-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Let's talk intelligently: Is the Wii done as far as third parties go?
- Thread starter ShockingAlberto
- Start date
Huh... I'd frame the question differently personnally.
The real question is why they've made every move possible to make sure they would not be part of the Wii's success.
I mean, what Htown said is pretty true to an extent, most 3rd parties of note wanted no business on Wii unless bribed to do so (which doesn't work as been proven multiple times).
As it is Wii's future is in the hands of Nintendo like it has always been, it'll stay relevant if they can make it stay relevant (which seeing their recent moves doesn't look like it'll stay relevant for long unless some surprise come up or DKCR is a mini nsmbw).
What I mean actually is that 3rd parties effort were not the reason Wii suceed in the first place and since it's then it's not been the reason for its demise either.
Heck the reason why wii fell off a clif in 2009 was not due to 3rd party being lamer than before or anything, it was because of WiiMusic & Animal Crossing failing to be what they should have been.
In short, 3rd parties have always been a non factor, whether they're pulling out or not is irrelevant as it is (as evidenced by late 2009).
They seem to want to want to have their part of the pie for the 3ds right now, but seeing with what values they're entering that market I wonder if that's good news...
The real question is why they've made every move possible to make sure they would not be part of the Wii's success.
I mean, what Htown said is pretty true to an extent, most 3rd parties of note wanted no business on Wii unless bribed to do so (which doesn't work as been proven multiple times).
As it is Wii's future is in the hands of Nintendo like it has always been, it'll stay relevant if they can make it stay relevant (which seeing their recent moves doesn't look like it'll stay relevant for long unless some surprise come up or DKCR is a mini nsmbw).
What I mean actually is that 3rd parties effort were not the reason Wii suceed in the first place and since it's then it's not been the reason for its demise either.
Heck the reason why wii fell off a clif in 2009 was not due to 3rd party being lamer than before or anything, it was because of WiiMusic & Animal Crossing failing to be what they should have been.
In short, 3rd parties have always been a non factor, whether they're pulling out or not is irrelevant as it is (as evidenced by late 2009).
They seem to want to want to have their part of the pie for the 3ds right now, but seeing with what values they're entering that market I wonder if that's good news...
Arpharmd B
Banned
.
Golden Darkness
Member
It's not like third parties would even have the mentality to support Nintendo all the way. They spent the previous fifteen years targeting young males and ignoring everyone else. The concept that anyone can be a gamer is still foreign to pretty much everyone but Nintendo.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i think 3rd parties tried to compete with nintendo and lost. nintendo didnt care because they were making boatloads of money no matter what they did. for whatever reason it didnt seem like most 3rd parties knew what to really do with the tech at hand. Also, there are perceived "extra costs" for developing for the Wii since the 360 and PS3 didn't have equivalent motion controllers at the time. They couldnt cheap out and copy and paste controls over, they had to make them from scratch all over again.
Not being able to port across systems, i feel, is a big detriment to why Wii really didn't get that much support. Even if the Wii itself has about (or bigger) the same userbase as PS3+360 combined. It also comes down to who the actual audience is, and why anyone would buy games that have traditionally been known to be games in the game industry. Crap like Just Dance sells millions and more-or-less traditional 3rd party games tank.
the wii has only had 1 legit price drop so far... i think nintendo will just sit on this tech for a few more years to come until they can make something on the level of 360 (or better) at the same price point as the wii's launch. at that point the wii will be down to 150 or something like that.
Also, I feel like the online portion of the Wii is a complete mess and the way to store games you buy online is terribad. That's probably another element.
Not being able to port across systems, i feel, is a big detriment to why Wii really didn't get that much support. Even if the Wii itself has about (or bigger) the same userbase as PS3+360 combined. It also comes down to who the actual audience is, and why anyone would buy games that have traditionally been known to be games in the game industry. Crap like Just Dance sells millions and more-or-less traditional 3rd party games tank.
the wii has only had 1 legit price drop so far... i think nintendo will just sit on this tech for a few more years to come until they can make something on the level of 360 (or better) at the same price point as the wii's launch. at that point the wii will be down to 150 or something like that.
Also, I feel like the online portion of the Wii is a complete mess and the way to store games you buy online is terribad. That's probably another element.
Arpharmd B said:
Gee a game thriving on local multiplayer doing better than a game thriving on online multiplayer with a local multiplayer tacked on it on a system where people don't care about online? Who would have thought it possible!!!!
Which is why Just dance and Wii Sport Resort are such abject failures?leng jai said:
The DS has a lot of great 3rd party games, but how many of them do we call "AAA"? It has a ton of great RPGs, interesting games like Phoenix Wright, Cooking Mama, Nintendogs, Scribblenauts, Trauma Center, Brain Age, The World Ends With You etc, but do we call them "AAA"? No. Because we define AAA as those mega-budget titles - something that is not require on the Wii/DS.
The Wii does not need "AAA" title. It needs more arcady, smaller and interesting titles. Something fresh and crazy like Boom Blox, Rock Band, World of Goo, Bit.Trip etc.
The Dreamcast is a system they should look at - it doesn't have a lot of "AAA" titles, but it was full of smaller budget, weird and crazy new ideas like Space Channel, Crazy Taxi, Seaman, Typing of the Dead etc.
Don't try to go "AAA" or "Mega-Budget" on the Wii. It doesn't need it. The game can look like shit, as long as it has ideas that is so new or out of this world (like Scribblenauts and Wii Fit when they were first introduced) that people would want to try it first hand and it will make noise in the casual community.
And a hint to publishers: making your game price cheap will help. you are selling idea, not production value on the Wii.
The Wii does not need "AAA" title. It needs more arcady, smaller and interesting titles. Something fresh and crazy like Boom Blox, Rock Band, World of Goo, Bit.Trip etc.
The Dreamcast is a system they should look at - it doesn't have a lot of "AAA" titles, but it was full of smaller budget, weird and crazy new ideas like Space Channel, Crazy Taxi, Seaman, Typing of the Dead etc.
Don't try to go "AAA" or "Mega-Budget" on the Wii. It doesn't need it. The game can look like shit, as long as it has ideas that is so new or out of this world (like Scribblenauts and Wii Fit when they were first introduced) that people would want to try it first hand and it will make noise in the casual community.
And a hint to publishers: making your game price cheap will help. you are selling idea, not production value on the Wii.
flyinpiranha
Member
Black Rainbow said:
Well, it could be just a generational fad (yes, stretching it). A success for this round but who knows what will happen next round? If MS and Sony get a majority of the possible Wii2 owners to latch onto their motion control answers for the next 3-5 years the Wii2 might be in for some competition it didn't have this round especially because of the technology difference and it probably being the first out of the gate.
Complete speculation of course. But if Sony and MS do plan on stretching this out for 3-5 years (I'm guessing this rests on the success of Kinect and Move) that puts a lot of pressure on the Wii as a system with failing 3rd party support.
Stink said:
I don't see how this would be the case, Wii had pretty bad third party support from the beginning, not only that but it has progressed at a very similar pace as far as Hardcore titles from Nintendo as the past two generations.
So I don't see how it could be a fad for Hardcore, maybe some decided they wanted HD or didn't care about Nintendo Franchises, but I don't believe that any large segement of Hardcore gamers bought it in hopes of seein big games like Gears of War, Devil May Cry, Final Fantasy.
And if you did, well you you asked to be disappointed.
Black Rainbow
Member
So much of a fad that the competitors are now legitimizing Nintendo's decision to go with gesture controls. Using the words fad and Wii in the same sentence doesn't make sense on any level.leng jai said:
I find it astonishing that people think third party support will be over on the Wii. The install base of the Wii will not diminish once the turn of the year is over. And many have already said it, but holiday 2010 is the best we've seen to date as far as third party efforts are concerned on the Wii. Most of these games, such as NBA Jam, GoldeneEye, Epic Mickey, and Sonic Colors, are games that cater to the Wii audience fairly well. They're not as high risk as something like Muramasa or No More Heroes. We will continue to see third party efforts on the Wii in areas that are proven to work well. There will be less third party support, but unless Move and Kinect make a huge splash, which I'm not sure they will, you won't see bigger publishers dropping Wii support altogether. Understanding the Wii market and the new/old gamers they've brought into mix is intergral to the evolution of this hobby of ours.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Mostly, I was referring to Japan, but I'll say that perceptions are everything at launch. The 360 started out at nothing as well. I'll admit, however that the Madden/CoD audience was for the most part already on 360 by the time the Wii launched. Not much to do about that.Arpharmd B said:
However, the release of a dumbed-down "All Play" version of Madden was idiocy of the worst kind and killed the brand on the system. It alienated what sports game fans there were on Wii and failed to attract new players.
Medal of Honor: Heroes did reasonably well at launch and even got a sequel. Call of Duty wasn't a mega-franchise at the time either. They weren't followed up on, however, and CoD4 Wii arrived a year or two later than the PS360 release.
Simply put, the audience didn't see the variety they wanted or got the releases they wanted and went elsewhere.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Personally, in the last year and a half I haven't bought a single Wii game that wasn't made by Nintendo.
flyinpiranha said:
That put jack shit of pressure since 3rd party have proven unable to make games that can actually threaten even the original wii sport!
the biggest threat to the wii is NOT Nintendo's competitors, it's desinterest. It's the threat that the people that were the Expanded audience, and should have become their Core audience by now, go back to being their Expanded audience because they no longer have any interest in games.
PounchEnvy said:
No, really NO. the local multiplayer options of MH is not up to par especially for the Wii.
Compare the local co op of that game with say....the wiisports, just dance, 2d mario and the other megafranchise on the Wii and you'll see what I mean.
It's not a case of being part of the Wii audience or not, heck the fact that the game doesn't even try to be a wii game is also self defeating (the template of the game was not suited or even adapted to the wii audience either....actually scratch that it wasn't even suited to western audience either)
sorry if this seems a little bit off topic, but you people starting talking about the end of the Wii Cycle, so i started thinkin about what can nintendo next gen?
I couldn't really think of anything that wouldn't bomb. They lucksacked into motion controls and it was a huge craze. They can't really do more precise controls because others are already doing it. They can't really go with great graphics or online gaming since the others already do it and have theirs setup.
I mean, wtf can nintendo do next generation? Feels like a huge struggle for them. They got handhelds on lockdown at least though.
I couldn't really think of anything that wouldn't bomb. They lucksacked into motion controls and it was a huge craze. They can't really do more precise controls because others are already doing it. They can't really go with great graphics or online gaming since the others already do it and have theirs setup.
I mean, wtf can nintendo do next generation? Feels like a huge struggle for them. They got handhelds on lockdown at least though.
flyinpiranha
Member
VerTiGo said:
And this is where I completely see my disconnect. It may not be that the 3rd party offerings are dwindling or not there ... it's just that what I personally wanted was/is not there. I see 1 or 2 games listed on all these Wii bullet point lists that are 20-30 long that even remotely interest me.
Is there actual data that shows 3rd party support is dwindling? Less titles coming out or something? Because I'm of the belief I (we) don't see the support because it's not the games I (we) give a shit about.
Little Green Yoda
Member
flyinpiranha said:
The power difference is obviously an issue but uncertainty of what lies ahead has got to be playing a role. No one knows when Nintendo is going to release the Wii successor; do 3rd parties want to start a 3+ year project now when the Wii could be killed off in a year?
Move/Kinect is at least some implied assurance that PS360 isn't going anywhere fast. 10 year plan and all that jazz.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
flyinpiranha said:
The business model for third party games on the Wii is improving. The platform will not be abandoned. Games like LEGO Harry Potter, Sonic Colors, Epic Mickey, etc.. will continue to exist and prosper on the platform. Hell, even GoldenEye should do moderately well if the sales of Activision's previous FPSes on the Wii are anything to go by. And as games like Donkey Kong Country and Kirby will likely do well on the charts, expect third parties to embrace those designed philosophies on the Wii. No, not all hardcore games will work on the Wii. Yes, hardcore development as we know it will likely diminish, but third parties will continue to create what they know works on the platform.
And even if Move or Kinect do well, the kind of games that sold well on the Wii will make the transition regardless. It's not just the Wii as a platform, but the kind of consumer that the Wii has helped bring into the gaming scene, and understanding and creating/recreating succesful brands based on this consumer is important for the industry's growth as a whole.
OldJadedGamer said:
No Silent Hill? No Muramassa? No A Boy and his Blob? No Tatsunoko vs Capcom? No Red Steel 2? No No More Heroes Desperate Struggle? No Sky Crawlers? No Just Dance?(hey I like it ok?)
I think the Nintendo protection agency need to come and take your Wii into care. Due to your neglect:lol
Stink said:
Such lies. 2010 has unmistakenly been the best year for third party games on the Wii. From No More Heroes 2 to Epic Mickey. It's no contest.
Also, to assume there will be a mass exodus of game development to the 3DS, Move or Natal is a bit overzealous. These are harsh economic times and with its massive install base, publishers still cannot ignore the console which offers the best value to consumers. I don't see things changing as drastically as we may think.
I disagree that 3rd parties brought this on themselves. The Wii wasn't a core gamer machine almost from the beginning. It was pitched as the family, casual machine. Of course we bought it, it's new tech with a new controller and Nintendo franchises. But at the same time 'normal' people bought it, so the user base would have been diluted from the beginning with people who aren't desperate for more games at launch.
Perhaps this meant that 3rd party titles didn't perform as well as expected as a percentage of the use base, partly due to it not conforming to the usual demographic.
Anyway, has this been that different to gamecube, or N64, or GBA, or DS? Seems to me like Nintendo are just too strong a first party, crowding out 3rd parties. At least for casuals which is a large proportion of the user base, why would you have a need to ever go outside the safe range of Nintendo titles?
Perhaps this meant that 3rd party titles didn't perform as well as expected as a percentage of the use base, partly due to it not conforming to the usual demographic.
Anyway, has this been that different to gamecube, or N64, or GBA, or DS? Seems to me like Nintendo are just too strong a first party, crowding out 3rd parties. At least for casuals which is a large proportion of the user base, why would you have a need to ever go outside the safe range of Nintendo titles?
Silver_DNA
Member
Outside of Monster Hunter has any third party put forth the time, money and effort to make a decent game on the Wii so far?
mrklaw said:
3rd party do not like the Wii because you can not predict if a game will be a success or not. This is not the same for the HD twins (you can not avoid all surprises). Wii sold more third parties games than the others, there is more third party million sellers on the Wii, but still, they do not like it.
Stink said:
So was I, and you know what I remember Raving Rabbids and Red Steel, then a bunch of extremely shitty ports (Far Cry anyone?) not to mention all the 3rd parties saying how they where caught by surprise that the Wii was doing so well.
So please, share with me what titles I missed in the first year and ahalf form thid parties that are anywhere on the level of Red Steel 2, No More Hero's 2, Epic Mickey, Silent Hill, Golden Eye.
What? There's tons of third party support. At almost every given moment of this generation, there has been more third party games for Wii than for any other system on the market.
Let's just cut to the real question. What you're really asking is why the Wii doesn't have the next big installments of Resident Evil, GTA, JRPG XIII, Platinum Games Presents, Castlevania Of War, or whatever the hell else it is that's igniting the latest raging message-board megathreads, pixel-counting screenshot wars, and fawning, five-star video reviews.
Thing is, by the time you can sit through a thirty minute cutscene about a gender-bending ninja cyborg limping around to save a mustached, one-eyed super-soldier, you probably also cut pretty deep into the same demographic that spends large quantities of cash on electronic entertainment, buys way more HDMI cables than the per-capita average, and scorns the suggestion of physical exercise encroaching upon their grossly disproportionate interest in recreational software.
What I'm driving at is that if you were to create a ven diagram that mapped out the type of people who are actually interested in the specific types of product that are absent, I'd be willing to bet that you'd find a nearly perfect and complete overlap with the type of people who are interested in better graphics, HDTVs, realistic physics, and online play.
Nintendo's biggest success was identifying that the presumed critical mass of spaceship fantasizing, underboob-ogling, IGN-reading geeks were actually a fractional niche.
It seems pretty clear that this niche is now struggling to catch up with a moment of self-realization.
Hate it, bite it, fight it.....the answer is still, quite simply, that despite the Wii's resounding success, it has not managed, on any level, to corner the increasingly irrelevant traditional market that continually slaps $60 across all of those sweat-smeared Gamestop counters to buy this type of nerdy crap. Those folks run with a different crew.
And without them, you really can't sell Street Fighter.
Oh, I know. You, or I, or Steve, or poster #213, or whichever petition-posting collection of 2,000 people all have Wii's and we like them, and we'd buy 3rd party hardcore games, and blah blah blah whatever.
When it comes to gaming the 'core gamer-market game, the Wii is basically stuck playing the Spock goatee-wearing, inverse-world version of Kinect.
A day late and a dollar short. Just the way it is.
Let's just cut to the real question. What you're really asking is why the Wii doesn't have the next big installments of Resident Evil, GTA, JRPG XIII, Platinum Games Presents, Castlevania Of War, or whatever the hell else it is that's igniting the latest raging message-board megathreads, pixel-counting screenshot wars, and fawning, five-star video reviews.
Thing is, by the time you can sit through a thirty minute cutscene about a gender-bending ninja cyborg limping around to save a mustached, one-eyed super-soldier, you probably also cut pretty deep into the same demographic that spends large quantities of cash on electronic entertainment, buys way more HDMI cables than the per-capita average, and scorns the suggestion of physical exercise encroaching upon their grossly disproportionate interest in recreational software.
What I'm driving at is that if you were to create a ven diagram that mapped out the type of people who are actually interested in the specific types of product that are absent, I'd be willing to bet that you'd find a nearly perfect and complete overlap with the type of people who are interested in better graphics, HDTVs, realistic physics, and online play.
Nintendo's biggest success was identifying that the presumed critical mass of spaceship fantasizing, underboob-ogling, IGN-reading geeks were actually a fractional niche.
It seems pretty clear that this niche is now struggling to catch up with a moment of self-realization.
Hate it, bite it, fight it.....the answer is still, quite simply, that despite the Wii's resounding success, it has not managed, on any level, to corner the increasingly irrelevant traditional market that continually slaps $60 across all of those sweat-smeared Gamestop counters to buy this type of nerdy crap. Those folks run with a different crew.
And without them, you really can't sell Street Fighter.
Oh, I know. You, or I, or Steve, or poster #213, or whichever petition-posting collection of 2,000 people all have Wii's and we like them, and we'd buy 3rd party hardcore games, and blah blah blah whatever.
When it comes to gaming the 'core gamer-market game, the Wii is basically stuck playing the Spock goatee-wearing, inverse-world version of Kinect.
A day late and a dollar short. Just the way it is.
Arpharmd B
Banned
Golden Darkness said:
Yep. 100% on the money.
I'd like to add, though, that in my opinion, Nintendo knows their market so well, their games are hard to compete with. 3rd party fitness games are always second fiddle next to Wii Fit. It will be interesting to see how a game like Your Shape does on a platform (Kinect) where they don't have to compete with Wii Fit.
that is, of course, whether Kinect is a success or not
Silver_DNA said:
Epic Mickey is the biggest third party effort to date. Sonic Colors is also a very large effort by SEGA to create the only retail Sonic game this holiday season.
Third party games that do well on Wii aren't necessarily the ones that specifically cater to the GAF hivemind nor will they ever. And frankly, its quite refreshing.
Arpharmd B
Banned
Hunahan said:
One day I hope to have the type of writing finess as someone like you.
Extremely awesomely well spoken, humorous, to the point, and 100% truth.
I never type this, but:
/thread.
Silver_DNA
Member
VerTiGo said:
Both of those games aren't out yet. The track record for quality is a bit, shall we say, lacking.
ymmv said:
I doubt it. Zelda TP was pretty much alone and late on the GC, even before being delayed. I think Iwata wants Wii Relax to have its chance and just releasing the few JRPGs on the Wii in 2011 would delay Wii2 a bit.
The interesting part for me is how the hardware sales will be after Wii2 announcement. Both ps1 and ps2 sold a lot after their successor being uncovered or even releases, both GC and N64 and Xbox were halted and killed over night. Where the Wii will go is unknown ?
Silver_DNA said:
What games are you talking about? Real efforts we have seen on the platform like RE UB/DSC? Dead Space Extraction? No More Hero's 1/2? Silent Hill Shattered Memories?
There have been plenty of great third party games on the platform over the last year or two. Just because they don't sell doesn't mean that there hasn't been any.