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[SatansReverence]

So with the recent shooting in Florida and the advent of "NuGaf", I think it's high time we have a level headed discussion about gun law, control and culture in America.

Any outside observer can say that the constant bickering between pro and anti gun crowds is both ineffective and tiresome. things such as "Ban all guns!" and "Look at Straya!" do little to convince the pro gun crowd, likewise "but muh 2nd mendmant!" doesn't help either.

We can all agree that the gun problem in America isn't ideal and there are changes that could be made.

So, lets discuss!

 

[SatansReverence]

On the topic of what weapons should be allowed to be owned by the general populace, the only weapons I would consider further restricting (not out right banning) are semi automatic rifles which would include the often mentioned AR15.

Personally, I don't see the need for a weapon that is A) easy to aim B) easy to fire quickly C) has high capacity quickly exchanged magazines. These weapons don't serve a huge purpose in home and personal defence, but are good for hunting and sport shooting. I would propose that weapons such as this would require being locked in safes when not used. By restricting I mean a basic class of license for these weapons that is below automatic weapons licenses.

Weapons such as shotguns and handguns however are well suited for home and personal defence. I know for certain there are places in Australia I would sleep much easier at night knowing I had a firearm for personal defence in my bedside table. As such I would disagree on blanket "semi automatic" weapon bans and gun safe laws.

 

[Lupingosei]

As a Swiss for me, this is very strange topic. We also have a very active gun culture and you can learn shooting here as a 15 year old. In the summer you will see a lot of teens riding their bikes or motorbikes with an army rifle on their back. One of the biggest events of the state I work in is paired with a shooting competition for teens.

You can own rifles and guns in Switzerland, but you have to register them. For certain guns you will need a permission and large automatic rifles and guns are not allowed to own. But there are quite a lot of gun stores exiting here as well and for EU standards our gun laws are very liberal.

However, we also have a very good health care system and also a good system for mental health. Also the mentality is still not everybody against everybody and everybody is out there to murder me. So we have a very low crime rate. However most suicides and murders are committed with guns unlike in other European countries, because they are easier to get.

So gun control can be done liberal way, if you change the environment. If people do not feel alone or desperate they are less likely to commit gun violence. But if you are not ready to do that, well it is getting hard.

 

[F0rneus]

Gun laws in the US need to change. I don't have any problems with gun ownership. On the contrary actually, I enjoy firearms a lot. I could spend hours waxing poetic about the 1911 and all of it's versions. But the current laws in America just don't cut it. There's a reason why the country has the most mass shootings, and it isn't something in the water. It's the abundance of guns, and the shitty laws about them.

Removing guns? No. Better laws and more control? Yes.

 

[SatansReverence]

As a Swiss for me, this is very strange topic. We also have a very active gun culture and you can learn shooting here as a 15 year old. In the summer you will see a lot of teens riding their bikes or motorbikes with an army rifle on their back. One of the biggest events of the state I work in is paired with a shooting competition for teens.

You can own rifles and guns in Switzerland, but you have to register them. For certain guns you will need a permission and large automatic rifles and guns are not allowed to own. But there are quite a lot of gun stores exiting here as well and for EU standards our gun laws are very liberal.

Weapon registration is also a topic worth discussing. I would say weapons should require registration. and while the "gunshow loophole" seems to be a myth, private sales of weapons does appear to be completely uncontrolled which I think is a bad idea. If you wish to sell your guns it should be through a dealer imo.

However, we also have a very good health care system and also a good system for mental health. Also the mentality is still not everybody against everybody and everybody is out there to murder me. So we have a very low crime rate. However most suicides and murders are committed with guns unlike in other European countries, because they are easier to get.

So gun control can be done liberal way, if you change the environment. If people do not feel alone or desperate they are less likely to commit gun violence. But if you are not ready to do that, well it is getting hard.

AFAIK the background checks in America already go a long way of preventing the legal sale of weapons to violent criminals, I am however unsure if said checks include medical checks and believe mental health disorders should prevent firearm ownership and the healthcare system could do a better job at diagnosing said mental disorders.

 

[TheGraykid]

It's weird. It feels like American Conservatives aren't willing to make stricter gun control laws or invest money in helping people in any way. You can't have scant mental healthcare investment and loose gun control laws and expect this not to happen.

 

[F0rneus]

It's weird. It feels like American Conservatives aren't willing to make stricter gun control laws or invest money in helping people in any way. You can't have scant mental healthcare investment and loose gun control laws and expect this not to happen.

I'd be interested in conservative opinions on this. Apparently there's no gun issue, but a mental health one. So...why is it ok for Trump to strike down regulations that prevented people with mental issues from getting guns?

 

[Lupingosei]

I'd be interested in conservative opinions on this. Apparently there's no gun issue, but a mental health one. So...why is it ok for Trump to strike down regulations that prevented people with mental issues from getting guns?

Yes, that is really strange. You can have a liberal gun law, but you have to create a right environment for it.

 

[grumpyGamer]

You can´t have liberal gun law, because the people are very incoherent, they are happy, sad, depressed, and suddenly want to kill, because they got cheated on.
There should be a license or something to make guns harder to get.
And don´t come talk about 2 amendment, because with the country as it is, you don´t even have amendments any more, they were all stolen or are pure fiction.

 

[rykomatsu]

[

I'd be interested in conservative opinions on this. Apparently there's no gun issue, but a mental health one. So...why is it ok for Trump to strike down regulations that prevented people with mental issues from getting guns?

The regulation that was struck down was similar to an existing Dept. of Veterans Affairs program - they classified those that couldn't manage their own finances as "mentally defective". This puts a good number of people at risk of having their 2a rights revoked without due process or notification.

When you consider what the real purpose of the 2nd amendment is, the current gun control laws are already too restrictive.

The notion that a "tyrannical gov't wouldn't happen in the modern US" is completely invalid considering you had a current administration weaponize intelligence agencies to meddle with an election against an opposition party.

 

[Alx]

There's a reason why the country has the most mass shootings, and it isn't something in the water. It's the abundance of guns, and the shitty laws about them.

To be fair I don't think the guns and weak gun laws are the only reason of mass shootings, but they're clearly what makes them so deadly and frequent.
As a European having strict gun laws seems natural, but I'm aware of the complex American context. I think a first step would be to be more specific instead of talking about "guns" in general, and focus on the different purposes. Some people want their guns for hunting, leisure, self-defense, "national protection", ... I read people using the second amendment as a blanket justification for all those uses, but it doesn't seem appropriate.

 

[llien]

As a Swiss for me, this is very strange topic. We also have a very active gun culture and you can learn shooting here as a 15 year old. In the summer you will see a lot of teens riding their bikes or motorbikes with an army rifle on their back. One of the biggest events of the state I work in is paired with a shooting competition for teens.

You can own rifles and guns in Switzerland, but you have to register them. For certain guns you will need a permission and large automatic rifles and guns are not allowed to own. But there are quite a lot of gun stores exiting here as well and for EU standards our gun laws are very liberal.

Have you looked at firearm related death rates by country?

(deaths per 100'000 citizens.)
Germany: 1.01
Switzerland: 3.01
United States: 10.54
Brazil: 21.2

Note death by firearms is not the same as murder (people die in accidents).
Curious that decpite firearm related death rates in Germany are 3 times lower than in Switzerland, homicide rates are actually higher:

Germany: 0.86
Switzerland: 0.71
United States: 5
Brazil: 22

However, we also have a very good health care system and also a good system for mental health.

I think average Swiss have a lot less stress than average american, healthcare is somewhat secondary here. More stress = more people with mental health issues.

 

[Lupingosei]

Have you looked at firearm related death rates by country?

Yes, I did. Even mentioned it.

I think average Swiss have a lot less stress than average american, healthcare is somewhat secondary here. More stress = more people with mental health issues.

We have a lot of stress as well, but also a social safety net. So if you have bad luck you will not have to start cooking crystal meth.

 

[RafterXL]

In my family pretty much every hunts, so I can appreciate the want to own a rifle for that purpose. Beyond that there is really no need for the average citizen to own anything else. Maybe a shotgun, or revolver, for home defense.

Joe Homeowner doesn't need a Glock19 or AR15 for self defense and neither is a hunting weapon, so there's literally no reason for private citizens to own them.

We don't have to ban all guns but the amount of varieties you can buy that serve no purpose other than to kill other people is absurd.

 

[appaws]

I'm a Second Amendment absolutist. I have been my entire life, and have been very upfront about it, even when being slaughtered by the crowd on oldGAF. I am an NRA life member and donor above the required dues, along with my wife.

We are the freest country on earth because we retain the idea that deadly force should not be a monopoly in the hands of the state. I, and a huge swath of my countrymen, am not willing to give that up. Registration schemes are just a prelude to confiscation, and frankly let me tell you that confiscation=civil war.

In my family pretty much every hunts, so I can appreciate the want to own a rifle for that purpose. Beyond that there is really no need for the average citizen to own anything else. Maybe a shotgun, or revolver, for home defense.

Joe Homeowner doesn't need a Glock19 or AR15 for self defense and neither is a hunting weapon, so there's literally no reason for private citizens to own them.

We don't have to ban all guns but the amount of varieties you can buy that serve no purpose other than to kill other people is absurd.

You don't get to decide what another citizen "needs." Rosa Parks didn't "need" to sit in the front of the bus...but she wanted to and it was her God-given RIGHT to. That is enough.

Plus, you are wrong. Lots of people hunt with AR pattern rifles. It's very common.

 

[Nicktendo86]

It almost feels like it is too late to do anything now. There seems to be so many guns in circulation that even if a ban was put in place or sale were restricted there are so many out there is wouldn't make a difference. Honestly have no idea what the solution is.

 

[StrategyFan]

a reasonable starting position would be to have gun legislation decided by some process that actually involves voters from 2018 instead of 1780

then we could observe how that works and make changes based on data/facts/etc.

 

[Alx]

We are the freest country on earth because we retain the idea that deadly force should not be a monopoly in the hands of the state.

Deadly violence by whom and against whom ? And the armed representatives of the state are also specifically selected and trained, they're not giving weapons to any civil servant. Why can't it be true for civilians too ?

 

[Amory]

I think what makes me so angry is how blatantly republicans tell us that they don't really care when this happens.

You have constituents literally begging for them to do something, and in response we're dismissed as politicizing a tragedy. We're told it's a mental health issue and so we ask "ok so can you address that?"

And the answer is also no.

What about just banning bump stocks?

Also no.

It's infuriating.

 

[Sosokrates]

Someone needs to figure out a way where making guns safer will make the gun companies more money.
For example maybe semi auto guns need to be microchiped so they lock out in public areas, apart from gun clubs, but Im sure people can come up with better ideas then my example.However, capitalism can be very efficient.

 

[Amory]

And you know, democrats aren't much better. If they actually prioritized this issue for more than a couple days after a mass shooting occurred, maybe we could get something done in the long term.

Instead they'll instantly lose focus the next time the president walks up to a microphone and cuts a wet McDonald's fart into it, or whatever ridiculous bullshit he pulls next.

 

[TheMikado]

I'd be interested in conservative opinions on this. Apparently there's no gun issue, but a mental health one. So...why is it ok for Trump to strike down regulations that prevented people with mental issues from getting guns?

All the conservatives in the thread so far seem to be for gun controls such as registration so which conservatives are against stricter gun controls?

 

[harrisk954]

I'll tell you the problem in this country... it is the gun lobby -- the NRA. They funnel tens of millions of dollars to support (mostly) republican candidates who don't have the balls to stand up to them. If they do, the NRA will run another republican in the primaries against them. So that even when we had a president (Obama) who was a proponent of sensible gun laws (such as more stringent background checks), nothing gets done. We now have a president who has zero leadership ability and has yet to comment on the issue and has not even brought it up again since the Las Vegas mass shooting. We have easy access to assault-style weapons in this country that can be easily modified to be fully automatic weapons using simple cheap devices such as bump stocks. We have the misdirection already, just one day after this awful shooting, from the right wing media focusing on mental health issues, instead on what the real problem is: unbridled access to guns with virtually little controls. Even if people had reported this scumbag in Parkland (down the street from where I grew up), the police could not have legally taken his guns (that he purchased legally) away from him even though he had a history of mental health issues and was under treatment for those issues, with a social media history showing nothing but troubling images and comments, where everyone that knew him said that he was a dangerous person.

So, when the "President" tweets this morning about mental health issues (while watching Fox and Friends), he is once again missing the point. And, when the "President" has yet to make a statement about this tragedy, he is once again failing.

We need Congress to do something to limit access to those who should never have the ability to get these weapons and close the loopholes that allow the purchase of guns with limited background checks in the majority of states. I'm no expert and I don't know what will work best without "violating" the 2nd Amendment, but there are professionals who do have ideas. Now Congress needs to take action instead of cowering in the corner and sending "thoughts and prayers" or this is going to keep happening and happening and happening -- our children will continue to die.

Someone needs to figure out a way where making guns safer will make the gun companies more money.
For example maybe semi auto guns need to be microchiped so they lock out in public areas, apart from gun clubs, but Im sure people can come up with better ideas then my example.However, capitalism can be very efficient.

Guns can't be made "safer"... the purpose of a gun is to shoot it. The purpose of an AR15 like this guy used in Parkland is to kill. Period.

 

[TheShadowLord]

you can't even have the cdc do studies regarding gun violence, and that has nothing to do with takings one's gun rights away.

 

[The Giant]

Burn the 2nd amendment.

 

[appaws]

Deadly violence by whom and against whom ? And the armed representatives of the state are also specifically selected and trained, they're not giving weapons to any civil servant. Why can't it be true for civilians too ?

Training is good. Training requirements required by the state just become a defacto limit on citizens owning firearms.

All the conservatives in the thread so far seem to be for gun controls such as registration so which conservatives are against stricter gun controls?

Trust me, no they aren't.

you can't even have the cdc do studies regarding gun violence, and that has nothing to do with takings one's gun rights away.

Go do all the studies you want...! Nobody is stopping you. Ask Michael Bloomberg for some grant money, he loves funding restrictions on our human rights. Why do you think it has to be the CDC who does a study? And why does it require our tax money to "study" ways to restrict our rights? Do it with your own money.

 

[Sosokrates]

I'll tell you the problem in this country... it is the gun lobby -- the NRA. They funnel tens of millions of dollars to support (mostly) republican candidates who don't have the balls to stand up to them. If they do, the NRA will run another republican in the primaries against them. So that even when we had a president (Obama) who was a proponent of sensible gun laws (such as more stringent background checks), nothing gets done. We now have a president who has zero leadership ability and has yet to comment on the issue and has not even brought it up again since the Las Vegas mass shooting. We have easy access to assault-style weapons in this country that can be easily modified to be fully automatic weapons using simple cheap devices such as bump stocks. We have the misdirection already, just one day after this awful shooting, from the right wing media focusing on mental health issues, instead on what the real problem is: unbridled access to guns with virtually little controls. Even if people had reported this scumbag in Parkland (down the street from where I grew up), the police could not have legally taken his guns (that he purchased legally) away from him even though he had a history of mental health issues and was under treatment for those issues, with a social media history showing nothing but troubling images and comments, where everyone that knew him said that he was a dangerous person.

So, when the "President" tweets this morning about mental health issues (while watching Fox and Friends), he is once again missing the point. And, when the "President" has yet to make a statement about this tragedy, he is once again failing.

We need Congress to do something to limit access to those who should never have the ability to get these weapons and close the loopholes that allow the purchase of guns with limited background checks in the majority of states. I'm no expert and I don't know what will work best without "violating" the 2nd Amendment, but there are professionals who do have ideas. Now Congress needs to take action instead of cowering in the corner and sending "thoughts and prayers" or this is going to keep happening and happening and happening -- our children will continue to die.



Guns can't be made "safer"... the purpose of a gun is to shoot it. The purpose of an AR15 like this guy used in Parkland is to kill. Period.

My example clearly shows what I meant by "safer".
So while the destructive caperbility of the weapon would not be reduced. If the weapon does not funtion in places where innocent people gather, these types of shooting would not happen.

 

[Deleted member 738645]

We are the freest country on earth

No you are not.

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

The thoughts about how free the US is is hilarious to me. Like Jim Jefferies once said, some americans probably cum in their pants by the mention of "freedom".

 

[Blam]

It's way too lax to buy guns in America and that needs to change. There's no reason why making it harder for people who have intent to kill others is a bad thing and why it's being pranced as a wish to Satan when it is brought up.

The gun laws should be more strict but imo only if you were to buy them.

 

[TheShadowLord]

Training is good. Training requirements required by the state just become a defacto limit on citizens owning firearms.



Trust me, no they aren't.



Go do all the studies you want...! Nobody is stopping you. Ask Michael Bloomberg for some grant money, he loves funding restrictions on our human rights. Why do you think it has to be the CDC who does a study? And why does it require our tax money to "study" ways to restrict our rights? Do it with your own money.

Where's the connection that allowing cdc to do research equals to restricting gun rights?

 

[Deleted member 738645]

I have read that in the US the government can't even take away guns from ISIS folks. If that's true or not I don't know, someone help me here.

 

[harrisk954]

I have read that in the US the government can't even take away guns from ISIS folks. If that's true or not I don't know, someone help me here.

Pretty much. The laws vary from state to state -- some stronger than others -- but there is very little that they can do take away guns unless the person is a convicted felon, with few exceptions. Doctors are not even allowed to ask if a patient owns a gun (even if they appear to pose a danger!) The Governor of Florida, RIck Scott, is fighting to keep that law in place!

 

[Snoopycat]

My thought is that there is a lot of empty space in America and a lot of people living in remote areas who can't rely on police protection. They should be allowed guns to defend themselves. Them city folk though, no, they don't need guns. So I think the best solution is to ban guns from cities and heavily populated areas.

 

[Alx]

Training is good. Training requirements required by the state just become a defacto limit on citizens owning firearms.

Well yes there should be a defacto limit on citizens owning firearms, as there is a defacto limit on civil servants owning firearms : "you must be skilled and responsible enough". Now the question would be "who would enforce that limit to make sure that weapons aren't misused ?".
For such situations it's usually the task of the state/government. If you don't trust them specifically because you consider weapons to be a counter-power, then somebody else has to. But it's more a question of "who needs to control that ?" rather than "there shouldn't be any control at all".

 

[Deleted member 738645]

Pretty much. The laws vary from state to state -- some stronger than others -- but there is very little that they can do take away guns unless the person is a convicted felon, with few exceptions. Doctors are not even allowed to ask if a patient owns a gun (even if they appear to pose a danger!) The Governor of Florida, RIck Scott, is fighting to keep that law in place!

Wtf, this is terrible. Isn't disarming ISIS folks a good thing or are the US on #TeamISIS as soon as it comes to gun control?

 

[TheMikado]

Ok so help me straighten this out. CDC research into guns and mental health should not be allowed? Further gun registration should not be allowed?

Please explain why these are bad things?

 

[TheShadowLord]

Ok so help me straighten this out. CDC research into guns and mental health should not be allowed? Further gun registration should not be allowed?

Please explain why these are bad things?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/federal-government-study-gun-violence/story?id=50300379

 

[harrisk954]

Wtf, this is terrible. Isn't disarming ISIS folks a good thing or are the US on #TeamISIS as soon as it comes to gun control?

It is terrible, but the second amendment (right to bear arms) has been bastardized and twisted by gun lobbyists, such as the NRA. There will be an uproar for a few weeks (or days), then it will die down until the next shooting. Had the shooter been from another country, you can rest assured that Trump would be tweeting about immigration today. But, because it is an American kid who did it (just like Vegas, New Town, Columbine, Aurora, etc.), it is glossed over by most of our elected officials who are overwhelmingly Republican and in the back pockets of the NRA. When 95% of the country is in favor of stricter background checks and the politicians do nothing, you know what is going on here. As far as ISIS goes (or any terrorist group), it is so easy to get guns in this country that it is laughable. Plus, we don't face issues in the US from radical Islamist terrorists (with the limited exception of a very few Americans that have been "radicalized"). We face issues from people who were born here and have stockpiles of guns, including assault-style weapons.

And, by the way, what is going to happen now is that there will be a HUGE increase in gun purchases in the US as insane right wing assholes think that the government is going to come and take their guns away.

 

[harrisk954]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/federal-government-study-gun-violence/story?id=50300379

If you saw my post above, I just learned this morning that doctors are not even allowed to ask if a patient owns a gun even when that patient appears to pose a danger of violence. Our wonderful governor of Florida, RIck Scott, is fighting to keep that law in place.

 

[BANGS]

I don't believe in limits on weapons. Whatever the government has access to, I should have access to.

I do however believe in personal responsibility and training. Nobody should own a weapon they don't know how to properly store and use(and in many cases, NOT use). I'm hesitant about the concept of government stepping in and controlling who can have what, but I think that it's ridiculous that you need a license to drive(which you had to pass a written test, spend a certain amount of hours training, AND pass a performance test) but guns are just "lol here just dont shoot nobody"...

Obviously I'm simplifying my positions for obvious reasons, but that's what I believe...

 

[TheShadowLord]

I don't believe in limits on weapons. Whatever the government has access to, I should have access to.

I do however believe in personal responsibility and training. Nobody should own a weapon they don't know how to properly store and use(and in many cases, NOT use). I'm hesitant about the concept of government stepping in and controlling who can have what, but I think that it's ridiculous that you need a license to drive(which you had to pass a written test, spend a certain amount of hours training, AND pass a performance test) but guns are just "lol here just dont shoot nobody"...

Obviously I'm simplifying my positions for obvious reasons, but that's what I believe...

So you would be okay with some owning a grenade launcher but not okay if they don't use it? Or LMG? Why would you even need them, they don't sound practical for a normal day person to use. The only way you use them is at a gun range

 

[Tumle]

Training is good. Training requirements required by the state just become a defacto limit on citizens owning firearms.



Trust me, no they aren't.



Go do all the studies you want...! Nobody is stopping you. Ask Michael Bloomberg for some grant money, he loves funding restrictions on our human rights. Why do you think it has to be the CDC who does a study? And why does it require our tax money to "study" ways to restrict our rights? Do it with your own money.

I’m curious .. other than gun ownership, what other things makes you more free than other western countries?
If only one thing counts as making you “the freest country in the world” then I’ll throw in Holland and Portugal, in the runnings
I’ll give you the most paranoid country in the world though

 

[Dunki]

Honestly I will never understand american gun controls which lets you have an automatic Rifle.... Why would you even need that as a normal person?


I also believe that the current Cop situation could be controlled as well. The moment cops do not fear that every person they stop could have a legal weapon to kill me I would be also more aggressive and scared with every movement of the suspect. All in all I see no real need for any rifle like gun to be in possession of normal people (except with a hunter license)

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Can we drop this absurd idea that the 2nd Amendment protects us from government tyranny in 2018?

I don’t care how many guns you own or how many people own them. They aren’t stopping the US military and it’s army of tanks, fighter jets, bombers, drones, etc.

The gap in weapons technology between the military and civilians has increased exponentially since the time of the Founding Fathers.

 

[BANGS]

but not okay if they don't use it?

I'm completely confused what this is supposed to mean, sorry I can't follow...

So you would be okay with some owning a grenade launcher...? Or LMG? Why would you even need them, they don't sound practical for a normal day person to use. The only way you use them is at a gun range

Yes I would absolutely be ok with that. Very true they aren't practical in normal personal use for sports, hunting, etcetera. But that's not why we have the 2nd amendment. We have it to protect us from government tyranny. As 404Ender just pointed out, we need to have access to everything they have to actually protect ourselves.

 

[Alx]

Can we drop this absurd idea that the 2nd Amendment protects us from government tyranny in 2018?

I don’t care how many guns you own or how many people own them. They aren’t stopping the US military and it’s army of tanks, fighter jets, bombers, drones, etc.

The gap in weapons technology between the military and civilians has increased exponentially since the time of the Founding Fathers.

That's true. One can't really consider random civilians shooting at the army to be a reasonable counter-measure against a dictatorship. Instead of that, the structure of the government itself should be thought as different powers and counter-powers keeping each other in check (and I'm pretty sure it is, even if one can always discuss possible changes for better balance).
Also in case everything fails, you have better chances of removing dictatorships through external interventions (allied countries, UN,...).

 

[TheShadowLord]

I'm completely confused what this is supposed to mean, sorry I can't follow...

you said.....

I don't believe in limits on weapons. Whatever the government has access to, I should have access to.

I do however believe in personal responsibility and training. Nobody should own a weapon they don't know how to properly store and use(and in many cases, NOT use). I'

So I said why would you need something like an LMG or grenade launcher if you never attend to use it? Or even a rpg or stinger missile.

 

[TTOOLL]

What are the minimum requirements to own a gun in the US?

 

[Mohonky]

Yes I would absolutely be ok with that. Very true they aren't practical in normal personal use for sports, hunting, etcetera. But that's not why we have the 2nd amendment. We have it to protect us from government tyranny. As 404Ender just pointed out, we need to have access to everything they have to actually protect ourselves.

I don't even know how to respond to people who bring this up. The level of paranoia someone has to have to say this with a straight face.

 

[DonJimbo]

Its time to reform the ammunition laws in America or completely forbid guns