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Lets talk about 'wokism' or politically charged games

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No. Politics.
So I had a discussion with Makavelli in the Saints Row thread. He said the industry was being killed because of wokism, politically charged brainwash stuff as well.

I would like to know what this means, and get some examples as well. As far as I know, there barely is any 'woke' stuff in most actual videogames. I dont care if there is a lesbian in a game, or if I have to play as a woman. That doesnt make anything woke for me. Playing as a black main character was done in GTA San Andreas, I dont consider that woke or politically charged either.

I think most people are overreacting. Just like the people on Reee overreact to every pushback by gamers on some issues.

I saw them going nuts over GTA criticisms, when rumors are that they will be less punching down on minorities, imo that is a valid complaint. Gta takes the piss out of everyone, left vs right, immigrant vs patriot.

Now this rumor comes and on Reee all they focus on is people bashing the game because it might have a female main character. First of all I barely see people shitting on GTA6 because of that, but more because of the 'more culturally sensitive' thing.

I just want to have a real discussion, with some examples, if wokism in actual AAA titles exists, is pushed by publishers, or if games are getting more politically charged and try to brainwash people with there messages. I just think both sides of this camp, are too extreme and cannot see past their initial hate or frustration.

I hope we can make this discussion work.
 

Putonahappyface

Gold Member
 
Be offended. Female or black leads is not the issue. It's pampering some or overly representing some just to pander. I don't care if its a game about a gay bar and 90% of the characters are gay, that would make sense for instance. People need to be equal when it comes to jokes. If you're offended, be offended. The world doesn't revolve around you.
 
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Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
For me personally have no issue having gay character or female as lead, games like Nier and 13 Sentinels have both and I absolutely LOVE them.

Devs are free to make what they want to make, all I care about is the end result, either I'm going to like it or not.
 
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Guilty_AI

Gold Member
Look no further than COD Vanguard campaign to see how being overtly politically charged can ruin a game.

I think the problem here is that wokism nowadays is basically in the same position conservatism was decades ago. A set of shallow beliefs people don't really think through and that feel generally off-putting, especially in narratives.
 

radewagon

Member
Sometimes people need a boogie man. They see things changing and they don't like what it's changing into. Regardless of the reason for this change, people want to be able to point to something and say, "This thing right here is ruining what I used to love." Be it wokeism, sjw's, lgbtq, the far right, maga, etc. etc. etc. Are these claims legitimate? Do they hold water? I dunno. Sometimes. But the effects of such boogie men are usually over-exaggerated and over-emphasized.
 
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lifa-cobex

Member
It's not so much what is in the game that annoys me.
It's what gets pushed as news or the stand out feature of a game.

OMG Lara croft is gay!!
OMG First female lead in GTA!!
OMG Female cowgirl RDR2!!
OMG MK is covering up the female fighters!!

This isn't news. It's advertisement. Good or bad reactions don't matter. It just spreads like wildfire and that's what puts me off said game.
It also detracts from actual news or discussion about a game.

I generally think the next GTA will probably be shit or at least not as good. Not because I think they are going woke. I think they will use that as a marketing tool.
I think it will be shit as the lead creators/ writers have gone and just looking at their micro transactions/ re-releases from GTA5 and RDR2.
It's not the same company anymore. But this will get over shadowed by "OMG You hate du women".
 
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Kimahri

Gold Member
Wokeism to me is such things as when some EA dev feels it necessary to tweet that one of the characters in the game is non-binary, like that somehow matters or changes things. It's basically someone beating their own chest and going hey, look at me how righteous and just I am.

Star Wars Squadrons is a good example in several ways really. It's a pretty neat game with great dogfighting, but it feels like they spent just as much time (or more) writing and voice recording shitty character stories about uninteresting people with fashionable haircuts and solid ethnic diversity, as they did crafting a playable experience.

Give me a fun game, don't fill it with nonsense I'll just skip just because you feel the need to tell me something.

I'd rather have a menu based system between missions that listening to one more word of my imperial officer sharing her inner turmoil with me.
 

lefty1117

Member
I think the reaction is overdone. After decades or centuries of feeling hidden or second class, minorities and LBGTQ are having their day in the sun. Let them! Who cares? Good for them I say. Eventually it will settle down into a new equilibrium and won't be on the front of everyone's minds as often as it is now. People will just accept each other and live their lives. Then we'll truly have arrived. Until then I feel like society is in a course correction, perhaps the wheel is being yanked a bit too hard in some cases which will draw its own backlash, but on the grand scale I'm confident it will all settle down and we'll move on.
 
Wokeism to me is such things as when some EA dev feels it necessary to tweet that one of the characters in the game is non-binary, like that somehow matters or changes things. It's basically someone beating their own chest and going hey, look at me how righteous and just I am.

Star Wars Squadrons is a good example in several ways really. It's a pretty neat game with great dogfighting, but it feels like they spent just as much time (or more) writing and voice recording shitty character stories about uninteresting people with fashionable haircuts and solid ethnic diversity, as they did crafting a playable experience.

Give me a fun game, don't fill it with nonsense I'll just skip just because you feel the need to tell me something.

I'd rather have a menu based system between missions that listening to one more word of my imperial officer sharing her inner turmoil with me.

Yup that does sound like classic EA (and or/Respawn).

I really couldnt care less that a fictional character has a certain sexuality. So I will certainly agree that this tweeting front and center can get on people's nerves.
 

ChorizoPicozo

Gold Member
I don't think we can have a real discussion when is framed form a "wokims" point of view.

I am just going to say this:

1. People in positions of power (creatively speaking) they are going to infuse their work with their idiosyncrasies.

2. Executives/ the money people are going to make decisions based in money. Right?. This is why in movies there is something called "demographics" or the 4 quadrants.

Diversity/inclusivity is not just important but a necessity when these mediums likes movies/games are global entertainment And are quite expensive to make.

The proof is in the pudding. Everything is boiled down to:

Is the money coming in?.

As simple as that.
 
I don't think we can have a real discussion when is framed form a "wokims" point of view.

I am just going to say this:

1. People in positions of power (creatively speaking) they are going to infuse their work with their idiosyncrasies.

2. Executives/ the money people are going to make decisions based in money. Right?. This is why in movies there is something called "demographics" or the 4 quadrants.

Diversity/inclusivity is not just important but a necessity when these mediums likes movies/games are global entertainment And are quite expensive to make.

The proof is in the pudding. Everything is boiled down to:

Is the money coming in?.

As simple as that.
But the money also comes in from games that arent 'woke' at all, or culturally sensitive. I mean it certainly feels that way to me. You just have to create a good game.

People didnt flock to Apex Legends because a character is non binary you know?

But I will agree that someone at Respawn thought, hey Im non binary, I want a legend to represent me. And went to upper management and complained about it enough until they got their wish.
 
I don't think we can have a real discussion when is framed form a "wokims" point of view.

I am just going to say this:

1. People in positions of power (creatively speaking) they are going to infuse their work with their idiosyncrasies.

2. Executives/ the money people are going to make decisions based in money. Right?. This is why in movies there is something called "demographics" or the 4 quadrants.

Diversity/inclusivity is not just important but a necessity when these mediums likes movies/games are global entertainment And are quite expensive to make.

The proof is in the pudding. Everything is boiled down to:

Is the money coming in?.

As simple as that.
Games have the added dimension of gameplay though, I mean if a game is good the graphics can be flat shaded single color polygons and it will sell. I would actually suggest it is the opposite - they know a game is going to sell so they can put whatever they want in it and know people will buy it and be exposed to it.
 

ChorizoPicozo

Gold Member
Games have the added dimension of gameplay though, I mean if a game is good the graphics can be flat shaded single color polygons and it will sell. I would actually suggest it is the opposite - they know a game is going to sell so they can put whatever they want in it and know people will buy it and be exposed to it.
Unless you are talking about indie games. I think we are talking about AAA shit tho.

And again. I am not talking about "wokims" or whatever.

I am talking from a point of intersection between creators/businesses.

Diversity/inclusion is a necessity in these mediums especially in big productions. Not because of some "agenda" but because (as I said before) the global market.
 

RobertsK

Member
As long as games (just like movies) can adapt to new times and still have something interesting to say and entertain me, I don’t give a shit about how woke or not it is.
 

ChorizoPicozo

Gold Member
But the money also comes in from games that arent 'woke' at all, or culturally sensitive. I mean it certainly feels that way to me. You just have to create a good game.
Woke ≠ as inclusion or diversity.

People didnt flock to Apex Legends because a character is non binary you know?
That's my point.

To have a cast of diverse and inclusive characters is not an issue.

But I will agree that someone at Respawn thought, hey Im non binary, I want a legend to represent me. And went to upper management and complained about it enough until they got their wish.
That's proves what I am saying.
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Everytime I see people complaining about things being woke it pretty much reads as "wah, they mentioned someone who isn't straight and white" or maybe politically Conservative.

Not that many years ago people would cry and scream about characters who weren't white, straight and male, so that's some change.

Nintendo famously ran an ad campaign saying "will you save the girl, or play like one" that just wouldn't happen now, and that's a good thing. People shouldn't be told that they're inferior or to lower their expectations because of things that the have no control over.

I'm not saying that I have a burning desire to play a game as a (insert gender, orientation and race of your choice) but I also know seeing characters who are a bit like you being a positive part of a story, or even the lead character is important.

So when people kick back against wokeism, or if you like, being inconsiderate of people who aren't straight and white, I think they haven't thought it through.
 
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cormack12

Gold Member
Simple.
If you announce any of this meaningless shit before your games releases, its woke.

If you release your game without a hint of trying to get a pat on the head, and players discover they're playing a well written character who is gay etc. then it's not woke.
 
A problem I'm having with current japanese games is that I'm seeing the translators taking too much liberties when it comes to woke stuff.
For example, there's some censored stuff on Live A Live, and in some instances they'll change the pronouns to they/them for some character just because.

Imo translators should be just that, and should have more respect the original work.
 
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Astral Dog

Member
I mean, there's some push towards "progresiveness" , or less "problematic" stuff by some gamers/companies that i find cringey, but nothing too bad that spoils videogames for me, i can always find something fun that is not defined by those things, its also hypocrite when companies such as Ubisoft or Activision are among the worst when it comes to toxic attitudes/harrassment, so the content of the products don't mean shit.

Also, i would say the problem is less the actual games and more the toxic communities that want to force companies to comply to their petty weird demands, like ERA. its all about control
 

ChorizoPicozo

Gold Member
A problem I'm having with current japanese games is that I'm seeing the translators taking too much liberties when it comes to woke stuff.
For example, there's some censored stuff on Live A Live, and in some instances they'll change the pronouns to they/them for some character just because.

Imo translators should be just that, and should have more respect the original work.
It is called localization right?
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
A problem I'm having with current japanese games is that I'm seeing the translators taking too much liberties when it comes to woke stuff.
For example, there's some censored stuff on Live A Live, and in some instances they'll change the pronouns to they/them for some character just because.

Imo translators should be just that, and should have more respect the original work.

Are you serious? The words They and Them are common words, they're not exclusively for the use of Non-Binary people.
 

killatopak

Gold Member
I'm fine with whatever.

The only thing I don't like about a game being labeled as woke is their penchant to deflect their shortcomings as an act of racism, sexism or whatever ism they think of to move the attention away from poor storytelling, gameplay, graphics, design etc.

If your game is really good, no amount of ideological critism or pushback will take that away from you.
 

GermanZepp

Member
I think that the sexuality, gender and skin color of the characters should not be relevant in a game. It shows when a character is designed and cast only to fulfill a quota (or when the main drive behind its inclusion is anchored in that line) and it shows when a character is well written/designed to fulfill a role.
 

Flabagast

Member
TLOU2 is super woke in a sense, but also miles ahead of the rest of the industry in so many ways. So I won’t say it kills the industry.
 

MacReady13

Member
My issue stems from the fact that I don't actually care who or what the characters color/creed/whatever is BUT, when it is changed because the dev is trying to inject more of something "woke" into a game just for the sake of it, then I have an issue. And I have that issue not only in gaming but in film/tv as well.

Bending the knee to try to get points with a certain group of people is pathetic, pandering bullshit. Stick to your vision. If that includes a black female lead then go for it! I'm all for it! But to change it from a white guy to a black female lead cause you wanted more representation just doesn't work for me. We are living in the more representative age for everyone. The least racist time for everyone! Stop pretending we are living in the racist south USA from 50-100 years ago and realize things are FAR better than they've ever been in all facets of life, and especially issues with race.
 
So I had a discussion with Makavelli in the Saints Row thread. He said the industry was being killed because of wokism, politically charged brainwash stuff as well.

I would like to know what this means, and get some examples as well. As far as I know, there barely is any 'woke' stuff in most actual videogames. I dont care if there is a lesbian in a game, or if I have to play as a woman. That doesnt make anything woke for me. Playing as a black main character was done in GTA San Andreas, I dont consider that woke or politically charged either.

I think most people are overreacting. Just like the people on Reee overreact to every pushback by gamers on some issues.

I saw them going nuts over GTA criticisms, when rumors are that they will be less punching down on minorities, imo that is a valid complaint. Gta takes the piss out of everyone, left vs right, immigrant vs patriot.

Now this rumor comes and on Reee all they focus on is people bashing the game because it might have a female main character. First of all I barely see people shitting on GTA6 because of that, but more because of the 'more culturally sensitive' thing.

I just want to have a real discussion, with some examples, if wokism in actual AAA titles exists, is pushed by publishers, or if games are getting more politically charged and try to brainwash people with there messages. I just think both sides of this camp, are too extreme and cannot see past their initial hate or frustration.

I hope we can make this discussion work.
He means that instead of hiring individuals with better skill set and experience, companies are now hiring for “equality”. What happens is we get a less than stellar product because less skills individuals are working on said games. He’s not wrong, and in fact, yesterday I was filling out a job application online and it blatantly asked if I was a part of the lgbtq community. I abruptly exited the application and emailed the hiring manager to let him/her know that it is discriminatory to add that to the regular portion of an application. It’s all fine and well to ask in the tax question portion, but to ask in the main app where you can’t skip the question is a problem. More and more companies are doing this because they believe it stands for equality in the workplace, when it does exactly the opposite. It separates your workforce and, as I said earlier, forces individuals into positions on the job that they have no business being in. Woman, man, black, white, yellow, trans…it shouldn’t matter. If you are the most fit based on skills, experience, and abilities, you should get that job. This is the problem we are seeing with the gaming industry right now, and it’s going to kill it at this rate. Just an opinion, based on my 15+ years of extensive research into hiring practices and workplace issues at my last job.
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Are they common when you are refering to a single individual?
Yes.



Where's Dave?

They went over there.

They've gone to the shop.


Who's that a present for?

It's for Dave, I'm going to give it to them later.

You know my friend Dave? I got him this present as it's his birthday, I'm going to give it to him later on, they've got no idea I bought them anything.
 
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Yes.



Where's Dave?

They went over there.


Who's that a present for?

It's for Dave, I'm going to give it to them later.
Is Dave non-binary? Because of not, imo you should be using the he/him pronoun.

It also looks weird and confusing as fuck to me, at least as the ESL I am. Makes it look like Dave is like a team of people or something. :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
Unless you are talking about indie games. I think we are talking about AAA shit tho.

And again. I am not talking about "wokims" or whatever.

I am talking from a point of intersection between creators/businesses.

Diversity/inclusion is a necessity in these mediums especially in big productions. Not because of some "agenda" but because (as I said before) the global market.
The global market is generally less inclusive though, which is why these things are generally added to games - for instance:

It is called localization right?
Do you call it "localization" when they delete or hide gay/minority characters from movies to sell them in China?
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
The following three things are true:

Many creative people in modern media are slaves to ideologies they picked up in education, and haven’t grown out of, to the detriment of the projects they work on.

Many members of the public still have out of date, prejudiced views that need confronting and destroying.

A healthy balance will be eventually struck, but until then

On Fire GIF
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Is Dave non-binary? Because of not, imo you should be using the he/him pronoun.

It also looks weird and confusing as fuck to me, at least as the ESL I am. Makes it look like Dave is like a team of people or something. :messenger_grinning_sweat:
They and them have been singular pronouns for hundreds of years.

You've read (I presume) loads of books that said it and it didn't confuse you.
 
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