Support NeoGAF

[bilderberg]

This isn't going to be a "controllers are better than m/kb" argument. In fact, when it comes to modern game design, I think m/kb(mouse specifically) sort of breaks the game by being too good. Games today are just designed around the abilities and limitations of a controller. Destiny 2 is a good example. Character models are large, they have pretty slow and predictable movement patterns, headshot hitboxes are bigger than a human size head, etc. Playing Destiny 2 with a m/kb feels more like whack a mole than the strategic back and forth sandbox Bungie are probably hoping for. All stats being equal, there's really no reason not to use the hand cannon for just about everything. It's just too easy to get headshots. I'll switch over to m/kb for pvp because you have to when everyone else is using a m/kb, but pve is just more fun and balanced around a controller I feel.

Recently playing through the Ghost Recon Breakpoint beta, I'm in a scenario where i'm coming up on a squad of guys. The game obviously wants me to feel some tension. I'm being told to just stealth on by and avoid detection, they're all moving in around me, wow this should be pretty suspenseful! Instead, I just head shot the whole squad one by one, John Wick style, before any one of them even knows what's going on. I never would have been able to do that so easily with a controller.

There's few games I feel work better with m/kb. Doom and Wolfenstien being a few, but for just about everything else, I don't feel hampered using a controller. These games are built and balanced with controllers in mind. Now you could say "just put the difficulty up" but that's not a good solution. My idea of a good challenge isn't to just make the player's weapon's shit and give the enemy a.i. aim bot levels of reaction speed and accuracy. The "lol using a controller" argument made sense when trying to play quake or unreal on consoles, but if you can't use a controller for today's games than you're just shit. It's not the controllers fault.

 

[Soltype]

Personally, I think people who play shooters on controllers have just trained themselves to eat shit. having bad controls doesn't make the game difficult, just hard to play.

 

[bilderberg]

Personally, I think people who play shooters on controllers have just trained themselves to eat shit. having bad controls doesn't make the game difficult, just hard to play.

few fps's post halo are hard to play on a controller. You're just bad. FPS's today are designed around a controller and using a mouse is breaking the game.

 

[Vawn]

I'd be a real life war hero if I could use m/kb controls.

 

[ZenTheShogun]

Hard to play with a controller? No. Fun to play with a controller? No.

I do agree that games are too easy with a M/KB setup though. Playing through WWII from the Humble Monthly and its stupidly easy to grab the Karak and just HS everyone.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Stupidest thread of 2019? Certainly in the running, I'd say.

Personally, I think people who play shooters on controllers have just trained themselves to eat shit. having bad controls doesn't make the game difficult, just hard to play.

And done.

 

[bilderberg]

Stupidest thread of 2019? Certainly in the running, I'd say.



And done.

great counter argument. Here's another example. Play Gears and pick up the longshot, it's essentially easy mode regardless of the difficulty. You can just sit back from across the level and easily pick off any enemy because they always expose even a little part of their head from behind cover. They're barely moving, they're just sitting behind cover, and entire areas can be easily cleared just from picking off heads. Games designed around controllers just aren't fun or challenging with a mouse.

Or Borderlands as well. Use a sniper rifle and you're never going to miss unless you're just awful. There's hardly any scope sway, enemies move just a few steps and then stop to fire making it extremely easy to get headshots. All of these concessions are primarily because it's designed around a controller and when you use a mouse it breaks the game. Am i happy about it? No, but it is what it is.

 

[Fuz]

Stupidest opinion of the decade.

 

[bilderberg]

Stupidest opinion of the decade.

And none of you people are making any points. Just "hurr durr stupid." Are you actually going to argue that a majority of modern games aren't designed around using a controller? This isn't an "anti m/kb" argument, it's a game design argument more than anything. I ultimately prefer to use m/kb, but not at the expense of breaking the game. Doom for example is great with m/kb because it's about moving fast and shooting mobile enemies. It's not a game where you're just prioritizing head shots and picking off enemies from afar that hardly ever move.

 

[BlackTron]

Personally, I think people who play shooters on controllers have just trained themselves to eat shit.

I love you.

 

[J3nga]

Personally I think having hands makes it playing games way too easy in 2019 on both k/m and controllers. Hardcore gamers should go for the feet controls IMO.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

It just doesn't work that well with a controller, fps games and rts are just better that way no matter what the intent of the developers is.

For RTS games I could imagine a fix if they made proper use of the giroscope in the PS4 controller, it's surprisingly precise and fast (press r3 + l3 to activate it in the ps4 keyboard you'll know what I am talking about).

I for one, say good riddance, I don't have much against him. except that he ruined every playstation Event since he took over. he took all of the excitement out of E3, and shut down most other events. thats no fun.

I say original atari 2600 controller or die! Everything is too easy with modern input types!

 

[Kabelly]

People think they're good with all that aim assist.

Edit: shooting games are too easy on console because they have to compensate for how bad sticks are. so yes you're technically right. Doesn't make it any better.

 

[McRazzle]

Agree OP

 

[Negotiator]

Controller is fine, as long as it offers gyro aiming.

 

[DESTROYA]

Still prefer gaming with a controller even though I admit KB are superior.
I like to sit back and relax on the couch when gaming and doing that with KB is hard in my case. I’m not a competitive gamer so I game for the experience not to rack up kill counts.

 

[bilderberg]

People think they're good with all that aim assist.

Do you think you're good when modern shooter design is the equivalent of clicking a desktop icon? If you can point and click on an enemy in Diablo, you posses 90% of the skill needed to play fps's with a mouse. Don't think so high and mighty of yourself. Most shooters allow you to turn off auto aim, which isn't much of an issue now a days because enemies are either sitting behind chest high walls or standing still long enough to give you plenty of time to line up head shots. If you're still having a hard time using a controller playing today's shooters the issue is with you.

 

[Kabelly]

Do you think you're good when modern shooter design is the equivalent of clicking a desktop icon? If you can point and click on an enemy in Diablo, you posses 90% of the skill needed to play fps's with a mouse. Don't think so high and mighty of yourself. Most shooters allow you to turn off auto aim, which isn't much of an issue now a days because enemies are either sitting behind chest high walls or standing still long enough to give you plenty of time to line up head shots.

And again, enemies are designed that way because stick aim just cannot keep up with anything faster than that. Now if you're playing against actual human players you have to deal with unpredictable movement and your aim at the same time and the differences you see on a console shooters vs. the pc counterpart can be huge.

 

[Kabelly]

Let's start with aim assist in arguably the first popular dual analog game, Halo. Here's what Halo's developers had to say to Steve Haske in an excellent interview for Waypoint:

There’s a lot of code in Halo that interprets what you’re doing—how fast did you move there, what are you looking at? If it’s an enemy, we can assume that when you slow down, you’re trying to aim. So there are pages and pages that interpret the input that comes in, in a way that isn’t blatant and in your face. We tried to conceal how much help we’re giving the player.

— Jaime Griesemer

It essentially buffers your movements, so that you get the movement you wanted, not necessarily the one you were making. Which gives you a really controlled, precise experience, beyond what your thumb could actually give you, unassisted.

— Stuart Moulder

Not all games do it the same way, or to the same degree, but aim assist goes a long way to making thumbstick aiming not awful. It's also a lot of work on the part of the developer. While we tend not to measure code in "pages", Jaime's making the point intended to be understood by non-programmers: it's a lot of code. It's a lot of work.

Why_not_just_use_thumbsticks.php

 

[bilderberg]

And again, enemies are designed that way because stick aim just cannot keep up with anything faster than that. Now if you're playing against actual human players you have to deal with unpredictable movement and your aim at the same time and the differences you see on a console shooters vs. the pc counterpart can be huge.

And that's exactly my argument so why the hell are you people arguing with me? This isn't an "anti m/kb" argument, it's a game design argument. If an enemy is slow and stationary enough to be easily killed with a controller, than a mouse straight up breaks any semblance of challenge. And I always play anything competitive with a m/kb, I already said that in my op.

 

[Kabelly]

And that's exactly my argument so why the hell are you people arguing with me? This isn't an "anti m/kb" argument, it's a game design argument. If an enemy is slow and stationary enough to be easily killed with a controller, than a mouse straight up breaks any semblance of challenge. And I always play anything competitive with a m/kb, I already said that in my op.

and that's unfortunate because we have the tech to change game design for controllers. I will constantly plug in gyro aim because the stuff i can do in Splatoon vs. other console shooters is huge. I apologize for misinterpreting what you were saying.

 

[jono51]

most games are designed for people that are drunk/high and have fingers caked on cheeto dust
not really optimal conditions for skill based gameplay hence the dumbing down

 

[Ivan]

You're not gonna get support on this OP, but I'm with you

 

[Buyukbaba]

Skill gap effects results hugely on controller gaming whether with aim assist or without. Average gamer and above can easily achive satisfactory results with k&m, on the other hand average gamer with controller will suffer a lot in games. This is the main difference i guess. This translates into same kinda opinion as OP.

 

[magnumpy]

controller nazis have no place in modern gaming. you should use whatever control method you prefer. be that console controllers, M/KB, or cell phone. it's all good.

 

[Bathtub Fart]

I use to think this too OP, but when you play games like Counter Strike, Escape from Tarkov, Arma, Quake, etc... you learn that it's the generous hit boxes of a lot of modern games that do indeed make it too easy. Once you make precision really important by getting rid of all aim assist, bullet magnetism, and generous hit boxes, the challenge returns again in a very fair way compared to controllers.

I love my console gaming FPS, but you have to approach combat so differently compared to kb/m.

 

[Shifty]

Bizarre take.

Use the right input device for the job, it's on the developer if they don't balance around it.

 

[01011001]

of course almost noone is willing to actually argue and most are just making dumb jokes.

maybe they're too stupid to understand the point that's being made here.
but what do you expect on the internet :/

 

[klosos]

Well the finger should be pointed at devs who havnt improved AI of enemies, I don't think there as been a great jump in AI for years. I don't think they will improve it either because we know gamers/media cry when they can't beat a boss/level.

M/KB is great and the only way to play shooters for me, what I do is if it's a single player game I'll put it on harder difficulties if they are available to make it more satisfying.

 

[KlickKlack]

great counter argument. Here's another example. Play Gears and pick up the longshot, it's essentially easy mode regardless of the difficulty. You can just sit back from across the level and easily pick off any enemy because they always expose even a little part of their head from behind cover. They're barely moving, they're just sitting behind cover, and entire areas can be easily cleared just from picking off heads. Games designed around controllers just aren't fun or challenging with a mouse.

Or Borderlands as well. Use a sniper rifle and you're never going to miss unless you're just awful. There's hardly any scope sway, enemies move just a few steps and then stop to fire making it extremely easy to get headshots. All of these concessions are primarily because it's designed around a controller and when you use a mouse it breaks the game. Am i happy about it? No, but it is what it is.

100% facts

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Stupidest opinion of the decade.

It's not even an opinion really, it's just wrong.

 

[Verchod]

I mostly play slower paced games, and I miss the analogue movement of a controller compared to the on/off of a keyboard.

 

[diffusionx]

Yea I think there’s something to this. Games are designed with pads in mind and the mouse keyboard is SO much more capable that it can feel like easy mode. this of course isn’t true of PC exclusive games designed to be played this way from the start.

It’s why games need good difficulty level design. Doom 2016 was a game you just had to ratchet up the difficulty to get a real good experience especially with a mouse. At default the game was so easy and so much easier than the console version it didn’t feel right. But even that doesn’t change things like massive hit boxes and slower pace for some games.

 

[Husky]

ahahahahahaha

 

[The Cockatrice]

Answer this OP. Is Dark Souls easier with m/kb? What about Tekken 7?

Some games are easier with m/kb, some games are easier with a controller. It all depends on the genre and the developer. Modern times have nothing to do with it. I do think what you're trying to say is that modern games are generally just easier which I could probably agree.

 

[Negotiator]

Answer this OP. Is Dark Souls easier with m/kb? What about Tekken 7?

Some games are easier with m/kb, some games are easier with a controller. It all depends on the genre and the developer. Modern times have nothing to do with it. I do think what you're trying to say is that modern games are generally just easier which I could probably agree.

Modern games are console ports, so yeah... they're built with controllers in mind.

 

[bilderberg]

It's not even an opinion really, it's just wrong.

explain why

Answer this OP. Is Dark Souls easier with m/kb? What about Tekken 7?

Some games are easier with m/kb, some games are easier with a controller. It all depends on the genre and the developer. Modern times have nothing to do with it. I do think what you're trying to say is that modern games are generally just easier which I could probably agree.

I can't think of any game or genre that would be easier with a controller. Character action games and racing games are probably more fun to most people using controllers, but I don't think you would lose anything playing them with m/kb. I don't think Dark Souls would be neither easier or harder with m/kb. Using a kb for fighting games is essentially a mixbox/hitbox, which is arguably far superior to a pad or arcade stick. Now you have the Crossup which is quite literally breaking fighting games in ways developers never intended.

It isn't just about modern games being easier either. It's about enemy types, enemy placement, level design. Designing a shooter around a controller isn't just about giving the player more health. Enemies become more stationary, they take longer to shoot, levels are less vertical and are flatter. You combine all these concessions, and many more, made to console shooters, now with the precision of a mouse the game was never designed around and you can just out aim game design.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

explain why

It's simple really, the games are not designed in this slow moving methodical way which you present them to be, that's simply a measure and shortcoming of the control method. It's just an inferior input and what you're describing is the inferiority of said input as some leverage and intentionally difficulty curve when the reality is it's a limitation that can't be overcome.

 

[Wolfgang Jr]

M/KB makes modern games too easy

Not in driving games.

 

[Tesseract]

for most sp fps i agree, the games are far too easy

you should try something like devil daggers on steam, might be up your alley

 

[Birdo]

Well, you're basically just moving a mouse pointer around the screen. Naturally it's going to be much easier.

This is why I think pro console players are generally more skilled than PC ones.

*Ducks and runs because he's right and people don't like truith sometimes*

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Well, you're basically just moving a mouse pointer around the screen. Naturally it's going to be much easier.

This is why I think pro console players are generally more skilled than PC ones.

*Ducks and runs because he's right and people don't like truith sometimes*

That's not the truth though because you come to realize the people you're competing against use the same input thus you're equally at a disadvantage. Just because the control method becomes more intelligible doesn't make a competitive scenario easier, it actually makes it harder.

 

[bilderberg]

It's simple really, the games are not designed in this slow moving methodical way which you present them to be, that's simply a measure and shortcoming of the control method. It's just an inferior input and what you're describing is the inferiority of said input as some leverage and intentionally difficulty curve when the reality is it's a limitation that can't be overcome.

yes they are

 

[DynamiteCop!]

yes they are

No they're just not. You've just become so accustomed to the way in which controllers input your movements as instructions that you've tied that to a delineation in design that doesn't actually exist.

These games don't get "easier" because of KB/M, they become more controllable. What you're doing is like advocating for Model-T era of driving mechanics over that of a modern car, making something more obtuse and convoluted for the sake of a misguided viewpoint.

 

[Belmonte]

English isn't my native language so perhaps I'm misunderstandingbut but OP isn't saying that controller is better than keyboard + mouse. He is saying that since console games are made with controller as the standard, games are not properly balanced to accomodate keyboard and mouse. Enemy reaction time is slower than it should and certain weapons can lose their usefulness since their pros are only pros if the player doesn't have much precision.

It is not a perfect comparison but the Contra Spread weapon would not be as useful if the player could shoot in more than 8 directions.

Many times I had this impression too. Some console games, specially PS360 shooters feels too slow when playing with the high precision of K+M. It is like RE4 on console versus RE4 on Wii. Wii version is much easier since the controller is faster and more precise.

For FPSs, I'm a keyboard + mouse player BTW. It is much better and have a much higher skill ceiling.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Controllers are clearly good, I think gamers are starting to understand that M/KB is a very unique option though.

 

[nkarafo]

I agree that KB/mouse is superior.

I still play with a wireless controller on my PC though because i like to sit comfortably on the couch and use my fingers instead of be locked into position on a desk and using my whole arms.

Thankfully i only play single player games so i don't have to eat shit from anybody.

 

[The_Mike]

Do you think you're good when modern shooter design is the equivalent of clicking a desktop icon? If you can point and click on an enemy in Diablo, you posses 90% of the skill needed to play fps's with a mouse. Don't think so high and mighty of yourself. Most shooters allow you to turn off auto aim, which isn't much of an issue now a days because enemies are either sitting behind chest high walls or standing still long enough to give you plenty of time to line up head shots. If you're still having a hard time using a controller playing today's shooters the issue is with you.

Good luck playing like this on your controller



Even though I enjoy many fps games today, the genre in general has turned to shit because of the popularity on consoles. The pace is so god damn slow in many of them.

 

[bilderberg]

No they're just not. You've just become so accustomed to the way in which controllers input your movements as instructions that you've tied that to a delineation in design that doesn't actually exist.

if you don't think fps's are slower today than they were in the 90's and early 00's you're too far gone.

Many times I had this impression too. Some console games, specially PS360 shooters feels too slow when playing with the high precision of K+M. It is like RE4 on console versus RE4 on Wii. Wii version is much easier since the controller is faster and more precise.

For FPSs, I'm a keyboard + mouse player BTW. It is much better and have a much higher skill ceiling.

perfect example. Same goes for the pc versions of RE4 and 5 when using a mouse.

 

[Helios]

I don't think Dark Souls would be neither easier or harder with m/kb.

Go ahead and play Dark Souls 1 with m/kb and see what happens.