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Lets talk about 'wokism' or politically charged games

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Quite a lot of awesome posts in this thread!
One thing I would add that might offend some: I hate wokeness and everything about it because I see the sinister motives behind it. On the outside it is made to be seem as something that unifies people but in reality all it does is dividing people more and more and making them fight each other instead of seeing who cause their problems in life. All the while the people at the top of the society get away with anything as no one realizes that it’s basically about “divide and conquer” and nothing else.
Awesome of you to join the discussion! I 100% agree about not putting people in boxes and segregating society instead of unifying.
 
I'm going to need OP's clear, definitive definition of "woke." Then I'm going to need to know how that's a problem in games / media.
 
If you're not seeing it then I think you're not looking very hard, or you just don't want to see it. At any rate, I'm sure plenty of other Gaffes have already pointed it out to you. Good luck to you.
100% this.

The people coming with "I want a definition of woke" or "give me examples of how it's bad for the industry" are now acting in bad faith.

I (and others) have provided a definition. And PLENTY of people in this thread have provided their thoughts on how some of it can be bad for the gaming industry.
 
Having a trans woman of color as a videogame protagonist, even if it's totally unrealistic like in a historic setting such as WW2, wouldn't matter much if it was an isolated thing and not part of a bigger problem, an extremely dangerous one, that is destroying the lives of millions of people, especially in third world countries. Look at what is happening to Latin America, especially Venezuela and Argentina.

Crazy wokeism is just a byproduct of leftism and a new export from America that is influencing young people and adding more suffering and division to the world. But if you're only concerned about videogames, this ideology doesn't seem to be doing much good to the actual games either. Or do you believe that forcing diversity & inclusion in every game studios will result in better games and a good creative environment? Watch out for China producing some of the best games in the near future, while American studios will be all creatively dead (they already are, imo).
 
Are you as fascinated with the social politics of your home country as you are with the United States?
Im not particulary interested in either if I have to be totally honest :). I try to stay away from most politics as I feel I dont have any impact on them. I can only comment on what I do see.

Stuff like left vs right has become a lot bigger in my country since it became hyper televised and reported on in America. It has become a lot more noticable. And frustrating too.
 
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GreenAlien

Member
Games by woke companies are heavily "censored" and limited to begin with. It's not only about what is there, but also about what isn't. It's an ideological filter that only let's a tiny amount of stuff through and thus greatly harms diversity of everything meaningful.
It's inherently authoritarian and only happy if it can force itself on unwilling actors. There is no live and let live. We can't just have both because they won't tolerate it.

You ask for examples but that is in essence a trap. No, that one mistranslated sentence, messed up character design, required extra willing suspension of disbelief, ... , didn't ruin the whole game in most cases. It just made it a little bit worse.

It's not about that one instance. It's about the plague infecting everything. Some people don't see the forest, they only see the single broken tree and thus think it's a non issue. They are wrong.
 
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FunkMiller

Gold Member
It goes without saying that if you object to fictional characters/stories being created or altered just to suit a political agenda, then you have a valid contribution to this discussion.

If you object to gay or black people having better representation in media, then you’re a homophobic or racist cunt.

There’s nothing wrong with having better representation. There is something wrong with lazily altering existing popular narratives & characters to push an agenda, or cynically creating new narratives for the sole purpose of exploiting a social cause. That’s what woke is.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
The only time wokism ruins a game is when it inserts sexuality when there previously was none.
 
It goes without saying that if you object to fictional characters/stories being created or altered just to suit a political agenda, then you have a valid contribution to this discussion.

If you object to gay or black people having better representation in media, then you’re a homophobic or racist cunt.

There’s nothing wrong with having better representation. There is something wrong with lazily altering existing popular narratives & characters to push an agenda, or cynically creating new narratives for the sole purpose of exploiting a social cause. That’s what woke is.
A well thought out, balanced, reasonable post?

 

Azurro

Member
Are you as fascinated with the social politics of your home country as you are with the United States?

Trust me, I wish it was only an american thing. Your country has been exporting that for a while and now the woke nonsense is in Canada (ultra woke), Mexico, Western Europe and I'm sure even Eastern Europe will get infected to some degree.
 
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ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
TLOU2 killed off a beloved character or portrayed them in a shit way which is something current media like Star Wars has been doing, women being portrayed like men (abby), nonbinary bullshit in the game and overall on how they handled characters like Ellie. And again look at the response on devs reacted to the negative response to the game as well. Which is why I said inside and outside of the game. Lol, as if what they're doing in those games isn't a western world view made by white men.

Fantastic word vomit. Thank you for playing.

What is the consensus academic definition, then? Does one even exist?

In the (likely event) that the answer is "no," what is your definition?

Whether there is a consensus or not - and I'm sure there isn't, just like there isn't a consensus on what feminism means - is irrelevant. No one would describe being "woke" the way you did because why would they? Your definition is absurd and is based on your biased view of people who describe themselves as such.

As for what "woke" means, I would bet dollars do doughnuts most would describe it at its most basic level (and it really IS in the name): a simple awareness of social ills and not being afraid to confront how you contribute to them. And to pre-empt where this is going to go, you can argue what is or isn't a "social ill", the level of participation a group has in it based on other factors or any number of things related to this discussion - however none of that will change the fundamental principle.
 
Fantastic word vomit. Thank you for playing.



Whether there is a consensus or not - and I'm sure there isn't, just like there isn't a consensus on what feminism means - is irrelevant. No one would describe being "woke" the way you did because why would they? Your definition is absurd and is based on your biased view of people who describe themselves as such.

As for what "woke" means, I would bet dollars do doughnuts most would describe it at its most basic level (and it really IS in the name): a simple awareness of social ills and not being afraid to confront how you contribute to them. And to pre-empt where this is going to go, you can argue what is or isn't a "social ill", the level of participation a group has in it based on other factors or any number of things related to this discussion - however none of that will change the fundamental principle.
LMAO you're speaking in vague generalities, didn't provide a single definition from "academics" that you "GUARANTEED" wouldn't match mine, and your point narrows down to simply: "wahhh I don't like your definition."

Not a very convincing argument. You lose.
 

Labolas

Member
Fantastic word vomit. Thank you for playing.



Whether there is a consensus or not - and I'm sure there isn't, just like there isn't a consensus on what feminism means - is irrelevant. No one would describe being "woke" the way you did because why would they? Your definition is absurd and is based on your biased view of people who describe themselves as such.

As for what "woke" means, I would bet dollars do doughnuts most would describe it at its most basic level (and it really IS in the name): a simple awareness of social ills and not being afraid to confront how you contribute to them. And to pre-empt where this is going to go, you can argue what is or isn't a "social ill", the level of participation a group has in it based on other factors or any number of things related to this discussion - however none of that will change the fundamental principle.
Nice deflection there, pal.
 

boo

Gold Member
If a company makes a game, or for that matter any type of entertainment where I am being portrayed in a negative manner due to me being a white man, I just do not spend my money on that entertainment. If there is a market for it, then just keep making that stuff, but I will never spend my precious time or money on it. But make what you want.
 
If you object to gay or black people having better representation in media, then you’re a homophobic or racist cunt.
That depends entirely on what "better representation" even is. Can "better representation" become "over-representation?" Do games/developers have a responsibility to represent everyone?

There are no rules for woke. It's all subjective.
 

ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
It is time to grow up and stop the insults and antagonization. Learn to debate like an adult.
LMAO you're speaking in vague generalities, didn't provide a single definition from "academics" that you "GUARANTEED" wouldn't match mine, and your point narrows down to simply: "wahhh I don't like your definition."

Not a very convincing argument. You lose.

A turn of phrase isn't a call to action; if I said "I guarantee you no doctor would tell you to do your own surgery. . ." would you REALLY argue that. Your "definition" is hostile and one sided and no academic worth their salt would EVER describe ANYTHING in those terms. But here you go. If you can find a SINGLE person whose definition even comes close to the way you've framed the ideology then sure. . .you "win." I guess. Pretty shit contest if you ask me -

Nice deflection there, pal.

There's nothing to deflect. You puked out a bunch of narrative complaints that you mistake for "wokeism. . ." (like what does the death of a character have to do with "being woke"). There's nothing to discuss in your post; you're just listing off grievances and being vulgar.

Pretty much. We've got him, time to move on to someone who may actually have a valid counterpoint.

Whoof. That you read that and still hit post. God damn.
 
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It's a logical fallacy always brought up by people trying to "gotcha" with: "Well, you oppose [modern thing], so surely you must've opposed civil rights or women's suffrage back in the day." Such logical fallacy borders on the idiotic, actually.

"Woke" in its modern image is a postmodern concept related to concepts of oppressed and oppressors, equity, allies, etc. Has nothing to do with the necessary movements towards equality from previous times in American history.
Logical fallacy

Ben Shapiro GIF by GIPHY News


bolded is a perspective that kid of establishes the mindset I was talking about. No real need to expand. We won't see eye to eye.
 

Labolas

Member
A turn of phrase isn't a call to action; if I said "I guarantee you no doctor would tell you to do your own surgery. . ." would you REALLY argue that. Your "definition" is hostile and one sided and no academic worth their salt would EVER describe ANYTHING in those terms. But here you go. If you can find a SINGLE person whose definition even comes close to the way you've framed the ideology then sure. . .you "win." I guess. Pretty shit contest if you ask me -



There's nothing to deflect. You puked out a bunch of narrative complaints that you mistake for "wokeism. . ." (like what does the death of a character have to do with "being woke"). There's nothing to discuss in your post; you're just listing off grievances and being vulgar.



Whoof. That you read that and still hit post. God damn.
Lol, you're the only one puking out nonsense. If you can't see that those are examples of being agenda driven then I don't have anything else to say to you.
 
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kurisu_1974

is on perm warning for being a low level troll
I think the fake new puritan part is the worst. Like when Blizzard put clothes on all the nakes ladies' paintings in World of Warcraft while being known for actually harassing women on the workfloor.
 
A turn of phrase isn't a call to action; if I said "I guarantee you no doctor would tell you to do your own surgery. . ." would you REALLY argue that. Your "definition" is hostile and one sided and no academic worth their salt would EVER describe ANYTHING in those terms. But here you go. If you can find a SINGLE person whose definition even comes close to the way you've framed the ideology then sure. . .you "win." I guess. Pretty shit contest if you ask me -
Usage of the word 'woke' from.... not even someone "on my side." This is from a liberal black professor. (Professor would count as an academic, right?). From an article published in NPR.


Again, that's not one.... not two... but three degrees of leftism (each degree is underscored in my first sentence above). So it's not someone from my "side."

I agree that it's a shit contest, because it deals with a shit philosophy (wokeism). It's a way of thinking that's causing measurable damage to our country and its unity. As a black-skinned immigrant in the United States who believes a lot of the concepts and ideals that make this country great, I am thoroughly and vehemently against wokeism.
 

ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
Lol, you're the only one puking out nonsense. If you can't see that those are bad examples and are agenda driven then I don't have anything else to say to you.

This is a fascinating tangent and I'll totally bite. So I'll ask again - what does killing off a beloved character have to do with "being woke?"
 
Logical fallacy

Ben Shapiro GIF by GIPHY News


bolded is a perspective that kid of establishes the mindset I was talking about. No real need to expand. We won't see eye to eye.
OK you used some random gif (that features a guy who's much smarter than you, by the way).

And then you said... something.

All I took away from your post is that, yes, we will not see eye to eye. Because instead of debating on the topics, you just go with "wahhhh this guy doesn't agree with me, disengage! Disengage!" Which is how a lot of woke people approach potential debates. Which is why debates around woke topics don't even happen in society; you either agree with the woke, or you get cancelled. Because at the end of the day, even woke people know that, in an honest debate, their ideas would get quickly exposed for the garbage they are.
 
If you don’t wish to engage, don’t instigate with pointless drive by posts.
Because instead of debating on the topics...
You internet bros love debating too much...theres no debate to be had. InfiniteCombo and Ghost of Jhoto isn't moving the needle on what y'all call "the culture wars". I'll give my perspective. Not going back and fourth. I disagree with your perspective sir.
 

Labolas

Member
This is a fascinating tangent and I'll totally bite. So I'll ask again - what does killing off a beloved character have to do with "being woke?"
The way it handle was terrible and a way to promote their stronger female character. It just exemplifies that there is agenda with a character like Abby. But I still don't know why you're still going on this example. There are other examples I listed as well.

Not saying Joel shouldn't have died in it but that was definitely a divisive scene to say the least.
 
You internet bros love debating too much...theres no debate to be had. InfiniteCombo and Ghost of Jhoto isn't moving the needle on what y'all call "the culture wars". I'll give my perspective. Not going back and fourth. I disagree with your perspective sir.
And you Internet bros love reacting and complaining too much. And the lack of engagement is as close as we'll ever get to an acknowledgment that you guys have no good counterpoints.

Debate is how you learn and grow. But sure, nothing for me to gain here. Let's agree to disagree.

Do know that this is not personal and I have no ill will towards you. I'll catch you on a different thread when we inevitably agree on a cool video game we both like. Cheers bro 👍🏾
 
How I define woke is:

Someone who woke up to the belief that liberalism can't solve the problems he sees but far left(equality of outcome/equity) solutions can.

Ironic, considering I've seen a fair bit of anti-woke sentiment coming from the left, because they view wokeness as a way to divide people according to race, gender, LGBTQIA+, etc, to intentionally prevent people from thinking of themselves as divided by class.
 

ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
Usage of the word 'woke' from.... not even someone "on my side." This is from a liberal black professor. (Professor would count as an academic, right?). From an article published in NPR.

This is a critique of individuals within the larger context of "woke ideology." Did you read or listen to this? He isn't defining wokeness (at least not here) or debating its meaning; he is literally critiquing the fringe and where they have taken THEIR version of it. As someone who is seemingly against "woke" influence I'd be interested to see his definition, but this isn't it (and I'm sure as hell not buying their book).

The way it handle was terrible and a way to promote their stronger female character. It just exemplifies that there is agenda with a character like Abby. But I still don't know why you're still going on this example. There are other examples I listed as well.

I'm not going to include your spoiler because it is a shit thing to spoil in a thread that isn't about that. As to the first comment, I'm focused on it because it is such a batshit example and it still doesn't make sense. My take is that you've so eroded what "wokeness" means by overusing it (the same way "Nazi" and "racist" are pretty meaningless now) that now you're just tossing it against anything that presents characters in a non-traditional way (that is my most ban-avoiding way of describing it).
 

Labolas

Member
This is a critique of individuals within the larger context of "woke ideology." Did you read or listen to this? He isn't defining wokeness (at least not here) or debating its meaning; he is literally critiquing the fringe and where they have taken THEIR version of it. As someone who is seemingly against "woke" influence I'd be interested to see his definition, but this isn't it (and I'm sure as hell not buying their book).



I'm not going to include your spoiler because it is a shit thing to spoil in a thread that isn't about that. As to the first comment, I'm focused on it because it is such a batshit example and it still doesn't make sense. My take is that you've so eroded what "wokeness" means by overusing it (the same way "Nazi" and "racist" are pretty meaningless now) that now you're just tossing it against anything that presents characters in a non-traditional way (that is my most ban-avoiding way of describing it).
Well, we'll agree to disagree. Leave at that.
 

ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
Well, we'll agree to disagree. Leave at that.

I mean that was obvious from my first reply to you. However that still doesn't answer my question. What does a developer killing of a popular white character by another white character have to do with "wokeness" other than said killer being a woman with masculine features?
 
As a black, straight male gamer, whatever, every thing that has been said here I agree with and proud to see many on gaf who don't give a fuck about the other reaction of wokeness or n gaming.

Jokingly when thread like this pop up I would just apologize because all i wanted was an Afro in Character Creation in game to make fun of it being the pandoras box to all this wokeness today.


However..

What a few of you call "woke gaming" I propose a new term that umbrellas it: Checklist Gaming

The problem we are witnessing in gaming is NOT wokeism:
- Announcing a characters sexuality.
- Amphasizing a character's gender.
- Promoting a characters progressive/liberal views...

Do you see it?

Developers and Publishers are trying to implement every possible niche or demographic into every game they make. They most likely have a checklist that say:

Gender representation, check
Orientation representation, check
Ambiguous political/religious views, check.

Even when the game has no need for these thing to be visible or acknowledged, they know it will make headline, supportive or hated.

This checklist gaming dictates how these that we view as "woke" are emphasize in gaming. This is corporate pandering especially when forced with no context
 
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This is a critique of individuals within the larger context of "woke ideology." Did you read or listen to this? He isn't defining wokeness (at least not here) or debating its meaning; he is literally critiquing the fringe and where they have taken THEIR version of it. As someone who is seemingly against "woke" influence I'd be interested to see his definition, but this isn't it (and I'm sure as hell not buying their book).



I'm not going to include your spoiler because it is a shit thing to spoil in a thread that isn't about that. As to the first comment, I'm focused on it because it is such a batshit example and it still doesn't make sense. My take is that you've so eroded what "wokeness" means by overusing it (the same way "Nazi" and "racist" are pretty meaningless now) that now you're just tossing it against anything that presents characters in a non-traditional way (that is my most ban-avoiding way of describing it).
Does one have to always pause and give an explicit dictionary definition of things? He uses the word constantly. It's in the TITLE of his book. So throughout his usage, the word itself is defined. Context is a thing, you know.

From Wikipedia: "... it came to be largely associated with ideas that involve identity and race and which are promoted by progressives, such as the notion of white privilege or slavery reparations for African Americans.[1]"
 

Bragr

Member
Road 96 is woke. Most political game since Deus Ex, but it got no class. Very weird experience, you can't go through one conversation without the option to hate the police. The devs are obsessed with it.
 

Mercador

Member
I think the first "case" that I remember was about Battlefield perhaps? That being said, like other said, I don't give a damn about that, if the game is good, I'll play it. If game companies try to push an agenda, that's on them, I don't care on my side.
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Im well read and never seen they / then used prevalently to describe a singular person as it's incorrect use of the English language (I am English). But I am open to be proved wrong with citations. Go ahead.
You know what, maybe I'm completely 100% WRONG and the use of They and Them does mean "non binary" 100% of the time. Still seems a weird thing for the guy to get his knickers in a twist about.

The translator changed He to They?!

Not a big deal.

That was the original complaint.
 

Labolas

Member
I mean that was obvious from my first reply to you. However that still doesn't answer my question. What does a developer killing of a popular white character by another white character have to do with "wokeness" other than said killer being a woman with masculine features?
Ummm, lol, I give an answer but that wasn't good enough for you. It's obvious that you're never going to be convince otherwise which I tried to be amicable about it and end it. But you're dead set on being on the "right side" of a game you're clearly whiteknighting for and being dismissive. We're done here.
 
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