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Loki |OT| Time Crimes

sol_bad

Member
Sure but don't you think answers to those questions should at least alluded to by now because now since the rules under which the TVA operate in is still vague and that makes it harder to have stakes IMO.

Child Sylvie escaping by stomping on a TVA agent foot raises questions of how powerful and competent the TVA actually is.

Nope.
I don't need every tiny little thing explained to me. And yeah, Sylvie escaped pretty easily, probably because Renslayer wasn't expecting a kid to try and escape.
Knowing that the TVA have existed for thousands of years is enough information to understand that the TVA are generally very competent.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
How is it a disservice?

Loki is the hero. This is HIS show. The audience is supposed to like him.
Remember, he died a hero in Infinity War
This is 2012 Loki who hadn't had his heart softened by the events of Thor 2 and was subjugating people and was complicit in the invasion of New York.

I was under the impression that people liked Loki as a villain in Avengers.
 
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Ulysses 31

Member
Nope.
I don't need every tiny little thing explained to me. And yeah, Sylvie escaped pretty easily, probably because Renslayer wasn't expecting a kid to try and escape.
Knowing that the TVA have existed for thousands of years is enough information to understand that the TVA are generally very competent.
Loki being so weakened is not a tiny thing though.

Things that the plot hinges on eventually should be made clear enough.
 

AJUMP23

Gold Member
The major bad guy set piece room was distracting because I think they were using the same tech they use in Mandalorian for their scenes that use the big screen to make a set. It just looked like the guy was sitting in front of a video projector. I found it distracting and the background looked flat.
You could tell when the camera pan when from film to cg.
 

DeafTourette

Older than air but younger than the foundations of the earth
This is 2012 Loki who hadn't had his heart softened by the events of Thor 2 and was subjugating people and was complicit in the invasion of New York.

I was under the impression that people liked Loki as a villain in Avengers.

The whole first season of this series has been about change and free will. The literal last episode before this was all about this! The other Loki variants were lamenting about how every time they try to do better, the rug gets pulled out from under them. From the first episode, Loki is on a journey to change into who he eventually becomes in the finale: the superior Loki. He HAS changed! He's become the best version of himself because now he loves someone, loves himself (figuratively and literally) and wants the best for others. He has friends now ... Though Kang has now undone that in the end.

Good thing we're getting season 2!
 

longdi

Banned
how does kang get beaten in the comics?

im guessing this kang arc in mcu will end with FF in late 2023?

Sm later this year
Doc strange early 2022
Quantumania early 2023
Loki2 mid 2023
FF late 2023?
 
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DelireMan7

Member
I watched the 2 last episodes and... I loved this show !

I have the same joy I had when I watched pre "Endgame" MCU movies. I still like the MCU but so far it's not as good as before Endgame.
But damn ! Loki reignite my love for it.
Stunning visuals, bewitching soundtrack, a nice cast of characters (and I have to say I am in love with Sylvie, a true beauty) and a crazy comics story which probably shapes the future of the MCU's multiverse.

The ending is the kind of crazy shit I want from comics. I guess it will have huge implication for all the upcoming MCU's movie/serie.

My knowledge of comics is still limited so I am neither disappointed or excited by He who remains (which Kang will be a variant from if I understood correctly) but I like him. Guess we'll see him (or variants to be precise) in several MCU movies/series.

Can't wait for Season 2 !
 

Ulysses 31

Member
The whole first season of this series has been about change and free will. The literal last episode before this was all about this! The other Loki variants were lamenting about how every time they try to do better, the rug gets pulled out from under them. From the first episode, Loki is on a journey to change into who he eventually becomes in the finale: the superior Loki. He HAS changed! He's become the best version of himself because now he loves someone, loves himself (figuratively and literally) and wants the best for others. He has friends now ... Though Kang has now undone that in the end.

Good thing we're getting season 2!
Yes and according to the show everything up to that point was planned out which means no one had agency and free will, only the illusion of it, all the movies and big character moments in the MCU might've well been a simulation just running its course. The show muddies it's own story telling and accomplishments with this predeterminism. Did Loki really had a change of heart or is he just an NPC going through the motions of He Who Remains laid out for him?

It will be interesting what season 2 does indeed.
 

Liljagare

Member
So good. Makes me a bit sad though, looking at the show, they could totally have gone Maximum Carnage with Venom and Carnage instead of the softie movies we got.
 

FunkMiller

Member
The X-Men are going to exist in one of the multiverse worlds, of course. That’s how they are going to do it.


Aaaaaargh!

I can’t tell you how frustrating it is as a lifelong DC fan that Marvel are going to do the multiverse first… and that by the time the collection of brain dead spunk monkeys at WB do the DC equivalent, everyone will think it’s a poor rip off, even though the DC multiverse concept is far better and was done first.

angry tom hardy GIF by Venom Movie
 
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I think the show already showed how this Arc ends, Slyvie uses goliath to beat Kang's in the final movie. After Loki gets control of the TVA in season 2
 
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sol_bad

Member
The X-Men are going to exist in one of the multiverse worlds, of course. That’s how they are going to do it.


Aaaaaargh!

I can’t tell you how frustrating it is as a lifelong DC fan that Marvel are going to do the multiverse first… and that by the time the collection of brain dead spunk monkeys at WB do the DC equivalent, everyone will think it’s a poor rip off, even though the DC multiverse concept is far better and was done first.

angry tom hardy GIF by Venom Movie

Nah, multiverse not needed for mutants. They'll have been living amongst humans for decades. But the majority mutant population started appearing just before Infinity War, but it was mostly teenagers. Jump to after Endgame and those mutants are now adults. X-Men movies could be placed in the 5 year gap.
 

FunkMiller

Member
Nah, multiverse not needed for mutants. They'll have been living amongst humans for decades. But the majority mutant population started appearing just before Infinity War, but it was mostly teenagers. Jump to after Endgame and those mutants are now adults. X-Men movies could be placed in the 5 year gap.

Meh. I kinda hate the idea that mutants have been in the background during the MCU going completely unnoticed. It sounds as dumb as The Eternals sitting around like lazy bastards, doing nothing while Thanos tries to destroy Earth. And how on earth do you do Wolverine, if he’s a teenager around IW?
 

ManaByte

Member
Meh. I kinda hate the idea that mutants have been in the background during the MCU going completely unnoticed. It sounds as dumb as The Eternals sitting around like lazy bastards, doing nothing while Thanos tries to destroy Earth. And how on earth do you do Wolverine, if he’s a teenager around IW?
Wolverine's been in Madripoor as Patch. The rest of the big mutants are living on Krakoa.
 

DelireMan7

Member
Meh. I kinda hate the idea that mutants have been in the background during the MCU going completely unnoticed. It sounds as dumb as The Eternals sitting around like lazy bastards, doing nothing while Thanos tries to destroy Earth. And how on earth do you do Wolverine, if he’s a teenager around IW?

problem is mutants dont fit at all in this timeline, you cant have magneto or omega red or any character that somehow references back to WWII

Exactly. Better to let them exist in their own universe to start with, and blend them in. Otherwise you lose so much history and characterisation. I have zero interest in young adult mutants 🤮

I am with you. I don't see how a "Mutants were existing since the beginning of MCU" would work. Any explanation would sound lame to me I think.
They have to come from another timeline/reality or other crazy stuff.
On the side, I am in the middle of the Dawn of X comics, and I really hope it will be an inspiration for the movies. I'd like to see Krakoa's stunning visual and the more "aggressive" approach by the mutants in their place on the society is quite refreshing.

I am also curious about the Eternals explanation, I haven't watch any info on the movie to keep surprises maybe it was already explained.
 

DelireMan7

Member
Unless they make Magneto the victim of a different genocide.
They could definitely change some origins. Might be an heresy for some but I don't mind it.

The problem with X-men is that they are very iconic and it would be a great risk to change too much.
I could see some stuff like "the 3 Snaps release a huge amount of energy that activated/created the gene X" leading to a sudden appearance of mutants. Actually that could be a nice setting (the sudden appearance of mutants creating fear of them... classic X-men stuff).
The problem with that is there is no Charles Xavier, Wolverine, Magneto and others experienced mutants. They could go for an origin story with that but I don't think it's what people want. They want a fully fledged X-men team with Wolverine, Cyclops, Charles etc...

I don't see a decent way to introduce the mutants in the current timeline/reality without having stuff like "these very iconic and powerful mutants were hiding all along"
 

StormCell

Member
The problem with the multiverse is eventually you have to have one that is canon. Otherwise, you have no canon at all, and with that you really have no story to tell because all possible stories are the story, and the fictional history absolutely has no value.

Multiverses are fun, but eventually you just have a ton of rubbish. It's like junk food. "But literally anything could happen..." but did it? Eventually, it would be nice to do a small bit of retcon on the MCU because I was also wondering while all these non-mutant super heroes were battling big bad Thanos just where the heck a lot of other iconic Marvel characters were at. Additionally, it would finally give us a chance to salvage Spider-man and undo his legacy of being someone's errand/whipping boy and let him truly be himself again.
 
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sol_bad

Member
Meh. I kinda hate the idea that mutants have been in the background during the MCU going completely unnoticed. It sounds as dumb as The Eternals sitting around like lazy bastards, doing nothing while Thanos tries to destroy Earth. And how on earth do you do Wolverine, if he’s a teenager around IW?

I said majority of mutants are teenagers. Some have been around for longer, Wolverine and Apocalypse have been around for a very long time. Even the first X-Men movie by Fox starts with a meeting that talks about mutants in hiding and that they are real and that they exist. Basically suggesting that mutant sittings are becoming more frequent.
You could place the first X-Men film into the MCU and it would function fine. Having the majority of mutants as teenagers is a good excuse for them not being around during Infinity War and Endgame, too young and inexperienced to help.

Realistically though, in Infinity War there is only the initial attack in New York which is a short time frame, not enough time for mutants to arrive. Then there is Wakanda at the end, mutants wouldn't be there because they done know about Vision or the stones.
Then in Endgame, it's literally just the last battle at the end at Avengers HQ, again a short time frame and not enough time for any mutants to arrive.

As for Eternals, no one knows why they haven't interfered and it's silly to judge that film based on a teaser. My understanding of them is that they are gods and think themselves above humans and don't care for them. Not only that, they also have their memories wiped and so don't know that they are "eternals".

I don't see what introducing mutants by the multiverse brings to the table.
Do they stay in their own alternate reality? If so, then they aren't really being introduced into the MCU it's a separate reality. It's kind of pointless not having them interact with other MCU characters.
Or are you saying they are brought to the MCU reality from their alternate reality? If so, how many mutants are meant to travel to the main MCU reality? There are hundreds of mutant characters in the comics. Are they meant to use the multiverse gimmick every time they want to introduce a new character?
 

Ulysses 31

Member
The problem with the multiverse is eventually you have to have one that is canon. Otherwise, you have no canon at all, and with that you really have no story to tell because all possible stories are the story, and the fictional history absolutely has no value.

Multiverses are fun, but eventually you just have a ton of rubbish. It's like junk food. "But literally anything could happen..." but did it? Eventually, it would be nice to do a small bit of retcon on the MCU because I was also wondering while all these non-mutant super heroes were battling big bad Thanos just where the heck a lot of other iconic Marvel characters were at. Additionally, it would finally give us a chance to salvage Spider-man and undo his legacy of being someone's errand/whipping boy and let him truly be himself again.
They need to establish the


Because without those it's hard to get invested when big changes can happen on a dime.
 

DelireMan7

Member
I don't see what introducing mutants by the multiverse brings to the table.
Do they stay in their own alternate reality? If so, then they aren't really being introduced into the MCU it's a separate reality. It's kind of pointless not having them interact with other MCU characters.
Or are you saying they are brought to the MCU reality from their alternate reality? If so, how many mutants are meant to travel to the main MCU reality? There are hundreds of mutant characters in the comics. Are they meant to use the multiverse gimmick every time they want to introduce a new character?
Having them from another reality would allow to have fully fledge mutants and team allowing many powerful and experienced mutants to be directly introduced.
They could start in their reality and then move to the "main one" (but I don't think it's needed to have a main one) for whatever reason (their world is close to destruction in their reality, the realities are merging into one, ....).


Having the majority of mutants as teenagers is a good excuse for them not being around during Infinity War and Endgame, too young and inexperienced to help.
I don't get why majority of the mutants would be teenage ? What would be the explanation ?
 

sol_bad

Member
Having them from another reality would allow to have fully fledge mutants and team allowing many powerful and experienced mutants to be directly introduced.
They could start in their reality and then move to the "main one" (but I don't think it's needed to have a main one) for whatever reason (their world is close to destruction in their reality, the realities are merging into one, ....).



I don't get why majority of the mutants would be teenage ? What would be the explanation ?

If you involve a world destruction event, you are stuck with whatever mutants are brought across. How do you introduce new mutants? How do they grow as a population? That's the thing with mutants, the fear that anyone could be one, could be born with the X gene. If you bring mutants across from another reality you lose that element. The "MCU" population won't be susceptible to the X gene and it'll be another 14-16 years until the mutants babies start getting powers.

The reason for majority of mutants being teenagers in my idea is because it's a new phenomenon that's unexplainable and that's what makes mutants scary, the new unpredictable nature of it all. Who will be a mutant and what power will they have. And I say this phenomenon starts happening a year or two (teenagers who are 15-17 years old) before Infinity War in the timeline because you can set movies after Endgame where characters are 22-25 years old and are a fully fledged team.
You can of course have mutants who are in their 30s to 60s but they fewer and have been hiding that they are mutants. When this massive increase of new young mutants start to occur, the older "evil" mutants come out of hiding. You can do a lot of stuff with the mutants during the 5 year gap as the MCU hasn't explored that time frame. Not only is half the population gone and the economy is going to shit, now they have these fucking mutants to deal with, another pressure.
Just like the 60s comic, mutants just start appearing and they hide that they are mutants. There's no lengthy origin story, just more and more mutants as time goes on.
 

bitbydeath

Member
Meh. I kinda hate the idea that mutants have been in the background during the MCU going completely unnoticed. It sounds as dumb as The Eternals sitting around like lazy bastards, doing nothing while Thanos tries to destroy Earth. And how on earth do you do Wolverine, if he’s a teenager around IW?
I agree, I’m hoping we get multi-verse mergers at some point. That’d be a great way to introduce them and start the war against mutants at the same time.
 

bitbydeath

Member
How do you introduce new mutants? How do they grow as a population? That's the thing with mutants, the fear that anyone could be one, could be born with the X gene. If you bring mutants across from another reality you lose that element.
I think a multi-verse merger would work. They just turn up and blend in with society so anyone could be one. Discovering they exist causes panic which escalates into trying to round them all up.

Could either switch people out or even just dump them all in, either way would work.
 
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ManaByte

Member
I agree, I’m hoping we get multi-verse mergers at some point. That’d be a great way to introduce them and start the war against mutants at the same time.

You'll have Mutants in the MCU LONG before then.

Hell there was a Mutant in Black Widow (Ursa Major).
 

bitbydeath

Member
You'll have Mutants in the MCU LONG before then.

Hell there was a Mutant in Black Widow (Ursa Major).
I just read

he doesn’t use his mutant powers in the movie.

So this could be before he gets switched out with his multi-verse x-gene counterpart.
 

DelireMan7

Member
You'll have Mutants in the MCU LONG before then.

Hell there was a Mutant in Black Widow (Ursa Major).
I would take the Ursa Major appearence with a grain of salt because :
  • He appears few seconds
  • Doesn't show any ability
  • Only the actor claims he's a mutant.
  • It's not the first "mutant" that appears in the MCU. Wanda and Quicksilver are in the MCU but ended up not being mutant in it.
Edit : but now that I think about it, their power were given by an infinity stone (in Loki's scepter). Their power could be caused by a mutation due to the stone. So maybe the origin of the mutants could he due to the successive Snap.
 
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ManaByte

Member
I would take the Ursa Major appearence with a grain of salt because :
  • He appears few seconds
  • Doesn't show any ability
  • Only the actor claims he's a mutant.
  • It's not the first "mutant" that appears in the MCU. Wanda and Quicksilver are in the MCU but ended up not being mutant in it.
Alexi calls him Ursa and he's listed in the credits as Ursa.

Also Wanda isn't even a Mutant in the comics. In Hickman's X-Men the Mutants HATE her and call her the Great Pretender.
 
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bitbydeath

Member

Will spoiler tag.
Ursa appears in a short scene in Black Widow, arm wrestling David Harbour's Red Guardian. While he doesn't take on the anthropomorphic bear form he can in the comics, Red Guardian does call him a "big bear" as he walks away
In short, no powers are displayed so he may not be an actual mutant yet.
 

sol_bad

Member
Alexi calls him Ursa and he's listed in the credits as Ursa.

Also Wanda isn't even a Mutant in the comics. In Hickman's X-Men the Mutants HATE her and call her the Great Pretender.

Just because he is called Ursa in the MCU doesn't automatically make him a mutant in the MCU. He is just a throw away character at this stage.
 

ManaByte

Member
Just because he is called Ursa in the MCU doesn't automatically make him a mutant in the MCU. He is just a throw away character at this stage.

Alexi also called him Big Bear. It's a clear Easter Egg for that character because Marvel's allowed to do that now. Just like they're allowed to go to Madripoor and the Princess bar.
 
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sol_bad

Member
Alexi also called him Big Bear. It's a clear Easter Egg for that character because Marvel's allowed to do that now. Just like they're allowed to go to Madripoor and the Princess bar.

Of course, but it doesn't mean he is a mutant in the MCU. Like you said, he is an easter egg.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Well, this was for sure the best MCU show so far, really enjoyed it! WandaVision was pretty great too, but this was another step up. Felt like a really good MCU movie split into 6 parts. Falcon is by far the worst of the three. I didn't exactly dislike it, but it was just a pretty generic action show with nothing all that interesting or memorable going on.
 
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Kenpachii

Gold Member
Kinda predictable episode the last one, we knew they would find somebody over there.

So i guess we going to see some time war in the next season. Also i wonder whos controlled that clock and where that judge lady is going. I could see that she is going to be the runner up for taking over the time line.
 
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DeafTourette

Older than air but younger than the foundations of the earth
Kinda predictable episode the last one, we knew they would find somebody over there.

So i guess we going to see some time war in the next season. Also i wonder whos controlled that clock and where that judge lady is going. I could see that she is going to be the runner up for taking over the time line.

Ummm... Jonathan Majors is Kang the Conqueror. His publicly known next appearance is Ant-Man and the Wasp: QuantumMania. Feige said Loki is the most important show to phase 4 (yes the movies too) and that it opens up the multiverse in the movies AND the shows.
 
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Kenpachii

Gold Member
Ummm... Jonathan Majors is Kang the Conqueror. His publicly known next appearance is Ant-Man and the Wasp: QuantumMania. Feige said Loki is the most important show to phase 4 (yes the movies too) and that it opens up the multiverse in the movies AND the shows.

I have no clue what any of that means. i just see loki from thor and a nice idea for a series.
 
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