Lys Skygge
Member
I'd even say that the rope arrow is more automated than Uncharteds grapple. I do wish the piton in Uncharted was introduced earlier in the game though. It did add a layer of depth in traversal.
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LTTP: Tomb Raider 2013 and why I like it better than Uncharted 4
- Thread starter The Lamp
- Start date
Keihart
Member
Uncharted's combat since 2 has always been something special for me, i'll never understand people claiming otherwise and it makes even less sense when comparing it to Tomb Raider.
Uncharted's combat gives you so much mobility and at the same time mixes melee, run and gun and long range fire fights in a way very few other tps achieve. I would say that i only compare it to Vanquish in how unique and fun can be.
Although if i would compare Tomb Raider to other game it would be to TLoU, because is more of a survival type of game than a pulp action one, and even then i find TLoU to be the better game.
Uncharted's combat gives you so much mobility and at the same time mixes melee, run and gun and long range fire fights in a way very few other tps achieve. I would say that i only compare it to Vanquish in how unique and fun can be.
Although if i would compare Tomb Raider to other game it would be to TLoU, because is more of a survival type of game than a pulp action one, and even then i find TLoU to be the better game.
I've beaten TR 2013 and thought the gameplay was better than Uncharted 1 because of the shooting gunplay, melee combats, and upgrade system. TR 2013 also got big misses from me due to the awful poorly placed QTE's, and the dodging evading and cover system felt wonky. There also wasn't enough optional tombs.
With that said, Uncharted 4 utterly destroys TR 2013 and most other TPS in gameplay and it's not even close. If you're not enjoying the gameplay for any reason, you're either on too high of a difficulty, not being creative enough or BOTH.
When you throw a nade out stealth and really get moving around and mixing quick multiple head shots to melee moves, to swining rope kills to finish up the last enemies, the entire sequence looks and feels incredible. The gunplay is near perfect. The melee is dynamic. I've ran into enemies and knocked them against the wall to running drop kicks and double take downs with NPCs coming out of no where. The melee was a big step from both Uncharted 2 and 3, through the influence of TLoU. It just works really well. If Uncharted 4 had better pacing and they cut down on the platforming, climbing, and some parts of the story that dragged, I honestly think more people would tie this with Uncharted 2 as the best Uncharted game. The main complaint for those who loved the combat is that there wasn't enough. I think that there was enough, but the game could have been cut down a bit to be more tight and cohesive and another big set piece that combines all the mechanics would have been perfect.
Going back to the gameplay, some of the clips that I've recorded are so perfectly executed that it's actually fun to rewatch. I can't say that about many games.
With that said, Uncharted 4 utterly destroys TR 2013 and most other TPS in gameplay and it's not even close. If you're not enjoying the gameplay for any reason, you're either on too high of a difficulty, not being creative enough or BOTH.
When you throw a nade out stealth and really get moving around and mixing quick multiple head shots to melee moves, to swining rope kills to finish up the last enemies, the entire sequence looks and feels incredible. The gunplay is near perfect. The melee is dynamic. I've ran into enemies and knocked them against the wall to running drop kicks and double take downs with NPCs coming out of no where. The melee was a big step from both Uncharted 2 and 3, through the influence of TLoU. It just works really well. If Uncharted 4 had better pacing and they cut down on the platforming, climbing, and some parts of the story that dragged, I honestly think more people would tie this with Uncharted 2 as the best Uncharted game. The main complaint for those who loved the combat is that there wasn't enough. I think that there was enough, but the game could have been cut down a bit to be more tight and cohesive and another big set piece that combines all the mechanics would have been perfect.
Going back to the gameplay, some of the clips that I've recorded are so perfectly executed that it's actually fun to rewatch. I can't say that about many games.
VeryNicePerson
Member
ConfusedGamer
Member
Yeah and it's still okay for me to point out that their prioritization resulted in mediocre gameplay depth/mechanics for traversal and exploration (for reasons evidenced ad nauseum), just like I admit Tomb Raider's story is mediocre. I totally understand what Naughty Dog intended to do with U4, I am still criticizing the end result because it stands as it is.
Right, but they still attempted to design open level traversal, puzzles, and new items enhancing gameplay (rope and piton), and that can be directly compared to how TR did it their way.
They're both linear games and they don't need crafting or XP/leveling to be linear or to even service my criticism. I'm honestly not passionate about the mechanic of leveling up so much as my items expanding in use (arrows becoming fire arrows and rope arrows).
Comes off like: "Stop comparing video games! They're not exactly the same thing so you can't just criticize, compare, and contrast them like any 2nd grader would on a book report!"
You're right about the vision but considering I never used it, I don't complain about optional features I don't use.
Yeah, I know, I said that in the OP.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
I'm actually playing through TR now for the first time. I'm playing it after Uncharted 4. Kind of hard to play after that game honestly.
Not a huge fan of either series and I haven't played Rise or 4 although I probably will eventually. The guns/shooting in 2013 definitely felt a lot tighter for me than the Uncharted games and I liked the feel it had of one continuous adventure with the traversal always through the player instead of the game taking you. The metroidvania stuff definitely wore thin after you realize the items are pointless and so are the skills mostly.
I'm getting really close to the end of UC4 (I assume) and I was just thinking that we are 4 games in (5 with Vita) and yet the treasures are so useless. No descriptions or backstory or anything? It can all be optional but I LOVE reading stuff like that.
Otherwise, I love both TReboot and UC. I'll take as many of both as I can get. I think the back and forth on how one sucks and the other doesn't is exhausting so I'll just play and enjoy them for as long as they're made (I hope).
Otherwise, I love both TReboot and UC. I'll take as many of both as I can get. I think the back and forth on how one sucks and the other doesn't is exhausting so I'll just play and enjoy them for as long as they're made (I hope).
Zeuanimals
Member
He's not saying you can't compare them, he's just saying you're comparing aspects of one that the other isn't even trying to do and claiming it's better because of it. Would you say that 2001: A Space Odyssey is a better film than Birdman because Hal is a creepy, menacing character and Birdman lacks one? That's essentially your complaint.
And personally, I didn't find the metroidvania aspects of Tomb Raider to elevate the game much. Adding more ways of getting around doesn't do anything for me if I have no desire of going around a bland world to experience a terrible story. I also just generally didn't care about exploring because I didn't care what was going on. The stakes were zero for me.
Primethius
Banned
I don't really agree with any of this. But not even as a reference to UC4.
I think TR 2013 is pretty medicore game all around whose combat scenarios, set pieces, story and levels just fail to impress.
The combat in particular fails to find it's own identity until the last few combat scenarios. It was just a snooze all around. And the bow sucked.
As someone who currently only owns a gaming PC and PS4, ROTR being timed exclusive got a good "whatever" out of me. The game just wasn't memorable in the least. I'd rather replay UC1 over TR 2013 and I really, really dislike UC1.
I think TR 2013 is pretty medicore game all around whose combat scenarios, set pieces, story and levels just fail to impress.
The combat in particular fails to find it's own identity until the last few combat scenarios. It was just a snooze all around. And the bow sucked.
As someone who currently only owns a gaming PC and PS4, ROTR being timed exclusive got a good "whatever" out of me. The game just wasn't memorable in the least. I'd rather replay UC1 over TR 2013 and I really, really dislike UC1.
Yeah and that's ridiculous. The other doesn't have to try to do it for me to like or dislike it or for me to think the game would have been better if it tried elements from other certain games. Uncharted 4 tried a lot of things the previous games didn't, and I liked and disliked various aspects of that for several reasons, and I'm not about to say "well that was their vision so I guess I can't criticize!" Its also ridiculous because Uncharted 4 was trying to introduce new gameplay items to enhance traversal and puzzles, but I think Tomb Raider fleshed it out better.
Fair enough, but the mechanic still adds more to gameplay (it would have been worse if it didn't have it at all) and Tomb Raider implemented such a mechanic better than Uncharted 4, in spite of the mediocre art design of the levels and the mediocre story. U4 could have implanted the aspect better (it tried, but the implementation of the piton for example was absolutely pointless). That's my point.
RespectThySole
Member
Well, that's just silly. UC4 and TR are as close as it gets for two games that aren't apart of the same franchise. They have plenty of similar elements and the OP can compare them if he feels UC4's implementations are inferior. He makes some great points and while personally I don't agree that TR is better than UC4, I can definitely see why he feels that way. Great post, The Lamp.
potatohead
Member
I... liked the piton... 
I wish they used it more actually.
The last thing I am thinking of in regards to UC4 is "more" of anything. I didn't ever feel like I wanted a XP progression system at all. Like.... it's just so at odds with the design philosophy of the game I can't even.....
More is not always "better." It's just preference. This is a clear case of different strokes for different folks imo (the whole thread, not just the piton stuff).
Honestly I'd rather compare Binary Domain to TR2013 and ROTR. Both games are TPS action and have XP progression systems. And I prefer Binary Domain honestly...
I wish they used it more actually.
The last thing I am thinking of in regards to UC4 is "more" of anything. I didn't ever feel like I wanted a XP progression system at all. Like.... it's just so at odds with the design philosophy of the game I can't even.....
More is not always "better." It's just preference. This is a clear case of different strokes for different folks imo (the whole thread, not just the piton stuff).
Honestly I'd rather compare Binary Domain to TR2013 and ROTR. Both games are TPS action and have XP progression systems. And I prefer Binary Domain honestly...
UC1? Why u do dis? Nooooooo
Mega Caprison
Member
what ever you say, buddy
KinofChaos
Banned
I agree with almost everything here, I found modern TR to be a snoozefest that was trying to be uncharted but devoid of anything that made UC great.
Gotta love that the OP wrote so many words to articulate his thoughts and the he gets this kind of answers
Kssio_Aug
Member
Havent playerd RoTR or Uncharted 4. But have beaten TR13 and any previous Uncharted.
In terms of gameplay and exploration, indeed TR is a superior game. It's pretty damn good! Unfortunately TR characters and story are really bad imo, and in those aspect Uncharted wins with hands tied!
That said, I can't tell exactly which was the better game. But if TR 2013 had better characters it could have turned out much more enjoyable!
In terms of gameplay and exploration, indeed TR is a superior game. It's pretty damn good! Unfortunately TR characters and story are really bad imo, and in those aspect Uncharted wins with hands tied!
That said, I can't tell exactly which was the better game. But if TR 2013 had better characters it could have turned out much more enjoyable!
KinofChaos
Banned
Disagree, don't understand how people say this, TR's combat scenarios and set pieces are several tiers below UC games imo. But to each their own. UC also has pretty good Multi-player, TR does not.
Primethius
Banned
I... liked the piton...
I wish they used it more actually.
The last thing I am thinking of in regards to UC4 is "more" of anything. I didn't ever feel like I wanted a XP progression system at all. Like.... it's just so at odds with the design philosophy of the game I can't even.....
More is not always "better." It's just preference. This is a clear case of different strokes for different folks imo (the whole thread, not just the piton stuff).
Honestly I'd rather compare Binary Domain to TR2013 and ROTR. Both games are TPS action and have XP progression systems. And I prefer Binary Domain honestly...
UC1? Why u do dis? Nooooooo
By dislike, I mean that I find UC1 largely medicore and boring. I played the series late (after TLOU so that shaped a lot of how I see the games).
I played TR 2013 after UC1-3. And the entire time I was thinking to myself, "what a cheap rip-off."
There's honestly very few things I'd say TR2013 does better then the original UC trilogy, let alone UC4.
It's filled with all these things, some really useless and it executes on them so poorly. The combat in particular was a huge missed boat. It kind of came on to its own with the enemies near the end that you had to dodge, but those were just a couple of encounters.
Everything else was just blah. Terrible package all around. Felt like a game without a soul or a vision. Which I can say atleast UC1 had.
Zeuanimals
Member
I was talking more about leveling up and crafting, which I should have talked about in a reply to someone else since that's not what The Lamp is talking about as he's talking about traversal options. That was my fault.
Uncharted might have been better if it had more traversal options, but the various car and environmental puzzles filled whatever void there was, at least for me. Honestly, just a bit less traversal would have been better for me since I don't generally enjoy it too much in any games. I can at least enjoy it in Uncharted if it's part of a set piece, both large and small. But other than that, no fun factor which is weird because this is something Uncharted messes with. You don't have any good incentive to scour an area for stuff like you do in other games unless you want some useless collectibles, which means I can just go forward, but there's so many obstacles going forward. These last bits are just my personal problems as I haven't enjoyed platforming in any games since I was a kid.
MiamiWesker
Member
That first post is fantastic. I don't agree on everything but I appreciate how in depth you go to explain your point. Plus you have a great grasp of gameplay and game design and what works and what doesn't. Extremely well done argument. So much better than people just saying U4 is a masterpiece! Why? Story? Bah.
Personally I do like U4 more than both TR games but most of what you say is true. U4 had bad pacing, story is the focus over action which is a shame because the action is amazing. The story telling is great but not a substitute for the action setpieces. That said the action is improved to the point where it feels like one of the best action games ever.
TR does do exploration, puzzles, environment design all way better than Uncharted. I love the optional tombs so much, I think the whole game should be that. But I didn't care for the collectathon like nature of the exploration, it feels like a Ubisoft game. Also the action just isn't as good as uncharted, the setpieces are shallow in comparison. The highs of U4 are so much higher than TR.
I love action, when I play U4 and got into those action segments I felt like I was playing something special, an all time great game. Nothing TR did felt like an all time great mechanic, it's a great collection of very well done elements but it doesn't do any one thing the best.
So because of that I will take the game that does its one great thing nearly better than anyone ever has.
Personally I do like U4 more than both TR games but most of what you say is true. U4 had bad pacing, story is the focus over action which is a shame because the action is amazing. The story telling is great but not a substitute for the action setpieces. That said the action is improved to the point where it feels like one of the best action games ever.
TR does do exploration, puzzles, environment design all way better than Uncharted. I love the optional tombs so much, I think the whole game should be that. But I didn't care for the collectathon like nature of the exploration, it feels like a Ubisoft game. Also the action just isn't as good as uncharted, the setpieces are shallow in comparison. The highs of U4 are so much higher than TR.
I love action, when I play U4 and got into those action segments I felt like I was playing something special, an all time great game. Nothing TR did felt like an all time great mechanic, it's a great collection of very well done elements but it doesn't do any one thing the best.
So because of that I will take the game that does its one great thing nearly better than anyone ever has.
The actual gameplay mechanics and controls are arguably better. Traversal, exploring, puzzle solving, gunplay and cover system feel better to me even though the combat scenarios, level design and set pieces are worse if that makes sense.
potatohead
Member
Oh man thank you ^^
I always get worried about these threads because it feels like almost no one has played classic and 6th gen TR. They had whole levels of huge scale that were just awesome puzzles and platforming the entire way through.
Even the gym area in Tomb Raider Legend is amazing. Probably the best action-adventure platforming in the entire game, series, and even of all similar action games, and it takes place in a single room!
That's fine, nice explanation, I was just messing with you no worries
I am just a whore for UC1, don't mind me XD
Short, good post IMO. The collectibles in UC are indeed pointless (besides getting you trophies), whereas they have descriptions and in many cases additional things to find on them in TR w/ accompanying VO. The most important point, though, is what you said about being able to enjoy both games. It's crazy to me that someone could see UC4 as this perfect thing that can do no wrong and in the same breath call RotTR garbage. Objectively, it simply doesn't add up.
Oh man thank you ^^
I always get worried about these threads because it feels like almost no one has played classic and 6th gen TR. They had whole levels of huge scale that were just awesome puzzles and platforming the entire way through.
Even the gym area in Tomb Raider Legend is amazing. Probably the best action-adventure platforming in the entire game, series, and even of all similar action games, and it takes place in a single room!
That's fine, nice explanation, I was just messing with you no worries
I am just a whore for UC1, don't mind me XD
I really wish CD would go back to the LAU design with the Reboots engine and controls. Underworld and Anniversary especially had some fantastic level design and puzzles. The Original PS1 games are still the best but CD has shown themselves to be capable of making a puzzle/platforming based game that would stand out from other action/adventure games. They just need to switch their focus. ROTR was a small step in the right direction but the majority of the game needs to consist of areas like the prophets tomb, abandoned mines, and flooded archives while making the puzzes a bit more involved. All of the optional tombs could have very easily be worked into the level design so that they were on the critical path as well.
The 'exploration' in TR2013 was SO DAMN BORING! I never understood the praise it got for being 'open/semi open'. Oh you see that cliff? You can't go there until u find a rope first so you have to revisit the same fking places over and over again. See those trees, you can't do it now but later you can go up to them and find skulls and shit to collect..so cool!
Don't even get me started on the story, characters, and character development on TR. Absolute garbage tier.
UC4 shits on it from great heights sorry. It's not even close. Gameplay, story, characters, character development, set pieces are all way way better.
ps: This is even without considering what a joke the MP in TR2013 was/is compared to Uncharted MP
Don't even get me started on the story, characters, and character development on TR. Absolute garbage tier.
UC4 shits on it from great heights sorry. It's not even close. Gameplay, story, characters, character development, set pieces are all way way better.
ps: This is even without considering what a joke the MP in TR2013 was/is compared to Uncharted MP
Gameplay I can see people liking more. The gameplay mechanics and controls are arguably better. The traversal, gunplay and cover system feel better to me even though the combat scenarios, level design and set pieces are worse.
TheKastorian
Member
Melee combat and shooting in Uncharted 4 feels perfect. Don't know many third person games that come close, and Tomb Raider is definitely not one of them.
KinofChaos
Banned
The mechanics and controls in UC4 are better then any TR game imo. Cover system? Not sure what you mean UC's is about as good as third person cover systems gets, TR certainly is not any better , unless you can explain that?
I preferred the auto cover system in the TR games or TLOU rather than sticky cover. Maybe that is just me though. UC4 did feel better than the previous 3 games for sure. Gunplay in both TR and UC4 feel great to me so hard to compare. Traversal still feels better in TR though imo but maybe that is because there is a lot more variety in that regard.
potatohead
Member
Totally agree, that was real platforming, I honestly think the greatest height of action adventure platforming. When people say new games are coming close I am so damn skeptical now, because it's not even close to what TR was doing in 6th and early 7th gen lol. Even Legend though, not just Anniversary and Underworld..... this is the area I was talking about from Legend.
This single platforming area is more complex than any platforming in any of the following Tomb Raider games. And the game is 10 years old now! Lol! When people start saying "oh the platforming is so good in ROTR and TR2013", I mean yea, it's OK, but it's absolutely nothing compared to where CD has come from.
And nu-TR doesn't even come close to this. Like these games were "real" platforming. The stuff we have now in either series doesn't even compare to what we had in Legend/Underworld/Anniversary..... I wish they would use what they already clearly know about, incredible platforming, and combine it what they already have in nu-TR.
Design by committee is well and good, fine fine.... OK with crafting, sure, XP progressions, collectibles, etc. etc, and cribbing Uncharted "drama" and focus on shooting is one thing.... fine, go ahead. But why they had to give up the identity and soul and best component of TR as a series entirely..... that is what I don't understand. This is the one single element that can separate TR from all its competition: truly good platforming
These games were the real evolution of TR to me. Just my opinion. It grates me so much when people claim things about this series about platforming without understanding it's roots enough IMO.
It's quite easy to snap to cover that you didn't intend to, which can be frustrating in a pinch. It is also bound to the dodge button. This leads to clunk. TR13's is like TLoU.
I'm clearly like you, it feels way more natural. Plus in Uncharted 4 the same button does a dodge and a cover, I died a couple of times because of that and I haven't finished the game yet.
KinofChaos
Banned
Auto cover often goes to cover when you don't want it to, so agree to disagree I guess. Either way the differences are slight, one is not really better then the other, just different implementations. The best TPS games don;t use auto cover for a reason, like Gears.
Zeuanimals
Member
I don't remember how it works in Tomb Raider buy it worked in TLOU since there was no roll button. Circle let you crouch, and if you crouch behind cover, you're technically in cover. Was it the same in TR?
I just finished TR2013 maybe a week ago and thought it was really boring and simple. My favorite section was probably geothermal caverns through the burning pagodas. There was a sense of urgency there lacking in the rest of the game. Conceptually I thought the story was fine, but it was not well told, and Lara seemed especially dense not to have figured out the mystery until the end game. The core gameplay was not very interesting, and reused the same puzzle elements over and over. The optional trinkets were some of the worst checklist fodder I've seen. I did not enjoy it. It looked great though.
Yeah that area was great. They also need to go back to giant level spanning puzzles like these Thailand, Mexico, and Sanctuary of the Scion.
potatohead
Member
Yeah that area was great. They also need to go back to giant level spanning puzzles like these Thailand, Mexico, and Sanctuary of the Scion.
These are so good.
The two Underworld ones you post too also. So massive. Even the part where you have the Bike before the second picture, such a huge scale and awesome puzzle. It really gave the sense of exploration in a foreign world + ability to solve the puzzle on your own, it didn't even really push you towards the solution, but it meant that finding that solution felt like a real adventure.
Everything about these games were amazing and yet people rejected them because the focus wasn't on shooting. Such a damn shame.
And I'm also still super salty that we never got the TR Underworld DLC except on 360 so I never got to play it yet
Fair enough. I guess I find it easier to correct when I go into the wrong cover without stick cover.
These are so good.
The two Underworld ones you post too also. So massive. Even the part where you have the Bike before the second picture, such a huge scale and awesome puzzle. It really gave the sense of exploration in a foreign world + ability to solve the puzzle on your own, it didn't even really push you towards the solution, but it meant that finding that solution felt like a real adventure.
Everything about these games were amazing and yet people rejected them because the focus wasn't on shooting. Such a damn shame.
And I'm also still super salty that we never got the TR Underworld DLC except on 360 so I never got to play it yet
Yeah St Francis Folly, Mexico, and Thailand are probably the best level spanning, massive scale, multi tier puzzle/platforming areas in action adventure gaming. You had to explore and figure out the different elements and areas on your own. The puzzles in TR2013 and ROTR are all contained in a single area and relatively straightforward in comparison. Flooded Archives in ROTR was their best attempt recently though but it still pales to what came before. Shame about the DLC. The first one pretty good but I didn't care for the second. Still not missing anything critical.
potatohead
Member
The cover systems and environments are much simpler in games like Gears and Binary Domain. Like those games literally just throw long blocks in front of you every chance they get.
And I don't mind that, that's part of why they are fun and it lends to the gameplay systems in both of those games.
The environments are not nearly as complex or varied, so there's far less room for error in the cover system just based on that alone. The gameplay areas in BD and Gears are pretty much for the most part flat corridor areas, or flat courtyard areas.
UC4 still has grip issues occasionally when you try to do it really fast to get out of a near-death situation, but it's so much more reduced from UC trilogy also.
It just made me sad because when I finished Underworld it just felt like it ended so abruptly. But then a sign of a great game is one that leaves you wanting more too
I wish there was hope for the DLC to come to PC but seems like no
And I don't mind that, that's part of why they are fun and it lends to the gameplay systems in both of those games.
The environments are not nearly as complex or varied, so there's far less room for error in the cover system just based on that alone. The gameplay areas in BD and Gears are pretty much for the most part flat corridor areas, or flat courtyard areas.
UC4 still has grip issues occasionally when you try to do it really fast to get out of a near-death situation, but it's so much more reduced from UC trilogy also.
That's good to hear.
It just made me sad because when I finished Underworld it just felt like it ended so abruptly. But then a sign of a great game is one that leaves you wanting more too
I wish there was hope for the DLC to come to PC but seems like no
To me as an older gamer the TR reboots fail purely on the fact they are just so much inferior than the games they tried to reboot. When I hear positive things about them they are largely the things that the pre-boot games excelled at - its very telling when you look at the things RoTR tried to address over TR 2013...
Just amazing how superficial they are as games considering the source material, its largely not something you can place at Uncharteds feet as there very little I would attribute to TR as opposed to Indiana Jones...
ps3ud0 8)
Just amazing how superficial they are as games considering the source material, its largely not something you can place at Uncharteds feet as there very little I would attribute to TR as opposed to Indiana Jones...
ps3ud0 8)