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Lets talk about 'wokism' or politically charged games

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TheGecko

Member
No one is ever going to agree when its comes to politics, Let the woke have their games and let me have mine. But the problem is they wont let me have mine, even though I'd be ok with them having theirs, Even though they are dog shit.
 
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TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
All the examples I can find are like those posted earlier, where you refer so someone you know nothing about.
This is the correct use of it, although it has used commonly amongst people to refer to a single person for years because it's a word people can use and you know what they're talking about.
But just because people use it the wrong way doesn't mean it's correct.
If anything they/them is probably used correctly in this example of pronouns because the person is saying they don't identify as anything.
The only problem is we identify them as something and choose he/him or her/she.
Your pronoun isn't something YOU can choose.
 

MiguelItUp

Member
When the term "woke" is a kneejerk response to genders, ethnicity, etc. diversity, I think it's completely unjust. I personally don't have a problem with any of that at all, I don't think the majority do either.

For me, it's an issue when it feels incredibly pander-y. If it comes from a passionate and meaningful place, it won't feel pander-y whatsoever. It will just feel organic and natural. Anything that feels forced or obnoxiously in your face is hard to not question.

Also, with Vanguard, I'm pretty sure it was always meant to be a "fictional" retelling of history, was it not? So I never quite understood people getting upset about it if it was all meant to be a fictional "what if" scenario. I never touched the campaign and only played multiplayer, lol.
 

Labolas

Member
Yeah, it does exist and if anyone is saying it doesn't then they are either lying, blind, or a fool. TOLU2, Detroit, MK11, and Life is Strange are some of the examples. They are in and out of those games. American culture in general is rife with this stuff. But I think that the bigger problem will be those that are complacent with these issues, they'll accept it as long as they are not effected.
 
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makaveli60

Member
Quite a lot of awesome posts in this thread!
One thing I would add that might offend some: I hate wokeness and everything about it because I see the sinister motives behind it. On the outside it is made to be seem as something that unifies people but in reality all it does is dividing people more and more and making them fight each other instead of seeing who cause their problems in life. All the while the people at the top of the society get away with anything as no one realizes that it’s basically about “divide and conquer” and nothing else.
 

rofif

Gold Member
Some people in this very thread seem to be saying otherwise. I'm a dumb ESL so I'll let you guys decide on that.


Don't be married with your job man, specially if it's not your company/business. You sound like you are being way too responsible even for your own good.

Learn to disconect. Put limits between you and your job, and relax bro. :)
ooof thanks man.
With time, because of bad management, out engineering team reduced from about 12 to 4.
I am apparently a very valued specialist. Valued enough to block my move to IT department despite me winning the recruitment ooof.
But not valuable enough to give me a rise! Even though I am saving tens of thousands of euro doing the complicated service work.
OK... I am wailing over it too much. Just ... gotta... relax
 
That is why I said:

That I am talking about the intersection between creators/ business.

Just look at the split in box office:

Black Panther:
Domestic:700 M
International: 636 M

The fate of the furious:
Domestic: 225M
International: 1 B
I mean, I get where you are going with this but I dunno. FaF isn't exactly an easy movie to isolate and attribute global popularity to considering it is like the 8th or 9th or 100th movie in the franchise, and Black Panther actually "bombed" in China (a huge part of FaF's international number) largely due to the cast (which ironically as I already insinuated could be considered a non-diverse cast, thus in a round about way actually proving your point). Regardless, even if the financial correlation was 100% I am still of the firm belief that everything will not appeal to everyone, and everything should not appeal to everyone (granted this statement goes way beyond "wokeness" or anything political).
 

22•22

Doesnt need recognition
Quite a lot of awesome posts in this thread!
One thing I would add that might offend some: I hate wokeness and everything about it because I see the sinister motives behind it. On the outside it is made to be seem as something that unifies people but in reality all it does is dividing people more and more and making them fight each other instead of seeing who cause their problems in life. All the while the people at the top of the society get away with anything as no one realizes that it’s basically about “divide and conquer” and nothing else.

It's been this way for forever.

And still. I'm posting in a thread about it in 2022
 
Be offended. Female or black leads is not the issue. It's pampering some or overly representing some just to pander. I don't care if its a game about a gay bar and 90% of the characters are gay, that would make sense for instance. People need to be equal when it comes to jokes. If you're offended, be offended. The world doesn't revolve around you.

I mean, someone had to :
 
ooof thanks man.
With time, because of bad management, out engineering team reduced from about 12 to 4.
I am apparently a very valued specialist. Valued enough to block my move to IT department despite me winning the recruitment ooof.
But not valuable enough to give me a rise! Even though I am saving tens of thousands of euro doing the complicated service work.
OK... I am wailing over it too much. Just ... gotta... relax
I know that feel my man. In my experience, sadly, the only way to get a raise in IT is by changing jobs, which can be a total pain specially if you like the people you work with or are enjoying working on the current project.

Hang in there!
 
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Edgelord79

Gold Member
I don’t let it become an issue in my life or my games. If I don’t like a game due to its narrative I just play something else.

Society always goes through generational changes. When my kids are older and have their own families, they’ll be in the exact same place.
 
Woke can be boiled down to a certain mentality:
  1. It maintains that, along social and economic lines, there are the oppressed victims and the aggressive oppressors, despite most data points proving that to be objectively false in the 21st century. In this narrative, victims are helpless and cannot overcome their plight, due primarily to the alleged viciousness of the so-called oppressors.
  2. In order to remedy #1, societal behavior and sociopolitical/economic policy must over-compensate in favor of the oppressed victims, to reach something called "equity." Equity doesn't always account for relative percentages in real society.
  3. If you agree with the over-compensation in #2, you are what is known as an ally. If you disagree with the over-compensation in #2, then you're an enemy and must be destroyed/cancelled/"de-platformed"/etc. To the extreme woke, being an ally means proactively stating your allegiance/support on behalf of the oppressed. Silently approving or taking a personal "live and let live" mentality is not enough. (Which is why you get seemingly contradictory slogans from woke people; in one breath, they will tell you that "words are violence," but in the very next breath, they will say that "silence is violence," putting potential detractors or even allies in a lose-lose situation)
Taking that definition above, it manifests itself in video games in many ways.
 

22•22

Doesnt need recognition
It's been this way for forever.

And still. I'm posting in a thread about it in 2022

Duality as a concept/construct is inherently present on Earth in all it's neutrality; Night, day, Etc.

It's also a tool.

Well There It Is Jurassic Park GIF
 

twerkouting

Banned
I'm going to need OP's clear, definitive definition of "woke." Then I'm going to need to know how that's a problem in games / media.
 

22•22

Doesnt need recognition
I'm going to need OP's clear, definitive definition of "woke." Then I'm going to need to know how that's a problem in games / media.

Woke and politics. And you can't work out for yourself the "problems" that may come with inserting these constructs? This shit has so much context en nuance needed in specific examples.

Sorry my English isn't good.

I'm out.
 
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ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
Be offended. Female or black leads is not the issue. It's pampering some or overly representing some just to pander. I don't care if its a game about a gay bar and 90% of the characters are gay, that would make sense for instance. People need to be equal when it comes to jokes. If you're offended, be offended. The world doesn't revolve around you.

I'd believe any of this if ANY suggestion of inclusion in video games wasn't met with kneejerk teeth-gnashing by folks. Look at threads where people go out of their way to find small insignificant updates that make the gaming space more open for people and the kinds of overreactions occur there (see the recent WoW thread about datamined Dragonflight character options). Take the following post:

Yeah, it does exist and if anyone is saying it doesn't then they are either lying, blind, or a fool. TOLU2, Detroit, MK11, and Life is Strange are some of the examples.

The only thing any of those titles has in common is that they present a (Westernized) view of the world that isn't dominated by White characters. I struggle to think of ANYTHING in TLOU2 that felt "pandering" as it relates to diversity beyond it including a female antagonist that had masculine features and is now a meme because she wasn't "hot enough" and was specifically designed to not be "marketable" (read fuckable) first.

Woke can be boiled down to a certain mentality -

I guarantee you not a single academic describes "being woke" as such. You've basically crafted a definition that puts you in a good light and folks who describe themselves as "woke" on the backfoot.
 
I'm surprised this is still up. Wokeism is not a problem in modern video games. As society becomes more inclusive so has art and even still a majority of a games are still white male lead...but you add a sprinkle of intersectionality those who that representation doesn't affect goes "representation doesn't matter." That doesn't make a game woke because you play different perspectives. It's just more options. The people who are outraged about this would have been complaining about Kirk kissing Uhura (rip) in 1966. Wokism is a catch all term atm for "change is uncomfortable".
 

Topher

Gold Member
I don’t let it become an issue in my life or my games. If I don’t like a game due to its narrative I just play something else.

Society always goes through generational changes. When my kids are older and have their own families, they’ll be in the exact same place.

Exactly the same. My level of apathy about the squabbles that come up and go away only to be replaced with some new squabble in the span of a few years has increased dramatically as I get older. "Woke" is just the latest buzzword for the same societal shit that has been happening for decades if not centuries.

If a video game can deliver its message without being heavy handed and preachy and tell a great story then I have no problem with it.

The people who are outraged about this would have been complaining about Kirk kissing Uhura (rip) in 1966. Wokism is a catch all term atm for "change is uncomfortable".

Perfect example of what I'm talking about.
 
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I guarantee you not a single academic describes "being woke" as such. You've basically crafted a definition that puts you in a good light and folks who describe themselves as "woke" on the backfoot.
What is the consensus academic definition, then? Does one even exist?

In the (likely event) that the answer is "no," what is your definition?
 

Fbh

Gold Member
IMO the root of the problem is bad writers and people obsessed with identity politics making it into influential position within companies. Bioware is a good example, a company that was once known for telling great stories has been on a steady narrative decline as people like Drew Karpyshyn leave and others like Patrick Weekes get promoted to lead writers.

Games have historically had pretty bad writing on average and bringing a bunch of people on board who are more worried about pushing their ideology than telling good stories isn't going to help.

Which is why "woke" complains are often way less prevalent in games that actually have compelling writing and characters, like Telltale the Walking dead, Red Dead Redemption 2 or Hellblade
 
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The people who are outraged about this would have been complaining about Kirk kissing Uhura (rip) in 1966. Wokism is a catch all term atm for "change is uncomfortable".
It's a logical fallacy always brought up by people trying to "gotcha" with: "Well, you oppose [modern thing], so surely you must've opposed civil rights or women's suffrage back in the day." Such logical fallacy borders on the idiotic, actually.

"Woke" in its modern image is a postmodern concept related to concepts of oppressed and oppressors, equity, allies, etc. Has nothing to do with the necessary movements towards equality from previous times in American history.
 
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I'd believe any of this if ANY suggestion of inclusion in video games wasn't met with kneejerk teeth-gnashing by folks. Look at threads where people go out of their way to find small insignificant updates that make the gaming space more open for people and the kinds of overreactions occur there (see the recent WoW thread about datamined Dragonflight character options). Take the following post:



The only thing any of those titles has in common is that they present a (Westernized) view of the world that isn't dominated by White characters. I struggle to think of ANYTHING in TLOU2 that felt "pandering" as it relates to diversity beyond it including a female antagonist that had masculine features and is now a meme because she wasn't "hot enough" and was specifically designed to not be "marketable" (read fuckable) first.



I guarantee you not a single academic describes "being woke" as such. You've basically crafted a definition that puts you in a good light and folks who describe themselves as "woke" on the backfoot.
Some people mistake "woke" as "haterd". We just need to push equality while explaining that pandering or putting some group on a pedestal isn't the way to go. It shouldn't be hard to make media that treats every group equally and is just fun and entertaining. No special treatment. There is always going to be a small vocal group that says stupid crap every time there is a gay or black main character. At least with free speech you can see who those people are and try to get through to them.
 
"They/them" as usage to refer to an individual person has always been grammatically wrong. Someone wanting to be called "they/them" is a different matter, though; despite the grammatical incorrectness, sure, I'll refer to you as "they/them" if I care and respect you enough. But if you coerce/force me, trust me, that's a recipe for me to NOT call you by whatever you want to be called. Compelled speech, at least here in the United States, can go pound sand.

It's the same with "Latinx" which is meant to remove gender from "Latino (masculine)/Latina (feminine)." I can call you what you want but Latinx is an explicit violation of the rules of the Spanish language, and from that perspective it's factually, grammatically incorrect.

So this should go in both directions: people shouldn't get all that worked up about they/them/Latinx/etc. But on the other hand, the people trying to claim these concepts are somehow grammatically correct need to get a grip, because they are not.
 

Bragr

Member
The following three things are true:

Many creative people in modern media are slaves to ideologies they picked up in education, and haven’t grown out of, to the detriment of the projects they work on.

Many members of the public still have out of date, prejudiced views that need confronting and destroying.

A healthy balance will be eventually struck, but until then

On Fire GIF
There is no balance.
 

Labolas

Member
I'd believe any of this if ANY suggestion of inclusion in video games wasn't met with kneejerk teeth-gnashing by folks. Look at threads where people go out of their way to find small insignificant updates that make the gaming space more open for people and the kinds of overreactions occur there (see the recent WoW thread about datamined Dragonflight character options). Take the following post:



The only thing any of those titles has in common is that they present a (Westernized) view of the world that isn't dominated by White characters. I struggle to think of ANYTHING in TLOU2 that felt "pandering" as it relates to diversity beyond it including a female antagonist that had masculine features and is now a meme because she wasn't "hot enough" and was specifically designed to not be "marketable" (read fuckable) first.



I guarantee you not a single academic describes "being woke" as such. You've basically crafted a definition that puts you in a good light and folks who describe themselves as "woke" on the backfoot.
TLOU2 killed off a beloved character or portrayed them in a shit way, which is something current media like Star Wars has been doing, women being portrayed like men (abby), nonbinary bullshit in the game and overall on how they handled characters like Ellie. And again look at the response on devs reacted to the negative response to the game as well. Which is why I said inside and outside of the game. Lol, as if what they're doing in those games isn't a western world view made by white men.

All of those games have something woke about them rather you want to admit or not. For example, Jax's arcade ending was complete garbage considering his character and who he is, is a complete 180, and not to mention is completely selfish.

Trust me, if they have a hole, they're fuckable, Abby can attest to that. But sure go ahead defend that shit. Doesn't make that any less garbage.
 
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SpokkX

Member
Which games would be considered woke?

I really hated the characters in Horizon FW, especially Aloy and her shitty friends.. but because of wokeness? I dont really know?
 

Azurro

Member
It's not about having gays, lesbians or whatever of the made up genders in the game, that's a mischaracterisation of why people dislike the woke ideology. I, and I think most people, dislike the progressive ideology because it is not grounded on reality and it has no interest in doing so. This has the consequence of leading into incredibly stupid scenarios like in TLOU2, Abbie is one of the most stupidly designed and written characters and is only that way because the writing is motivated to push the woke agenda. That's basically it.
 
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Hari Seldon

Gold Member
The problems that I have with wokeism in entertainment are:

1. It is being used to indoctrinate children. (Tomb Raider is fine since it is an M game, I'm talking mouse shit like Toy Story). It is relentless propaganda at the pre-teen age group and even younger. This I am 100% against and will fight tooth and nail.

2. Wokeism in entertainment leads to shitty entertainment like 99% of the time. Like I'm fine that Lara Croft is gay, but does anyone really think that having her as gay will make the game better? My problem with wokeism is not that there are gays, it is that there is a 99% chance that the writing will be complete fucking shit, which will likely make the game worse. This is an inherint flaw with wokeism that will never be overcome. If you only hire staff based on the check boxes that they tick off and not talent, you will not get good results.
 

64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
Woke games suck fuck because it's the corporations taking advantage of the woke push to pander to the twitter tards and gain a couple extra bucks. It was never about actual representation but just forcing it in for extra cash. They took a movement with actual care towards minorities and women and turned it into yet another way to make profit... like they always do
There are games where you can easily tell heartfelt representation from wokeism.

Bow Kid from A hat in Time and Theo from celeste are excellent examples. They're black just because. They didn't SHOVE THEM into the marketing of the game, going on about how inclusive and epic they are. They're just there, and they're just black. It's NORMALIZED. It's not pointed out and brought to our attention like we should gasp and praise the studios for putting them into the game. I honestly hate the "they should be gay/black if it fits into the plot" excuse because that's stupid and holds representation back. You make them gay or black if you want them to. Just write them like good characters and not like some token character put in there for the sake of appearing progressive to investors

There's also Wallace Wells from Scott Pilgrim, who also is gay... just because. It's funny and leads to quite a few funny interactions between Scott and Wallace, but otherwise it's just there... Because it is. There doesn't need to be a fuckin reason, there just is. It's really no different from making the characters straight, just now they're attracted to boys. They're still well written and fun characters to be around so why get all up in arms about it.

Also, i wouldn't consider TLOU2 woke. That implies they tried to put LGBT characters in a good light. Both abby and ellie were part of the LGBT and were awful people for one way or another. I'm not against villains being black or gay or whatever, but the representation in TLOU2 is so utterly misguided seeing what they tried to accomplish that it falls flat on its face and makes the LGBT characters in the game look like complete and utter villains. It's such a boneheaded attempt and it's one of the many reasons why i consider TLOU2 to be an absolute pile of dogshit- it's an example of corporations putting in woke elements to appease their investors and get Blackrock to give them that higher ESG score.
 
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twerkouting

Banned
Woke and politics. And you can't work out for yourself the "problems" that may come with inserting these constructs? This shit has so much context en nuance needed in specific examples.

Sorry my English isn't good.

I'm out.
Once again: I'm going to need OP's clear, definitive definition of "woke." Then I'm going to need to know how that's a problem in games / media.


You didn't answer my question; all you did was tell me it was bad.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
I am not too bothered by the forced casts, but what really pisses me off is how in a character creator they are too afraid to write Male and Female body. I have to take a guess of which one is Type 1 and Type 2.
Like, what, some 0.01% of the audience are dudes with dysphoria who will be reminded of their physical reality if words Male and Female are used.
 

Jeeves

Member
I think whereas in the past many games with a diverse cast/lead or something would release with no one thinking twice about it, in the politically charged "current climate", any game that prominently features anything that ticks those kinds of boxes is now looked at with scrutiny because people are trying to figure out if these inclusions are just the result of focus testing.
 
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