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LTTP: The Wonderful 101 - This utterly incredible game... isn't very good

Cyd0nia

Banned
Jun 28, 2014
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I agree with the criticism that it doesn't lead you into understanding the mechanics well enough and that its visually very hard to grasp. However, there are people who love that. They hate hand holding, and they love complexity. It does feel like it was made in very much an old school vein, seeing something like Mega Man 2 in here among the arguments doesn't surprise me at all. W101 is a lot more forgiving than a game of MM2's ilk though, and it can be learned. I do believe it was either designed in an uncompromising fashion, to take time and effort to master, or there wasn't enough time to add more accessible options and a focus-tested learning curve. Once again, there are people who will love that.

One things for sure, if you can rise above the complaints that OP has and get deep into the game, you will be rewarded by action packed craziness that is almost unparalleled.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
DMC shaped an entire genre and generation of action games so his comment there seems more to me like he wasn't sure about the gamble. His design mentality hasn't changed much at all since DMC and Bayonetta, and TW101 continues to build upon that. His comment here seems to have more to do with Scalebound being a different kind of game.
.

Then why compare it to DMC? I mean he's made Okami which is a pretty popular action adventure game.

I think Scalebound will definitely be an action game like the others they've made at PG.Just with it's own mechanics like everything else they've done. They're just trying to communicate that they want people who don't like how difficult those games usually are to play it as well.

.It's certainly not a response to W101 as Kamiya has never been the type to alter his vision of what hte game should be based off of popular opinion.

What are you talking about? Wonderful 101 itself is a game that had its original dark comic visual style completely overhauled into its current form because of how unpopular it was originally in Japan with Viewtiful Joe.


The reputation they have, as a studio, is that they make the best games on the market that don't hold your hand and take a lot of skill and patience to play well.

Right. That's their reputation while they're actually making games that really anyone can complete even without understanding the game systems at work fully. Bayonetta, Vanquish, Rising and Anarchy Reigns can be completed by anyone. They bring the HARDCORE experience to content tourists while offering alot of content and depth for dedicated players beyond that.

101 is the exception, not the rule. It's their only game that has really been this divisive even among enthusiasts and I don't think it's any accident that the reviews of the game reflect as much in comparison to the other games
 

Gsnap

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Jun 9, 2013
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It's not about the game. It's about the reaction. Literally the first post is "git gud" and the next few are virtual high-fives because "he sure told him". OP posted a fairly in-depth response as to WHY he didn't like it. He didn't just say it sucked and THAT's what he got?

Yeah, if the fanbase is SO happy being niche then it should get niche sales.

And then once you get past the early reaction posts (which every single thread on gaf is guilty of) you get into the actual discussion. You know, just like every other thread.
 

Griss

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Sep 26, 2013
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To be fair, he lead with "This game is fucking awful".

Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. I lead with how much I liked so much about the game. That's the entire first paragraph. Go back and check. In the title I say 'not very good'. Then I use the word terrible for effect before rolling back to 'mediocre'.

You seem emotionally offended, or you would be able to understand what I'd read, or not feel the need to misrepresent it.
 

atr0cious

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Jan 15, 2014
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Anyway, I kept a bit of a running diary of my last hour playing the game so that people could see how I got on. Here it is:

Operation 005-B:
Inside a lava temple on the gamepad. Can’t see shit, captain. This is terrible. Moving the gamepad to look around is horrible and isn’t working. I keep getting the camera stuck against a wall. I clearly need to use bomb to slow the fire down but it works so inconsistently. No space to draw in here, can't see anyway. This is a terrible piece of design on every level. This isn’t working. The single worst use of the gamepad I'm yet to encounter in a game.

Fighting two guys on a see-saw bridge. It’s just impossible to see where I am in comparison to them from this camera angle with the swaying bridge. The enemies are easy, but I fall off again and again. It’s impossible to enjoy this.

Cut-scene time. Story is still cute, visuals still great. I'm willing to play to see how this plays out, I really do love this game's style.

Platforming around a lava area while robot jumps causing lava waves - terrible. No sense of weight or placement in the platforming at all. Died 3 times from not being sure where I was exactly compared to the wave of lava. Hate these kind of sections.

Alright, finally, a normal combat section! A single large enemy appears, I combo the shit out of him, pure platinum all around after a series of consolation prizes on the last couple sections. When this game is just me vs one or two enemies on flat ground it really shines. I love the core mechanics and the combo systems are fantastic. This time I climb attacked to stun the enemy, sent out a blade and a hammer on their own, then became the fist to launch the enemy and kept him in the air with the gun. Looked like one of those Saur videos. 4 different items in about 3 seconds, he didn’t know what hit him. Tons of fun. Tons of fun. Please note - I do know the combat mechanics. The amount of people linking me to videos I've already watched or teaching me mechanics I already know at this stage is annoying.

Massive Cube Boss (Part 09) - Killed it perfectly again. Pure platinum. Loved this battle, easy as pie when you know what you're doing. The game is just about worth it for the standard battle alone, which really are unique and inspired.

Overall, though, this was a terrible level and so inconsistent. Displayed tons of stuff I dislike about the game. So many people who like the game handwave terrible gamepad sections or platforming sections and I'm not sure why - they materially affect my enjoyment of the game.

Operation 005-C
The boss was quite readable for once. Clear what you needed to do, not so much trial and error like the last few. Took him down without much difficulty.

Then Punch-out. Punch-out was brilliant. Exactly the kind of genre-break that the game needs. Pure quality, with depth to it. Most of the genre-switching had nowhere near this amount of polish to it. This one felt fully-featured, so it was a huge positive, and I loved it. Game also eased you into it before asking you to fight the boss. Good design!

Decent battle against the bad guy inside the robot, he went down surprisingly easy. Then genre-switching again while escaping the volcano. This part was lame. All flying sections appear to be lame. Again, the chapter could have finished on such a good note had he just left that final lame section off. Editor, where are you?

Has to be mentioned how stylish and amazing all of the action looked, though. Most other games would dole out the last 10 minutes of action across an entire game. Here it's something new every 5 seconds. I can't help but respect that. The game is a visual eyegasm at basically all times.

Operation 006-A
An ice level. Sounded like a nightmare but was less annoying than I thought slipping around. Most of the action was on level ground, which I appreciated. Some new enemies who were surprisingly easy. Won't go into as much detail but I liked this level a hell of a lot more than 005-B.

I'll continue on later.
I feel like I'm reading the captains log of a submarine diving into the Marianas Trench. Keep going...

Also, please go back to Missions 001 - 003 and see how you feel about them now that you have more a handle on your crowd.
 

Majmun

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Dec 15, 2005
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The game has great style but the actual gameplay is just terrible.

And spare me the "git gud" parts because Lair is probably a masterwork as well after you've mastered its awful controls.

Worst PG game to date.
 

roknin

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Jun 3, 2013
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So let me ask you this.

Why did you put the effort into learning this game?

...I answered this already.

Because I enjoyed it even when I didn't understand the game. Hell I'm still ASS at the game, even with what I've learned on my first playthrough, and I enjoyed the ever-loving hell out of it. It is satisfying as fuck once you get the mechanics down even at a basic level.

By the time I got to
008-A and 008-B, a lot of the encounters there that pissed me off early in the game - like the double Turtles, Tigers, and the Dragons - were made HARDER by this point, and I was essentially flying through them (except for the double Anko fight, I hate them still lol)
BECAUSE I ENJOYED THE GAME AND LEARNED. I got better at it.
 

NotLiquid

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Aug 30, 2012
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Then why compare it to DMC? I mean he's made Okami which is a pretty popular action adventure game.

Because DMC is the game he's most known for and it's the best parallel he can draw to show the differences in approach?
 

Gsnap

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Jun 9, 2013
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I am dashing at all times, I just feel like there aren't enough visual cues for me to figure out where my guy is. The little circle isn't enough. When I'm fighting the weapon tells me exactly where I am. When I'm platforming I really struggle.

No offense, but I don't think we can blame the game for this one. The game does give you enough visual cues. You just seem to have trouble seeing or understanding them. Somewhere in this thread you also said you have trouble with the platforming in 3D World I believe? Seems like you just have issues with navigating 3D space in certain contexts, where many other people don't. I don't feel like you can fault the game for that.
 

Mesoian

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Mar 23, 2012
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I think Scalebound will definitely be an action game like the others they've made at PG. They're just trying to communicate that they want people who don't like how difficult those games usually are to play it as well.

We'll see. As of right now, no one except the people at platinum know what Scalebound is. If I had to make a judgment call based on what we've seen, I'd say it's going to be a hunter style game, which are usually much slower and don't require as snappy reactions for general gameplay.

What are you talking about? Wonderful 101 itself is a game that had its original dark comic visual style completely overhauled into its current form because of how unpopular it was originally in Japan with Viewtiful Joe.

What are YOU talking about? W101 was original going to use all nintendo characters, but that idea was rejected.


Right. That's their reputation while they're actually making games that really anyone can complete even without understanding the game systems at work fully. Bayonetta, Vanquish, Rising and Anarchy Reigns can be completed by anyone. They bring the HARDCORE experience to content tourists while offering alot of content and depth for dedicated players beyond that.

101 is the exception, not the rule. It's their only game that has really been this divisive even among enthusiasts and I don't think it's any accident that the reviews of the game reflect as much in comparison to the other games

Again, I don't think that's true. Those games can be completed by anyone, on easy. I found vanquish to be very difficult on normal personally, and the same can be done here. But let's not get it twisted, all of these games, on normal, are hard. Platinum games have a history of making games that are inherently difficult, so much so that they add in multiple difficulty settings and control schemes for people who can't wrap their heads around the finer point of gameplay. When Bayo 1 was going around the trailer cycle, we all made jokes about the one button gameplay mode and hur hur "IT'S CUZ SHE'S NAKED AND YOU'LL NEED ONE HAND FOR OTHER THINGS", but that same mechanic, as well as the tap mechanic with the game pad is being heralded as a serious feature in Bayo 2. Platinum has always made it you can get through the game if you find normal mode too hard, W101 is no different with it's optional core pieces that essentially give you unlimited battery or make it so you're always getting supersized unite morphs regardless of how big you draw the shapes.

So I really don't understand how people can be so dismissive when at the end of the day, the core gameplay between all of those games are pretty much the same. All of those games have hard stop points that require you to stop and think about what you're actually doing from enemy to enemy, but for some reason, that's not acceptable in w101? It makes no sense to me.
 

Mesoian

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Mar 23, 2012
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Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. I lead with how much I liked so much about the game. That's the entire first paragraph. Go back and check. In the title I say 'not very good'. Then I use the word terrible for effect before rolling back to 'mediocre'.

You seem emotionally offended, or you would be able to understand what I'd read, or not feel the need to misrepresent it.

Keep in mind, i'm not attacking you, i'm explaining why half of the responses in this thread are little more than "git good son". You did use that line and when people see that stuff, they detach.

Trust me, I read your complaints and if I thought you were just being dismissive, I wouldn't have returned to this thread as many times as I have.
 

C.Olimar788

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Apr 7, 2013
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I agree that W101 definitely has some distinct problems with its learning curve - the turtle section you mentioned was pretty frustrating to me as well, and I still don't know exactly how best to kill the damn turtles, even after beating the game. Since many of the larger enemies take specific tactics to kill efficiently, the game letting you have more time killing them individually would have been very much appreciated.

And gosh yes at the characters being incredibly one-note - outside of Red and Blue, they're all so underdeveloped it hurts. The casual sexism was more than a little bothersome as well, but I was willing to overlook it - it was stereotypical as hell, but at least it wasn't really objectifying.

In any case, while I enjoyed W101, I can definitely see where stumbling blocks for me would have turned someone off from the game entirely - they almost turned me off from the game early on, as a matter of fact - they really REALLY should have given you the block and dodge immediately and given you more time to practice with them, that's for sure.

Despite all the hate you will undoubtedly get, you put together a good post that you do a good job of being critical without just blasting the game for stuff. So good post!
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
What are YOU talking about? W101 was original going to use all nintendo characters, but that idea was rejected.

Right. Then they resubmitted the idea as an original IP and it got approved

and they made a prototype with an artstyle similar to Joe's(That I personally like a bit more than what we got.)

http://twitpic.com/dbh22f



Nintendo told them to change it and it was reworked into the plastic toy concept we got in the final product
 

RurouniZel

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OP, you just nailed everything about Wonderful 101 that infuriates me. It's why to this day I have not finished it and likely never will. The game is simply to visually busy for me to ever get comfortable with the mechanics.
 

NotLiquid

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Aug 30, 2012
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the turtle section you mentioned was pretty frustrating to me as well, and I still don't know exactly how best to kill the damn turtles, even after beating the game.

Employ Guts when they stomp, swipe them with Unite Sword, attack the weak point with Unite Hammer.
 

SykoTech

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Right. Then they resubmitted the idea as an original IP and it got approved

and they made a prototype with an artstyle similar to Joe's(That I personally like a bit more than what we got.)

http://twitpic.com/dbh22f





Nintendo told them to change it and it was reworked into the plastic toy concept we got in the final product

Well that's depressing. This artstyle looks a million times better than what they went with.

I was wondering why they went with a poor man's VJ look rather than the real deal. Guess I know why now. :/
 

FlashbladeGAF

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Sep 11, 2006
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I am dashing at all times, I just feel like there aren't enough visual cues for me to figure out where my guy is. The little circle isn't enough. When I'm fighting the weapon tells me exactly where I am. When I'm platforming I really struggle.

If it's simple platforming only your main character needs to make the jump. No need to have them bunched up.

The game has great style but the actual gameplay is just terrible.

And spare me the "git gud" parts because Lair is probably a masterwork as well after you've mastered its awful controls.

Worst PG game to date.

The game mechanics are there, they are just hidden thru all of the flash and chaos going on on screen. Once you learn to take a breath and decode the chaos, it's symphony in motion.

I'll give you people having issue with the touch pad, but the control stick makes shapes as simple as throwing a fireball in street fighter. It may not be something you can do right off the bat, but with a little practice you can throw them without even thinking.

Lair, on the other hand. The dragon mechanics with combined with the camera...
Wait..., you brought up Lair...

nvm

Can't take seriously.
 

echthegreat

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Jan 24, 2006
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Well, OP I'm glad you're still going at it. This thread has been a fun read.
I have to say, though, I agree with your original post 100%. Or, I used to.

I bought this game digitally at the moment of its release, and I had two days off work to play it incessantly. These were the two most disappointing gaming days of my life for all the reasons you mentioned. The game was clunky, unreadable, and riddled with bugs and poor design. The story was fun, but every moment of every level was a chore. Sure, I like the combat when it worked, but the game was seemingly designed to break the combat.

The closest thing I could compare it to was the original Sonic the Hedgehog. The point of this game was to blast through the levels with flashy speed. Unfortunately, the designers took every possible opportunity to prevent you from doing this. Big ramp? Better put some spikes down. Blind jump? How about we put some enemies where you can't see them and can't react to their sudden appearance? In my opinion, the game consisted entirely of a couple good ideas wrapped up in an unfathomably bad game.

Unfortunately, this game really clicked for me after I got Wonder Black. Don't really know why or how, but there was a sudden moment of clarity when I threw a unite bomb into a multi-morph and wrecked some enemies. I had been cheesing my way through the game until this point, finishing it just so I could say that I had, but at this point, I decided to take my time and see the game for what it actually was, rather than what I wanted it to be.

Immediately, I went back and replayed all the previous levels, treating each enemy encounter as if it was my first. To my surprise, the game was really easy. I knew exactly what each enemy would do and how they would do it. Soon, I knew exactly how to trigger each formerly-frustrating sequence, and the "bugs" that I encountered on my first run were very easily avoided.

The Wonderful 101 is now one of my all-time favorite games. I still don't care for Space Harrier (and the consumable item system is a pointless inclusion), but none of my original complaints with the game have persisted. Once I stopped trying to play the game that I expected and started learning to play the game that I got, the entire experience was bliss. The sense of discovery and conquest is one that I rarely feel when playing modern games.

Have you seen Jacques Tati's Playtime (1967 film)? I don't recommend it to anyone, just as I don't recommend this game to anyone. It is the last film in a series of comedies, but it doesn't appear to be a comedy. When most people see it for the first time, they find it dull and inscrutable. It's never the film they expect it to be.

It is a comedy, though, and it's a fantastic film. It might not make sense the first time, or even the second, but if you stick with it, you will eventually come to appreciate its unparalleled originality. The same can be said of The Wonderful 101.

That being said, I still hate the Sonic games.
 

brandonh83

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Jun 26, 2005
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Don't really know why or how, but there was a sudden moment of clarity when I threw a unite bomb into a multi-morph and wrecked some enemies. I had been cheesing my way through the game until this point, finishing it just so I could say that I had, but at this point, I decided to take my time and see the game for what it actually was, rather than what I wanted it to be.

Immediately, I went back and replayed all the previous levels, treating each enemy encounter as if it was my first. To my surprise, the game was really easy. I knew exactly what each enemy would do and how they would do it. Soon, I knew exactly how to trigger each formerly-frustrating sequence, and the "bugs" that I encountered on my first run were very easily avoided.

Yep. That first play through is a learning experience. After that everything you thought was clumsy or broken reveals itself to be... not that much. It's a very chaotic game and I understand the initial frustrations as I had them myself and was about ready to trade the game in, but the fact that I kept at it is probably the best gaming decision I've ever made.
 

Weetrick

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Yep. That first play through is a learning experience. After that everything you thought was clumsy or broken reveals itself to be... not that much. It's a very chaotic game and I understand the initial frustrations as I had them myself and was about ready to trade the game in, but the fact that I kept at it is probably the best gaming decision I've ever made.

I have fundamental problems with this argument. A game like this should not require multiple playthrough to learn.
 

Neff

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The way your team is knocked out by attacks is unnecessarily punishing for a game full of conventional mechanics in distinctly unconventional packages, where a great deal of trial and error is needed just to reach the level of basic proficiency that experienced action gamers can enjoy right away in Bayonetta or practically any other decent character action title. That's part of what I meant when I said the game was dragged down by frustrating design choices. It's true: TW101 could be every bit as unique and inventive without slapping down players for making mistakes as harshly as it does. What if your fallen team members revived themselves more quickly? What if enemy attacks broke your unite morphs without scattering your team across the battlefield? What would have been the downside to allowing struggling players (i.e. everyone, at first) to have a more enjoyable learning process? 

I remember a blog entry on Platinum's site about Bayonetta 1. The enemy AI designer (or someone with a similar role) discussed the finer points of keeping players engaged during challenging combat. Too easy and the player won't feel threatened; too difficult and the player will get frustrated. This sensitivity to the player's experience is absent in TW101. It is brutal and relentless. Players are funneled through a chaotic gauntlet of escalating challenges with no opportunity to get their bearings except by replaying earlier missions. This isn't a fundamental design flaw, it's a balance issue. One that would have been simple enough to correct by tweaking a few gameplay mechanics.

Why not let players dodge even with an empty battery meter, but not use Unite Guts unless there's enough charge? Why not allow unlimited use of the Wonder Liner to retrieve items and knocked out team members, and to queue up unite morphs, but require charge to actually confirm a new morph? TW101's battery meter could work much like Bayonetta's magic meter, where charge allows you to perform additional or powered up moves while your basic move set and most recent morph remain available at all times. Wouldn't the game be better with this and other small changes to improve combat flow and general accessibility? To me the answer is obvious.

I'm not going to insult you by stating that Wonderful 101 isn't Bayonetta, I'm sure you realise that. But let's look at a crucial difference.

Wonderful 101 strives to emphasise the value of teamwork and strength in numbers. The momentary loss of those 20 or so guys hits you harder than the fractional damage to your lifebar. This setback is offset by the fact that you only ever fight two or three major enemies at once, and that most of their attacks come out pretty slow. Taking a hit in W101 is rare once you realise what is going to hit you and how it's going to do it, and that most things can either be parried or dodged very, very easily. The average melee grunt winds up his punch/charge for a second at least, and the dodge has an unusually long duration. So IMO it's still a fair punishment. Frustrating when it happens, and by contrast exhilarating when it doesn't.

Likewise, implementing such a mechanic in Bayonetta (get hit and you can't punch for a few seconds - no thanks) would be hell, because the game is rife with damaging, fast attacks, and both Witch Time and Counters require good timing.

W101 only has its roots in the character action genre, and despite being an action game through and through, it's entirely beneficial to take a step back and realise it for what it is- a very unique title in terms of control, management and logic.
 

roknin

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Employ Guts when they stomp, swipe them with Unite Sword, attack the weak point with Unite Hammer.

TBH late game I just hit them with max-size hammer a couple times. Got tired of their shit. XD

I never realized how brutal the giant hammer can be. Jesus.
 

brandonh83

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I have fundamental problems with this argument. A game like this should not require multiple playthrough to learn.

It doesn't require multiple playthroughs to learn and I feel that way about most action games like this. I'm always terrible at them until I've played them for a while and they beg to be replayed anyway. When I finished 101 I was immediately ready to start it up again. I knew "how" to play the game very early on but the more I played it everything started to click more and things I found to be frustrating earlier on weren't at all anymore.
 

NotLiquid

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I have fundamental problems with this argument. A game like this should not require multiple playthrough to learn.

I wouldn't say it's a good defense and even so TW101 doesn't really require it. That said, Kamiya made it controversially open on Twitter that TW101 is a game meant to be replayed much like all of his other games prior. DMC, Bayonetta and Viewtiful Joe all had the same mentality and I'd argue the same "learning experience" applies to all of those. What most people bring up as multiple playthroughs is an easier way to say "try playing the first mission after getting halfway through the game and see how much you've learned and what you'd do differently", because a lot of the time people don't even realize how much they've come to adapt to a certain skillset. (Endgame spoilers)
This is why the epilogue chapter was a really good way to cap off the game. It puts you in the same scenario as the opening (with a bonus ability mind), and you have a solid grasp on all the hooks of the game, making it a quick thing to breeze through.

Hell even setting aside TW101 for a moment, DMC4 is an action game I've played for almost a hundred hours and still haven't even grasped the sheer amount of depth and complexity that game has to offer. I'd say it's a bad thing if a game takes too long to have you understand the mechanics but the good things with games like these is that there's a meta so deep that each playthrough in and of itself is a learning experience that grows greater the more you explore.
 

Riposte

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TW101 does hold back quite a bit until you get gun or whip (which isn't 20 or 10 or even 5 hours) and generally speaking how Platinum does unlocbles is rarely a plus. However, this is completely different from saying "game doesn't get good until x number of hours" when you really mean "you don't get good until x number of hours" (and not being good bothers you). People trying to equate the two are either talking passed each other or missing the point.

Tutorials like Saur's (and to an extent, all tutorials - for all games) are a crutch (hand-holding). It is essentially as if someone played the game for you and translated the knowledge of playing to you. It is a handy thing if you don't want to explore the combat system for yourself, pushing a lot of buttons to see what works and going through punishment for it. Maybe you really don't want to go through that kind of experience for a style of game that requires it (i.e., a style of game you haven't played before), so put in that cheat code and you are now where you want to be experience-wise. (As I said, this is true for all games, for example, this is common practice for any highly competitive genre, where strategy takes on the form of a science, for better or worse.) On the other hand, circumventing this is definitely not mandatory. It's really dumb when I hear someone use the existence and popularity to support their claims, like "Clearly, if the game requires a guide then...". It's so annoying it makes me want to say "No dummy, you just lack the effort or intelligence (since with intelligence comes less need for effort) of the guys who wrote that guide!"

The problem with basing criticism on "obtuseness" is the amount of changing variables that this is depended on (I hate saying this, you can think of it being highly "subjective"). A game's obtuseness is literally invisible to someone who "gets it" (although it would be more accurate to say it not being obtuse is invisible to those who don't "get it"). To demand they factor that into their criticism is asking them to stop thinking for themselves. Everyone has their own point of view to make judgments from, but these point of views are judged just as often as anything else. Unless we are small-minded and favor those who agree with us, we favor those who can demonstrate they see farthest, and rightly so. The comparison between point of views can also be temporal, as in you from ten days ago vs. the you now. Why is the old you important to the you now? Why do you respect your inferior, discarded interpretation? Consider that all that an elaborate to say this: Clearly games can be unpleasantly obtuse, mainly when they are more obtuse than "they need to be", but it is highly questionable how punished they should be for it.

And another thought: I'm sure I've said exactly this before, but TW101 does what a lot of games do these days: it fails you forward. The punishment for being bad is not just passed off into an extra, harmless grading system, but also giving the feeling of being bad. I think it was pointed out in this thread how shitty it feels to get your dudes knocked around; it really does suck! But that's the point and it's very preventable. What makes TW101 standout is that it actually demanding, it wants good answers for the problems it presents (the combat system is based around hard counters, kind of my favorite thing about it). Given the answers are most often so clear (not to say that games doesn't have any esoteric elements), I think it is fairer to say TW101 is more punishing than it is obtuse, except punishing in this case means feeling like shit while you get by, not getting a gameover (which is real bad to me, but arguably better than constantly hitting a brick wall for most of the playerbase).

Finally, perhaps as a tangent or follow-up to something else, there's a very good reason to immediately doubt someone's intentions when what they say can be perceived in anyway as blame-shifting. One may see this as fanboy-ism, but this is a highly necessary defense against bad ideas. The pervasiveness of scrubiness (resentment) in human nature cannot be understated and the power the sensation of frustration has over our perception is undeniable. All arguments, although based in logic, are influenced by psychology (although maybe you can even switch these). It doesn't mean they are always scrubs of course, but it's something you have to weed out in a public conversation anyone could contribute to. (I feel like poor intentions reveal themselves in language or tone, so it's easy.) This may come off as extreme, but it's most healthy to begin with blaming yourself and try to find any excuse for anything or anyone else before you change your mind.

EDIT: I think the Mathewmathewhatever review (the youtube link posted on previous pages) is a pretty good defense of the game (in addition to it being a critique that points out flaws).
 
Jul 10, 2014
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Sorry to just join all these guys shitting all over you, and I personally think you presented your arguments very, very well, but you're just bad at the game, man. That's all.
 

Brqan

Member
Dec 10, 2012
570
0
340
When I started playing W101 I sucked but after my first play through it clicked and now I'm doing a pure platinum run. Custom blocks are a big help!
 

jholmes

Member
Jan 15, 2014
5,418
1
330
That puzzle boss room in Mega Man 2 is being taken out of context too. It's not a random roadblock somewhere in the game, a game in which "choice is paramount".

It's part of the Wiley Fortress gauntlet. Every stage of the linear Wiley stages is designed to test the player's knowledge of the previous 8 stages and the weapons of each boss robot. There are plenty of sections in the Wiley levels which require the use of a specific weapon. Which the player already has by virtue of having beaten the 8 bosses. And if you fail by running out of energy, you start over and come prepared next time. In fact, the Wiley levels are peppered with infinitely respawning enemies at specific points intended to let the player refill every weapon before proceeding.

That's not bad design. It's a check of game mastery and preparedness.

Please remind me of the several times in Mega Man 2's Wily Fortress where if you have already used a weapon in that stage you are forced to get a game over and then continue to progress through the game.

I swear some people on this board will defend anything. I love Mega Man 2. You're allowed to criticize things you like!
 

JDSN

Banned
Sep 13, 2006
23,948
0
0
This game sucked and I was excited for it for the longest time based on Kamiya hype, it sucked, I enjoyed DMC, Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden with no issue, im not gonna watch some youtube video of some dude so I "know" how to play it "The right way"(tm).
 
Feb 10, 2014
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This game sucked and I was excited for it for the longest time based on Kamiya hype, it sucked, I enjoyed DMC, Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden with no issue, im not gonna watch some youtube video of some dude so I "know" how to play it "The right way"(tm).

What sucked about it?
 

Rockk

Member
Mar 17, 2014
887
0
0
Yeah guys, it's just like how Destiny and FF13 don't get good until about 20 hours in....

The first playthrough is a tutorial. The first playthrough is also fun. These are not exclusive things.

Understandable since every game since 2002 has had a terrible tutorial.
 

Sami+

Member
May 2, 2013
10,665
1
0
Tallahassee
This game sucked and I was excited for it for the longest time based on Kamiya hype, it sucked, I enjoyed DMC, Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden with no issue, im not gonna watch some youtube video of some dude so I "know" how to play it "The right way"(tm).

I think the most obnoxious thing about a majority of the game's defense is the condescending "clearly you just want everything handed to you and that's totally ok, this game is just too hardcore for you" attitude that comes with it.

Perhaps I play games for different reasons than most W101 fans, but when a series of internet tutorials are essentially "required reading" for something as simple as basic enjoyment of the game then something is wrong. Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy are both notorious for being extremely difficult, but rewarding games for their respective genres, and yet neither of them have as difficult of a time presenting themselves to the player as W101 does.

"Git gud" is such an awful argument.
 

FlashbladeGAF

Member
Sep 11, 2006
8,572
2
905
I think the most obnoxious thing about a majority of the game's defense is the condescending "clearly you just want everything handed to you and that's totally ok, this game is just too hardcore for you" attitude that comes with it.

Perhaps I play games for different reasons than most W101 fans, but when a series of internet tutorials are essentially "required reading" for something as simple as basic enjoyment of the game then something is wrong. Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy are both notorious for being extremely difficult, but rewarding games for their respective genres, and yet neither of them have as difficult of a time presenting themselves to the player as W101 does.

"Git gud" is such an awful argument.

Fans of the game have acknowledge that the game's teaching of the basics could get overlooked by others among the chaos.

The Saur videos I, and other helpful people, have posted, aren't required... it's just us trying to find an easier way to introduce gameplay to those who may not have the time or patience to experiment themselves.
...and also to those who call the game trash or broken because they didn't know how to do something.

Unlike Dark Souls, this games action presents itself differently than past games. You can't borrow skills from Zelda, or any other action adventure game to help you with W101

The only thing you can do is learn from your mistakes, and press on in order to "git gud"

The game is exhilarating on it's own without having to learn anything. If your into it's style and brand of action, that will carry you along on your journey to git gud. If you don't like it. then quit.

But don't say it's a terrible game when you've only experienced a 1/10 of it and others have expressed how awesome it is.

I can't stand Elder Scrolls, but I won't call it a bad game, because the combat isn't as graceful as a P* game
 

Peff

Member
Dec 10, 2008
7,040
0
0
fans, but when a series of internet tutorials are essentially "required reading" for something as simple as basic enjoyment of the game

They're not. The only thing that's "required" to enjoy TW101 is patience. You can learn all the quirks and strategies by experimenting and watching what enemies do.
 

roknin

Member
Jun 3, 2013
1,677
0
0
It's not about the game. It's about the reaction. Literally the first post is "git gud" and the next few are virtual high-fives because "he sure told him". OP posted a fairly in-depth response as to WHY he didn't like it. He didn't just say it sucked and THAT's what he got?

Yeah, if the fanbase is SO happy being niche then it should get niche sales.

You know how quickly I'd've been done with GAF if I just wrote it off completely on the driveby posts as a sign of the entire community?

Come on man, that shit's not even fair.
 

Coffee Dog

Banned
Aug 23, 2012
14,437
1
0
This game sucked and I was excited for it for the longest time based on Kamiya hype, it sucked, I enjoyed DMC, Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden with no issue, im not gonna watch some youtube video of some dude so I "know" how to play it "The right way"(tm).

But it's not required. I mean, I didn't need it. I had the basics down as they were being introduced, because I wasn't afraid to experiment and establish boundaries on what I could and could not do.

I think the most obnoxious thing about a majority of the game's defense is the condescending "clearly you just want everything handed to you and that's totally ok, this game is just too hardcore for you" attitude that comes with it.

Perhaps I play games for different reasons than most W101 fans, but when a series of internet tutorials are essentially "required reading" for something as simple as basic enjoyment of the game then something is wrong. Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy are both notorious for being extremely difficult, but rewarding games for their respective genres, and yet neither of them have as difficult of a time presenting themselves to the player as W101 does.

"Git gud" is such an awful argument.

That's because Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy are much, much closer to other games in their genres. If you know how to play platformers, it isn't hard to figure out meat boy because it is very similar. Not so with W101, where the dynamic of controlling 100 characters to fight giant enemies radically changes a lot of fundamental aspects of the character action genre.

It's something new, and unknown. And all it asks of players is to learn it for what it is, instead of attempting to skate by on your knowledge of what it isn't. And that's too much for a lot of people. And that's alright.

As for the bolded, that's what it is though, isn't it? The barrier here is the game is asking you to learn its very deep mechanics and that learning curve doesn't pay off immediately. It pays off after a few hours of experimentation and familiarity with the game's mechanics. It doesn't mean you want everything handed to you, no, but it shows an unwillingness to engage the game on anything more than an immediate surface level when it comes to those mechanics, that in the case of W101 very much define the experience.
 

atr0cious

Member
Jan 15, 2014
8,736
0
0
SF Bay Area
www.twitch.tv
I think the most obnoxious thing about a majority of the game's defense is the condescending "clearly you just want everything handed to you and that's totally ok, this game is just too hardcore for you" attitude that comes with it.

Perhaps I play games for different reasons than most W101 fans, but when a series of internet tutorials are essentially "required reading" for something as simple as basic enjoyment of the game then something is wrong. Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy are both notorious for being extremely difficult, but rewarding games for their respective genres, and yet neither of them have as difficult of a time presenting themselves to the player as W101 does.

"Git gud" is such an awful argument.

I learned how to play from playing the demo a bunch. The mechanics are so rewarding, especially for people that like putting effort into their playstyle. Saur's video just let me know that I was the one who wasn't good, not the game. If Saur can juggle an enemy with the glider:

http://youtu.be/QYQWf6iyvB4?t=25s

Then obviously the controls can't broken.

Hell, even my partner could multi-unite after one sit down, and all I did was tell her that it was a technique she would need later. And she still uses the touchpad!
 

Kyzon

Member
Jul 30, 2012
8,227
0
445
Las Vegas
The spike guts is an ability you have to buy, (and I didn't have when I fought the turtles). Can you see the problem now? The game is not "playable" enough until you unlock certain abilities.

I want to say you can do it with the normal guts, but I upgraded immediately so idk.

Either way, you only have to buy 2 upgrades to really start shining.

Guts, and Spring Dodge thingy. The other stuff is just to up your badass factor.
 

NotLiquid

Member
Aug 30, 2012
17,950
5
0
I want to say you can do it with the normal guts, but I upgraded immediately so idk.

Either way, you only have to buy 2 upgrades to really start shining.

Guts, and Spring Dodge thingy. The other stuff is just to up your badass factor.

Yeah the Spike Guts only add extra damage onto a successfully deflected hard counter. It doesn't actually let you counter any moves you weren't able to do before with the regular Unite Guts.
 

roknin

Member
Jun 3, 2013
1,677
0
0
This game sucked and I was excited for it for the longest time based on Kamiya hype, it sucked, I enjoyed DMC, Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden with no issue, im not gonna watch some youtube video of some dude so I "know" how to play it "The right way"(tm).

I'm leaving it a lone after this, but you don't have to do that. At all.

Think of it like Punch Out!!.

You can muddle through Punch Out and get to the end and have fun just fine. though you'll probably get your ass ran by TD Sandman a LOT before you're able to TKO him with like one minute left.

(Interesting note: I've seen complaints from people about the game being too hard or too fast or cheap or even broken by the time they get to the likes of TD Soda Pop... when its just a matter of needing to spend the time learning his tells and why he does what he does.)

Or, if you get through some of the game and you can't figure out why shit isn't making sense or why you can't damage TD Bear Hugger, you might start looking up vids of better players to get a grasp on what to do, what you're missing, and maybe go back and improve other times because of the tech you learned.

I can't speak for everyone on the pro side of the Grand W101 Fence, but what most are saying isn't "YOU MUST WATCH SAUR VIDS", but that if you are having trouble grasping the game or some tactics or fights are dragging out, his vids (or others other there) are probably really helpful.

Otherwise? You can muddle through the game just fine. The game barely punishes you on Normal, I can't even think of many games where if you die/game over on the boss, you're put right back in the battle and the Boss gains no (or little?) health back.

You can argue that yes, the game could have better tutorials and I'd absolutely agree. Its the same argument that's been had about fighting games for ages. (Though that in and of itself brings up an interesting argument since by and large, a ton of games from Nintendo tend to get the "stop holding my hand!" complaint. Needs to be a middle ground.)

But when I read something like "man, I can't keep enough battery, this is a problem with the gameplay", then yeah, I kinda' feel the need to help a brotha' out: "do this, this and this and you'll rarely ever have battery problems".

I'mma' leave it alone though and see how things progress for Griss himself, as he's seemed to have gotten past some of the more aggravating parts of the game, and there's plenty of tips in the thread to help out if he's indeed looking to finish the playthrough. =)
 

matrix-cat

Member
Jan 9, 2009
10,072
1
0
I guess there are two kinds of people, because when I hear that Hideki Kamiya's made an extraordinarily complex action game that's completely unlike anything else I've ever played, I sign the fuck up and relish the opportunity to git gud. I don't know how you can be presented with evidence of people playing the game skilfully on Youtube and come away thinking "This game's bullshit" rather than "Oh, I have a lot to learn".

With very few exceptions (*coughRevengeanceMastiffscough*), Platinum's games are always balanced and fair to the player. They require a lot of skill from you, but they reward you with some of the best gameplay in the industry once you put in the time. I don't see why something like having to get hit by an attack before you learn to dodge or block it is a problem at all; how else are you going to learn? When you fight the tanks you listen for their audio cues. When you fight the turtles you watch their eyes for the red flash. The only attack I can never seem to dodge is when Vijounne does her spinny platform thing, but I've seen people Pure Platinum that fight on Youtube so I know there has to be a tell I haven't spotted yet.

Experimentation and experience will overcome pretty much everything mentioned in the OP. You'll learn to conserve your energy and to keep your dudes grouped up in a fight. The better you get at dodging attacks the less frequently you'll have to run around gathering up all your guys, and even then you can always use the Wonder Liner to speed up the process. Even stuff like keeping track of your leader while platforming is easily solved: just tap the sprint button and he'll run out ahead of the group, so you just need to concentrate on the big glowing circle underneath him and trust that the others will follow. Seriously, almost all these problems are solved by git-ing gud-er.
 

frankie_baby

Member
May 3, 2007
18,401
0
0
I think the most obnoxious thing about a majority of the game's defense is the condescending "clearly you just want everything handed to you and that's totally ok, this game is just too hardcore for you" attitude that comes with it.

Perhaps I play games for different reasons than most W101 fans, but when a series of internet tutorials are essentially "required reading" for something as simple as basic enjoyment of the game then something is wrong. Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy are both notorious for being extremely difficult, but rewarding games for their respective genres, and yet neither of them have as difficult of a time presenting themselves to the player as W101 does.

"Git gud" is such an awful argument.

I didn't need any tutorials, it was pretty obvious and easy to play around and work things out
 

Raiden

Banned
Sep 19, 2005
10,068
0
0
I really hate this rationale as it mostly seems reductive but...yeah OP, most of your complaints feel like they would be solved by sitting closer to the screen.

Honestly, your entire article makes it seem like you just haven't gotten used to the combat options. I'm just gonna link to you Saur's tutorial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdHbPXNJvVE

This game's learning curve is step, but it is, by no means, insurmountable.

Damn so thats how you play the game.

I got it yesterday for 25 euros (was on the fence for this one) and choose the normal difficulty because usually i'm pretty good at games. But i cant even count how many times i've died so far and i love it. I dont even remember the last time a game really challenged me.

I do agree with some of the OP's points though, but i really believe this is a game that either you'll either be good at and love it, or keep sucking and hate it.

Pretty sure thats why it only has an average 77% score or so. Reviewers usually want to get their shit done in time.

Also first thing i thought that these were the developers that did Viewtiful Joe .. its uncanny