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Major Study Finds Masks Don’t Reduce COVID-19 Infection Rates

oagboghi2

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I can play this game too.

Source

WHO projects the number could be that high, but documented cases is 55 million worldwide with 1.3 millions deaths, which is 2.3% Those are the number off their website. And regardless... I live in America so I look at our numbers of both CoVid and the flu, which the CDC reports annually. The numbers are there reported by an organization run by a Trump appointee and they show our CoVid deaths as much higher than any year of the flu in decades, with lower infection numbers. Simple math.

You can claim Trump tried to prevent panic but it's bullshit. His entire campaign and Presendency has been about creating panic and doubt. The fact that he still downplays the pandemic also refutes his claim. If he was concerned about not creating panic, why promote false cures, contradict his own task force, vilify Fauci, and why discourage taking the basic steps to lessen the impact. You know why... he campaigns off his economy and he was afraid it would hurt him.

And which things have been debunked? By reputable sources too, not some douche on twitter or random alt reality website or idiot on you tube. What does the medical community say? or even the CDC?

Trump wasn't okay rioting, but wasn't discouraging campaign events, or protests he believed in. They moved the RNC because they couldn't have crowds, not for public safety, but to project an image.
Remember the Liberate Minnesota, Liberate Virginia, Liberate Michigan tweets? He didn't discourage his million Maga March either, or even counter protesters. For fucks sake.. he wanted to open up sports arenas again.

Did the democrats politicize CoVid.. absolutely
, but our President knowingly deceived the country about its seriousness and sowed doubt in the people that are supposed to solve the issue and create public policy. He fucked it up hard.. His moment to shine and he raw dogged the shit out of it.

You want to call me a lemming because I believe in people like doctors and virologist instead of some asshat with youtube channel or twitter following.. I'm ok with that.
Let's the democrats off without a hook, and deliberately ignores everything the administration did this year to combat covid.

It's a waste of time. In his mind, Trump created the virus.
 
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oagboghi2

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Oh here we go with partial info again. Let's take conclusions from the site which is unreliable and borderline extreme right:


Here is the actual abstract text.

Results:
A total of 3030 participants were randomly assigned to the recommendation to wear masks, and 2994 were assigned to control; 4862 completed the study. Infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%). The between-group difference was −0.3 percentage point (95% CI, −1.2 to 0.4 percentage point; P = 0.38) (odds ratio, 0.82 [CI, 0.54 to 1.23]; P = 0.33). Multiple imputation accounting for loss to follow-up yielded similar results. Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection.


Limitation:
Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others.


Conclusion:
The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection.


So the only conclusion with severe limitations(!) is that masks didn't reduce infection rate by more than 50%? The Ci is between 46 and -24% it's basically too low of a sample to make a determination at this rate - the population is too low, especially the % infected overall. Considering the very tiny proportion of overall infected in the population you'd need a much bigger sample, clearly the transmission among the group are too few to account just for masks and not other factors. In such tiny amounts it's more of a family/closed friends kind of situation. Personally I find this study to be shoddy - the actual data is much too unreliable to make a reasonable test, environemnt is not controlled, variable doens't seem to be isolated etc... If 5 people in any group were to be infected at this rate that would cause a difference between being significant margin or not - it's simply not good science.

So don't be stupid, stop posting crap scioence and wear the damn mask if you're in high risk area/high density area.
And like clockwork, every opinion that isn't 100% the "live in constant fear" narrative is an extreme right opinion. 🙄
 

prag16

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It does NOT provide data re: the effectiveness of widespread mask usage and the effectiveness of protecting others when you are the one who has it.
That's the whole fucking problem. Nobody has provided that data. At least not in a vehicle that is based entirely on speculation, models, or non-controlled/random studies riddled with confounding factors. And circumstantial evidence around the world now during this "second wave" indicates that masks don't do a goddamn thing.
 

Joe T.

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Ah yes, The Matrix, just the thing to draw your personal "truths" from!

Fun flick, but truthfully really fucking dumb. And lets not get into the sequels where the "free" world was basically a crusty Antifa rave party!
You may be overthinking the meme. In this context the cognitive dissonance is very real. This may or may not be of any worth to you, I'm not really sure where you stand on the matter, but at the very least it'll offset the meme.

It doesn't matter how ridiculous or easily debunked the lie, these last few years alone have shown us just how difficult it can be to convince someone of the irrefutable truth. My opinion is shaped by the same data and facts available to everyone else, unfortunately much of that has been hidden from the masses by the mainstream media and the "experts." Can you still trust an expert that conceals the full picture from you?

PCR Ct values, daily test types/numbers are a good example. People still push the narrative that South Korea, among others, contained this virus by employing "mass testing," a story sold to us all by the mainstream media early on. Those same media outlets then claimed western countries with similar or better testing numbers were disastrous failures. You simply can't reconcile that and this pandemic is slathered in such contradictions (re: divide and conquer).

Those deceptions helped legitimize this very poor "gold standard" of testing which is now holding us hostage. We've been stripped of our rights because of this massive fraud.

As another example, people believe that New Zealand controlled this virus and has been allowed to get back to normal because of it. They're ignoring two very important points: NZ's low testing numbers and the fact that they will shut everything down again, like they did in Auckland, should some cases pop back up. That's not normal, their fragile state of freedom is now permanently at the mercy of those tests.

I like to use this image not for the theories that can be spun from it, but because he's been one of the leading figures pushing this fraud the title of the book highlighted goes straight to the heart of the problem:



Exposing people to the hard data - adding context where it's sorely missing - that proves early reporting wrong often leaves them in a bit of a shock, but instead of accepting the facts and shifting their opinion accordingly they often come up with "yes, but..." dismissals and nothing changes. The truth can be a hard pill to swallow, especially when politics are in play and everyone's in tribalism mode. We all saw how quickly the pandemic was weaponized for political purposes in the US (again, divide and conquer).

There's a lot of irresponsible/deceptive reporting that interprets/infers all positive results as infectious cases. That's simply not true, no way to spin it. So, a year after this started blowing up in China, why aren't we asking for better methods of testing that can focus on sick/infectious cases?

I think the answer to that is obvious to some, uncomfortable for others: they want to keep the fear in place. Cuomo was recently on camera admitting as much, the government here in Quebec has done the same. You can try to brush that under the rug or rationalize it, but the fact remains: they want you to be scared. Does that sound like good public health policy to you given everything we've learned about this virus?

I'd film myself walking through a hospital's covid ward mask-less if allowed and social media wouldn't yank it. This is not ebola, it's not even on the same level as a cold or flu for a lot of people, myself included. I understand that will offend those that tested positive and suffered or had family/acquaintances that died, but some balance is required when our worldview gets heavily skewed by extremely poor/deceptive reporting (NYT is quietly editing stories, one example via Twitter). We won't get that balance we need if we only believe half of the story.

If you want to talk about "personal truths"/experience/anecdotes, my dad was nearly killed by the fear that scared health care workers into staying home and suspended/shut down vital hospital operations. He apparently had the virus - test results bounced back and forth - while dealing with pneumonia, but after coming out of it looking better than before there was disruption/delays to his regular treatment. We had to hound them to rectify that.

More to the point of this thread: regions of the world with the strictest mask mandates or highest compliance had their case numbers go well above regions where they're barely worn at all. Masks are not helping out in the general public, months worth of evidence has been laid bare before us to reach that conclusion. Nobody is able to say the situation would be worse without them because we have clear examples demonstrating that's false, too.

This isn't a game. There will be collateral damage from the extreme measures imposed for years to come all because of the unsubstantiated fear those masks feed into and project. No government official or expert closed to debate and no media outlet intentionally giving you only part of the story is working in our best interest.

I'm open minded, I will go looking for more info wherever I can find it, conspiracy theorists included - you might be surprised how much factual info you can find from some of those sources. Critical thinking to discern fact from fiction is a necessity when going that route, but these days an argument can be made that you need more of it when consuming mainstream/"respected" news.

When your source of information isn't giving you the full picture you need to start branching out.
 

Yoshi

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If the mask doesnt block the virus getting in, how can it protect against getting out?
The mask is close to the wearer's face. If it can stop fluids, this may help protecting people who are far away form the mask. But if you are wearing the mask close to your nose and someone sneezes a bunch of virus particles onto your mask, it may permeat the mask after a while and then you are inhaling the virus load of the infected person. I do not know whether the mask is effective to help stopping you from spreading your virus load, but in principle, I could see a mechanism to do that without protecting yourself from getting infected.
 

CrapSandwich

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This is actually a really important point because to say someone "died of Covid" is almost always an oversimplification. It's the same kind of oversimplification that people generally use to try to describe most of what happens in the universe. And that is a single entity acting upon another single entity and producing a single result. Not to even get into that this is a universe of processes and not of things, but in this case, it wasn't Covid that nearly killed her, but a combination of Covid and obesity. Obesity is likely as much at fault. And that kind of oversimplifying is absolutely fatal in trying to figure out solutions to things, or at least more favorable sequences.
 

Liljagare

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Did OP actually read the study? Because, that is not what the study concluded.

Why are there so many garbo threads in /Politics theese last weeks?
 
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DragoonKain

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Did OP actually read the study? Because, that is not what the study concluded.

Why are there so many garbo threads in /Politics theese last weeks?
I concur, I was reading through it and that doesn't seem to be what it suggests. And it even says in the study:

Limitation:
Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others.
I don't think masks are some miracle cure, but every single person I know and am friends with who works in the medical industry tells me they work and are important.. My own doctors, close friends who I know who are doctors and nurses, and experts who I would trust not to BS. Hell, people wore masks even dating back to the middle ages with those plague masks with the long beaks, which were built in social distancing devices. They work, they've been known to work for a long time. The question is how well and if it's worth the discomfort wearing them. Masks block droplets. Droplets carry virus. The less droplets you expel, the less risk you have. It's not complicated. I personally think whining about the discomfort of a mask is crybaby Nancy kinda stuff, but hey, to each their own.

I think people are so tunnel visioned on how crazy the left has been in 2020 that people have developed a bunker mentality and are looking for confirmation bias on anything that will disprove anything "the left" generally propagates. And I do think there are power hungry politicians out there who want to control people, but that's irrespective of the effectiveness of masks.
 

Joe T.

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I think people are so tunnel visioned on how crazy the left has been in 2020 that people have developed a bunker mentality and are looking for confirmation bias on anything that will disprove anything "the left" generally propagates. And I do think there are power hungry politicians out there who want to control people, but that's irrespective of the effectiveness of masks.
It's not irrespective, it's core to the issue.

How do you explain to someone that they absolutely need to wear masks when Sweden has been doing better without them?

Masks serve a specific purpose for health care workers in health care settings. They're not producing the intended results "out in the wild." It was a nice, large scale experiment, but doubling down on measures that are not working is insane.

This command over social behavior from the top down should have raised alarm bells in everyone by now.
 

DragoonKain

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It's not irrespective, it's core to the issue.

How do you explain to someone that they absolutely need to wear masks when Sweden has been doing better without them?

Masks serve a specific purpose for health care workers in health care settings. They're not producing the intended results "out in the wild." It was a nice, large scale experiment, but doubling down on measures that are not working is insane.

This command over social behavior from the top down should have raised alarm bells in everyone by now.
Sweden is less densely populated, Sweden is healthier, and their cases spiked recently too. America in many major cities is densely packed, and like 50% of the country is obese.

who knows how many Swedes got it and didn’t even know it because they weren’t flat slobs?
 

diffusionx

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who knows how many Swedes got it and didn’t even know it because they weren’t flat slobs?
So maybe the fatties can stay locked down and I can go to a bar and talk to a girl FFS?

In my neighborhood, case counts are spiking. I would say that mask compliance is somewhere around 98% in my observation. This is far above the threshold that people floated early on where they were like, the virus would basically go away at 80% mask usage. Everyone wears a mask inside and virtually everyone wears one outside. In fact, it has been this way since April and cases never went down to zero.

So, what is going on? I feel like the onus is on the mask fanatics to explain what is going on, and it can't possibly be that people aren't masking enough.
 

DragoonKain

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So maybe the fatties can stay locked down and I can go to a bar and talk to a girl FFS?

In my neighborhood, case counts are spiking. I would say that mask compliance is somewhere around 98% in my observation. This is far above the threshold that people floated early on where they were like, the virus would basically go away at 80% mask usage. Everyone wears a mask inside and virtually everyone wears one outside. In fact, it has been this way since April and cases never went down to zero.

So, what is going on? I feel like the onus is on the mask fanatics to explain what is going on, and it can't possibly be that people aren't masking enough.
You are basing it on your personal observation. These people you see obviously aren’t wearing masks 24 hours a day. They take them off when they go home. Or go to a friends house. Or go to a bar(can’t drink with a mask) or go to restaurants. These are all things that have led to spiking cases as restrictions have softened and people have gotten back to regular life.

In South Korea they’re super religious about masks and they have the covid thing very much under control. I think other things have a lot to do with it as well, but they’re super diligent over there about It and Seoul is a pretty densely populated city.

I think there are limits to imposing mandates on people, but that’s not what this topic is about. It’s trying to suggest masks don’t work at all and that simply isn’t true.
 

diffusionx

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You are basing it on your personal observation. These people you see obviously aren’t wearing masks 24 hours a day. They take them off when they go home. Or go to a friends house. Or go to a bar(can’t drink with a mask) or go to restaurants. These are all things that have led to spiking cases as restrictions have softened and people have gotten back to regular life.

In South Korea they’re super religious about masks and they have the covid thing very much under control. I think other things have a lot to do with it as well, but they’re super diligent over there about It and Seoul is a pretty densely populated city.

I think there are limits to imposing mandates on people, but that’s not what this topic is about. It’s trying to suggest masks don’t work at all and that simply isn’t true.
Well, no, because indoor dining and bars are still super restricted here, and we have to give our contact info. If they were a big reason for the rise in cases, I have a feeling Cuomo and BDB would be shouting it from the rooftops. And you obviously can't mandate mask usage inside the house, although some are trying.

This leads to my bigger point, as a macro policy, as a big public health policy for everyone, mask usage is a big fat failure. It's a failure for so many reasons. The fact that people can post videos showing droplets with/without a mask is ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things. As a big policy for all of society, mask usage is a dud and a waste of time.

In South Korea, I mentioned this a few days ago, they're not testing, and considering the majority of cases are asymptomatic, I highly doubt the claims that they have this solved.
 
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Joe T.

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Sweden is less densely populated, Sweden is healthier, and their cases spiked recently too. America in many major cities is densely packed, and like 50% of the country is obese.

who knows how many Swedes got it and didn’t even know it because they weren’t flat slobs?
The population density argument only goes so far, it falls flat when you dive into it. How do you explain to people outside of Montreal that they have to abide by the same measures within Montreal? The majority of our cases have been outside Montreal. Stockholm's streets, restaurants and trains are often more crowded than those in cities like Montreal regardless of the population density difference and I suspect a lot of that has to do with the constant fearmongering here. I can't really speak to the day to day news coverage at the local level in Stockholm.

Your second point lends itself to my belief that we could be living normal lives had the fear conveyed by propaganda and statistical fraud not disrupted everything on such a grand scale. How many people would know they had this coronavirus? Would it matter if they didn't? Would our hospitals have been overwhelmed and life come to a grinding halt had we not known?
 
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crisdecuba

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So, what is going on?
The intuitive answer for me is that people are growing more lax with what they consider safe after dealing with this for so long, and letting more people into what they consider their “safe” mask free community. I see this with parents at our kids’ school - suddenly toward the end of the year they think that indoor gatherings with other parents are okay and few ppl wear masks or do social distancing. And you had tons of Halloween gatherings with young people that go back and spread it to others in their family (their “safe” space). And then you see larger events like that wedding recently where about half the people got it. I see and hear all this and the intuitive answer is that while people may wear masks (and do the other recommended things) when going to Walmart (for example), there’s this whole other set of choices they’re making and actions they’re taking that are allowing the virus to continue to spread.
 
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DragoonKain

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The population density argument only goes so far, it falls flat when you dive into it. How do you explain to people outside of Montreal that they have to abide by the same measures within Montreal? The majority of our cases have been outside Montreal. Stockholm's streets, restaurants and trains are often more crowded than those in cities like Montreal regardless of the population density difference and I suspect a lot of that has to do with the constant fearmongering here. I can't really speak to the day to day news coverage at the local level in Stockholm.

Your second point lends itself to my belief that we could be living normal lives had the fear conveyed by propaganda and statistical fraud not disrupted everything on such a grand scale. How many people would know they had this coronavirus? Would it matter if they didn't? Would our hospitals have been overwhelmed and life come to a grinding halt had we not known?
You’re asking someone to explain the impossible. It’s a case by case basis. You’d have to know who is wearing masks where, how often, etc. There are spikes during most epidemics, it’s what typically happens. It happens once people get lax and aren’t as diligent.

The lockdown stuff is a totally different argument, I’m just trying to convey that masks do make a difference. Again, how much one city should or can afford to lockdown to prevent spread is an entirely different argument altogether.
 

diffusionx

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You’re asking someone to explain the impossible. It’s a case by case basis. You’d have to know who is wearing masks where, how often, etc. There are spikes during most epidemics, it’s what typically happens. It happens once people get lax and aren’t as diligent.
No, it happens because it's flu season, and viruses spread during flu season. Ultimately, this is beyond our control to a large extent, and there's nothing anybody can do short of living in the woods in a 5 mile radius from anyone else for six months. It is part of living in a human society.

That's the problem with this mask/social distancing thing. It's turned into this talisman, this quasi-religious thing, where if people get sick, the problem is that they didn't mask and social distance enough. Not, you know, it's flu season, and shit goes around no matter what.

Hell the two explanations I got for the spike in my neighborhood were both that people aren't masking enough, lmao. People seek to control the uncontrollable, it is part of our nature, but at this point, we're in "we've angered the gods" territory, it is ridiculous.

Edit: I will also add, that if the problem really, truly is, that people aren't masking enough - if I am wrong, and the problem really is that masks aren't used enough, then I will just say that, after eight months of nonstop propaganda over this, of the media saying literally hundreds of times a day to wear masks, of every government official telling people to wear masks constantly, of people on social media and in real life telling people to wear masks all day every day, if people are not wearing masks then they aren't going to do it.
 
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DragoonKain

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No, it happens because it's flu season, and viruses spread during flu season. Ultimately, this is beyond our control to a large extent, and there's nothing anybody can do short of living in the woods in a 5 mile radius from anyone else for six months. It is part of living in a human society.

That's the problem with this mask/social distancing thing. It's turned into this talisman, this quasi-religious thing, where if people get sick, the problem is that they didn't mask and social distance enough. Not, you know, it's flu season, and shit goes around no matter what.

Hell the two explanations I got for the spike in my neighborhood were both that people aren't masking enough, lmao. People seek to control the uncontrollable, it is part of our nature, but at this point, we're in "we've angered the gods" territory, it is ridiculous.

Edit: I will also add, that if the problem really, truly is, that people aren't masking enough - if I am wrong, and the problem really is that masks aren't used enough, then I will just say that, after eight months of nonstop propaganda over this, of the media saying literally hundreds of times a day to wear masks, of every government official telling people to wear masks constantly, of people on social media and in real life telling people to wear masks all day every day, if people are not wearing masks then they aren't going to do it.
You keep trying to make some political argument with me when I'm not even trying to go there. None of this has anything to do with what I've been saying. All I said were that masks work and you're trying to go into a tangent about something that I'm not even arguing.
 

diffusionx

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You keep trying to make some political argument with me when I'm not even trying to go there. None of this has anything to do with what I've been saying. All I said were that masks work and you're trying to go into a tangent about something that I'm not even arguing.
Masks do NOT WORK as a matter of large scale public policy, period. That is what I am saying.
 

Joe T.

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You’re asking someone to explain the impossible. It’s a case by case basis. You’d have to know who is wearing masks where, how often, etc. There are spikes during most epidemics, it’s what typically happens. It happens once people get lax and aren’t as diligent.

The lockdown stuff is a totally different argument, I’m just trying to convey that masks do make a difference. Again, how much one city should or can afford to lockdown to prevent spread is an entirely different argument altogether.
You say they make a difference, and so did the HHS psychiatrist at the White House covid press briefing today, but no one is ever able to prove it or make a compelling case for it. The evidence runs completely counter to that argument.

If people in Sweden haven't been dropping like flies and they're living maskless then what on earth says I need to wear a mask? I'm not overweight. Do I need to wear a mask because there are more Montrealers overweight than in Stockholm? What's the cutoff point? I mean, when you start to examine the issue it doesn't take long to realize how foolish this is.

If Swedes can cram a train without masks then why can't I? is it because they have a superior health care system? I think if we started making that comparison between countries all over the world it might yield some real results rather than this blind faith in masks. You'd see how fast authoritarian leader #1 would want to outdo authoritarian leader #2 and so on. Accountability.
 

diffusionx

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Oh - I thought you were saying that masks don’t work as a matter of actual protection in places where everyone is masked.
If trained medical personnel are wearing N95 masks or whatever as part of their job in which contact with COVID patients is expected, and if they are using and discarding them as directed, they can do what they are designed to do.

If everyone is wearing .000005 cent made in china cloth masks they are touching constantly and hanging on their rear view mirror for weeks at a time, it is worse than nothing.
 
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DragoonKain

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You say they make a difference, and so did the HHS psychiatrist at the White House covid press briefing today, but no one is ever able to prove it or make a compelling case for it. The evidence runs completely counter to that argument.

If people in Sweden haven't been dropping like flies and they're living maskless then what on earth says I need to wear a mask? I'm not overweight. Do I need to wear a mask because there are more Montrealers overweight than in Stockholm? What's the cutoff point? I mean, when you start to examine the issue it doesn't take long to realize how foolish this is.

If Swedes can cram a train without masks then why can't I? is it because they have a superior health care system? I think if we started making that comparison between countries all over the world it might yield some real results rather than this blind faith in masks. You'd see how fast authoritarian leader #1 would want to outdo authoritarian leader #2 and so on. Accountability.
People all over the world are wearing them. Do you think all these countries are all authoritarian? They're trying to prevent spread so hospitals don't get overrun during these spikes. So if you got it and it really fucked you up bad, that they don't turn you away and say "sorry, we're at full capacity, our condolences."

It's such a minor inconvenience. When I wear them I forget I even have it on half the time.
 
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I've used a mask once so as not to get into a scuffle while attempting to use a library in 20 years after being confronted by someone with a degree in who knows what. I was the only person in the library at the time. It's not like I can use another library. I catch a lot of stares when I go for food though. They really are conditioned to do exactly what they they're told by the telescreen. When I wear the mask I can barely breath and need to dig a lot deeper for air.
Do you have emphysema or something? If you're wearing a mask and it is causing you that much trouble breathing you may want to see a doctor.
 
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Joe T.

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People all over the world are wearing them. Do you think all these countries are all authoritarian? They're trying to prevent spread so hospitals don't get overrun during these spikes. So if you got it and it really fucked you up bad, that they don't turn you away and say "sorry, we're at full capacity, our condolences."

It's such a minor inconvenience. When I wear them I forget I even have it on half the time.
The countries? No, the leaders parroting Klaus Schwab's "fourth industrial evolution"/"Great Reset" rhetoric and imposing extreme measures that pave a direct path to his agenda? Hell yes.

They aren't preventing anything, they're intentionally deceiving you with misattributed deaths, hospitalizations and "case" counts each and every day. There is direct evidence for this from around the world, doctors/officials admitting in plain language that they'll label almost everything as covid. I thought this fraud might be exclusive to the US early on because of the monetary incentive, but nope, it's happening in Canada and it's happening in Europe.

No government that holds daily covid briefings and falsely conflates 100% of positive test results as infectious cases has any credibility. I could write a book about the BS coming from the local government here in Quebec because I've watched almost every single briefing they've held, briefings where some of the most important revelations get completely ignored by the mainstream media. I see very similar situations around the world, where they intentionally obfuscate the data in order to keep the narrative alive.

Restaurants here asked the government for an explanation regarding their closure, proof that the virus was spreading from their locations. The government said it would provide it at a later date "because it takes time" to sort through that information. Weeks later they still hadn't received that info. When pressed for it again at a briefing the government simply said "we already made everything we have publicly available." They closed everything down without any evidence to support it and lied about it.

To make matters worse, when asked what scientific data they were using to make their decisions on masks, distancing, lock downs, etc they quite literally said they weren't using any because this is an unprecedented situation. It does not get any more direct than that.
 

Batiman

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I've used a mask once so as not to get into a scuffle while attempting to use a library in 20 years after being confronted by someone with a degree in who knows what. I was the only person in the library at the time. It's not like I can use another library. I catch a lot of stares when I go for food though. They really are conditioned to do exactly what they they're told by the telescreen. When I wear the mask I can barely breath and need to dig a lot deeper for air.
you need to see a doctor by the sound of it. Barely breathe?
 
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DragoonKain

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I don’t know what to tell you man. Millions of people around the world in Asia, Europe, Australia. Canada, and America are fine wearing them and are getting along just fine.

again, mandates are a different story. That is a subject I have conflicting thoughts on because I don’t believe a government should legally require someone to do something they don’t want to do by threat of law.

But wearing them as a courtesy to help prevent spread? People are happily doing it just fine all over the world and aren’t complaining or talking about authoritarian conspiracies.

in most instances this is much ado about nothing. If nothing else it’ll make people around each other feel safer and more comfortable.
 

Joe T.

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I don’t know what to tell you man. Millions of people around the world in Asia, Europe, Australia. Canada, and America are fine wearing them and are getting along just fine.
And millions would rather not. You say mandates are a different story, but it's not at all. There'd be no issue with these masks were it not for the mandates. You realize those are quite common right now, right?

What right does any jurisdiction have to force these masks on a general public when it's yielding no positive results whatsoever? Again, Sweden has perfectly demonstrated they're unnecessary - they're performing better than countries with high compliance.

 
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It's obvious all test results show old people are the vast majority of serious cases. Maybe 60 or 70 year olds and up. There's hardly any young people getting seriously ill or dying.

Society has two choices:

1. Tell all old people to isolate and the general public doesn't get near them

2. Everyone can interact with each other, but everyone has to wear masks, slather on hand sanitizer at stores, sit 6 ft apart at restaurants etc.... And due to all open freedom by all ages, lock downs are required to prevent old people from getting sick

You go all inclusive and everyone has to mask up. Or you tell the vulnerable to live in a bubble and rest of society lives normal.

Governments have picked #2.
 
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DragoonKain

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And millions would rather not. You say mandates are a different story, but it's not at all. There'd be no issue with these masks were it not for the mandates. You realize those are quite common right now, right?

What right does any jurisdiction have to force these masks on a general public when it's yielding no positive results whatsoever? Again, Sweden has perfectly demonstrated they're unnecessary - they're performing better than countries with high compliance.

But again, I didn't post in here about mandates. I came in here to just explain my stance on masks and why they work. I understand your concerns about them, but it has nothing to do with the actual point I was making. There has to be room to discuss the individual effectiveness of masks in vacuum without always bringing up the political aspect of it. I was talking about it from an individual scientific aspect of it.
 
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prag16

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But again, I didn't post in here about mandates. I came in here to just explain my stance on masks and why they work. I understand your concerns about them, but it has nothing to do with the actual point I was making. There has to be room to discuss the individual effectiveness of masks in vacuum without always bringing up the political aspect of it. I was talking about it from an individual scientific aspect of it.
So like most people, you're fine with government overreach as long as you don't perceive it as personally affecting you.

Government overreach is a slippery slope.



...And also, masks don't do jack shit (outside of possibly a controlled health care environment among trained professionals).

I'm glad stretching your underpants over your face makes you feel Iike you're a hero though. Whatever gets you through the day. Sheep always find ways to rationalize being sheep.
 

crisdecuba

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If trained medical personnel are wearing N95 masks or whatever as part of their job in which contact with COVID patients is expected, and if they are using and discarding them as directed, they can do what they are designed to do.

If everyone is wearing .000005 cent made in china cloth masks they are touching constantly and hanging on their rear view mirror for weeks at a time, it is worse than nothing.
Those are the two extremes and there is a spectrum of effectiveness between the two extremes that is reasonable and responsible to consider.
 

Joe T.

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But again, I didn't post in here about mandates. I came in here to just explain my stance on masks and why they work. I understand your concerns about them, but it has nothing to do with the actual point I was making. There has to be room to discuss the individual effectiveness of masks in vacuum without always bringing up the political aspect of it. I was talking about it from an individual scientific aspect of it.
These discussions get the fire in me raging because I've spent so much time exploring them and no one is ever able to make a strong case for the masks. It always boils down to blind trust when we're talking about their efficacy in the general public. The real world results proves that trust is misplaced. "The science" many think they're following is more akin to a new religion.

I know you mean well, but if it was "just a mask" as so many claim I'd say sure, whatever, enjoy masking up, no skin off my back or something along those lines, but this is one part of a global campaign to keep the fear alive. This pandemic does not exist without the fear. The pitiful PCR tests are the worst offender, but as I pointed out elsewhere:

As represented by our cinema and other media, Western society expects too much of masks. In the public’s mind, the still-legitimate use of masks for source control has gone off-label; masks are thought to prevent infection. From here, another problem arises: because surgical masks are thought to protect against infection in the community setting, people wearing masks for legitimate purposes (those who have a cough in a hospital, say) form part of the larger misperception and act to reinforce it. Even this proper use of surgical masks is incorporated into a larger improper use in the era of pandemic fear, especially in Asia, where such fear is high.1 The widespread misconception about the use of surgical masks — that wearing a mask protects against the transmission of virus — is a problem of the kind theorized by German sociologist Ulrich Beck.
I propose that the surgical mask is a symbol that protects from the perception of risk by offering nonprotection to the public while causing behaviours that project risk into the future.
 

diffusionx

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Those are the two extremes and there is a spectrum of effectiveness between the two extremes that is reasonable and responsible to consider.
See, I'm not sure I agree with that. I think the former will work in the situations it needs to work, and everything short of that pretty much does not. And I think we see that by looking at what has happened the past... month or two. Virtually every western country has mask mandates and all that, and cases are continuing to go up.

I really truly believe we will see studies in the next 3 or 4 years that go over the mask mandates and come to the conclusion they were a bad idea, didn't help, and led to a false sense of security that probably led to more spread than we would have had otherwise.
 
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clem84

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These discussions get the fire in me raging because I've spent so much time exploring them and no one is ever able to make a strong case for the masks. It always boils down to blind trust when we're talking about their efficacy in the general public. The real world results proves that trust is misplaced. "The science" many think they're following is more akin to a new religion.

I know you mean well, but if it was "just a mask" as so many claim I'd say sure, whatever, enjoy masking up, no skin off my back or something along those lines, but this is one part of a global campaign to keep the fear alive. This pandemic does not exist without the fear. The pitiful PCR tests are the worst offender, but as I pointed out elsewhere:

This is the part where to me this narrative falls apart. What incentive could they have to keep the fear alive, and maintain the belief that this pandemic is real?

This also implies that you don't believe this pandemic is real. That's what it sounds like anyway.
 

crisdecuba

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See, I'm not sure I agree with that. I think the former will work in the situations it needs to work, and everything short of that pretty much does not. And I think we see that by looking at what has happened the past... month or two. Virtually every western country has mask mandates and all that, and cases are continuing to go up.
I can’t follow you on that claim because a spectrum of effectiveness both makes sense intuitively and is in line with the data we have re: the efficacy of different kinds of masks for blocking different sized droplets. What’s happened in the past month or two is more logically explained by people becoming more lax and loose over time in their homes and friendships.

Of course, you may still be totally right that it doesn’t work generally as a matter of public policy, but my comments are specifically with regards to efficacy where everyone actually is wearing masks.
 
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Cracklox

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I don’t know what to tell you man. Millions of people around the world in Asia, Europe, Australia. Canada, and America are fine wearing them and are getting along just fine.
Lets stop right there at Australia. One state of 6.5 million people, Victoria, out of 25 million has a mandate, and yes people where them, but the majority weren't until the mandate. Anecdotal of course, but I do live inner city in the biggest city there. This state is also run by a known socialist wannabe dictator with strong ties to China, but thats probably beside the point.

The rest of Australia, not so much. Here's a shot from a rugby game a few days ago in Queensland. 50,000+ people were at this.




There were also big crowds in South Australia and Sydney for other games in this series and barely a mask in sight. And like I posted a page or so back, its the place with the mask mandate (since mid July) that by far has the biggest case and death count.
 

prag16

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This is the part where to me this narrative falls apart. What incentive could they have to keep the fear alive, and maintain the belief that this pandemic is real?

This also implies that you don't believe this pandemic is real. That's what it sounds like anyway.
They want to maintain control. And even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they're NOT power hungry petty tyrants, there are still other self serving motives... such as retroactively justifying past (and now present and future) draconian actions to save face, by making sure as few people as possible realize this is completely overblown.

Is the pandemic real? I'll say this: End the mass testing of healthy/asymptomatic people and the pandemic, for the most part, ends tomorrow. I guarantee it.
 
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