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Let's Talk PC VR

Jayjayhd34

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I really want a vive but don't know where I would put base station I've only got four plug sockets in my flat so already running extension after extension.
 

gifgaf

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I really want a vive but don't know where I would put base station I've only got four plug sockets in my flat so already running extension after extension.
Have you thought about getting a Rift S? you do not need any trackers with that headset. Rift S only needs two leads connected to your PC also, one USB 3 and one Displayport.
 
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Al3x1s

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This one has always looked a bit like Oculus' own Blood & Truth style spy thriller set piece driven kind of game. But way jankier.

Not the same level of production values as Sony AAA stuff but hopefully not quite as on-rails and restricted as that given the Touch capabilities. We'll see.

I'm reading it's only gonna cost $19,99 so I guess it doesn't bode as well for its scope as most (but not all) higher profile Oculus games are 39,99. Or maybe it's gonna be episodic.
 
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UltimaKilo

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I’m interested to see the impressions on the Index and the HTC Cosmos specs. Right now, it’s really sad that Pimax is still the best hardware on the market, even though it needs software and comfort help.

Facebook has clearly killed VR, stuck with low resolution panels and the worst FOV in the business.

Unfortunately it seems like what I am waiting for, is still a couple of years away: 4K per eye, ~150 FOV, inside out tracking, foveate rendering and maybe wireless, not to mention the CPU and GPU you’ll need to run such a headset.
 

Al3x1s

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This looks interesting. I've longed for a SWAT-like VR FPS and this almost goes for the concept, though it has the cartoony + coop with non-VR player gimmicks.

I'll be watching how it develops! The last hotfixes seem to address the complaints the one super negative and harsh for an ea review discusses. Promising!
 
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moniker

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Right now, it’s really sad that Pimax is still the best hardware on the market, even though it needs software and comfort help.
The Index releases in five days. It beats Pimax offerings in optics, motion clarity, stereo overlap, frame rate, comfort and audio solution. Unless you only care about large FOV (horizontal FOV that is, since Index have greater vertical FOV than the Pimax's HMDs), Index will most likely be significantly better.
 

Wonko_C

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Just stumbled upon this thread. Thanks for making it, OP. I might only be a PSVR peasant (That will change, eventually) but I like to follow everything VR. Some of the games linked here make me envious. :messenger_tears_of_joy: Subbed!
 
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TheShadowLord

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It was annoying that capcom didn't port re7 to vive/rift. I would have bought either if I could play re7 in vr. OH and very disappointing that alien isolation never officially support vr but the files are already there.
 

Al3x1s

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It was annoying that capcom didn't port re7 to vive/rift. I would have bought either if I could play re7 in vr. OH and very disappointing that alien isolation never officially support vr but the files are already there.
I was't too miffed since RE7 only had headtracking. If it had hand tracking controls for item and weapon manipulation I'd have been super sour for it never coming to PC for sure.

I do long for a good zombie VR game though. There are some that do this or that aspect right or are super fun and stuff but nothing that compares to a really good single player campaign like RE2 Remake's. That'd be so awesome with in-depth VR features.
 
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UltimaKilo

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The Index releases in five days. It beats Pimax offerings in optics, motion clarity, stereo overlap, frame rate, comfort and audio solution. Unless you only care about large FOV (horizontal FOV that is, since Index have greater vertical FOV than the Pimax's HMDs), Index will most likely be significantly better.
It's also likely much more comfortable. I agree, I'm just waiting for someone to put it all together. By the way, the Index has a pretty good FOV at 130 and the 144hz is very impressive.
 

mindfreak191

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One of the reasons why I still haven't played RE7 is because I'm still secretly hoping that they'll release a Vive port....until then, anyone here playing Onward? :D
 

Come On Tars

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One of the reasons why I still haven't played RE7 is because I'm still secretly hoping that they'll release a Vive port....until then, anyone here playing Onward? :D
This is one of the main reasons I haven't jumped into vr in the first place. I want to start with re7
 

Dontero

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What PC VR needs to sell milions of units:

HMD with 360 movement with good resolution and low screen-door effect and 3D
In other words what people wanted from Oculus kickstarter.

That is it. Nothing else.

No 3D body or position movement tracking, No wiimotes and other garbge that will never make sense for anyone to use more than hour a day for new few weeks before showing everything to shelf and never use it again.
 

Wonko_C

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This is one of the main reasons I haven't jumped into vr in the first place. I want to start with re7
Please don't make RE7 your first VR game without getting your VR legs first. Artificial locomotion+rotation is likely to give you motion sickness. Start with games where you're stationary and only rotate by turning your own body to get used to VR, then play RE7 in short bursts.

I did that training myself and even then I got hit hard with nausea with RE7 once because I was stubborn to keep playing even though I was starting to feel discomfort. Now I can play that game for hours without getting sick.

No 3D body or position movement tracking, No wiimotes and other garbge that will never make sense for anyone to use more than hour a day for new few weeks before showing everything to shelf and never use it again.
Beat Saber and Super Hot are the two best-selling VR games. Both of them rely heavily on positional tracking and "wiimotes and other garbage", and actually make VR a different experience to playing video games... But this isn't the "What VR needs to go mainstream" thread, so W/E.
 
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gifgaf

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What PC VR needs to sell milions of units:

HMD with 360 movement with good resolution and low screen-door effect and 3D
In other words what people wanted from Oculus kickstarter.

That is it. Nothing else.

No 3D body or position movement tracking, No wiimotes and other garbge that will never make sense for anyone to use more than hour a day for new few weeks before showing everything to shelf and never use it again.
I disagree. Beat Saber is one of the biggest games on VR at the moment uses hand tracking. VR and hand tracking go very well together. Playing games like Borderlands, Skyrim, even Res Evil 7 would have been better with hand tracking, I really dislike aiming with my head and that's the only way we could aim without hand tracking.

I get it, not everyone wants to be energetic but you don't have to be. There are games that use controllers, but to ignore hand tracking is silly, hand tracking is needed in VR but not exclusively. Controllers have there place too.
 
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Dontero

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I disagree, Beat Saber, one of the biggest games on VR at the moment uses hand tracking. VR and hand tracking go very well together. Playing games like Borderlands, Skyrim, even Res Evil 7 would have been better with hand tracking, I really dislike aiming with my head and that's the only way we could aim without hand tracking.
"I disagree, Beat Saber, one of the biggest games on VR"

This is precisely my problem. Beat Saber is one of the biggest games on VR.
But it is not one of the biggest games. In fact as far as indie games go it isn't even that much successful.

I played Fallout New Vegas in VR which sold around 10mln coppies at this point.
If Fallout New Vegas had VR from start there would be plently of people who would buy VR for it.

Fallout 4 lately released in VR but since they had to implement VR motion controls and other garbgage like room scale they had to focus only only primary stuff cut out DLC and release it years after release of game.

Sorry but no one is going to spent 800$ in great numbers for VR setup that plays some few indie games and half broken early access games.

So far the best games i play with VR are Dragon's Dogma, RE7 and FNV precisely because they were first good games not just "good VR games"

Good VR games is synonymous with good mobile games aka crap games you like because there is nothing else and you need to lower your standards.

Best VR headset right now is PSVR because you can buy it cheaply used and easily adapt it to PC and play some proper games on it without spending 500$ just to play some early access waggle games.
 
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Wonko_C

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I was't too miffed since RE7 only had headtracking. If it had hand tracking controls for item and weapon manipulation I'd have been super sour for it never coming to PC for sure.

I do long for a good zombie VR game though. There are some that do this or that aspect right or are super fun and stuff but nothing that compares to a really good single player campaign like RE2 Remake's. That'd be so awesome with in-depth VR features.
I disagree, Beat Saber, one of the biggest games on VR at the moment uses hand tracking. VR and hand tracking go very well together. Playing games like Borderlands, Skyrim, even Res Evil 7 would have been better with hand tracking, I really dislike aiming with my head and that's the only way we could aim without hand tracking.
This. While controller games in VR are still cool, having you hands and body in VR is the next level. Blood and Truth with all its janky tracking makes simple things like climbing ladders, opening drawers, crawling through vents, etc. incredibly fun and make you feel like you're starring in an action movie. In controller games like RE7 you just push buttons and aim with your head. It's why think the game's VR mode is overrated.
 
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gifgaf

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This is precisely my problem. Beat Saber is one of the biggest games on VR.
But it is not one of the biggest games. In fact as far as indie games go it isn't even that much successful.
This has nothing to do with not having hand tracking, This is a different argument about VR as a whole. VR and hand tracking compliment each other just like flat screen gaming and controllers do.


I played Fallout New Vegas in VR which sold around 10mln coppies at this point.
If Fallout New Vegas had VR from start there would be plently of people who would buy VR for it.
Have you played fallout 4 without hand tracking? Would you really rather aim with your head than use your hands to aim a gun like you would do in a paintball game, its just not on the same level.

Sorry but no one is going to spent 800$ in great numbers for VR setup that plays some few indie games and half broken early access games.
Again this is a different discussion to the hand tracking, you seem to have a bug up your ass about VR in general.


So far the best games i play with VR are Dragon's Dogma, RE7 and FNV precisely because they were first good games not just "good VR games"
Res Evil 7 is MUCH better in VR without question ask anyone who has played it in VR, but would have been better with hand controllers.

I hear people who play paintball loving VR because it gives them the same thrill, Firewall with the Aim controller is some next level shit for FPS games, it has potential.
 
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gifgaf

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This. While controller games in VR are still cool, having you hands and body in VR is the next level. Blood and Truth with all its janky tracking makes simple things like climbing ladders, opening drawers, crawling through vents, etc. incredibly fun and make you feel like you're starring in an action movie. In controller games like RE7 you just push buttons and aim with your head. It's why think the game's VR mode is overrated.
I agree jank needs to be eliminated, but that isn't the fault of controller, that's the devs implementation of controllers. I remember Jank being in a lot of games as I was growing up and as Devs improved other Devs copied their ideas, I feel we are at that same path with VR atm, Devs need to innovate and copy. I am sure it will come in time.
 
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Dontero

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This has nothing to do with not having hand tracking, This is a different argument about VR as a whole. VR and hand tracking compliment each other just like flat screen gaming and controllers do.
No they do not. Because you have usually small room in which players play and usually they also do not have space for room scale VR. Secondly all additive motion IS BAD for usability like you answering phone by shaking hand instead of tapping on button.

If people wanted to move while playing games they would go and do something else than playing a game.
This is the same reason why Wii died. Because for all this talk about "changing the future of gaming" no one understood that fat gamers aren't going to move and VR proponents are slowly learning it.


Have you played fallout 4 without hand tracking? Res Evil 7 is Way better in VR than on a flat screen and would have been much better with hand tracking, Head tracking to aim a gun sucks.
Yeah i played both VR version in Vr and non VR version in VR and non VR version was better because it did not have cut content and milion bugs (though it had higher reqs). Targeting with your head is better than targeting with controler but it is not like you need to do it. You can easily decouple targeting from view.

Targeting with hands sucks because hands are very slow and you get tired after a while waggling your hands in empty air AND since games who give waggling priority they also like to give priority so that player should stand and use his body too which is non starter like in Fallout 4 VR

Again this is a different discussion to the hand tracking, you seem to have a bug up your ass about VR in general.
VR is simply headset with 360 capability and 3D screen.
Everything else is just bullshit on top that cost money and stifles whole industry from moving forward.


Res Evil 7 is MUCH better in VR without question ask anyone who has played it in VR.
I played it in Vr and i said it is much better in VR. Also precisely because it did not have full motion tracking nor hand tracking which meant you didn't need to stand and waste energy waggling like idiot in your small room hoping not to trash your TV at the same time.

I agree jank needs to be eliminated, but that isn't the fault of controller, that's the devs implementation of controllers. I remember Jank being in a lot of games as I was growing up and as Devs improved other Devs copied their ideas, I feel we are at that same path with VR atm, Devs need to innovate and copy. I am sure it will come in time.
You will not eliminate jank from VR motion controls because you will always have to deal with fact that there is no feedback to what you do. In the end you are using your hands on empty air. So the sword you waggle will always have to go either through stone which makes no sense or stop before that which creates detachment from game-play and what you hands do.

You are asking for impossible. Unless we will get into matrix Territory that is.

This is the same reason why no one plays racing games with motion controls despite almost all consoles and even PC controles having gyro. Because it does not provide feedback and once you take out feedback what you are left with is just slower stick or dpad.
 
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gifgaf

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This is the same reason why Wii died. Because for all this talk about "changing the future of gaming" no one understood that fat gamers aren't going to move and VR proponents are slowly learning it.
Wii died?

The Wii surpassed 100 million units sold on June 30, 2013, selling 210,000 units between March and June 2013. As of March 31, 2016, the Wii has sold 101.63 million units worldwide.

I know many "Fat gamers" I am on the chub side myself. In fact I hear people losing weight all the time playing VR games on reddit. There is nothing wrong with getting some exercise my man.


You are comparing different gaming experiences. firewall Zero hour is much better with the Aim controller, Onward would be a shit show with a joypad. They have their places, as I said before Beat Saber is the biggest game on VR atm, try playing that without hand tracking.

No they do not. Because you have usually small room in which players play and usually they also do not have space for room scale VR. Secondly all additive motion IS BAD for usability like you answering phone by shaking hand instead of tapping on button.
Stop talking for everyone, you speak for you and only you. I know many people who love playing VR games and getting active, I also love lounging about and playing flat games, they both have their place and just because you say hand tracking does not have a place in VR does not make it true. Wii for one is a very different beast it was on a flat screen for one with crappy tracking and as I linked earlier it was far from a failure even though you would like it to be.

You do not need a big space for VR, I am not a advocate for roomscale although i think it is cool. I sit on my couch and play VR with the Oculus Quest all the time recently. It is possible and will become better over time when devs get to grips with the technology. With the Oculus Quest you can VR anywhere, check reddit, there's people playing it on planes.


Yeah i played both VR version in Vr and non VR version in VR and non VR version was better because it did not have cut content and milion bugs (though it had higher reqs). Targeting with your head is better than targeting with controler but it is not like you need to do it. You can easily decouple targeting from view.

Targeting with hands sucks because hands are very slow and you get tired after a while waggling your hands in empty air AND since games who give waggling priority they also like to give priority so that player should stand and use his body too which is non starter like in Fallout 4 VR
How do you aim without looking at the target if you don't use your head to aim? I would really like you to explain that one without using tracking.

Targeting with your hands is much faster than your head, your argument is false.
look up all the other FPS games in VR, Pavlov, Onward, Firewall. I would pay good money to see you try and play those games competitively with head tracking and no hand tracking. not to mention Beat Saber again, try play that with your head.


VR is simply headset with 360 capability and 3D screen.
Everything else is just bullshit on top that cost money and stifles whole industry from moving forward.
Ok, technically it is not a 3D screen its a normal flat screen with 2 different perspectives, but I get what your trying to do and trust me Hand tracking is not holding the industry back. let me make this clear to you again.

VR is not exclusively for hand tracking, just as flat screen gaming is not exclusively for joypads. Mouse, keyboards, Steering Wheels all exist. Do you know that people used to play with light guns on flat screen games too. Hand tracking has its place as does controller support.


I played it in Vr and i said it is much better in VR. Also precisely because it did not have full motion tracking nor hand tracking which meant you didn't need to stand and waste energy waggling like idiot in your small room hoping not to trash your TV at the same time.
Being able to aim with hand tracking would have made it much better imo. I do agree that clicking buttons can be Janky though but that does not dismiss hand tracking as a failure, far from it.
 
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Dontero

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4 years. 4 years and then it died completely. Legacy ? Everyone bailed out from motion gaming only to be recently picked up by new set of developers who got VR and suddenly realized that motion gaming is next big thing despite not doing analysis why it failed last time.

I know many "Fat gamers" I am on the chub side myself.
hear hear mate. Not thin myself.

You are comparing different gaming experiences. firewall Zero hour is much better with the Aim controller, Outlast would be a shit show with a joypad. They have their places. As I said before Beat Saber is the biggest game on VR atm, try playing that without hand tracking.
Biggest game on VR means nothing really when biggest selling exclusive Vr game sells nothing compared to other normal games.

The point here is to have VR in Fallout 4 as standard option without all that crap that forced Betsheda to cut down Fallout 4 AND release it years later.

Stop talking for everyone, you speak for you and only you. I know many people who love playing VR games and getting active, I also love lounging about and playing flat games, they both have their place and just because you say hand tracking does not have a place in VR does not make it true. Wii for one is a very different beast it was on a flat screen for one with crappy tracking and as I linked earlier it was far from a failure even though you would like it to be.
I speak for everyone precisely because VR is failure. And it will until people will realize that their motion gaming heaven they try to reach is stupid dream that will not come.

If not for push for idiotic motion gaming most of games already would have VR mode and you would have whole game to play with with VR. But hey there is nothing worse than bunch of hardware developers who don't know when to stop and it is not the only project that was hurt because of it.

How do you aim without looking at the target if you don't use your head to aim? I would really like you to explain that one without using tracking. Targeting with your hands is much faster than your head your argument is false.
look up all the other FPS games in VR, Pavlov, Onward, Firewall. I would pay good money to see you try and play those games competitively with head tracking and no hand tracking. not to mention Beat Saber again, try play that with your head.
??

You can easily decouple camera from gun and use head for camera and mouse for gun targeting.
Secondly i don't see reason why would i want to play some motion gaming game in first place when whole gameplay is to wagg your hands for some reason. There are plenty of better arcade games that don't require that.

None of those FPS have a thing compared to CS players with mouse and without VR. Hand and finger movement always will be faster than arm movement and head movement. Same as mouse movement vs head movement for camera.


Ok, technically it is not a 3D screen its a normal flat screen with 2 different perspectives, but I get what your trying to do and trust me Hand tracking is not holding the industry back. let me make this clear to you again.
It is holding it back when you can't have proper standard. Imagine for a second that PS5 releases with not one but 15 different pads each having different button setup and different thighs to it. Currently each VR has different controllers who work differently and now you have even newer ones which brakes compatibility with old ones. So if game will be released that uses those new features good fucking luck.

This is why headset alone should be primary thing that should be sold.
It should be either pad or k+m as controls.
Motion gaming, room trackign etc should only be options paid extra like wheel you buy for racing game.

Thanks to it developers wouldn't spend years trying to figure out controls for motion gaming and games like Fallout 4 VR could easily come at release of Fallout 4 not years after.
 

Al3x1s

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Comparing 1:1 true to life tracking that lets you do almost anything in 3D space with Wiimotes (Plus) just shows ignorance. Either you haven't experienced PC VR at all, played a bad game or played badly and left it at that, or you're trolling. You don't have to like it, but it's on a different league.

It's like saying you prefer to play an arcade lightgun game on an emulator with a mouse or analog stick controlling the cursor rather than aiming a real feeling gun in the arcades because it's shitty waggling and the gun isn't totally like a real gun in the recoil and its other features (ignoring it's so much closer to that than any other control method) plus because you simply perform better with a mouse than when you have to properly aim the lightgun (duh). That's just missing the point. You don't have to like lightgun games of course, but a mouse doesn't improve them.

To say good games can't work with that level of precise motion control (on top of tried and true inputs like analog sticks and buttons which all good VR controllers employ for locomotion and other features that aren't natural when just standing in place where arm/hand actions remain as natural as anything regardless) which basically makes your in game avatar part of your body and adds to the feeling of presence in the game world and liken that to waggling is like saying you waggle in real life every minute of the day. Yes there's only visual, audio and vibration feedback (for now) rather than physical forces working against you but it's enough for it to work and good game design works around it, just as it works around reality in conventional games which also don't try to simulate all physics properly in a sword fight or in whatever situation and go for fun first.

Good VR games do the same and work natural, intuitive controls in fun game rules and design.

Trying to claim it holds VR back just because of some bad games is absurd, even the simple iteration from digital to analog controls took time to become standardized. Game design takes work so yes, some devs do it wrong when they don't have other games to look at how they did it and just work off that with their own twist on top. Already plenty VR games do this or that aspect right, whether it's shooting guns (or the degree to which they simulate other functions like reloading) and bows, or using melee weapons, or employing natural unique locomotion that suits their theme (like Lone Echo's zero gravity stuff). Maybe not every VR dev has played them all to work off their proven concept so some needlessly reinvent the wheel but don't always make it as smooth (for example on Touch the grab button tends to be the middle finger trigger but the other day I played a game that used the index finger triggers as grab, which felt jarring, especially as they also doubled as other actions). Just as there are conventional games with bad controls even after all these years and controllers that have barely evolved. That's not the tech, it's the game.

And lol at comparing CS players to PC VR FPS players in efficiency or in whatever. How do you even try that? That's like saying paintball or airsoft players or whatever else suck for liking these activities because with the mouse a CS player handily beats them in target practice if you build a map with the same specifications as the real life places the others engage in. The fuck? They're completely different skillsets, gameplay and fun factors. So no, you won't land headshots as well as you can with a mouse because you haven't practiced as much with something that resembles proper aiming of a weapon to that degree. Duh. Pros will still murder you as CS pros murder newbies, if not more so. If you just want to be efficient you might as well praise aimbots for their efficiency over actually playing a game.

When I first played airsoft I constantly dropped my mags and actually lost one in the field. That didn't make me go, eh, CS is superior because everything is a click of a button and you can't mess up if you want to, lol. Similarly I often messed up my reloading in the first VR FPS I played that simulated it all relatively properly, it was hard for me to both move around with the analog stick and reload a weapon at the same time, I once panicked after dropping a grenade at my feet and bumped into my desk as I physically ran away (lol) and so on. Practice makes perfect.

I like VR fps for how they feel like I have to actually aim/lean/cover/whatever, as I liked lightgun games, yet now I can have that kind of fun with full 3D game freedom (with next level possibilities like blind fire or any kind of 3D space leaning around objects rather than preset lean and cover settings in conveniently placed chest high cover) rather than on rails (in a manner that is convenient and intuitive, not like early attempts with unsuited hardware like Capcom's Gun Survivor, ha). Liking that doesn't mean I don't also like shooting games with other types of input like controlling my crosshair in Blood Bros or Sin & Punishment or the camera in a PC FPS, it's just a completely new and different kind of fun and gameplay. I really don't get how you can be so ignorant with your comparisons and lack of understanding, it's not that hard to get it, I got it before I played in VR.

By the way Oculus at first did only come with a gamepad as Touch wasn't ready and all the early Oculus funded first party games are basically standard games that you happen to have headtracking in. They (and all other VR providers) evolved from that early iteration for a reason. Plus if you just want to play seated games without motion controls those are still made too, like Moss, Super Lucky's Tale, all the cockpit-based games which support gamepads, hotas, or wheels, so it's not like the motion controllers restrict that, they generally have all the traditional inputs on top of being fully tracked in 3D space so developers can choose to utilize them like that. Why would they stop offering motion tracking and restrict those players and the potential buyers for developers who want more to offer what they already offer on top of that?
 
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Wonko_C

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I agree jank needs to be eliminated, but that isn't the fault of controller, that's the devs implementation of controllers. I remember Jank being in a lot of games as I was growing up and as Devs improved other Devs copied their ideas, I feel we are at that same path with VR atm, Devs need to innovate and copy. I am sure it will come in time.
I was specifically talking about the PlayStation Moves, which are ancient by today's standards. I briefly tried the Vive wands at a VR Arcade and was floored with the precision, it was light years ahead of the Move wands. It made me wish I could win the lottery and get a powerful PC+the full Valve Index package.

But that's what I love about VR. The medium is in its growing pains and experimental stages, everybody is throwing everything to it to see what sticks, it's like living the early days of console gaming all over again. And at my nearly 40's, getting that feeling from my childhood all over again is priceless.
 
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gifgaf

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4 years. 4 years and then it died completely. Legacy ? Everyone bailed out from motion gaming only to be recently picked up by new set of developers who got VR and suddenly realized that motion gaming is next big thing despite not doing analysis why it failed last time.
The wii is the 5th highest grossing console of all time, and you say it died. Cmon, It outsold any Microsoft console, it died because of a new generation of consoles. It was the casual gamer console of choice for that gen.


Biggest game on VR means nothing really when biggest selling exclusive Vr game sells nothing compared to other normal games.
But it does mean everything, people prefer to play beatsaber and it is a system seller for now. Not having motion controls will not make VR sell more. I thought about this comment and then decided I cant say that with any proof, for EG: the PSVR sold the most headsets so far and it didn't come with motion controls, I still stand by my other points though.


You can easily decouple camera from gun and use head for camera and mouse for gun targeting.
Suggesting that people in VR use a mouse an keyboard is crazy, you can't see the keyboard in VR and if you want VR to go mainstream you have to make the controls intuitive for the casuals, hence motion controls which is nothing like the Wiimotion I might add.


None of those FPS have a thing compared to CS players with mouse and without VR. Hand and finger movement always will be faster than arm movement and head movement. Same as mouse movement vs head movement for camera.
You can't compare a fast game like CS to VR games. It's a different medium, PC players would kick VR players just because VR players would be puking constantly. :messenger_winking:

Pavlov is a close CS clone though and its much slower than CS because of that fact, You cant blind fire in CS but you can in Pavlov and its intuitive to do so.


It is holding it back when you can't have proper standard. Imagine for a second that PS5 releases with not one but 15 different pads each having different button setup and different thighs to it. Currently each VR has different controllers who work differently and now you have even newer ones which brakes compatibility with old ones. So if game will be released that uses those new features good fucking luck.

This is why headset alone should be primary thing that should be sold.
It should be either pad or k+m as controls.
Motion gaming, room trackign etc should only be options paid extra like wheel you buy for racing game.
Using a keyboard in VR is a terrible idea for the majority and casuals, you cant see it with a headset on.

Valve Index sells headset only, PSVR sells headset only, Oculus Rift and Quest are only 400 not the 800 you mentioned a few posts ago and come with motion controls. I see what you mean, you dont like motion controls so you want everyone to give up motion controls so you get games that cater to only your tastes, that's not nice, I like motion controls.
 
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gifgaf

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I was specifically talking about the PlayStation Moves, which are ancient by today's standards. I briefly tried the Vive wands at a VR Arcade and was floored with the precision, it was light years ahead of the Move wands. It made me wish I could win the lottery and get a powerful PC+the full Valve Index package.

But that's what I love about VR. The medium is in its growing pains and experimental stages, everybody is throwing everything to it to see what sticks, it's like living the early days of console gaming all over again. And at my nearly 40's, getting that feeling from my childhood all over again is priceless.
Got ya, sorry. PSVR is defiantly the lower tier VR but I still love it even though I have PCVR, the games make that headset worth it.
 
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Wonko_C

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The wii is the 5th highest grossing console of all time, and you say it died. Cmon, It outsold any Microsoft console, it died because of a new generation of consoles. It was the casual gamer console of choice for that gen.
To add to that: Nintendo is known to change it up drastically every generation, so the Wii-mote didn't "die" because Nintendo thought it was a failure, infact Nintendo never abandoned motion controls as they were natively supported by the Wii U, and the Switch Joycons have more advanced motion tech, which BTW are an integral part of Labo VR. I wouldn't be surprised if their next system supported portable and docked gaming, plus VR with joycons featuring more advanced motion controls out of the box.
 
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Al3x1s

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Thanks for this topic. I'm hoping to get the Index sometime fairly soon and it'll be my second VR, though a rather enormous step up from my first (Google Daydream). I'll definitely be looking into the games posted here.
 
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Al3x1s

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So to sum things up, hovering grinder, guns, and co-op glory is the name of THIS game with our summer update, available NOW!
Sounds like a meaty update with a neat co-op mode :)

Random stream of peeps playing:
 
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marcb

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you dont like motion controls so you want everyone to give up motion controls so you get games that cater to only your tastes, that's not nice, I like motion controls.
I don't think that's what he's saying.

VR was originally penned in as a visual device, the logical next step from 3D TV, a monitor placed on your head to give you more immersion. But now the focus has shifted from the visuals to the controllers, as demonstrated with all the new release headsets not really being much of a step up with their screens and optics but more towards how many tracking cameras or fingers you can use.

I can't think of many games which wouldn't benefit from having a VR headset mode added to them, but I'm guess VR modes aren't added to these larger games due to the complexities of catering for all the different controller schemes and having to re-write how their games work with arm/finger movements.

If VR had stuck to the headset only for a generation or two before introducing motion controllers then maybe it would have been the norm for many AAA games to have VR modes built in to them from the start, rather than having a market saturated with 10 minute quick fix wave your hands around stuff like we have now.
 

gifgaf

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If VR had stuck to the headset only for a generation or two before introducing motion controllers then maybe it would have been the norm for many AAA games to have VR modes built in to them from the start, rather than having a market saturated with 10 minute quick fix wave your hands around stuff like we have now.
Yeah I was being facetious with that comment, I apologise. I hope I am not coming across as aggressive, that is not my intent I just have some opinions on VR, its probably the only thing on Neogaf that I can talk about with a little experience and enjoy the discussion.


I can't think of many games which wouldn't benefit from having a VR headset mode added to them, but I'm guess VR modes aren't added to these larger games due to the complexities of catering for all the different controller schemes and having to re-write how their games work with arm/finger movements.
I agree many games would be better with VR for immersion IMO, many FPS games would be perfect fit in VR, modders are adding VR to many FPS games all the time, Doom 3, Alien resurrection, Quake, these games are improved with VR due to how VR works. Im not saying that you will be as competitive in CS as a keyboard player but that is one game only. There is Rec Room that has keyboard and VR players and that has paintball, I haven't looked up how competitive they are against each other though, that would be interesting to look at. CS is one game and it is made as a fast keyboard and mouse game, put a joypad FPS in VR and I would not count out the VR players to be at least competitive especially if its a slower paced VR game like Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege. Immersion is the keyword of the day when it comes to adding VR to older games, competitiveness is unproven but immersion is what VR is all about and I love revisiting old games in VR, it gives the games a new lease of life.

[Edit]
I just looked up some discussion about Rec Room and keyboard players, it does seem that they are more competative than VR players, Oh well, I don't think that hurts my argument that motion controls in VR are not hurting VR, being able to flick around with a keyboard like you do in flat screen FPS games would be a pukeathon for VR players. I still think Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege would be a perfect fit for VR, Firewall Zero Hour has made me want it.



I disagree with Dontero's standpoint, as I said earlier, PSVR sells headset only without move controllers and Oculus Rift originally sold with a MS Xbox one controller before it made the Touch controllers. You can buy headsets without the controls and Devs do make many games without motion controls.

His argument about Wii motion controls is flawed because they didn't "Die" even though gamers like to shit all over the Wii and motion controls it was a big seller, as Wonko_c pointed out Nintendo is still using motion controls to this day. I will admit I do not like the motion controls on the Nintendo hardware though and use a controller every time on a flat screen, that being said motion controls in VR are worlds apart from flat screen gaming motion controls and you can have both motion and joypad controls. Dontero is advocating the use of a mouse and keyboard in VR which is not a good idea because although you can intuitively use a mouse in VR you cannot with a keyboard. Your hands move about too much the majority of people will have to look down at some point to reorient their hands and that becomes difficult with a headset on unless you remove the headset.

The gear VR started of with only Joypad controls before the 3DoF controller came out and that didn't magically sell better due to no motion controls, The Oculus Go has a 3DoF controller and a lot of games of games use a joypad but the Oculus Quest that has full 6DoF motion controls is shitting all over the Oculus Go sales because it has 6DoF controllers not in spite of them.

I want motion controls in my VR games, I also enjoy Joypad controlled games, you can have both. The backup to my argument is that Beat Saber, one of the most energetic games in VR is one of VR's biggest seller and frequently tops steams most played list.

VRLFG right now is showing Beat Saber at the top with over triple the amount to the next game which is also another motion controlled game, funnily enough the second most played game is Pavlov at the time of writing this post and that is the clone of CS which is the game Dontero used as an example earlier.

VR has only been available to the masses for around 4 years, Devs are still trying to work out the kinks, games over the years have evolved from janky games back in the 80's to the games we have now because Devs have tweaked the formulas constantly, but it has taken years to get here. I feel VR has that same problem, devs do not know how to make the best of the hardware and are falling back on tried and tested methods with flat screen games, even without motion controls they have that problem.

An example in flat screen gaming terms could be when hardware became powerful enough for 3D gaming, many third person games in the PS1 era were janky as hell, Mario 64 showed devs how that could change and it did change the landscape of 3d platformers. Goldeneye on the N64 is a game I loved but cannot play anymore because it plays like shit compared to modern FPS games. VR needs time that's all, let the game developers play with it and improve. There are already some standout titles that other devs will copy and that will snowball over time I hope and that's were it will start becoming mass appealing IMO.
 
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marcb

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I'm not really a fan of motion controllers. I Used them quite a lot when I first got my Vive but slowly moved on to only enjoying playing games which are seated with a controller. I can see motion controllers have their place with games specifically designed around them like aiming in wave shooters or music games. But they're not my type of game anyway as I prefer to settle down into a longer type adventure game.
Moving my arm about and pressing a button to say open a door or collecting an item rather than just pressing a button adds nothing. It's an added complexity which I don't think is needed.

Don't get me started on teleport movement.
 
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gifgaf

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I'm not really a fan of motion controllers. I Used them quite a lot when I first got my Vive but slowly moved on to only enjoying playing games which are seated with a controller. I can see motion controllers have their place with games specifically designed around them like aiming in wave shooters or music games. But they're not my type of game anyway as I prefer to settle down into a longer type adventure game.
Moving my arm about and pressing a button to say open a door or collecting an item rather than just pressing a button adds nothing. It's an added complexity which I don't think is needed.

Don't get me started on teleport movement.
I respect your opinion and agree that chilling with a game and a controller is something I have done for years and love but why not have both? People use steering wheels for racing games and that doesn't hurt racing games. There is also different degrees of motion controls in games, not just 100% all go super energetic motion.

Beat saber is one extreme of motion controls sure, I can understand you don't want to swing your arms about all the time but PokerstarVR is on the more chilled side of the spectrum. I sit on my couch with the Oculus Quest and play PokerstarsVR with the motion controls, grabbing the cards to look at them, tossing them when I fold, grabbing chips and tossing them when I bet, all these small motion's are much more satisfying than pressing a joypad to move an icon to the item you want and selecting them and they are not big movements. Small and more intuitive controls than a joypad can deliver in that game, If you played poker in real life you would be doing the same motions, even more so because PokerstarsVR simplify's some things.

VR and motion controls go together very well like a joypad and flat screen games do, much better than flat screen gaming and motion controls ever did. Just like paint ball is a game people like to play because they cant get a gun and shoot anyone they want but they enjoy the feeling of holding a gun and aiming, its a different feeling than aiming a cursor.
 
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marcb

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which brings me back to my point..

VR headsets and motion controls are both in their infant stages. IMO very few games manage to pull off a genuinely great VR experience, for eg. Elite Dangerous, RE7, Project Cars, Wipeout, Skyrim, Hellblade. Yet instead of devs aiming to raise the bar to continuously hit this level of immersion we're getting an uneven balance tilt towards motion controls.
Now I'm not saying doing motion controls is easy, I'm saying it's a moving target due to controllers changing each year. What started out as a wand turned into a grip, which turned into finger tracking etc, yet they haven't managed to get the main actual movement around the virtual world nailed down.
If the focus was tilted towards the virtual environment it'd progress naturally as flat monitor game graphics improve, but we aren't really seeing that. What we have are a majority of VR games being simplified visually and gameplay-wise due to over complex motion controller mechanics.

I know I'm not speaking for everyone here, all this is my own opinion, but I'd rather be in a place where I have a choice of playing lots of VR games similar to Assassins Creed, Dead Space etc and being visually immersed in a huge world to explore with a controller, rather than be in our current place in which a large chunk of VR gameplay involves hitting blobs in time to music or shooting at a never ending horde of undead with different mainly static backdrops. It's like we've moved forward in technology but moved back to the ZX Spectrum era gameplay-wise.
 
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gifgaf

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It's like we've moved forward in technology but moved back to the ZX Spectrum era gameplay-wise.
This is exactly right, Devs need time to experiment not just because of motion controls, but because of VR as a whole is a different medium to flat screen gaming. There are games out there for your taste though and there are games that cater to both motion and joypad games, Ignoring motion isn't fair because some people do not like it, there are others that do. You don't like beat saber but its the most played game atm, I am not a fan of football games but its a huge market and I would never dismiss it just because I don't like it.

Skyrim is better because of motion controls imo, I dislike head aiming, its not as precise and feels strange to me, but I wouldn't want it left out, choice is good. Project cars is much better with a steering wheel than a joypad in VR imo, it fulfils that immersion factor but you are doing more work to play it than a joypad.


Please understand that I completely agree with your points except dropping motion controls just because some people don't want them, we should cater for all tastes. Motion controls are not VR's biggest problem and I think they are a plus not a minus.
 
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marcb

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Please understand that I completely agree with your points except dropping motion controls just because some people don't want them, we should cater for all tastes. Motion controls are not VR's biggest problem and I think they are a plus not a minus.
I'm not saying drop motion controls. I'm saying that current game line up is tilted too much in the balance of motion control gameplay rather than actual gameplay. Good gameplay is a good gameplay with or without VR. How many of those beatsabre type games would you still actually play without the headset or motion controls.

I'd hazard a guess that quite a few game devs create levels of their flat screen games in VR to test but then scrap it due to not being able to figure out a way the implement the motion controls in to it.
 
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gifgaf

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I'm not saying drop motion controls. I'm saying that current game line up is tilted too much in the balance of motion control gameplay rather than actual gameplay. Good gameplay is a good gameplay with or without VR. How many of those beatsabre type games would you still actually play without the headset or motion controls.

I'd hazard a guess that quite a few game devs create levels of their flat screen games in VR to test but then scrap it due to not being able to figure out a way the implement the motion controls in to it.
I think your right and it is that devs do not know how to make use of motion controls effectively yet, they need time to experiment just as they did when 3D accelerator cards came out and more powerful hardware, older 3D games were janky as hell compared to what we have now, but putting VR into a game without motion controls seems more trivial, I have played many older games that do not support motion controls and they work just fine, I cant imagine a dev ignoring VR just because they couldn't work motion controls into the game or I hope not.

Maybe you have a point there but I feel devs would be more scared of motion sickness than motion controls.
 
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marcb

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I cant imagine a dev ignoring VR just because they couldn't work motion controls into the game or I hope not.

Alien Isolation, [cough cough] What a great game with VR built straight in to it from the start and tossed away because...????
 

gifgaf

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Alien Isolation, [cough cough] What a great game with VR built straight in to it from the start and tossed away because...????
That game was out way before motion controls in VR were even a thing. So sickness is my guess.
 

RokkanStoned

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The thing is that VR isn't just another "display device". Playing a VR game without headtracking, but using a conventional controller shows that pretty well. Just converting games just doesn't seem to do it, as also conveyed by Playstation developers as well.

Not only do you have motion sickness to consider, but just thinking about how to get the game to be converted in a functional way that doesn't break immersion doesn't seem feasible. VR is intense as well, so it doesn't seek to completely beat out conventional couch gaming.
Motion controls are fundamental to the sense of presence and immersion into a VR game, into going much further than "just a display device". Sure, you could theoretically play most games with a controller, but then you're just treating VR as a TV and one would be poised to ask why not just play it on the TV? Or just use a desktop large screen in VR? VRs goal is to go way beyond conventional gaming. That's why motion control technology keeps improving and why you have options for physical movement being iterated as well.
Also, "motion control gameplay" and "actual gameplay" is a pretty weird distinction as well. Gameplay is generally still the same, but without the simplification that exist in controller gameplay. That means you usually are supposed to do the actual motion yourself, instead of following a string of pre-made attacks. Heck, you can even do conventional games, but they are better if designed for VR, as shown by Lucky's Tale. But being stuck to conventional gaming would be the actual step back, because motion controls are a part of bringing gaming to a complete new level. Most things in games are simplifications or abstractions replacing the fantasy/design it's supposed to replicate.
 

marcb

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possibly. I played through it on my DK2. Tried the VR mod the other week and it played terrible. Still looked gorgeous in VR though.
 

marcb

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The thing is that VR isn't just another "display device".
I believe it is. It's basically a stereoscopic 3d screen stuck to your face with headtracking instead of using a mouse pointer to align your view.

Playing a VR game without headtracking, but using a conventional controller shows that pretty well. Just converting games just doesn't seem to do it, as also conveyed by Playstation developers as well.
Nobody is saying not to have headtracking.

Not only do you have motion sickness to consider, but just thinking about how to get the game to be converted in a functional way that doesn't break immersion doesn't seem feasible. VR is intense as well, so it doesn't seek to completely beat out conventional couch gaming.
VorpX , although not perfect, shows you just how easy it is for a lot of games to be converted to VR. I dislike VorpX but I do try it on occasion to test. I dreamed of Skyrim and Wipeout in VR from the moment I put it on a 3d TV with Nvidia stereo drivers. And surprise. They're two of the most loved VR games.

Motion controls are fundamental to the sense of presence and immersion into a VR game, into going much further than "just a display device". Sure, you could theoretically play most games with a controller, but then you're just treating VR as a TV and one would be poised to ask why not just play it on the TV? Or just use a desktop large screen in VR? VRs goal is to go way beyond conventional gaming. That's why motion control technology keeps improving and why you have options for physical movement being iterated as well.
Because some of us don't gain any presence or immersion from standing in the middle of a room waving our arms around. Being able to look around a full scale 3d world is what impresses me, not how I should stretch out my arm to pick a virtual apple up from a virtual table.

Also, "motion control gameplay" and "actual gameplay" is a pretty weird distinction as well. Gameplay is generally still the same, but without the simplification that exist in controller gameplay. That means you usually are supposed to do the actual motion yourself, instead of following a string of pre-made attacks. Heck, you can even do conventional games, but they are better if designed for VR, as shown by Lucky's Tale. But being stuck to conventional gaming would be the actual step back, because motion controls are a part of bringing gaming to a complete new level. Most things in games are simplifications or abstractions replacing the fantasy/design it's supposed to replicate.
But it isn't. Motion controllers are terribly hit and miss. Look at WMR vs Vive. How many times I've died in games trying to go through with a gun reload by moving my arms and it not registering or accidentally pulling a food item from a backpack rather than a sword. I know what actions I should be doing, the game/controllers don't have a clue and get it wrong.
Also I don't like being forced to play games with added on shit motion controller mechanics (looking at you Fallout 4 VR and PS4 Solus Project) when the game was designed around a controller is just stupid.

If you like that sort of thing then fine. I don't.
 
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