• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

LTTP: Tomb Raider 2013 and why I like it better than Uncharted 4

Varjis

Member
Mar 16, 2006
365
0
1,230
I did enjoy the sense of exploration more in TR 2013, but overall the UC series was very enjoyable. (Except Lazarevic, he was awful and can die in a fire repeatedly.)
 

JayB1920

Member
Sep 25, 2015
389
3
235
Pennsylvania
I don't see your statement as being defensible.

Having a puzzle where I have to shoot natural gas seeping from the ground with an arrow lit by a lighter so that it can blaze some obstacles and shift the weight of a platform that allows me to access a new area, or using a rope to pull open window blinds to adjust the wind and then use the rope to ring a bell with enough force to collapse the floor are not half-assed or badly implemented puzzle mechanics compared to any mindless traversal puzzle in Uncharted where you push a crate.

Yeah the puzzle weren't necessarily difficult but they are cleverly implemented and fun to solve. ROTR steps the scale and complexity of the puzzles up a bit though the game feels a bit unfocused due to all the collectible filler and pointless busy-time missions compared to TR2013. There are also WAY too many documents to collect and if you are OCD like me and let the voice over finish the pacing is killed at times. The optional crypts and tombs are nice though.
 

NullPointer

Member
May 4, 2006
44,304
3
0
San Francisco
Somehow I don't remember using a rope in Tomb Raider. Weird. Was it a main mechanic in the game?
Rope arrow. You used it to create new ziplines and to pull, swing, or break objects. Uncharted 4 had a few bits where you pulled your rope to break things in a similar manner.

New Tomb Raiders use your equipment to gate the world, and you need certain items to find secret stashes and the game's small tombs.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Jun 7, 2004
85,523
4
0
I agree that theres nothing wrong with it. It's that gamerfan is spreading misinformation that auto-aim is presumably on by default in any other mode, unless he only played the game on Explorer Mode, in which case him saying that "Uncharted is made for casuals" and "can be beaten while blindfolded" is straight up shit posting considering he might have played the game on the easiest mode.

Yeah, I didn't even know it was on by default in any mode until I saw it mentioned in this thread. It's also worth mentioning that the auto-aim isn't really even there for casuals as much as it's there for disabled gamers. It's a pretty cool inclusion due to that and I think we'll see it more in the future for the same reason.
 

Lys Skygge

Member
Jun 23, 2014
4,996
0
0
Arizona
Yeah, I didn't even know it was on by default in any mode until I saw it mentioned in this thread. It's also worth mentioning that the auto-aim isn't really even there for casuals as much as it's there for disabled gamers. It's a pretty cool inclusion due to that and I think we'll see it more in the future for the same reason.

I honestly didn't know either, and I agree that it's a great inclusion for not only disabled gamers, but for people like my girlfriend who love to play games for story, but aren't very good at the gameplay itself.
 

Valonquar

Member
Jun 27, 2013
2,584
1,344
755
Winston Salem, NC
Neither game had a puzzle that took more than 3 minutes to complete, mostly due to clunky control mechanics and never due to actual thought being necessary. Honestly, I'd rather they left them out entirely if they are going to be so trivial, and completely void of risk.
 

Zeuanimals

Member
Feb 15, 2014
1,880
0
450
Hodor
Hardcore gamers like xp bars, lots of collectables, and eagle vision to point them in the right direction so they can do some hardcore physics puzzles

I wonder if anybody's gonna like Half Life 3 if it's not an open world, lite-RPG-lite game with tons of things to pick up to craft stuff and Batvision to help you do so. And apparently, it's better to focus on adding these things than having a solid script and good characterization since these things helped Tomb Raider be a better game than Uncharted.
 

KinofChaos

Banned
Mar 24, 2016
759
0
0
IMO TR 2013 was average at best and the new one is not any better, poor combat encounters, awful writing and story. Throwing in some collect items open world BS doesn't make it better.
 

dlauv

Member
Apr 6, 2014
3,994
96
455
Texas
After a couple of "level" ups you can access to the melee counterattack (which can be upgraded to an instakill) and the sand attack, (which affects every type of enemy) both of which can get you an invincible instakill making melee combat a fuckin' joke (the last big encounter with samurais on towers? Let the melee ones follow you on a safe place and use dodge (which is super forgiving) and attack in succession... you just eliminated the "biggest" threat in the game)
Gun upgrades are almost as bullshit OP, with the pistol being stupidly good from the start... Armored people aren't even that special due to an upgraded bow being able to one hit kill anything (EVEN THE BOSS ON THE SHIP.)
Then explosives and the shotgun are stupidly weak, to the point that a pistol single shot is more effettive on killing an enemy than both (that also mean that enemy fire grenades are just there to annoy instead of trying to kill you).
Then the encounters are for most part based on waves except for when they are set on a "platforming path" and TR easily plays more like a cover shooter on the most crowded ones in comparison to Straley's Uncharted (it helps that Drake feels faster in traversing the battlefield)

That's good and fun tho. I suppose you would have the same complaints about RE4's invincibility frame manipulation.

I hate Uncharted's combat because it's clunky and stagnant.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Jun 7, 2004
21,120
0
0
This thread:

U4=Overrated garbage
TR2013=Overrated dumpster fire.
 

Zeuanimals

Member
Feb 15, 2014
1,880
0
450
Hodor
That's good and fun tho. I suppose you would have the same complaints about RE4.

I hate Uncharted's combat because it's clunky and stagnant.

You aren't very powerful in RE4 until late in the game, and even then, most insta-kill weapons are too costly to use. You can get by in Tomb Raider doing nothing but insta-killing. Not to mention the AI is not anywhere near as relentless as the RE4 AI, if not just for the lack of care for their own mortality. Even early in Tomb Raider, the bow can insta-kill consistently with headshots which are made easy by AI that make it easy.

Edit: Nvm, you edited. To be fair to RE4, you're using tank controls. The game would be a lot harder without forgiving invincibility frames while Tomb Raider could do without it, especially since you've got regenerating health in TR.
 

Arcteryx

Member
Nov 10, 2011
4,100
3
0
Seattle
Agreed. TR/RoTTR blew me away. I haven't played UC4, but from what I remember of UC3...I think the crown has been re-taken by Lara.
 

Catdaddy

Member
Mar 27, 2014
4,126
1
430
TN
I can’t disagree with the OP, UC is rich in story and characters, but the combat is okay and transversal gets tedious. The Scotland area got me. I actually like “innocent to blood thirsty” Lara as a better protagonist than “cocky” Nate. I’d place TR13 and RotTR just a hair better than UC4, UC3 and UC1… UC2 is just too good, combat flaws and all.
 

SneakyStephan

Banned
Jan 23, 2011
18,401
0
0
Haven't played uc4 but I enjoyed tr2013 a lot more than the first 3 uncharted games.

Being able to use mouse and keyboard to aim probably went some way towards making it more enjoyable as well.
 

KinofChaos

Banned
Mar 24, 2016
759
0
0
I can’t disagree with the OP, UC is rich in story and characters, but the combat is okay and transversal gets tedious. The Scotland area got me. I actually like “innocent to blood thirsty” Lara as a better protagonist than “cocky” Nate. I’d place TR13 and RotTR just a hair better than UC4, UC3 and UC1… UC2 is just too good, combat flaws and all.

Same can be said of TR, UC combat is way better imo, the areanas are way better designed then TR which is as basic as it gets.,
 

dlauv

Member
Apr 6, 2014
3,994
96
455
Texas
You aren't very powerful in RE4 until late in the game, and even then, most insta-kill weapons are too costly to use. You can get by in Tomb Raider doing nothing but insta-killing. Not to mention the AI is not anywhere near as relentless as the RE4 AI, if not just for the lack of care for their own mortality. Even early in Tomb Raider, the bow can insta-kill consistently with headshots which are made easy by AI that make it easy.

Are you playing on M&K? The game isn't really designed around using that unfortunately. It essentially makes the game a point and click for about half of it. Gamepad is pretty easy too, sure. The bow isn't very fun to use, because it creates a lot of needless sitting and waiting, but it's serviceable if you like that kind of spooking around gameplay.

I'm not saying the games are directly comparable. In reference to RE4, I was talking about abusing invincibility frames in melee to spice up the gunplay and create crowd control. If Uncharted had anything like this it would be a lot better, but like Rise of the Tomb Raider, you can die during melee finishers.

Edit: Nvm, you read my edit. I don't think TR13 is as good as RE4 at all, lol. I just think it's pretty good. It's a bit too easy though.
 

AU Tiger

Member
Jan 16, 2014
1,180
0
0
Outside of the story which I do believe is improved, I thought it was a step back from '13.

Yep. It's a lot prettier (though the first one was freaking gorgeous also) but I agree that's about all it has vs the first with the only notable exception being the incredible challenge tombs of ROTTR. The challenge tombs have been exceptional where as the first game they felt like tacked on afterthoughts.

The first one had an incredible metroid-vania style progression that let you not only continue through the main story but also unlock so many secrets, items, weapon/item upgrades and tombs.
 

JayB1920

Member
Sep 25, 2015
389
3
235
Pennsylvania
Yep. It's a lot prettier (though the first one was freaking gorgeous also) but I agree that's about all it has vs the first with the only notable exception being the incredible challenge tombs of ROTTR. The challenge tombs have been exceptional where as the first game they felt like tacked on afterthoughts.

The first one had an incredible metroid-vania style progression that let you not only continue through the main story but also unlock so many secrets, items, weapon/item upgrades and tombs.

ROTR has the same metroid-vania style progression. Problem with ROTR is the overabundance of collectibles (coin and survival caches) and the tacked on translation system. You got more than enough crating resources hunting and exploring so survival caches were useless. The translation system had potential but it never lead to anything except coin caches to dig up. The tombs and well hidden crypts are rewarding enough reasons to explore without all the extra stuff and documents and relics are more than enough as far as collectibles go.

You do know the first showing for Uncharted 4's gameplay was before Rise of the Tomb Raider?
Irrelevant as the climbing axe and rope was in TR2013 as well. Actually the grapple has been in the series since 2006 with TR Legend.
 

Zeuanimals

Member
Feb 15, 2014
1,880
0
450
Hodor
Are you playing on M&K? The game isn't really designed around using that unfortunately. It essentially makes the game a point and click for about half of it. Gamepad is pretty easy too, sure. The bow isn't very fun to use, because it creates a lot of needless sitting and waiting, but it's serviceable if you like that kind of spooking around gameplay.

I'm not saying the games are directly comparable. In reference to RE4, I was talking about abusing invincibility frames in melee to spice up the gunplay and create crowd control. If Uncharted had anything like this it would be a lot better, but like Rise of the Tomb Raider, you can die during melee finishers.

Edit: Nvm, you read my edit. I don't think TR13 is as good as RE4 at all, lol. I just think it's pretty good. It's a bit too easy though.

My problem with Tomb Raider is that combat just wasn't very fun. It has no traditional melee or hipfire meaning close ranged encounters end up the same as long ranged encounters, aim down the sights or draw your bow. You could use the OP counter mechanics if they should melee you, but those aren't fun to use. I found the enemy AI to be pretty dumb, they were dumb in the old Uncharted's too but you didn't really get OP weapons to put the odds way in your favor. The level design was basic with most combat encounters involving your typical waist high cover areas with not much verticality involved. You were encouraged to stay in place since you both have the bow, dumb AI that were easy to headshot (even with non-bow weapons, and I played on PS3), and no real incentive to get up close. I didn't use up enough ammo in combat to need to move to pick some up, I moved anyway sometimes just because and I often didn't take cover, but I never really felt I needed to.

Uncharted, even 1-3, were mostly much better with combat. You were encouraged to move since the enemies took a lot more bullets to kill and you had to go pick up ammo and weapons. The shoot + melee combo was one of the most OP things you can do since even a few bullets can allow for a one hit melee kill, so you're encouraged to do this. Sure, that can get repetitive but I found it much more satisfying to do than anything in Tomb Raider. If you add in grenades to get enemies to take cover, you can single out certain enemies and shoot + melee them without being shot at. I only used cover to heal up (or since it's not actually health and it's actually Nate's luck decreasing, to get lucky). And that was the gameplay loop, one that I found much more satisfying than the one(s) Tomb Raider 2013 offered. Maybe I played Tomb Raider wrong, but nothing it offered that I tried really felt right.
 

dlauv

Member
Apr 6, 2014
3,994
96
455
Texas
Uncharted, even 1-3, were mostly much better with combat. You were encouraged to move since the enemies took a lot more bullets to kill and you had to go pick up ammo and weapons. The shoot + melee combo was one of the most OP things you can do since even a few bullets can allow for a one hit melee kill, so you're encouraged to do this.

I disagree. Beating UC1-3 on hard, you're best off sitting largely in the same cover and pot-shotting their heads rather than risking clunking it up with the dodge/inaccurate magnetic cover system. Enemies rarely react to your shots, unlike TR, so it makes the game even more cover-based. It's just boring. Enemies are crazy accurate with their weapons and movement is punishing. On normal, however, it's too forgiving and you can literally run in circles eating many shots before dying, but I wouldn't confuse that for rewarding movement. They're honestly some of the worst TPS/platforming games I've played, but maybe I haven't played some truly truly bad ones.
 

Fancy Clown

Member
Dec 3, 2013
15,752
7
0
I disagree. Beating UC1-3 on hard, you're best off sitting largely in the same cover and pot-shotting their heads rather than risking clunking it up with the dodge/inaccurate magnetic cover system. Enemies rarely react to your shots, unlike TR, so it makes the game even more cover-based. It's just boring. Enemies are crazy accurate with their weapons and movement is punishing. On normal, however, it's too forgiving and you can literally run in circles eating many shots before dying, but I wouldn't confuse that for rewarding movement. They're honestly some of the worst TPS/platforming games I've played, but maybe I haven't played some truly truly bad ones.

Enemies react to pretty much every hit you land on them in 1&2 (in 3 they only react to like every other hit). Hard was perfect difficulty too, you could easily play very mobile but it provides a good challenge.
 

Zeuanimals

Member
Feb 15, 2014
1,880
0
450
Hodor
I disagree. Beating UC1-3 on hard, you're best off sitting largely in the same cover and pot shotting their heads, or risking clunking it up with the dodge/inaccurate magnetic cover system. Enemies rarely react to your shots, so it makes the game even more cover-based. It's just boring and easy. Enemies are crazy accurate with their weapons and movement is punishing. On normal, however, it's too forgiving and you can literally run in circles eating shots before dying.

Like someone else in the thread said, playing on harder difficulties doesn't always make a game better and it does tend to make Uncharted annoying, at least on crushing. I found hard to be a good balance up until you get to the BS juggernaut guys. And yeah, the dodge/cover system is clunky and can lead to some deaths, but I can live with a few bad runs if at least when it works, it's fun. Tomb Raider doesn't offer anything that is at all as engaging in comparison.
 

dlauv

Member
Apr 6, 2014
3,994
96
455
Texas
Enemies react to pretty much every hit you land on them in 1&2 (in 3 they only react to like every other hit). Hard was perfect difficulty too, you could easily play very mobile but it provides a good challenge.

You're right. Watching videos, it's true they get stunned momentarily if they're not in cover (if they're in cover, it's dicey). But they don't really get stunned for very long at all. So, if you aren't repeatedly shooting them, they'll shoot back. But while you're whittling down their large health bars, the other AI is shooting at you. I mean, reading this it seems pretty bog standard, but there is a high enemy count in Uncharted which can make gunfights tedious. Compare that to my experience in the reply I make below. I played through 2 and 3 about two months ago back to back, so it's a little embarrassing I didn't recall the stun time that is there.

Like someone else in the thread said, playing on harder difficulties doesn't always make a game better and it does tend to make Uncharted annoying, at least on crushing. I found hard to be a good balance up until you get to the BS juggernaut guys. And yeah, the dodge/cover system is clunky and can lead to some deaths, but I can live with a few bad runs if at least when it works, it's fun. Tomb Raider doesn't offer anything that is at all as engaging in comparison.

Yeah, but I don't really find that as fun as shooting a guy, hobbling/rolling up to him while he's got some noticeable stun time, probably throwing sand at a group near to him (or behind him, as it ignores barriers), finishing him off with an invincible melee finisher to begin the health recuperation countdown and then either blasting the stunned guys with a shotgun if they're further away or just hacking at them with melee. It creates a rhythm more involved than just straight cover shooting. You're fighting guys with axes, guns, and shields (that you have to dodge to melee finish) all at once and their feedback to your weapons is just fantastic and impacting. And if you were to play the game like Uncharted, as a straight-forward cover shooter, then you at least wouldn't have to dink around with the triangle button to pick up the gun you want to in a sea of guns, or fudge around with the circle button to snap to the cover you're attempting to snap to. In any case you're probably right and that the game is best played on Normal, but it really just felt like I was playing a bunch of cutscenes with how forgiving it was the couple of times I tried it.

Last of Us adopted TR13's inventory and cover system for the better and I think that's at least telling. Likewise, UC4 adopted TR13/Rise's more involved platforming mechanics. That's flattery and a suggestion from the horse's mouth that Crystal Dynamics were doing something better than what was currently on offer.
 
Apr 18, 2014
6,227
3
430
Rope arrow. You used it to create new ziplines and to pull, swing, or break objects. Uncharted 4 had a few bits where you pulled your rope to break things in a similar manner.

New Tomb Raiders use your equipment to gate the world, and you need certain items to find secret stashes and the game's small tombs.

There was no rope swinging in TR2013.
 

Equanimity

Member
Jun 20, 2015
3,272
0
0
London
Irrelevant as the climbing axe and rope was in TR2013 as well. Actually the grapple has been in the series since 2006 with TR Legend.

Relevant because the reboot didn't have a piton or a rope swinging mechanic.

The grapple has been part of video games for quite some time and it isn't unique to TR.
 

Ricky_R

Member
Dec 28, 2010
11,969
1
0
I meant swinging objects, not yourself, if that's what you mean. Weren't there puzzles where you use the rope to swing a bell or something similar?

All of these games are starting to blend in my mind.

That's how memorable TR games are. ;)
 

Wabba

Member
Sep 4, 2014
1,058
0
0
Having played every Tomb Raider game i really cant see how anybody can put it above Uncharted. In my eyes, UC4 is a league above TR in every way.
 

JayB1920

Member
Sep 25, 2015
389
3
235
Pennsylvania
Relevant because the reboot didn't have a piton or a rope swinging mechanic.

The grapple has been part of video games for quite some time and it isn't unique to TR.

Well the reboot and ROTR doesn't have the piton either. Both TR2013 and ROTR use climbing axes which can only be used on some surfaces just like the pitton only the axes allow for continuous climbing. Only mentioned grapple because you implied ROTR stole the piton and rope swing from UC4 by saying UC4 gameplay was shown first.
 

Gurish

Member
Aug 4, 2013
5,834
4
380
No joke. I can hardly believe I'm here pushing TR's mechanics and exploration over Uncharted 4, but god damn, that's whats happening.

How did it come to this?

I don't know about the new TR but TR 2013's combat certainly wasn't better than U4.

But as you noticed yourself, arguing about mechanic X and which game does it better doesn't matter when at the end the experience is so forgettable like you demonstrated nicely now.

BTW it's not really surprising TR's puzzles are better than Uncharted, it was never a strong aspect in the series, though I think U4's puzzles are the best in the series, they are light but well made, anyway ND aren't amazing at creating puzzles but they do provide an overall package very few in their genre touch, and TR 2013 is certainly not one of those few.
 

texhnolyze

Banned
Aug 13, 2014
17,738
1
475
Indonesia
If anything, the climbing/grappling mechanics in Tomb Raider is more fun because well, it's manual and not automated like in Uncharted. Bows is also the highlight in Tomb Raider, adding more options to stealth and crowd control.
 

NullPointer

Member
May 4, 2006
44,304
3
0
San Francisco
But as you noticed yourself, arguing about mechanic X and which game does it better doesn't matter when at the end the experience is so forgettable like you demonstrate nicely now.
That might be going a little far now. I couldn't tell you every last time I used a wheeled crate in UC4 off the top of my head either, but the game is still memorable. What I remember from RoTR was enjoying myself quite a bit with it for most of it. Can't say the same about UC4, though to be fair both games had their own slogs.

And I didn't enjoy TR2013, so my memory of the details of each puzzle in that game are even fuzzier. Trying to compare and contrast details of TR2013 to RoTR to the Uncharteds, including Uncharted 4 is where things start to blur.
 

Gurish

Member
Aug 4, 2013
5,834
4
380
That might be going a little far now. I couldn't tell you every last time I used a wheeled crate in UC4 off the top of my head either, but the game is still memorable. What I remember from RoTR was enjoying myself quite a bit with it for most of it. Can't say the same about UC4, though to be fair both games had their own slogs.

And I didn't enjoy TR2013, so my memory of the details of each puzzle in that game are even fuzzier. Trying to compare and contrast details of TR2013 to RoTR to the Uncharteds, including Uncharted 4 is where things start to blur.

But I do at least remember stuff that I did and experienced in U4 (and 2), but TR 2013? not so much, it was a fun but a forgettable game.

Don't know about RoTR, didn't play it but by most feedback it's not much better than TR2013, lots think it's worse, so I doubt I won't feel the same with that game as well, I'll probably enjoy it and forget about it, U4 will rank high in my GOTY list (will wait for TLG and Deus Ex before knowing for sure where)
 

dlauv

Member
Apr 6, 2014
3,994
96
455
Texas
Wait...what?

There are a lot of ice-pick wall areas where you tap the X/Square button to grab. You have a lot of air control, and can double jump up most walls. So, X/Square, Jump, Double-jump, X/Square. This can really speed up the game at the risk of messing up (because many aren't straight paths up). It's much harder to do in Rise though, due to the lessened amount of control you're given to your character overall.
 

JayB1920

Member
Sep 25, 2015
389
3
235
Pennsylvania
Wait...what?

Well not manual but maybe he meant you have a lot more moves than simply ledge hopping to make it more varied and make it feel like you are more involved. Wall scrambling, climbing axe walls, grappling out of reach ledges, climbing arrows, and grapple swinging require you to pay a bit more attention since you need to press a button other than jump.
 

Earthanoid

Member
Oct 7, 2013
789
1
0
I don't see how traversal in TR13 is any more "manual" than UC4. The basic climbing mechanics for handholds and ledges are very similar in both games and the ice pick is just like the piton. The only other tool that Lara has that Nate doesn't is the rope arrow, but Lara doesn't have anything like the grapple either and I'd argue the grapple is a lot more dynamic. The level of risk in climbing is the same in both games, albeit they're handled differently. Lara uses detective vision to see where the next handhold is whereas Nate gives you visual cues as to when it's safe to jump.