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LTTP: Tomb Raider 2013 and why I like it better than Uncharted 4

Harmen

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Jul 24, 2014
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First off, godbless Sunhi for those gifs.

Secondly, the game is stunning, and it shits on TR13 visually and presentation wise. But those gifs don't really sell the combat well. I played on hard and if you dangled on the rope that long you are fucked. It's cool but it lacks the variety of TRs combat. The AI allys constantly moving around and not getting caught just takes me out of UCs combat at times.

For all the heavy attention to detail praise UC gets, it's really jarring to see your the NPCs not do shit and brush off an enemy and not get detected. It's also worth noting that before UC4 the stealth in UC was terrible. I need to go back and play TR13 because it's been a while, but I think it'll hold up better than UCs combat overall. Holy shit at UC4s melee combat, best contextual melee system ever. I barely ever saw the same things twice.

I have to disagree on that one, I used the rope plenty on my hard playtrough. Timing is crucial but hard for sure allows you to make some well timed "reckless moves". And if you want to do that all the time because you think it is more fun, why not pick easy mode? There is nothing wrong with it and it can still be a challenge when you take the run n' gun playstyle.

As for the variety in combat, I really don't see how TR013 offers more variety. UC4 manages to blend different playstyles seemlessly. And in every UC after the first one, many shootouts are heavily influenced by the environment they take place in (especially UC3 excels at this), not just in terms of level design.
 

Crossing Eden

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Feb 14, 2014
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You must have a lot of practice with games that involves a lot climbing then, because I died a couple times ascending that clock tower. Certainly "mashing" X didn't work out for me.
Oh I absolutely do. Mashing X just like the rest of the areas absolutely worked. First try.
 

BstnRich

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Sep 1, 2013
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I liked TR 2013 a lot. TR:RoTTR was more great gameplay but the story was forgettable. I would say TR has more depth to their gameplay, however UC4 is just so compelling as a story and as a graphical acheivement.

Also, for what UC4 was graphically and to run as smoothly as it did on a PS4 says a lot. TR:RoTTR did not run well on a lot of mid-high range cards. (R9 390 in my case)

I do want to add that the facial animation in TR:RoTTR was very impressive.

All three games are very worthy of a playthrough.
 

Blinck

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Dec 31, 2012
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I honestly cannot believe you thought the optional tombs in TR were good.

Those had some of the shittiest puzzle design ever.

You want some actual good TR puzzles? Play the previous entries.

The previous Tomb Raiders ( at least the good ones ) have some of the best environmental puzzles and meaningful traversing/platforming ( though it might be frustrating at times due to the controls)
 
Jun 2, 2013
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Not played Rise yet but played both Uncharted 4 and TR 2013 and while TR was decent, for me Uncharted is a much better game.

I was a big fan of the original Tomb Raider games, so seeing TR come back with a massive focus on combat, rather than actual raiding tombs was disappointing. The original games didn't need all the combat to make them great games.

They also made a big deal about Lara as a character and while it starts strong, with her getting injured and freaking out after having to kill someone in self defence, all that suddenly goes out the window, as she turns into a generic action woman, modding weapons and killing wave after wave of mercs like a pro. archaeologist

The fact that Uncharted 4 has some levels with little or no combat and a focus on exploring, made it a better experience for me and the character interaction and story telling is some of the best in any game, along side The Last of Us.

I've hear Rise has a better mix of exploration, so I'm looking forward to playing it more than the last game, even if there is still a lot of combat for a TR game.
 

Gono

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Feb 17, 2015
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I really couldn't get into TR2013 after playing U2 and U3 back to back, back in 2013.

I'll try again sometime this year but U4 was so fucking mind blowing that any Tomb Raider won't be enough.
 

Cave Johnson

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May 21, 2012
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I honestly cannot believe you thought the optional tombs in TR were good.

Those had some of the shittiest puzzle design ever.

You want some actual good TR puzzles? Play the previous entries.

The previous Tomb Raiders ( at least the good ones ) have some of the best environmental puzzles and meaningful traversing/platforming ( though it might be frustrating at times due to the controls)

Puzzles weren't just a challenge, it was a mandatory requirement to finish the level.

BMW, controls are fine in OG TR. I got more heartache playing Uncharted's questionable auto - platforming and that horrendous usage of the O button performing 2 different tasks.
 

Omnistalgic

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Mar 20, 2012
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I liked the gameplay of TR and completed the game on Hard with only a bow and it was great.

Uncharted still blows it out of the water for me.
yup...I can’t play through a ton of games purely for aimless gameplay anymore, the story and pacing in TR got to such a low level it was embarassing. TR IMO copied the formula of Uncharted a bit too much for flattery. So when the story segment ended up so weak, I was very disappointed and couldn’t bother to finish the game.

I did start to get into it with the treasure finding and hidden tombs, and then got a corrupt save bug -_-

I’ve had bad experience with TR, don’t know if I’ll ever get back to it.
 

Doc_Drop

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May 7, 2014
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The voice acting and writing is just awful in TR2013 so on that alone I don't see how it would be better than UC4, but I haven't played UC4 so I can't really comment. I couldn't even get to the 2nd half in TR2013 though
 

Messofanego

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Great OP, The Lamp. Have to agree with all the Uncharted 4 criticisms. Exploration was boring, pacing was just bad where many times I stopped playing the game because of too much downtime and not many satisfying scenarios to look forward to, and platforming along with puzzles were just a big disappointment considering how much they improved with the combat. When I came across the piton, I was like "you've gotta be kidding me". It could easily have deleted 5 chapters and nothing of value would be lost.
 

family_guy

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Mar 17, 2013
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I like both games. Uncharted 4 has better setpieces, combat, and story. Tomb Raider has better exploration and puzzles. Not too hard to believe because that's always been true of the two series and is what makes them different but good experiences.
 

Jawbreaker

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Mar 22, 2013
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The voice acting and writing is just awful in TR2013 so on that alone I don't see how it would be better than UC4, but I haven't played UC4 so I can't really comment. I couldn't even get to the 2nd half in TR2013 though

Yeah, it really is awful. I actually felt a little embarrassed at times (especially during that dreadful scene with Alex) while sitting through the character dialogue. I typically say that the game was really forgettable, but thinking about it now, that would be a lie. I still remember how horrid everything was outside of a few encounters and how satisfying the bow was to use.
 

Doc_Drop

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Yeah, it really is awful. I actually felt a little embarrassed at times (especially during that dreadful scene with Alex) while sitting through the character dialogue. I typically say that the game was really forgettable, but thinking about it now, that would be a lie. I still remember how horrid everything was outside of a few encounters and how satisfying the bow was to use.

Given I'm British I really felt the effect, me and my mate played through an hour or two and were just laughing at how bad it was. The real shame is that I'm not the biggest fan of 3rd person cover shooters so yeah really not a good purchase on my part haha
 

narutomaki04

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Aug 29, 2015
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Can't say I agree op. The only thing that stood out in tomb raider reboot was the bow gameplay. Everything else was forgettable.
 

BruceLeeRoy

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Oct 26, 2006
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Threads like this remind me of when your in the OT and someone creates a topic that says - "Why McDonalds is better than every other burger" I mean I know its an opinion but still seems a bit cray to me.

Uncharted is better than TR in every way to such a degree that it seems almost comical to compare them. For me it would be like comparing Dark Sector to Gears or something. TR2013 had the benefit of going against UC3 which has some serious gameplay issues. Going from TRR to UC4 though is a pretty big gulf in quality and not just in the ways that are obvious such as visuals, presentation and story but the gameplay is so much better. Stealth is better, the open-ended nature of the combat is better, the AI is better. Its all just more fun. Not to mention there is this weird deadzone thing that happens with TR which funny enough reminded me of all the controller issues I had with UC3 before it was patched.

The only thing that I remember really liking about TR2013 was that stinking bow. That bow was so awesome.

Oh I absolutely do. Mashing X just like the rest of the areas absolutely worked. First try.

This definitely works in some areas but I think it really depends on the section. You can't do that for Chapter 3
 

Mar Nosso

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May 19, 2013
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While I love TR2013's gameplay for how satisfying and involving it was, I remember nothing from the story or its characters.

U4's gameplay is more basic, I'll freely admit. Annoying at times even. But I absolutely adored the longer sections of exploration in the game. Getting to know Drake and Elena's house, island hopping around the archipelago, exploring every nook and cranny in Evelyn's mansion... It's just a fucking pleasure! And those moments, while not rewarded enough, I'll also agree, with treasures and/or items that can be used in-game, they have wonderful cut-scenes or dialogue between characters while doing the exploration, that it just pushes the game to another level, emotionally. The writing is fantastic and TR2013 unfortunately gets no where near at all.

It remains to be seen what ROTTR can accomplish in that regard later this on the PS4, but I still enjoyed TR2013 enough that I'm excited for it.

At the end of the day I think U4 was a great end to the Uncharted series and now ND can focus on their better IP (from a gameplay point of view), TLOU, and new IPs as well.
 

Sodding_Gamer

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Nov 13, 2013
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Different strokes for different folks I guess but I hated Tomb Raider (2013) and even Rise of the Tomb Raider I found a chore to play as well.
 

Gurish

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Threads like this remind me of when your in the OT and someone creates a topic that says - "Why McDonalds is better than every other burger" I mean I know its an opinion but still seems a bit cray to me.

Uncharted is better than TR in every way to such a degree that it seems almost comical to compare them. For me it would be like comparing Dark Sector to Gears or something. TR2013 had the benefit of going against UC3 which has some serious gameplay issues. Going from TRR to UC4 though is a pretty big gulf in quality and not just in the ways that are obvious such as visuals, presentation and story but the gameplay is so much better. Stealth is better, the open-ended nature of the combat is better, the AI is better. Its all just more fun. Not to mention there is this weird deadzone thing that happens with TR which funny enough reminded me of all the controller issues I had with UC3 before it was patched.

The only thing that I remember really liking about TR2013 was that stinking bow. That bow was so awesome.



This definitely works in some areas but I think it really depends on the section. You can't do that for Chapter 3

Yea I agree, and even without comparing a certain mechanic, just that the overall experience is so much more memorable and captivating, who the hell thought about TR 2 minutes after he beat the game?

It was a great fun game but the experience I got after beating Uncharted is so much superior it's just crazy someone actually beat Uncharted than played TR and thought TR was a superior experience, I know it's subjective but it still seems crazy to me.
 

schwabdizzle

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Dec 1, 2011
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I am about halfway through Uncharted 4 and I am enjoying it way more than Either of the Tombraiders. Not that they are bad games, but I feel that Naughty Dog does a better job telling a story than Crystal Dynamics did in either of the reboot TRs. Plus, the cast of characters in U4 are just hand down better than TR.
 

TheYanger

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I am about halfway through Uncharted 4 and I am enjoying it way more than Either of the Tombraiders. Not that they are bad games, but I feel that Naughty Dog does a better job telling a story than Crystal Dynamics did in either of the reboot TRs. Plus, the cast of characters in U4 are just hand down better than TR.

Don't think anyone debates those points. The gameplay in UC is pretty shit though.
 

Lys Skygge

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Jun 23, 2014
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Yea I agree, and even without comparing a certain mechanic, just that the overall experience is so much more memorable and captivating, who the hell thought about TR 2 minutes after he beat the game?

It was a great fun game but the experience I got after beating Uncharted is so much superior it's just crazy someone actually beat Uncharted than played TR and thought TR was a superior experience, I know it's subjective but it still seems crazy to me.
Completely agree. I feel Uncharted games leave a lasting impression where 99% of other games are completely forgettable once completed.
 

astroturfing

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May 20, 2009
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Tomb Raider was atrocious imo, the definition of uninspired and generic, with a laughable story.

Uncharted on the other hand has Hollywood-level story/writing with the funniest most clever comedic witty banter ever, in any medium (much better than Seinfeld). also the best gameplay only possible on PS4 by Naughty Gods. visuals leagues ahead of PC (Crytec lol). etc etc. NO CONTEST.
 
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Tomb Raider was atrocious imo, the definition of uninspired and generic, with a laughable story.

Uncharted on the other hand has Hollywood-level story/writing with the funniest most clever comedic witty banter ever, in any medium (much better than Seinfeld). also the best gameplay only possible on PS4 by Naughty Gods. visuals leagues ahead of PC (Crytec lol). etc etc. NO CONTEST.

Uncharted 1-3 maybe(not in any medium though), but Uncharted 4 really isn't that funny or clever in banter. Makes sense for what they were going for though.

Actually nevermind this is clearly a joke post with that PC comment :p
 

Zeuanimals

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Feb 15, 2014
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Uncharted 4 is my favourite game in the series but I don't think it holds a candle to Uncharted 2 as a game.

I enjoyed my time with the former but it's pacing issues can't be ignored.

The game starts halfway through the story (like Uncharted 2), then jumps back in time to when Nate's a kid, then forward in time to when we see the brothers get separated, then we jump forward in time again, then we go back in time once more before starting the adventure proper.

The beginning is an absolute mess and
it doesn't help that you spend half the game in the same location.

There's far too many down moments and it's non-combat systems just aren't deep enough to warrant the screen time they get in Uncharted 4.

I don't want more combat, I want what I'm doing outside the gunfights to be more exciting.

Exploration isn't rewarded either with useless trinkets and empty environments littered throughout.

As an experience, as a send off to one of my favourite characters in gaming, Uncharted 4 left me totally satisfied.

But it's a shallow game and when you don't nail pacing, like Uncharted 2 did, it becomes more and more apparent the longer you play.

The Last of Us is the true successor to the original Uncharted trilogy, it combines the cinematic storytelling that the latter traded on, with deeper, more complex systems Uncharted was never built to have.

You can have feature-rich gameplay with enthralling characters - Metal Gear Solid proved that almost two decades ago.

Uncharted has always relied heavily on the latter but it usually masked it's puddle-deep systems with inventive scenarios, incredible set pieces and a winning personality - and again, it's pacing.

Uncharted 4 doesn't do as good a job of building and maintaining that status quo as Uncharted 2 (or even Uncharted 3 which it heavily riffs off).

As for the Tomb Raider franchise. I adored 2013 and was left slightly cold by Rise of the Tomb Raider (even if it improved on the original in almost every conceivable way).

Tomb Raider has always had better gunplay and it's metroidvania-esque design has always appealed to me more. You're also rewarded for exploring with materials to scavenge, tombs to indulge in and new gear to find.

It's undoubtedly a more varied experience as a result. They are also stunning to look at - Rise of the Tomb Raider is gorgeous.

What you prefer will depend on what you're looking for out of a game - I'm happy they both exist and appreciate what they are - but I hope people look at Uncharted 4 and learn.

Not just from its outstanding tech and character work but from its clunky pacing and barebones systems.

Edit: Just to address the post beneath me. The writing is worse. I wasn't bothered by it in the reboot but the writing in Rise of the Tomb Raider is horrendous.

It's combat is undoubtedly better though, there's loads more options.

You have a Gears of War logo... Which means you're probably a fan of a game that doesn't throw too many mechanics and systems your way. I doubt the Gears games would be better if they had metroidvania style exploration or a crafting system. In fact, I'd even say they'd be worse games.

I don't see why people keep saying Uncharted should add crafting and all of this other stuff. That's not what it's trying to be. Imagine if a large chunk of an Indiana Jones film was Indi looking for things to turn into weapons.
 

Synless

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May 13, 2007
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Outside of the story which I do believe is improved, I thought it was a step back from '13.
Agreed, I thought the puzzles and gameplay were even more simplified. In fact, I thought it was disappointing graphically and from a gameplay perspective.
 

Gurish

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Aug 4, 2013
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Completely agree. I feel Uncharted games leave a lasting impression where 99% of other games are completely forgettable once completed.

Yea it's like I can't imagine someone finishing TR and thinking: "wow that game was INCREDIBLE!! definitely one of the best of this gen and in this genre in general, easily my GOTY!"

Yet I've seen a lot of those comments after U2 (and 4 as well)
I liked TR a lot but I bet that even those who liked it didn't feel like that quote after beating it.

Obviously a lot of people who played U2 or 4 didn't feel that way as well, as there are very few games that are a complete consensus on such level, but a lot did, the Uncharted series has that qualities that can make a lot of people feel like that, TR don't.

That's why U2 and 4 (and 3 to a lesser extent) are among the highest ranked each gen while TR is a 80+, Uncharted is just on a different league overall.
 

JayB1920

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The clock tower climb would like to have a word with you.... you are in hyperbole territory already I think.

Clock Tower was the only interesting area puzzle/platforming wise. The game should have had more areas like that spread throughout.

Agreed, I thought the puzzles and gameplay were even more simplified. In fact, I thought it was disappointing graphically and from a gameplay perspective.

Puzzles were more simplified? I'm not sure about that. Most of the optional Tombs especially Ancient Cistern and Baths of Kitezh were better than anything in the original. The main story maybe a few were easier but it also had some interesting ones like the Flooded Archives, Orrery and the stuff with the Trebuchets at the end. The Baba Yaga DLC Puzzle was pretty good too. My biggest issue with the game is the number of useless collectibles. All the survival caches and coin caches were completely unnecessary.
 

Kevin Shields

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Nov 22, 2012
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TR was sort of bland to me the whole way through and I had to push myself to complete it. WherS Uncharted 4 even with its problems had my jaw drop on several occasions. Tomb Raider just never gave me those moments and exploration and puzzles weren't that exciting even if they were deeper
 
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Clock Tower was the only interesting area puzzle/platforming wise. The game should have had more areas like that spread throughout.

Exactly. If they wanted to push platforming into a bigger role this time around, then they should've at least made it more engaging with segments like the clocktower.
 

Future

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Aug 5, 2004
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Puzzles and exploration is miles ahead in tomb raider. Story and dialogue is miles behind though, and combat is not significantly better

Uncharted for the win
 

Vaga

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Oct 3, 2013
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TR2013 is a joke compared to U4, overall a forgettable experience with atrocious gunplay, laughable story and voice acting.
 

Cave Johnson

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Puzzles and exploration is miles ahead in tomb raider. Story and dialogue is miles behind though, and combat is not significantly better

Uncharted for the win

This has to be a joke, puzzles are equivalent to shape boxes for babies and the exploration is nothing more than retreading thanks to the micro-vania elements. They realized they had limits on the last gen console, they opted to use this design concept to justify monotonous backtracking.
 

MAX PAYMENT

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To me, the games are quite different and can coexist and compliment each other.

Tomb raider is more free form with hub areas and better exploration while uncharted is a highly scripted, almost on-rails, type of extremely cinematic experience.

Playing and loving them both (u4 and both new TR's) they easily coexist and comparing them as a "this one is better because..." comes across as really dumb to me.
 

JayB1920

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This has to be a joke, puzzles are equivalent to shape boxes for babies and the exploration is nothing more than retreading thanks to the micro-vania elements. They realized they had limits on the last gen console, they opted to use this design concept to justify monotonous backtracking.

Opinions? I enjoyed the puzzles and the lite vania exploration. Felt more rewarding then exploring in UC at least. I also didn't feel all the puzzles were that simple. A few of the tombs were slightly clever at least. That's more than I can say about any in UC4 which were a step back in puzzle design even compared to the previous games.
 
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Hated Tomb Raider combat, feels really copycat, people kept saying the bow was good but nothing feels as good as TLOU bow.

Story and characters were atrocious in both Tomb Raider games, it's really time to retire the series.
 

Demo85

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Uncharted 4 has better characters and dialog (and performance capture) but Tomb Raider is better every where else
 

davitpr

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I was disappointed with UC4 as well. THe game is beautiful but so much potential lost. Their formula just doesn't work anymore. Every game is the same and I'm tired of it. I'll definitely play Tomb Raider now and hope to never see an uncharted game ever again.
 

NullPointer

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I preferred Rise of the Tomb Raider to Uncharted 4, but not Tomb Raider 2013.

RoTR removed or minimized a lot of the problems in TR2013, though neither of the games is a good Tomb Raider in the classical mold.

RoTR has open world bloat like nonsense collectibles and XP and maps full of icons you don't need, but besides all of that there's still more to *play* and solve and explore than in Uncharted 4. After finding the treasures in new Tomb Raiders, collecting random gleams in Uncharted felt old and busted.
 

JayB1920

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Hated Tomb Raider combat, feels really copycat, people kept saying the bow was good but nothing feels as good as TLOU bow.

Story and characters were atrocious in both Tomb Raider games, it's really time to retire the series.

Retire a series because story and characters are not good? I can't see myself trudging through Uncharted 4 again anytime soon regardless of story/writng/character quality while I still have fun replaying the TR games.
 

Fredrik

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IMO, the open areas, fast travel and bow is the only things Tomb Raider does better, U4 is better at everything else and the great sections in U4 is top GOTY material. Rise of the Tomb Raider is better than 2013 though, but U4 is still ahead IMO. But I 100-percented RotTR and I doubt that I'll do that with Uncharted 4, unless there is a replay old areas option available when beating the game, so I still agree that there are some things ND could learn from CD.
 

JayB1920

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IMO, the open areas, fast travel and bow is the only things Tomb Raider does better, U4 is better at everything else and the great sections in U4 is top GOTY material. Rise of the Tomb Raider is better than 2013 though, but U4 is still ahead IMO. But I 100-percented RotTR and I doubt that I'll do that with Uncharted 4, unless there is a replay old areas option available when beating the game, so I still agree that there are some things ND could learn from CD.

You didn't feel puzzle design was better? On another note Id love for CD to do a TR Anniversary style game with the modern controls, combat and engine with levels like the prophets tombs, abandoned mines and flooded archives being the norm rather than the exception.
 

Fredrik

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You didn't feel puzzle design was better? On another note Id love for CD to do a TR Anniersary style game with the modern controls/ combat and engine.
I don't even remember the puzzles in TR2013 tbh :/ But some puzzles in U4 is great fun, the hidden in plain sight puzzle for example. Stealth mechanics are better too, which is the way I'm playing it. There are far too much hinting going on in U4 though and the levels are usually extremely linear except for a few surprisingly open areas, still Love the game a ton though, will probably be my GOTY.
 

CopingJenkins

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I am also heavily in the uncharted camp on this one.

Story and characters were completely forgettable in Tomb Raider. I never finished the game because I just didn't care anymore.

Secondly, while the exploration was better in tomb raider, I never even felt the drive to explore in uncharted due to the engaging story. I want to know what happens next, not scour every corner. I would typically marvel at the amazing view for a second or two and then move on.

From a gameplay standpoint I also found all the uncharted games to be a lot more engaging. There is a reason why uncharted 2, 3, and now 4 had/have thriving multiplayer elements with long legs, whereas they simply took it out in ROTTR.

More is not necessarily better as evidenced by uncharted 2's very simple, very engaging multiplayer.
 

Ralemont

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Mar 26, 2014
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Nice OP. I haven't played UC4, so I don't have a frame of reference to compare, but I think a lot of your TR2013 praise works in isolation regardless of comparisons. I had the exact same feeling whenever I got something new in Tomb Raider, where I was excited to backtrack and see what new hidden goodies I could find because of the layered exploration/gear progression. Also, the fucking bow is godly.
 

ghibli99

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I've always said that if the TR games can elevate the storytelling, presentation, and acting to the levels seen in UC, it would be superior in every way. Easier said than done, I know, but the gameplay in UC just doesn't do much for me. I 100%'d both TR games, just because they were so much more fun to actually *play*, and I love the crafting/progression system and area layering with new skills/tools. There just isn't any of that in UC, which is why I consider them classic experiences, but not to go back into to do more than just seeing the story again.