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Local law seeks to ban smoking in your own vehicles.

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ToxicAdam

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http://www.newsnet5.com/news/5191366/detail.html

Parma Heights Proposal Would Ban Smoking In Car With Kids
Law Would Be Enforced As Secondary Offense


POSTED: 4:50 pm EDT October 27, 2005

PARMA HEIGHTS, Ohio -- A battle is brewing in Parma Heights over a proposed ban on lighting up in a car if you're driving with children, reported NewsChannel5.

Parma Heights City Councilman Rick Schwachenwald wants to make it illegal to smoke in a car with kids under 18.

Schwachenwald says if you can ban smoking in public, then why not protect people from secondhand smoke in vehicles?

The measure would actually be an amendment to an 18-year ban on smoking in public places in Parma Heights.

Police would enforce the law as a secondary offense, similar to if you're pulled over and not wearing a seat belt.

Parma Hts is a suburb of Cleveland, OH.



A final decision is not expected for weeks.
 

Phoenix

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While I agree with the sentiment of this law, its really starting to push into uncharted dangerous territory. With this sort of precedent you aren't far removed from saying that you can't smoke in your own home with children under 18 present and if the police happen to come knocking, they can give you a citation.
 

-=DoAvl=-

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Jun 10, 2004
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what's the point of smoking altogether?

i say let's put poison in cigarettes!!



oh wait, they already do.
 

Geek

Ninny Prancer
Feb 2, 2005
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Bah.

You should have chosen the OTHER thread title: "Local law seeks to outlaw giving children cancer".
 

Deku Tree

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They should only enforce this law for kids under the age of 18 smoking with their friends in cars (with no adults present).
 

Scrow

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Jun 6, 2004
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Phoenix said:
While I agree with the sentiment of this law, its really starting to push into uncharted dangerous territory. With this sort of precedent you aren't far removed from saying that you can't smoke in your own home with children under 18 present and if the police happen to come knocking, they can give you a citation.
they'll need a warrant first, wont they?
 

pnjtony

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I also agree with the sentiment, but the fact that the parents smoke at all just increases the chance that their kids will be smokers, plus all the second hand they get in other places...I just see this law as someone trying to make a mark.

When I was in the Air Force, officers would make these dumbass policy changes that really didn't do anything, but it was always a good bullet point for when they have annual reviews. I would assume something similar exists with the people behind this proposition.
 

Phoenix

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Scrow said:
they'll need a warrant first, wont they?
No, the wouldn't have to search if they smelled smoke from the door. If they have probable cause (i.e. I can see them smoking while holding a baby, or I see the smoke and see children running around), then no they don't need a warrant.
 

Lucky Forward

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Police would enforce the law as a secondary offense, similar to if you're pulled over and not wearing a seat belt..
That's how they snuck the seatbelt law into Maryland back in the nineties. At first it was just a secondary offense, within a few years they changed it so the police could pull you over solely for not wearing a seatbelt.
 

Phoenix

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Lucky Forward said:
That's how they snuck the seatbelt law into Maryland back in the nineties. At first it was just a secondary offense, within a few years they changed it so the police could pull you over solely for not wearing a seatbelt.
Yep. I keep telling people to not open the door to anyone taking any of their rights, even in the slightest because if you open the door for it to be taken a little bit, you open the door for them to be taken entirely - but people don't listen.
 

Outcast2004

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As far as I'm concerned smoking as a whole should be banned/outlawed.

It's a pointless and dangerous habit. Add disgusting to that list as well.

But I do agree with this law, I've seen kids in my own family that have a hard time breathing at 10 because inconsiderate parents who wont roll the fucking window down.


you're god damned idiot if you're a smoker and do it around your kids. Nothing like endangering THEIR health for your quick fix.
 

Drensch

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While I agree with the sentiment of this law, its really starting to push into uncharted dangerous territory. With this sort of precedent you aren't far removed from saying that you can't smoke in your own home with children under 18 present and if the police happen to come knocking, they can give you a citation.
qft
 

SoVos20

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May 11, 2005
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I support this law, children need protection from this sort of thing. Vary dangerous to smoke in a car with a child, you are placing that child at great risk. Not much different than this and abuse IMHO.
 

Exis

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Outcast2004 said:
As far as I'm concerned smoking as a whole should be banned/outlawed.

It's a pointless and dangerous habit. Add disgusting to that list as well.
.
Yes because what I do to my own body is any of your business…

I smoke cigarettes and weed and both should be legal as neither effect anyone but myself.


-Exis
 

Teflar

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Granted parents should not be smoking around children, I don't think anyone will argue that point.

But God Damnit, let me smoke my cigs! Banning them in bars wasn't bad enough now they want to watch me in my car too? I mean, I can understand the bar thing, ok I have no problem taking it outside. Banning it in public places? Sure, ok... Seems a bit unfair, but I might be bothering someone, I'll take it to my porch. Banning it in my car? Shit. What's next? I can't smoke in my house?

As for making smoking illegal, HAH. They tried a prohibition of sorts, remember? That didn't work out so well. Don't even get me started on legalization... It is up to me if I want to poison my body. You want to do it with alcohol, go ahead. Perscription drugs your thing? Knock yourself out. I get that there's no "secondary smoke" from these to bother others, and that's why I'm ok with taking my (admittedly bad) habit somewhere it won't bother people. I do the same when I'm on my cell phone.

But banning smoking from private places is unnecessary. If parents are smoking around new borns/children they have larger parenting problems then cigarettes.
 

SoVos20

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Teflar said:
Granted parents should not be smoking around children, I don't think anyone will argue that point.

But God Damnit, let me smoke my cigs! Banning them in bars wasn't bad enough now they want to watch me in my car too? I mean, I can understand the bar thing, ok I have no problem taking it outside. Banning it in public places? Sure, ok... Seems a bit unfair, but I might be bothering someone, I'll take it to my porch. Banning it in my car? Shit. What's next? I can't smoke in my house?

As for making smoking illegal, HAH. They tried a prohibition of sorts, remember? That didn't work out so well. Don't even get me started on legalization... It is up to me if I want to poison my body. You want to do it with alcohol, go ahead. Perscription drugs your thing? Knock yourself out. I get that there's no "secondary smoke" from these to bother others, and that's why I'm ok with taking my (admittedly bad) habit somewhere it won't bother people. I do the same when I'm on my cell phone.

But banning smoking from private places is unnecessary. If parents are smoking around new borns/children they have larger parenting problems then cigarettes.
If you have children in the house then IMHO smoking in the house is commiting assult and battery against those kids.
 

AirBrian

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There are few things in life that are worse than the smell of smoke coming through the car vents (especially at stop lights). And by the time you smell it, you can’t change the air control to recycle from inside the car, so you’re stuck either way inhaling that crap.

I think I might have to support this law.
 

Dilbert

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SoVos20 said:
If you have children in the house then IMHO smoking in the house is commiting assult and battery against those kids.
Exaggerate much?

I agree with Phoenix 100% -- this is the first step towards a larger infringement of rights and should be fought. Smoking around children is stupid and endangers their health, but a) your private space is your private space and b) you can't legislate enough to fix all the bad parents in the world.
 

pnjtony

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-jinx- said:
Exaggerate much?

I agree with Phoenix 100% -- this is the first step towards a larger infringement of rights and should be fought. Smoking around children is stupid and endangers their health, but a) your private space is your private space and b) you can't legislate enough to fix all the bad parents in the world.
IAWTP

Or fix all the places that children are exposed to it. It's not like cars are the only place kids are at risk to be exposed to second hand smoke.

If you wanna protect children, don't go after the people smoking in their cars...take on the tobacco companies or something or the governments that allow them to do what they do.
 

Minotauro

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-jinx- said:
Exaggerate much?

I agree with Phoenix 100% -- this is the first step towards a larger infringement of rights and should be fought. Smoking around children is stupid and endangers their health, but a) your private space is your private space and b) you can't legislate enough to fix all the bad parents in the world.
Absolutely. Shit, next thing you know, they're going to start trying to make it illegal for parents to take their children to McDonald's because they just might have a heart attack fifty years later.

Plus, the dangers of second hand smoke are blown way out of proportion. The way some of these anti-smoking zealots make it sound, smoking around a child would be equivalent to injecting them with HIV.
 

Outcast2004

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Exis said:
Yes because what I do to my own body is any of your business…

I smoke cigarettes and weed and both should be legal as neither effect anyone but myself.


-Exis
BULL SHIT

Ever heard of second hand smoke?

Second Hand s much worse than the shit you injest. It's not filtered like the toxins you spew willingly into your lungs.

If I go out to eat I dont want your dumb ass blowing smoke all around me while I'm trying to enjoy my meal. You may have the right to do whatever you want to your body,but I have equal rights to want a clean air environment and not smell the stench and toxins of your inconsiderate smoking.

It's this type of blatant ignorance that makes me want them to ban smoking period.

What you do in your own home though, is no business of mine. Just keep it away from me.
 

Minotauro

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Outcast2004 said:
BULL SHIT

Ever heard of second hand smoke?

Second Hand s much worse than the shit you injest. It's not filtered like the toxins you spew willingly into your lungs.

If I go out to eat I dont want your dumb ass blowing smoke all around me while I'm trying to enjoy my meal. You may have the right to do whatever you want to your body,but I have equal rights to want a clean air environment and not smell the stench and toxins of your inconsiderate smoking.

It's this type of blatant ignorance that makes me want them to ban smoking period.

What you do in your own home though, is no business of mine. Just keep it away from me.
Take a look at the following essay and read over some of the links contained within...

http://www.houseofdiabolique.com/archives/smoking012603.html

There are a lot of myths in the public consciousness about second-hand smoke. If you don't like the smell of smoke, that's fine. Self-righteous blather about your right to have healthy lungs is misguided and factually without basis.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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AirBrian said:
There are few things in life that are worse than the smell of smoke coming through the car vents (especially at stop lights). And by the time you smell it, you can’t change the air control to recycle from inside the car, so you’re stuck either way inhaling that crap.

I think I might have to support this law.
that will only help if there are kids in the offending car so your odds of this helping you are kind of slim.
 

Outcast2004

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Minotauro said:
Take a look at the following essay and read over some of the links contained within...

http://www.houseofdiabolique.com/archives/smoking012603.html

There are a lot of myths in the public consciousness about second-hand smoke. If you don't like the smell of smoke, that's fine. Self-righteous blather about your right to have healthy lungs is misguided and factually without basis.
How can you dispute the toxins, poisons and other chemical contained within unfiltered cigarette smoke?

It's unhealthy period. It's insulting that you'd even defend it!

Nothing self-righteous about wanting my health to remain intact. Sorry if you're too inconsiderate to take it out side and away fromt he rest of us wth the willpower to not engage in that pointless habit anyway.

you want links?

Here you go
http://www.medicalmoment.org/_content/risks/mar04/210276.asp

http://atoz.iqhealth.com/Atoz/Lifestyles/SmokeOut/dangers.html

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=39858

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/CC/00023.html

http://quitsmoking.about.com/od/secondhandsmoke/

I could go all day with this. The fact you'd even TRY to spin something like this is just insane.

Please, if me being concious about my health and whats going into my body is "sefl righteous", then fine so be it.
 

cloudwalking

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There are a lot of myths in the public consciousness about second-hand smoke. If you don't like the smell of smoke, that's fine. Self-righteous blather about your right to have healthy lungs is misguided and factually without basis.
Ugh... my mom smoked in the house, the car, wherever she could with my sister and I in close proximity for probably 17 years (and she still smokes). I've breathed in so much second-hand smoke I hardly notice the stuff anymore.

But because of it, I deveolped breathing problems... It's pretty much impossible for me to play sports, run, ride a bike, for an extended period of time. I even had surgery to try and fix it but it didn't do anything.

I recently moved out of my parents' house and it's like I can actually SMELL things again... at home, all I can smell is smoke now. On clothes I packed but haven't worn yet, they absolutely reek to me now, and no one even ever smoked in my room.

It really does fuck with the non-smokers. I think it's disgusting.
 

Teflar

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Second hand smoke is not what this is about. We get you don't like our smoke in your face, that's why we have laws about smoking in public places.

What's wrong with this law is that it is trying to tell me what I can or can not do in my own space. You don't like my smoke coming out of my car at a stop light? Tough, I don't like your music blasting, but I'm not going to tell you that you can't play whatever music it is you want. Hell, if I even tried you'd laugh in my face for trying to tell you how to make your private space a comfortable environment.

No one is blowing smoke in your face while they are in a separate car from you. At worst it is a minor inconvienice on par with the exhaust each and every one of our cars puts out. Life sometimes has minor annoyances, I'm sure you've noticed.

Again: This law WILL NOT outlaw smoking in your car UNLESS CHILDREN ARE PRESENT. For all of you saluting this as a way to keep us horrible disgusting smokers from lighting up, it won't happen. But it does take us one step closer to it happening, which I guess you could be happy about. It also takes us a step closer to me being able to complain about your life choices, though, so be careful what you wish for.
 

darscot

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Basically I smoked for a lot of years and on e of the the factors that helped me quit was the stricter laws. Once you couldn't smoke in a public place it really helped. So I am all for it I wish they would just ban it right now and grandfather it in.
 
Jun 9, 2004
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Meh - Section 8 hasn't been unleashed in full force on Parma Heights, so it's still not a shithole like my neighborhood. :p

I'd rather see a ban on cell phones while vehicles are in use. I have no problem if you want to kill yourself with tobacco. :D
 

Minotauro

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Jun 8, 2004
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Outcast2004 said:
How can you dispute the toxins, poisons and other chemical contained within unfiltered cigarette smoke?

It's unhealthy period. It's insulting that you'd even defend it!

Nothing self-righteous about wanting my health to remain intact. Sorry if you're too inconsiderate to take it out side and away fromt he rest of us wth the willpower to not engage in that pointless habit anyway.

you want links?

Here you go
http://www.medicalmoment.org/_content/risks/mar04/210276.asp

http://atoz.iqhealth.com/Atoz/Lifestyles/SmokeOut/dangers.html

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=39858

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/CC/00023.html

http://quitsmoking.about.com/od/secondhandsmoke/

I could go all day with this. The fact you'd even TRY to spin something like this is just insane.

Please, if me being concious about my health and whats going into my body is "sefl righteous", then fine so be it.
Do any of those links refer to specific studies? I really don't have time to go through each looking for references. Then again, I doubt you did either. In fact, you probably just plugged "second hand smoking risks" into Google and posted the first few links you found. Regardless, the essay I posted refutes the two major studies that are generally cited by anti-smoking pundits when making their arguments. If any additional studies are available, I'd like to see them.

You should really try to get your hands on the SHS episode of Penn and Teller's show, Bullshit. I found it quite enlightening.

cloudwalking said:
Ugh... my mom smoked in the house, the car, wherever she could with my sister and I in close proximity for probably 17 years (and she still smokes). I've breathed in so much second-hand smoke I hardly notice the stuff anymore.

But because of it, I deveolped breathing problems... It's pretty much impossible for me to play sports, run, ride a bike, for an extended period of time. I even had surgery to try and fix it but it didn't do anything.

I recently moved out of my parents' house and it's like I can actually SMELL things again... at home, all I can smell is smoke now. On clothes I packed but haven't worn yet, they absolutely reek to me now, and no one even ever smoked in my room.

It really does fuck with the non-smokers. I think it's disgusting.
Both of my parents smoked around me throughout my entire life and I'm perfectly fine. It goes both ways. Also, you mentioned your sister...did she develop the same problems you did?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying second-hand smoke is good for you or anything. I'm just saying that it's not nearly as bad as a lot of people want you to think it is.
 

Outcast2004

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The Take Out Bandit said:
Meh - Section 8 hasn't been unleashed in full force on Parma Heights, so it's still not a shithole like my neighborhood. :p

I'd rather see a ban on cell phones while vehicles are in use. I have no problem if you want to kill yourself with tobacco. :D
As a fellow Ohioan I fully support this. GET OFF YOUR DAMN CELL PHONES!

I deal with enough idiot drivers on I-76 everyday that ARENT on Cellphones. I don't want someone swerving back and forth because they're more in tune with the conversation they are having than DRIVING!


EDIT;
Mino, it's REALLY common sense. The smoke that SMOKERS injest is filtered by up to 60%. The rest of us? We get the full brunt.

My parent s both smoked and it has caused a few problems with me. Namely sinus issues and borderline asthma. My wife who's father CHAIN SMOKES has bad asthma. Her little brothers have breathing problems as well, you can hear it in their voices even.

It's proven that cigarette smoking (first or second hand) is a major cause of many forms of cancer. How can you refute this?
 

Minotauro

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Also, for the record, I don't smoke. I just find the constant garbage that smokers have to put up with maddening. I mean, everyone has vices...it just seems like smokers are the only group who it's socially acceptable to insult and harrass about their habits.
 

-=DoAvl=-

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Jun 10, 2004
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why smoke for huh?!?


WHY>>??!??!?!



DOUSHITE?!?!?!?!



no seriously. why? there are way better ways to do shit to your body. Like playing WoW, or studying for an exam!


i don't mind ppl who breathe in crap for the sake of being cool, but please do it in a place that's far, far away from the women and the children... OH WON'T YOU PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?


don't mind me, i'm just spouting random shit. ;)
 

Outcast2004

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Minotauro said:
Also, for the record, I don't smoke. I just find the constant garbage that smokers have to put up with maddening. I mean, everyone has vices...it just seems like smokers are the only group who it's socially acceptable to insult and harrass about their habits.
Could it be because their vice directly affects those around them?

Hmmmm... call it hunch.


Here's more; from www.CANCER.org
Why Is It a Problem?

The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has classified secondhand smoke as a Group A carcinogen, which means that there is sufficient evidence that it causes cancer in humans. Environmental tobacco smoke has also been classified as a "known human carcinogen" by the US National Toxicology Program.

Secondhand tobacco smoke contains over 4,000 chemical compounds. More than 60 of these are known or suspected to cause cancer.

Secondhand smoke can be harmful in many ways. In the United States alone, each year it is responsible for:

An estimated 35,000 to 40,000 deaths from heart disease in people who are not current smokers
About 3,000 lung cancer deaths in nonsmoking adults
Other respiratory problems in nonsmokers, including coughing, phlegm, chest discomfort, and reduced lung function
150,000 to 300,000 lower respiratory tract infections (such as pneumonia and bronchitis) in children younger than 18 months of age, which result in 7,500 to 15,000 hospitalizations
Increases in the number and severity of asthma attacks in about 200,000 to 1 million asthmatic children
The 1986 US Surgeon General's report on the health consequences of involuntary smoking reached 3 important conclusions about secondhand smoke:

Involuntary smoking causes disease, including lung cancer, in healthy nonsmokers.
When compared with the children of nonsmoking parents, children of parents who smoke have more frequent respiratory infections, more respiratory symptoms, and slower development of lung function as the lung matures.
Separating smokers and nonsmokers within the same air space may reduce, but does not eliminate, the exposure of nonsmokers to secondhand smoke.


Spin that.
 

Willco

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Jun 9, 2004
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I think smoking is disgusting and it's a habit I certainly don't support. And there's so much medical documentation of its harmful effects that you'd have to be a fool to smoke. That said, we're getting closer and closer to making it illegal and that worries me, because it sets a dangerous precedent.

Outcast2004 said:
Could it be because their vice directly affects those around them?

Hmmmm... call it hunch.
This is such a bunch of horse shit.

While second hand smoke is legit and smoking can severely irritate those who are sensitive due to respiratory problems, evidence on second hand smoke and its effects on average people is far from conclusive. And most of these "facts" that are spun by anti-smoking people are from data the an American Cancer Society study back in the late 90s that has come under scrutiny by independent studies in recent years.

There are so many other things that are dangerous for people and everything, that to vilify smokers is just ignorant.
 

cloudwalking

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Minotauro said:
Both of my parents smoked around me throughout my entire life and I'm perfectly fine. It goes both ways. Also, you mentioned your sister...did she develop the same problems you did?
Yeah, you're right that it goes both ways.

My sister didn't have any of the same problems. She actually picked up smoking, herself, so all that really happened to her is she looks tired all the time and became even more of a short fuse. :lol I don't think picking up smoking at 14 is a good idea. She's 16 and already has wrinkles.
 

demon

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Jun 8, 2004
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Minotauro said:
Also, for the record, I don't smoke. I just find the constant garbage that smokers have to put up with maddening. I mean, everyone has vices...it just seems like smokers are the only group who it's socially acceptable to insult and harrass about their habits.
Gimme a break. Smoking is detrimental to your health, can be dangerous in second-hand form over a period of time, and can be incredibly obnoxious when having to deal with outside your own private space under some circumstances (thank god for the regulations already in place). If it were anything else as loathsome to endure in public, you can bet your ass it wouldn't be allowed and very few people would have a problem with that. But no, smoking's already popular........so it's okay!

That said, we're getting closer and closer to making it illegal and that worries me, because it sets a dangerous precedent.
The motives behind these smoking regulations, at least on the surface, seem to be motivated more by the second-hand effects of it in public and not the same (bullshit) reasons marijuana is illegal. I just hope it stays that way.
 

Minotauro

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Outcast2004 said:
It's proven that cigarette smoking (first or second hand) is a major cause of many forms of cancer. How can you refute this?
It absolutely is not proven. That's just what I'm saying. Show me a scientific study that has shown conclusively that SHS can significantly increase the chance of someone getting cancer. As far as I know, there are two studies that are constantly cited...each has been refuted. I'm willing to be proved wrong but I honestly think this is a case of people just taking for granted that the media and anti-smoking groups are quoting accurate statistics.

I have no argument with your contention that first hand smoking causes cancer.

Outcast2004 said:
Could it be because their vice directly affects those around them?

Hmmmm... call it hunch.
Well, that's exactly what we're arguing now, isn't it. Also, for the record, I still see smokers catch all kinds of flack even if they extend people the courtesy of going outside.

Outcast2004 said:
Here's more; from www.CANCER.org
Why Is It a Problem?

The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has classified secondhand smoke as a Group A carcinogen, which means that there is sufficient evidence that it causes cancer in humans. Environmental tobacco smoke has also been classified as a "known human carcinogen" by the US National Toxicology Program.
The EPA study is the exact one that's been refuted. Did you even look at the link I posted? Here are two specific ones...

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg16n3c.html
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/320/7232/417

Outcast2004 said:
Spin that.
I'm not trying to "spin" anything. Goddammit, you're fucking irritating. I'm trying to be reasonable about second-hand smoke and it's risks. I have no personal need to defend smokers aside from the desire for accuracy. If you have specific studies that have been produced, please post them. Like I said, I'm willing to be proven wrong.
 

Outcast2004

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You know the paper I work for ran a story about how Summit County is trying to ban smoking in public places COUNTY WIDE.

The only opposition is from the restaurant and bar owners. And even that is due to the "possible" loss of buisness. Even though in some cases business in restaurants went UP when they went strictly "clean air".

I support this as well though.
 

Minotauro

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demon said:
Gimme a break. Smoking is detrimental to your health, can be dangerous in second-hand form over a period of time, and can be incredibly obnoxious when having to deal with outside your own private space under some circumstances (thank god for the regulations already in place). If it were anything else as loathsome to endure in public, you can bet your ass it wouldn't be allowed and very few people would have a problem with that. But no, smoking's already popular........so it's okay!
Shit, I'd rather be around a smoker who's acknowledging those around him than some oblivious asshole chattering into his cellphone. At the same time, I wouldn't dream of publicly maligning the cellphone guy for it.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Jun 9, 2004
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I cannot believe Minotauro is coming under mob attack because he has the gall to challenge what many have blindly accepted as fact, without reading up on recent studies and inquiries that scrutinize original data.

There is something to second hand smoke. It's real. It's not the super deadly, evil killer that is created by malicious smokers who are hell bent on poisioning the world's population.

Outcast2004 said:
You know the paper I work for ran a story about how Summit County is trying to ban smoking in public places COUNTY WIDE.

The only opposition is from the restaurant and bar owners. And even that is due to the "possible" loss of buisness. Even though in some cases business in restaurants went UP when they went strictly "clean air".

I support this as well though.
That's not true. From counties, such as one I used to live in, pretty much all data has shown that business has gone down drastically in bars and clubs following the ban on smoking. And much of the business goes to nearby areas, driving smokers to spend money in counties other than their own. Only well after a ban, has some data supported an increase in business compared to the lack thereof following the ban.
 

Minotauro

Finds Purchase on Dog Nutz
Jun 8, 2004
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Outcast2004 said:
You know the paper I work for ran a story about how Summit County is trying to ban smoking in public places COUNTY WIDE.

The only opposition is from the restaurant and bar owners. And even that is due to the "possible" loss of buisness. Even though in some cases business in restaurants went UP when they went strictly "clean air".

I support this as well though.
The original essay I linked to referred to this type of situation explicitly. Did you read it?

I guess it's not that big of a deal...Like I said, I don't smoke, I just think smokers are often treated unfairly. I know I'm fighting a losing battle here. The forces that are trying to stop smoking are strong and I'm sure they'll eventually succeed. Either way, I'm basically done arguing about this because no progress is ever made and it's getting quite tedious.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
May 30, 2004
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I can accept it pretty willingly after being hospitalized as a child because of long-term second hand smoke inhalation. FUCK smokers spewing that shit around their children. Like cloudwalking I had breathing problems, and they lasted for nearly a decade after the smoke stopped.
 
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