Lessons from Africa (or how to prevent progress)

betrayal

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Here's a 6 minute long video about the problems many african countries are facing and why they fail to improve. It explains how donations can be bad and on a larger scale it shows how socialism and government regulations kill progress and keep people poor or send them on a death trip trying to find a better life elsewhere.

I highly encourage you to watch this short video, not only it is highly interesting, but because it is not only applicable to Africa, but to many western countries nowadays. It is also a great example for why sayings like "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." are very true.

 
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JordanN

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shows how socialism and government regulations kill progress and keep people poor or send them on a death trip trying to find a better life elsewhere.
This part confuses me.

If your country is struggling, why is the option to abandon it rather then... FIX IT?!?!?

This might actually be the answer to why Africa is struggling. To understand why nations fail, you have to look at human history.

The likes of the USA or Britain didn't spawn out of thin air. Hell, the video even mentioned that China & Singapore also use to be dirt poor but eventually they've also risen up.

The harsh truth that some on Neogaf might not like but it's 100% truth. You want a 1st world country? You have to actually build one to begin with. No, you don't run away from it, you have to stay and maintain all levels of society from not collapsing on itself.

For Africa, I don't believe in the colonial excuse. Especially when the same colonies left behind had railroads, hospitals, schools etc. What happen to them after 50 years when you're left such great technology but never hear about them again? Or another example, South Africa. A country that technically existed since the 1600s, and was by far the continent's example of a 1st world nation for most of its life.

Now fast forward to 2019, and you get news articles like this popping up.



We have to stop blaming others for why nations fail but instead, reflect from within in. The history of the world has been cruel to everyone with differing levels of unfairness. Yet that obviously hasn't stopped all nations from not succeeding.
 
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Jun 25, 2018
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Here's a 6 minute long video about the problems many african countries are facing and why they fail to improve. It explains how donations can be bad and on a larger scale it shows how socialism and government regulations kill progress and keep people poor or send them on a death trip trying to find a better life elsewhere.

I highly encourage you to watch this short video, not only it is highly interesting, but because it is not only applicable to Africa, but to many western countries nowadays. It is also a great example for why sayings like "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." are very true.

I don't agree with the conclusion being made. However to many rules can bring disaster. This sounds more like corrupted politicians than actually being about advocating the free market.

Perhaps your right that socialism is killing people abilities to thrive, but unsustaniable growth is killing our only habitable earth so really not that easy to just say its socialism being All bad.
 

GreyHorace

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The vid below opened my eyes to how counterproductive charity efforts were in Ethiopia. LiveAid had good intentions but in the end no good was achieved because Bob Geldof is a prick.

 

JordanN

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Also, in regards to the video mentioning how Africa also gets millions of dollars in aid, you'd think some of that money would at least go towards some kind of development?

Using "socialism/bad government" is not a good explanation.

The USSR under Stalin was hell on earth. He had no qualms about starving his own people or even killing off members of his own government. However, even that man still had the foresight to industrialize his nation and was even the first country to go into Space.

Meanwhile, I remember reading stories about newly elected African presidents and guess what the first stuff they did? Blow their GDP on useless ceremonies. Once again, who are we actually to blame for Africa's development status? The government/colonialism is only part of the problem. Exactly who do you think makes up government and thus set up all the laws?

You need people to actually plan ahead and engage in nation building. This is true for both socialist and capitalist/democratic governments.
 
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llien

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One could become a feminist before one learns how to write (notable thing about Rwanda is that henocide focused only people of one gender, so now 70% of the population are women):

Remember how Trudeau banned african boys from receiving foreign aid?
 
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betrayal

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This part confuses me.

If your country is struggling, why is the option to abandon it rather then... FIX IT?!?!?
I agree that people need to stay in their countries to fix it. But why this is not always the case was answered in the video. Government regulations and donations from foreign countries prevent people to make a living in these countries. That's why some people decide to leave the country.





I don't agree with the conclusion being made. However to many rules can bring disaster. This sounds more like corrupted politicians than actually being about advocating the free market.
This was also mentioned in the video. It's not the only reason, but corruption can thrive in countries with very strict regulations. It's logical and just a simple conclusion, when you think about it.


Perhaps your right that socialism is killing people abilities to thrive, but unsustaniable growth is killing our only habitable earth so really not that easy to just say its socialism being All bad.
What kind of unsustaniable growth do you mean? Unsustaniable growth in the form of education and jobs? This is great and it is not killing our habitable earth.
What is killing our habitable earth is keeping people dumb and don't provide work and opportunities. In that regard a higher education is directly linked to a lower birth rate, more wealth and a better life in general.
 
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dionysus

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I believe the biggest difference between 1st world and 3rd world is corruption and property rights. Even the "socialist" countries of Europe are very strong with private property rights and protecting private wealth. Humans are self interested. Societies benefit from turning that self-interest into productive ways. Being able to keep the fruit of your labor and investment encourages entrepreneurship which is the biggest driver of sustainable economic growth. If you cannot be self-interested in legal productive ways, the people will be self-interested in unproductive ways (graft, bribery, extortion, expropriation, etc.)

A society needs to have a legal framework that prevents extortion, theft, exploitation, etc. but provides rewards for innovation, risk taking, commerce, etc. It also needs to limit the rewards for governing to reasonable levels. A good ancillary indicator of a societies average prosperity is if the richest people around are in government or not. It is way better to have billionaires who have nothing to do with government than billionaires who got their money from government.
 
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llien

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I agree that people need to stay in their countries to fix it. But why this is not always the case was answered in the video. Government regulations and donations from foreign countries prevent people to make a living in these countries. That's why some people decide to leave the country.
My anecdotal evidence:

1) Foreign country aid actually helped and quite a bit
2) I still wanted to go to a better place (and since I was working in IT, it was rather easy and as legal as it gets)
 

dionysus

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Foreign aid is tricky. It needs to not undermine the local economy. One of the problems with USAID is it takes government subsidized food production here in the US and gives it away for free in impoverished areas. It helps starvation which is definitely a good thing, but it perpetuates the dependency on foreign aid because it destroys the market for locally grown crops. When most of your people are farmers, that is not a good thing. You fed some people, but you also bankrupted the local farmers, which destroys the local economy, and now more people are in danger of starving.
 
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I agree that people need to stay in their countries to fix it. But why this is not always the case was answered in the video. Government regulations and donations from foreign countries prevent people to make a living in these countries. That's why some people decide to leave the country.







This was also mentioned in the video. It's not the only reason, but corruption can thrive in countries with very strict regulations. It's logical and just a simple conclusion, when you think about it.




What kind of unsustaniable growth do you mean? Unsustaniable growth in the form of education and jobs? This is great and it is not killing our habitable earth.
What is killing our habitable earth is keeping people dumb and don't provide work and opportunities. In that regard a higher education is directly linked to a lower birth rate, more wealth and a better life in general.
I agree with all those observations but that wasn't how the video painted it for me. but you are quite right that poor education and poor wealth definitely are also causing great harm to Earth.
what i was having issues with is that i don't see the video as a great speech for being Against Socialism.

With higher education people can tolerate more rules and more rules makes sure that people don't break them for their own individual gain.
With high education people can't as easily be fooled so societies avoids corruption from their leaders.

So i mostly agree.
 

JordanN

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I agree that people need to stay in their countries to fix it. But why this is not always the case was answered in the video. Government regulations and donations from foreign countries prevent people to make a living in these countries. That's why some people decide to leave the country.
Look at where they're running to. Are they going to neighboring African countries?
In the video, I believe he showed those massive boats, so they're heading to Europe.

If the problem was just regulations/donations, why are these "refugees" having to skip entire continents to somehow get somewhere that's actually livable?

That doesn't tell me they are actually interested in fixing it. Also, it goes back to catch-22. How do we know these same people didn't vote for the problems in their country, but they now leave them to go vote for the same problems again, but in Western countries?

It's too big of a coincidence that there is not even one country in Africa for these people to flee to, to somehow prosper. Running all the way to Europe and North America (the same places that have welfare states by the way. If these people arrive in these countries with next to $0, who is expected to pay and accommodate for them?), they wont ever have the experience or understanding that 1st world countries don't just magically happen. It requires the population to stay where they are and directly address the root problems of why their nation is so unlivable.
 
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HarryKS

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It really depends on the regions. Africa isn't homogenous. It doesn't boil down to simply black vs white vs brown. North and South are fundamentally different. East and West, same.

The one common factor: people.
 

highrider

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There are great minds in Africa, but I think the problem comes down to percentages. There aren’t enough people there that are able to see the bigger picture, which is fucking hard to do when you’re living hand to mouth. It also seems like Africa is more than willing to sell of its rich resources to the Chinese, or anyone who can extract them. It’s depressing, because Africa could be a home of great societies and culture throughout, but they are stuck in this cycle of poverty, unable to get out. Imagine the lack of hope a person must have to risk death to get elephant tusks.
 
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petran79

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Farming subsidies can work but they also depend on the country


Carr credits the large increase in food production in Malawi to the country’s fertilizer and seed subsidy program. It should not be surprising that subsidies have such an effect, he says. “We easily forget that the fertility of soils in the UK, Europe, USA and Australia were built up through decades of government subsidies. Then we expect resource poor African farmers to achieve the same without them! It simply will not happen!” agrees Keith Shepherd of ICRAF.

Increasing agricultural production is a costly endeavor. A country struggling to meet food demands has few options. For example, Malawi’s options were to subsidize the farm industry or import more food. When determining whether to subsidize farming, policy makers, planners and agricultural economists need to consider the opportunity costs of not subsidizing, said Deborah Bossio of CIAT. It can be more costly to import food than to just subsidize the sector. After all, “where would agriculture be in India if it were not for the heavy subsidies that the government uses to support the sector, similarly the entire agricultural sector of the EU is dependent on subsidies” said WLE Interim Director, Andrew Noble. Perhaps we should be looking at ‘smart’ subsidies that can stimulate increases in agricultural productivity?
 

TheGreatYosh

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This part confuses me.

If your country is struggling, why is the option to abandon it rather then... FIX IT?!?!?

This might actually be the answer to why Africa is struggling. To understand why nations fail, you have to look at human history.

The likes of the USA or Britain didn't spawn out of thin air. Hell, the video even mentioned that China & Singapore also use to be dirt poor but eventually they've also risen up.

The harsh truth that some on Neogaf might not like but it's 100% truth. You want a 1st world country? You have to actually build one to begin with. No, you don't run away from it, you have to stay and maintain all levels of society from not collapsing on itself.

For Africa, I don't believe in the colonial excuse. Especially when the same colonies left behind had railroads, hospitals, schools etc. What happen to them after 50 years when you're left such great technology but never hear about them again? Or another example, South Africa. A country that technically existed since the 1600s, and was by far the continent's example of a 1st world nation for most of its life.

Now fast forward to 2019, and you get news articles like this popping up.



We have to stop blaming others for why nations fail but instead, reflect from within in. The history of the world has been cruel to everyone with differing levels of unfairness. Yet that obviously hasn't stopped all nations from not succeeding.
The Boer went to an empty land and built up what is now called South Africa. Not long after Apartheid it's being destroyed. Completely predictable.
 

appaws

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The Boer went to an empty land and built up what is now called South Africa. Not long after Apartheid it's being destroyed. Completely predictable.
There is so much information out there on this. Information that you are supposed to pretend you don't notice, or you are a BAD PERSON.

It's anecdotal, but I've heard Africans very frankly admit that they were better off under white rule. That there are deficiencies in African nations and their capability of maintaining a stable society. Of course, there is disagreement on whether these deficiencies are based in nature, nurture, or a combination of both.

There are no "solutions." Nobody in the west wants to be in charge of Africa anymore. Even the resource extraction available does not economically justify the costs. Europeans were, after all, losing their collective asses on colonialism before getting out of it. We need to just leave them alone and let them be themselves. All nations have their own unique genius and should have a right to cultivate it in their own way.
 
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Lanrutcon

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There is so much information out there on this. Information that you are supposed to pretend you don't notice, or you are a BAD PERSON.

It's anecdotal, but I've heard Africans very frankly admit that they were better off under white rule.
The numbers are pretty clear, at least when it comes to our economy.

This part confuses me.

If your country is struggling, why is the option to abandon it rather then... FIX IT?!?!?
This is straight up bullshit. 93% of the country is black. I, as a white person, have absolutely no say in how this country is run, how it changes or who gets to run it. Democracy means nothing in a country where where the ignorant masses outnumber everyone else. For every educated person of any color in this country, there are 5 rurals that can barely read the ballot and only know how to vote for the ruling party over and over again. Those 5 rurals don't give a shit about birth control. No movement I start will ever gain traction because I am in the minority and will always be that way. No opinion I voice will be taken seriously because I am white and Apartheid will never be forgotten. No support I give will make a difference because I am the middle-class.

I appreciate you first worlders taking interest in South Africa, but when you say shit like "You want a 1st world country? You have to actually build one to begin with" it just shows that you're completely out of touch. Talk to me again when the American Indian population outnumbers your race 9:1, controls the government and holds a grudge. Then we'll talk.

Edit: Sorry, touchy subject.
 
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hariseldon

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The numbers are pretty clear, at least when it comes to our economy.



This is straight up bullshit. 93% of the country is black. I, as a white person, have absolutely no say in how this country is run, how it changes or who gets to run it. Democracy means nothing in a country where where the ignorant masses outnumber everyone else. For every educated person of any color in this country, there are 5 rurals that can barely read the ballot and only know how to vote for the ruling party over and over again. Those 5 rurals don't give a shit about birth control. No movement I start will ever gain traction because I am in the minority and will always be that way. No opinion I voice will be taken seriously because I am white and Apartheid will never be forgotten. No support I give will make a difference because I am the middle-class.

I appreciate you first worlders taking interest in South Africa, but when you say shit like "You want a 1st world country? You have to actually build one to begin with" it just shows that you're completely out of touch. Talk to me again when the American Indian population outnumbers your race 9:1, controls the government and holds a grudge. Then we'll talk.

Edit: Sorry, touchy subject.
I have a good friend who is from South Africa and she tells a similar story - it's insane that a formerly prosperous country is being reduced to ruin in such a way.
 
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JordanN

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This is straight up bullshit. 93% of the country is black. I, as a white person, have absolutely no say in how this country is run, how it changes or who gets to run it. Democracy means nothing in a country where where the ignorant masses outnumber everyone else. For every educated person of any color in this country, there are 5 rurals that can barely read the ballot and only know how to vote for the ruling party over and over again. Those 5 rurals don't give a shit about birth control. No movement I start will ever gain traction because I am in the minority and will always be that way. No opinion I voice will be taken seriously because I am white and Apartheid will never be forgotten. No support I give will make a difference because I am the middle-class.

I appreciate you first worlders taking interest in South Africa, but when you say shit like "You want a 1st world country? You have to actually build one to begin with" it just shows that you're completely out of touch. Talk to me again when the American Indian population outnumbers your race 9:1, controls the government and holds a grudge. Then we'll talk.

Edit: Sorry, touchy subject.
Well that's not completely true. Economically speaking, White South Africans still make more money on average. We can extrapolate this and also assume that Whites are also were most of the tax revenue comes from (disproportionate to others).



Politically speaking though? Yeah, it's a lost cause.

However, I'm still conflicted on people abandoning their homelands they've had history in. This is not about hatred or lacking empathy, I say this for everyone.

Every culture on earth is unique and I think it's better for humanity we let them thrive in their own environment. Otherwise, everyone fleeing their countries to come to the West is just going to recreate the same problems we always see with "multiculturalism".

It's already happening in my own country. Palestinians and Israelis have come here and now they hold rallies demanding attention from everyone. It even gets so bad that it even leads to cases of terrorism happening.

Yet despite what's happening in Canada, I'm not going to leave it. We must all fight for our homelands, no matter how challenging it appears.
 
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Interesting to know that Africa is more bureaucratic then even the EU!

The problem is also the governments being old fashioned in terms of poor pay, discrimination and/or poor education (which is improving).

I agree with most of the video though. They need to have exceptions to imports so that it is easier to export their products better.
 

appaws

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The numbers are pretty clear, at least when it comes to our economy.



This is straight up bullshit. 93% of the country is black. I, as a white person, have absolutely no say in how this country is run, how it changes or who gets to run it. Democracy means nothing in a country where where the ignorant masses outnumber everyone else. For every educated person of any color in this country, there are 5 rurals that can barely read the ballot and only know how to vote for the ruling party over and over again. Those 5 rurals don't give a shit about birth control. No movement I start will ever gain traction because I am in the minority and will always be that way. No opinion I voice will be taken seriously because I am white and Apartheid will never be forgotten. No support I give will make a difference because I am the middle-class.

I appreciate you first worlders taking interest in South Africa, but when you say shit like "You want a 1st world country? You have to actually build one to begin with" it just shows that you're completely out of touch. Talk to me again when the American Indian population outnumbers your race 9:1, controls the government and holds a grudge. Then we'll talk.

Edit: Sorry, touchy subject.
It won't be American Indians...but what you are talking about will happen. It will just be Latin Americans and Mexicans. This will be the fate of every western country eventually, although the new owners will be different.

There is an alternative path to this scenario, but the men of the west are too cowardly to act. They probably will when it is too late.

If I were dictator of America, I would welcome all of you white South Africans with open arms and a fast track to citizenship. I know that is small consolation when you are losing the land where your forefathers lie, but at least your progeny could live in peace and liberty.
 

Blood Borne

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Also, in regards to the video mentioning how Africa also gets millions of dollars in aid, you'd think some of that money would at least go towards some kind of development?

Using "socialism/bad government" is not a good explanation.

The USSR under Stalin was hell on earth. He had no qualms about starving his own people or even killing off members of his own government. However, even that man still had the foresight to industrialize his nation and was even the first country to go into Space.

Meanwhile, I remember reading stories about newly elected African presidents and guess what the first stuff they did? Blow their GDP on useless ceremonies. Once again, who are we actually to blame for Africa's development status? The government/colonialism is only part of the problem. Exactly who do you think makes up government and thus set up all the laws?

You need people to actually plan ahead and engage in nation building. This is true for both socialist and capitalist/democratic governments.
I disagree. It's still Socialism/Big government. Stalin did a better job than African dictators, but the underlying objective fact is that lack of freedom and dictatorship leads to poverty, it puts a strain on wealth creation.

I'm from Nigeria, spent almost half of my life there. Nigeria and virtually all sub-Saharan African countries have zero freedom. Everything is owned by the government. You must get your local government blessing before you start any business and you must give him a cut from the profits monthly/annually (depending on your arrangements) in order to stay in business. They use all the money to splurge on crap for themselves. To put this into context on the lack of freedom in Africa, there is NOT ONE African country where you can openly criticise a government official. You will be hauled from your home and jailed or killed. Last week in Nigeria, a policeman posted an Instagram video saying that they've not been paid salary in 6 months, the following day he was arrested and no one knows if he is alive or not.

Wealth is not some mystical esoteric knowledge, it's simply just freedom. Let people be free to trade and do business and the community and nation will develop. Rwanda just instituted some economic freedom and they're beginning to develop. They are now producing phones. People need to be free. Big government always leads to corruption. It’s no mystery that lots of Nigerians and Africans are doing phenomenally well in western countries due to its economic freedom.
 
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Lanrutcon

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Well that's not completely true. Economically speaking, White South Africans still make more money on average. We can extrapolate this and also assume that Whites are also were most of the tax revenue comes from (disproportionate to others).



Politically speaking though? Yeah, it's a lost cause.

However, I'm still conflicted on people abandoning their homelands they've had history in. This is not about hatred or lacking empathy, I say this for everyone.

Every culture on earth is unique and I think it's better for humanity we let them thrive in their own environment. Otherwise, everyone fleeing their countries to come to the West is just going to recreate the same problems we always see with "multiculturalism".

It's already happening in my own country. Palestinians and Israelis have come here and now they hold rallies demanding attention from everyone. It even gets so bad that it even leads to cases of terrorism happening.

Yet despite what's happening in Canada, I'm not going to leave it. We must all fight for our homelands, no matter how challenging it appears.
What's happening in Canada is in no way even remotely comparable to South Africa. To think anything else is absolute nativity. If Canada is "challenging" then my country is finishing all 5 Souls games, back to back, without leveling or taking a hit. I'm not boasting or asking for sympathy here: I'm just stating the reality.

Let me tell you something about my "homeland". My culture is almost completely dead because it's synonymous with Apartheid and slavery. My native language won't be around in a few generations. My culture's history has already been rewritten in the school books. My culture has virtually no presence in modern media. Hell, the word "Boer" might as well be a swear word around here. I look around and I find absolutely nothing to be proud of as a South African citizen, much less an Afrikaner.

I look at places like your home, and it looks like a goddamn holiday despite its issues. Every year more people I know move to Australia. Or the UK. Or Canada.
 
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JordanN

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There is an alternative path to this scenario, but the men of the west are too cowardly to act. They probably will when it is too late.
If the likes of Brazil or South Africa are anything to go by, what's going to happen is people will just move to the most prosperous parts of their country and "wall" themselves off from other groups.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Though it does mean if you are born on the wrong side of the fence, you could be eternally fucked.

 
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Lanrutcon

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If the likes of Brazil are South Africa are anything to go by, what's going to happen is people will just move to the most prosperous parts of their country and "wall" themselves off from other groups.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Though it does mean if you are born on the wrong side of the fence, you could be eternally fucked.
He ain't wrong. I moved to a walled off complex with private security a few years ago and haven't looked back since. Crime is a way of life around here.
 
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JordanN

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What's happening in Canada is in no way even remotely comparable to South Africa. To think anything else is absolute nativity. If Canada is "challenging" then my country is finishing all 5 Souls games, back to back, without leveling or taking a hit. I'm not boasting or asking for sympathy here: I'm just stating the reality.
We're actually going down the same path you guys are. You are correct it's nowhere as severe, but the decline is getting more noticeable by the day.

In fact, if you come to Canada and tour some of our cities, you'll be surprised to see some similarities. There is definitely "self segregation" going on and most kids I knew growing up don't even live in the same city anymore.

Even recently, all the public Buses have been converted to have safety shields. This was never a thing 10 years ago but it's become more common.
 
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Cucked SoyBoy

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What's happening in Canada is in no way even remotely comparable to South Africa. To think anything else is absolute nativity. If Canada is "challenging" then my country is finishing all 5 Souls games, back to back, without leveling or taking a hit. I'm not boasting or asking for sympathy here: I'm just stating the reality.

Let me tell you something about my "homeland". My culture is almost completely dead because it's synonymous with Apartheid and slavery. My native language won't be around in a few generations. My culture's history has already been rewritten in the school books. My culture has virtually no presence in modern media. Hell, the word "Boer" might as well be a swear word around here. I look around and I find absolutely nothing to be proud of as a South African citizen, much less an Afrikaner.

I look at places like your home, and it looks like a goddamn holiday despite its issues. Every year more people I know move to Australia. Or the UK. Or Canada.

Yeah...sadly that's what happens when your people build a great civilization and then a few pathetic cucks like De Klerk decide to just give it all away.

It's a shame Europe, Canada and the US are all going down the same road.
 
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Prosperous countries have a high degree of intellectual capital among their populace. It's a problem without a solution, but it's really only a problem if you view it as something that needs to, or can be changed. If it's not a problem, then it's just another phenomena that can be observed and learned from.
 

appaws

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Prosperous countries have a high degree of intellectual capital among their populace. It's a problem without a solution, but it's really only a problem if you view it as something that needs to, or can be changed. If it's not a problem, then it's just another phenomena that can be observed and learned from.
I try to look at it not as a problem, but just as a reality. Large population groups are have different characteristics. They diverge from each other when separated over a long period of time.

From a religious point of view, or a secular one, either God or evolution gave groups the tools they need to adapt to diverse environments. Of course change can be achieved around the edges. And as a Christian I believe that God calls us to do corporal works of mercy...but I don't think that necessarily means the recipients of that mercy will be permanently uplifted to not need it any more. "The poor will always be with you." I believe that simple line is one of the most powerful warnings against utopian impulses.

We cannot make Africa "First World" no matter what we do. If we gave every dollar and resource of the west to Africa in a massive transfer payment it would be dissipated within a few decades and the status quo ante would return. (The same with reparations schemes for African Americans.) We can improve individual lives, and maybe things like infrastructure....but understand the reality that those will be ongoing projects and not capable of "raising" those nations to our level.

(Think of caring for a dog vs. raising a kid. Raising a kid eventually has a sunset, but with a dog you are in for the duration. The dog will never walk on two legs and go off to college.)
 

Davey

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This part confuses me.

If your country is struggling, why is the option to abandon it rather then... FIX IT?!?!?

This might actually be the answer to why Africa is struggling. To understand why nations fail, you have to look at human history.

The likes of the USA or Britain didn't spawn out of thin air. Hell, the video even mentioned that China & Singapore also use to be dirt poor but eventually they've also risen up.

The harsh truth that some on Neogaf might not like but it's 100% truth. You want a 1st world country? You have to actually build one to begin with. No, you don't run away from it, you have to stay and maintain all levels of society from not collapsing on itself.

For Africa, I don't believe in the colonial excuse. Especially when the same colonies left behind had railroads, hospitals, schools etc. What happen to them after 50 years when you're left such great technology but never hear about them again? Or another example, South Africa. A country that technically existed since the 1600s, and was by far the continent's example of a 1st world nation for most of its life.

Now fast forward to 2019, and you get news articles like this popping up.



We have to stop blaming others for why nations fail but instead, reflect from within in. The history of the world has been cruel to everyone with differing levels of unfairness. Yet that obviously hasn't stopped all nations from not succeeding.
While you'd be right when talking about a capitalist economy where growth and development is encouraged, it's (in reality) impossible when private owners are completely demonized and legal environment are set "in the name of people and equality".

And that's only the beginning of the ecuation... It's not as simple as saying "but get organized and fight back!"... Because that's exactly the virtually impossible part when dealing with these regimes these days...
 

JordanN

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While you'd be right when talking about a capitalist economy where growth and development is encouraged, it's (in reality) impossible when private owners are completely demonized and legal environment are set "in the name of people and equality".

And that's only the beginning of the ecuation... It's not as simple as saying "but get organized and fight back!"... Because that's exactly the virtually impossible part when dealing with these regimes these days...
How many people are fleeing Africa these days? Thousands? Millions?
Why can't none of them organize and take back even just ONE country?

You know the situation in Africa is beyond ridiculous when I rightfully pointed out that these people aren't just crossing countries, they're crossing ENTIRE continents.

And like I said, how do we know these same people didn't actually vote for the conditions in their country aren't coming to the West to do the same again here? Can you not see the anger now when it comes to the refugee crisis that we're letting millions of people in from these failing countries, that it brings up the same risk in Western countries if they ever outnumber us?

If these people coming here are really "future doctors and engineers" then they have enough skills to improve their own countries at a local level. Otherwise, the end game is the same. Country is ruined, no one stays behind to fix it, they move to another one, the cycle repeats.
 
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Davey

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How many people are fleeing Africa these days? Thousands? Millions?
Why can't none of them organize and take back even just ONE country?

You know the situation in Africa is beyond ridiculous when I rightfully pointed out that these people aren't just crossing countries, they're crossing ENTIRE continents.

And like I said, how do we know these same people didn't actually vote for the conditions in their country aren't coming to the West to do the same again here? Can you not see the anger now when it comes to the refugee crisis that we're letting millions of people in from these failing countries, that it brings up the same risk in Western countries if they ever outnumber us?

If these people coming here are really "doctors and engineers" then they have enough skills to improve their own countries at a local level. Otherwise, the end game is the same. Country is ruined, no one stays behind to fix it, they move to another one, the cycle repeats.
Been on that situation, it's not something one can just "explain", basically, the only thing you can think of is trying to not let your family starve and that will not wait for you improve your situation...

It's easy to not see the dificulty of a situation when one haven't lived that yet, but when everything is so against you that your only solution is to get out of your country, it's because there's a lot of shit happening that can't be explained in a single post (heck, even in a single book), like mafias, tyranic regime, overall disastrous economy (so no one is gonna buy your stuff), everything getting worse by multiples every day, your family is about to starve and the last amount of energy and sanity you keep with you is for trying to be the only rational person so you that can give them a better life... And in many cases you'd be the last hope they have...

Shit is to be experienced, unfortunately...

Be thankful you don't need to experience or understand it because if money is the worst of your problems, you're much less unfortunate than people living in a fucked country (I mean, a REALLY fucked one)...

Just today I was talking to a friend that left my house to gain more independence with his wife and he was really struggling with the situation but feeling much better since he at least see an oportunity to grow and he doesn't even have a chair to sit for the moment, he has a bed in a rented room which is enough for now even is he has everything else in our country, tho one prefers taking the risk than basically give up on life being there, not that we haven't done anything and "just ran" but regime solves easily by shooting at protesters heads...

I've been one in protests for years until I knew there was no pacific solution and that we didn't have the power to solve it, unfortunately...

And countries in Africa are way worse in some aspects like natural resources...

Also, I'm not pro-refugees, I'd change a refugee status for an actually working solution on the political situation in my country every day though there are no politics that benefits from change of regime so we're basically fucked since the local leaders get silenced once they reach enough influence to be considered a problem, I'm sure people in those countries in Africa would do the same... Well, at least the not terrorists ones since it's a true that they use groups of migrants to cover their status and pass through borders...

BTW, I hope the best for the people in Africa, I won't say that people "deserves to be fucked by the government they choose" because when people is in a difficult situation, most of the time believing is what they feel is left... be it true or not (most of the time it's not, but politics act on emotions, not rationale)
 

JordanN

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Be thankful you don't need to experience or understand it because if money is the worst of your problems, you're much less unfortunate than people living in a fucked country (I mean, a REALLY fucked one)...
I can answer this question for you.

If my country were to collapse tomorrow, I'm not going to run. Even if a dictatorship was installed, gangs are rampant, I'm starving and health is failing, it's not in my blood to abandon an entire nation.

Because if you run away, you're not just leaving people behind, you're leaving behind entire history.

Think about that for a second. Do the people who leave Africa not think about their own history? Do they not want to preserve their own culture, architecture, traditions etc?

When you run to the West, you are not running to African culture. You are literally running to completely alien lands that you must either learn the local traditions quickly or face being an outsider forever.

And that is how we end up with the current "diversity" crisis. Millions of people coming from around the world and not integrating literally leads to a culture war.

Once again, it's not that I don't think these people are desperate and obviously want to live a better life. But if none of them can even stay behind and fix even just ONE African country, then what history are they interested in? What civilization are they expecting to last and be preserved? Otherwise, their refuge is temporary untill they vote back the same problems that ruined their own continent but now it happens globally.
 
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Lanrutcon

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I can answer this question for you.

If my country were to collapse tomorrow, I'm not going to run. Even if a dictatorship was installed, gangs are rampant, I'm starving and health is failing, it's not in my blood to abandon an entire nation.
You're adorable., completely naive, totally wrong and you'd buckle in a second in said scenario. Everyone is Braveheart until their family is threatened and the streets are burning. You won't be thinking about preserving history when they take away your home, your possessions and your means of earning a living.

Telling people to stay in scenarios where they're fucked when they can leave for another country where things are 100% better is bloody stupid. And what the hell are "alien lands"? It takes a South African all of 3 minutes to adapt to a country like Australia. I know people who immigrated and the toughest thing they had to adapt to was the change chocolate brand names. You want to go live in Dubai, sure. It's a different way of life. But the UK? Canada? New Zealand? No problem. Just tell me which side of the road to drive on and we're golden.

It just sounds like you don't want people to make educated decisions about which country they live in. You've got some romantic notions that I pray you never have to test irl.
 

JordanN

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You're adorable., completely naive, totally wrong and you'd buckle in a second in said scenario. Everyone is Braveheart until their family is threatened and the streets are burning.
So group up with other people who share similar ideals?
Is that not how civil war works? If a country falls part, it's not because everyone agreed to have one dictator rule over them for life. Even in Nazi Germany, there was still an active resistance for removing Hitler, even among his highest ranking generals.

Lanrutcon said:
You won't be thinking about preserving history when they take away your home, your possessions and your means of earning a living.
If they're taking everything I ever made, why wouldn't I just fight back at this point? You wouldn't let a stranger rob you and get away with it. You would still resist until you recover back your belongings.
"But they have a gun/they can overpower you!"

Ok, then come back when you do have the appropriate means to counter them.

Telling people to stay in scenarios where they're fucked when they can leave for another country where things are 100% better is bloody stupid. And what the hell are "alien lands"? It takes a South African all of 3 minutes to adapt to a country like Australia.
Well when the cultures are similar, then it's obviously not as difficult to transition. But try going from South African culture to Japan. It's a completely different way of life with its own history, even if your life is more safe, you are still always going to be "that one South African guy surrounded by 99% Japanese".

It just sounds like you don't want people to make educated decisions about which country they live in.
I want people to make educated decisions on why are they giving up their ancestral homelands and way of life, to join a foreign one.

Especially since my logic applies to the world at large. If all 1 billion Africans left their continent and moved to the Western countries, what do you think is going to happen? It's going to be chaos at every level, government services will be strained having to provide welfare to people with very low incomes, there will be increased competition for jobs and housing, and more important, the culture of the West will be at odds with the new culture being imported and demographically outpacing the natives.

It's just not sustainable. It's better we fight to make African countries more sustainable then going with the short term solution of just bringing everyone here.
 
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JordanN

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And countries in Africa are way worse in some aspects like natural resources...
By the way, I forgot to talk about this point.

This is a myth. Africa is rich with natural resources. The Congo alone has an estimated $24 TRILLION in minerals just sitting there.

The people there just don't actually do anything with them. If you follow the news, you will read that it's China that's been going to continent and is now slowly trying to harvest them all.

Before China, it was the Europeans who built large trade networks and extracted things like rubber and even uranium used to make the atomic bombs.

But even if you still are diehard in believing that Africa's problems are caused by lack of natural resources, why aren't they doing what Hong Kong or Licenstein does and invest in financial or technological industries?

There is no excuse. We have to stop this idea that a group of people are endlessly not at fault. I'll say it again, world history is not fair. 1st world nations do not poof themselves out of thin air.

When the first settlers came to North America, all they saw was endless trees and forests. It took people to tame the land and build civilization. Africans need to copy this. I don't care if they have to even copy the same level of development America was in the 1800s. It would still be a huge upgrade for African countries to have their own infrastructure, schools, hospitals, a working and non-corrupt democratic government and an actual industry to profit from.

 
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eot

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Because if you run away, you're not just leaving people behind, you're leaving behind entire history.

Think about that for a second. Do the people who leave Africa not think about their own history? Do they not want to preserve their own culture, architecture, traditions etc?

When you run to the West, you are not running to African culture. You are literally running to completely alien lands that you must either learn the local traditions quickly or face being an outsider forever.
This is such bullshit. History and culture are luxuries not afforded to people struggling to survive.
 

JordanN

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This is such bullshit. History and culture are luxuries not afforded to people struggling to survive.
History and culture is the only reason these people running actually have a place to stay as opposed to the world just being endless fighting 24/7.

Think about it. It is actually generosity that Western countries can support the entire world instead of just being highly selective of who is actually allowed inside.

But if Western countries fall, what happens next?

This is the message I'm trying to convey to everyone. These problems can't be infinite. Millions of people moving from one continent to another just isn't sustainable. If they don't actually start fixing their problems at home, then we're going to see the same problems repeat elsewhere.
 
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eot

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Millions of people moving from one continent to another just isn't sustainable.
I didn't say that, but I still understand why people flee, and frankly speaking I don't believe for one second that your moral convictions would hold up in such a situation.
 

JordanN

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I didn't say that, but I still understand why people flee, and frankly speaking I don't believe for one second that your moral convictions would hold up in such a situation.
Trust me, I am Neogaf's most consistent user.

I had people tell me if I want to run away to Japan, and I still said "No, they have their own culture, I want to preserve my own".

If I was African, I would be furious why millions of my own people would rather abandon an entire continent then actually try and stay behind and fix it. By going to a foreign land, you will be seen as an outsider. Like a guest at a stranger's house. Even if you're invited, it's not your property. It's not your rules. You either live by them or disobey and the people can evict you if they ever wish.

They've been living there for thousands of years so to suddenly believe that "Uh, Africa is unlivable guys, you must now move to the next continent" is completely unthinkable. No, that is their homeland, that is where most of their culture came from. If they don't want to save that, why should I believe the same is not going to happen again in Western countries?
 
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JordanN

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Please cite your sources.
JordanN said:
I have a ONE YEAR TRACK RECORD record of making this prediction. And I have not been disproven in the slightest.
JordanN said:
This thread isn't about me, but I do like to take opportunities and prove others wrong with facts, especially when it's been shown from time to time, Reset users like to come in here with their disinformation campaigns.
There's nothing more that makes Reset users angry is to see a consistent intellectual strike down their social justice beliefs, especially when said freethinking is seen as being a "trashfire".
 
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Turnt

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You’re only observing yourself as part of this. One user among a community of thousands. Seems like a flawed methodology which is perhaps intentionally designed to give the result you are looking for. Or perhaps you are doing it without even realising. You need to have a more logical thought process which maintains some objectivity and doesn’t just pat yourself on the back or allow you to make grandiose statements. I wonder if you regularly visiting Resetera has led to you taking this sort of approach.
 

JordanN

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Here's the post where I said I prefer to stay in Canada and not Japan.

If these things present too much problems then once again, why not return back to the Middle East? If I moved to Japan and I find life there difficult, I wouldn't demand the Japanese change their beliefs to appease mine. I would rather move back to Canada where I am use to a culture that I grew up and was surrounded with.
So yes, I am highly consistent.
 

Turnt

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Here's the post where I said I prefer to stay in Canada and not Japan.



So yes, I am highly consistent.
Your point wasn't that you are highly consistent. It's that you are Neogaf's most consistent user. This is a bold claim that you seem unable to back up and instead just offer up a hypothetical example about you moving to another country and how you think you might react to that. You aren't addressing the thousands of other users on this website. What effort did you put in to measuring their consistency? Are you really so sure of yourself that you just assume you are more consistent than everyone else here? That you must be the special one and that you have to declare it to be so when questioned? That's the self-assuredness of someone who regularly visits Resetera.
 

JordanN

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You aren't addressing the thousands of other users on this website.
Then let one of them speak up and offer a counter claim then.
I even mentioned that I've made a point that I remained the same for 12 months. This instantly disqualifies anyone who just created an account but has only been active for less time.
 
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