still not be able to understand the rest of the content.

You want to get to a sufficient breadth of grammatical understanding as fast as possible. That will make it easier to get the depth you want as well.
 

Resilient

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Jan 4, 2010
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Right. In the case of language especially, approximate knowledge is sufficient. It's far more important to have an overall understanding of something because you can go back and improve on nuances over time. It's much less efficient to sit there and get the nuances 100%, but then to still not be able to understand the rest of the content.

You want to get to a sufficient breadth of grammatical understanding as fast as possible. That will make it easier to get the depth you want as well.
Yes - exactly this. Eien, please take this advice if you plan to continue studying Japanese seriously. Also, try and find a native Japanese tutor as fast as you can. I hope you aren't paying that guy you keep calling sensei.

sidenote, this is what expert tried to teach with the Whiteboard method. It was never meant to get someone fluent or even ready for the N1 exam for that matter. It was made to build a foundation and to that extent it worked great (in my experience). Though I'm convinced it was just a massive ruse he created to see if anybody would actually do it.
 

Eien1no1Yami

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Again guys thanks for the replies.

@Resilient I don't get upset at all.You could just easily post a simple answer and call it a day or even don't reply in the first place, but you didn't.
This means that you care and I appreciate it.


To give you an insight on why it may seem to you that I get stuck on those kind of small problems is because
in every lesson I get mentally prepared from my teacher that the next jlpt exams after N4 are going to be like the way I described above.
So you can see that I thought this was a serious hurdle in jlpt.

I know that people answered my question, I didn't ask for anything else.
But the posts that said that N2 doesn't have those kind of questions got me by surprise and I think you can see why now.

That's it actually, I'm not sweating at all about it.I may I have a little bit of stress because the exams are approaching but it's a normal stress that I think everyone has before an exam.

Does it seem from my posts that I'm THAT bothered by it?Sorry if it seemed that way to you :p.


Also, try and find a native Japanese tutor as fast as you can. I hope you aren't paying that guy you keep calling sensei.
Of course I'm paying him, it's not for free.Look I can try and explain to you how the system with the Japanese teachers, that do private lessons, works here (because it is a system)
but it is a whole another topic and I don't think a lot of people care about it.If you're interested in learning about it just P.M. me.
Long story short it's not easy to find a teacher here that knows both the Greek and Japanese language very well and is willing to do private lessons.
I'm considering the solution of going to a private language school after N4.

P.S. OK this an example of what I meant

壊れる means to be broken, broadly speaking. Eg:
壊れたテレビ = A broken TV. 故障したテレビ is also a valid alternative.

割れる is more specific and implies breaking something into pieces. It's generally used for fragile things, such as dishes or glass. It's interesting to notice that even if your TV screen is broken (as in cracked, 割れた), your TV may still work.

There was a question like that in JLPT where you had to choose between those 2 and you had to know this small detail.
Again me posting the example doesn't mean anything.I'm not sweating about it or anything and you already answered about it.I'm not expecting a reply.
But I had to give you an example of what me and my teacher had in mind.
 

urfe

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Dec 30, 2011
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Those two concepts aren’t really similar to me at all honestly.

The similarity is they both have the same English (break).

割れる can mean more than just shatter, but it used as shatter in this case.