Manhunt 2 won't be released in UK

Destructo Spin said:
ARGH

This news makes me want to kill something. If only there were some sort of game I could get killing instructions from... Curse this cycle!


Though I must be honest, I think the bbfc has a fair point. Whilst I do not condone censorship of this nature, especially when it concerns the choices of those who are 18 or above, their actual reasoning is quite fair.

I mean, manhunt was fun, but it was also pretty f***ing horrible, oppresive, bleak and ruthlessly violent. There are similar games that draw flack from the press (...gta) but these games don't center soley around the violent killing of different people.

Of course, having said all this, most people are intelligent enough to simply look at it as a piece of removed entertainment. A piece of mindless violence to excercie some demons before going back to doing whatever.

If you're old enough to vote, you should be old enough to decide which videogames you wish to purchase.
:lol I agree as well that they have the right idea when they say this game is not suitable for a lot of people, but actually denying those that want to play it and are over 18 seems a bit extreme. It's like they think everyone will turn out like Blanka (man that movie was sooo bad).

Meh wasn't gonna get it anyway.
 
ksamedi said:
The PAL port is probably already done, its releasing in a couple of weeks here. UKers just have to import from Holland or something.
Yeah? I've been doing some more reading since my last post on some uk forums. Apparently mainland EU countries get versions of Rockstar games that invariably have english language options. EBay should be useful in this case then.
 
plagiarize said:
it may be illegal to import it. i know that customs occasionally seize films banned from england, though that might just be for certain porn movies.
Thats true, but still, is it illegal to play it when you first get your hands on it? Its sorta like you have to be 18 years old (atleast where i live) to buy cigarettes, but you dont have to be 18 years old to use them. I have never heard of a case where someone gets punished by the law for playing a banned game, but if it have happend i would like to hear about it.
 
MrPing1000 said:
Don't know of any game websites that'll ship up north do u? Not gonna do a day trip to Dublin just to buy a game :D
Well any Xtra-Vision in Dundalk (Beside Newry), GAME & Xtra-Vision in Monaghan, Xtra Vision in Letterkenny etc will stock it. Donegal and Monaghan which are two Ulster Counties in the Republic that are well trodden with shoppers. Try Ebay too.
 
TheDrowningMan said:
Well, as the BBFC are pretty liberal these days (generally more so than their US counterparts, this must be horrible.

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that maybe this game is exactly what Jack Thompson thinks GTA is: A brutal murder simulator with no point other than to shock and disgust. It certainly seems that way from every preview out there.

So while I don't want this ban, I can see the point, given that it'll invariably be played by as many kids as adults.
18 ratings on video games in the uk are legally enforced. shops card and stand to receive pretty hefty fines if they sell to a minor.

the bbfc doesn't refuse classification to something on the basis that a kid might play it. they do it on the basis that they think it's unsuitable for even adults. now that i disagree with 100%, but that's what it is, and they have been getting better and better over the last couple of decades.

the only people you can blame in the uk for a kid playing a violent video game (if a store hasn't committed a criminal act in selling it to one) are the adults that buy the game for them.

you can't classify something with the thought that a kid might see it. if that was what happened everything would be rated PG... and it isn't what happens.
 
RandomVince said:
Yeah? I've been doing some more reading since my last post on some uk forums. Apparently mainland EU countries get versions of Rockstar games that invariably have english language options. EBay should be useful in this case then.
Yeah could be. But a game needs time to get to get to stores, also manufacturing and packaging take some time. Thats why the code is usually ready one month before release.
 

alistairw

Just so you know, I have the best avatars ever.
Gowans007 said:
I have no intention of buying this game but I have a problem with this censorship.

If you live here in the UK send a email to contact_the_bbfc@bbfc.co.uk along with your local MP & councilor (can be found by a quick google search) to show that there is a voice at the other side of the argument.

There is no excuse for apathy and for us to take the word of government, they do work for us remember.
This is worth quoting just for people who aren't reading the whole topic. If you're taking the time to announce your outrage to GAF, please take the time to let censorship bodies know you think what they're doing is unreasonable.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Can anyone tell me the not so obvious (waggle) differences between Manhunt 1 and 2?
Why did some people here say that manhunt 2 is not that "bad"/gory as the 1?
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
Branduil said:
Aren't you the guy who said people should be prosecuted for racist remarks?
No, I pointed out UK law and how it would affect said drawing if published in the UK, anyway, freedom of media does have its limits, that limit is when the majority of the populace finds something grossly offensive, the BBFC in the UK has the power to decide that, and Manhunt 2 in its current form breaches moral acceptability, simple as that.

Freedom of media is a right, but not an absolute one, its an important distinction, otherwise we would see sex, violence and profanity during daytime TV, "adult" music on mainstream radio etc, society usually can self censor, but there are times when outside, higher enforcement is needed, this is one of those times.

nerbo said:
God, the UK nanny-state makes me want to vomit.
Ok Lad, look one post below...

guise said:
I cant recall any other game actually being barred from sale in the UK
I think a couple may have been, can't remember specifics though (In the 80, C64, Spectrum age).
 
Stop It said:
No, I pointed out UK law and how it would affect said drawing if published in the UK, anyway, freedom of media does have its limits, that limit is when the majority of the populace finds something grossly offensive, the BBFC in the UK has the power to decide that, and Manhunt 2 in its current form breaches moral acceptability, simple as that.

Freedom of media is a right, but not an absolute one, its an important distinction, otherwise we would see sex, violence and profanity during daytime TV, "adult" music on mainstream radio etc, society usually can self censor, but there are times when outside, higher enforcement is needed, this is one of those times.
What does daytime TV and radio have to do with games you purchase and play in your own home?
 
plagiarize said:
there is nothing to stop Rockstar submitting a version with certain cuts made to it, and more to the point, the BBFC will have supplied them with everything they'd need to remove and change to come in with a rating.
"Where possible we try to consider cuts or, in the case of games, modifications which remove the material which contravenes the Board’s published Guidelines. In the case of Manhunt 2 this has not been possible."
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
Branduil said:
What does daytime TV and radio have to do with games you purchase and play in your own home?
Ok, you have previously stated that you are in full support of freedom of media, yet you accept censorship in TV/Radio/Newspapers etc, but when games/the internet are involved, its different? you can't have it both ways, Western societies trumpet freedom of expression, whether its in the media, on the street, or whatever, but in reality, there are limits, socially accepted ones at that, to that right, the same applies to games, films etc, as all Westen countries have rating systems, and as is the case, Manhunt 2 goes beyond acceptable standards to be classified (For the record, the BBFC has a rating Beyond 18, but obviously they didn't think it would be appropiate to hand what would be a mainstream released game that rating).
 
Wow, I'm pretty surprised that there are a few people in this thread standing up for this. I guess this is how power and responsibility over one's own life end up transferred to the government.
 
Stop It said:
Ok, you have previously stated that you are in full support of freedom of media, yet you accept censorship in TV/Radio/Newspapers etc, but when games/the internet are involved, its different? you can't have it both ways, Western societies trumpet freedom of expression, whether its in the media, on the street, or whatever, but in reality, there are limits, socially accepted ones at that, to that right, the same applies to games, films etc, as all Westen countries have rating systems, and as is the case, Manhunt 2 goes beyond acceptable standards to be classified (For the record, the BBFC has a rating Beyond 18, but obviously they didn't think it would be appropiate to hand what would be a mainstream released game that rating).
It's ridiculous to compare free TV channels, which anybody can watch, and obviously must be regulated anyway due to their limited number, to games which are bought and played in one's own home.
 

deftangel

took a programming course
Stop It said:
I think a couple may have been, can't remember specifics though (In the 80, C64, Spectrum age).
The only other game to receive a ban was Carmageddon, in 1997. However, that decision was subsequently overturned on appeal. Under the law in the UK, the publisher has 42 days within which to submit a formal appeal.

There is also nothing to say the publisher could not opt to make changes and resubmit a version afresh for a classification. The lack of any cuts suggested by the BBFC doesn't prohibit changes being made, it just means they couldn't say, "change X, Y and Z and it will definitely be approved."
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
Segata Sanshiro said:
Wow, I'm pretty surprised that there are a few people in this thread standing up for this. I guess this is how power and responsibility over one's own life end up transferred to the government.
How many times must I quote myself:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6778660&postcount=60

The BBFC Website said:
The British Board of Film Classification is an independent, non-governmental body, which has classified cinema films since it was set up in 1912, and videos since the passing of the Video Recordings Act in 1984.
Our government may do lots of bad things, but refusing to rate games is not one of them.
 
What a load of crap... is there any way it could still be released here, or the decision be overturned? The game's gonna be notorious in the UK now and will probably have huge import sales, especially if the press pick up on it.

Grr.
 
deftangel said:
The only other game to receive a ban was Carmageddon, in 1997. However, that decision was subsequently overturned on appeal. Under the law in the UK, the publisher has 42 days within which to submit a formal appeal.

There is also nothing to say the publisher could not opt to make changes and resubmit a version afresh for a classification. The lack of any cuts suggested by the BBFC doesn't prohibit changes being made, it just means they couldn't say, "change X, Y and Z and it will definitely be approved."
Wasnt the humans in Carmageddon changed to zombies or robots? I remember playing it and it was green blood or fluid.
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
deftangel said:
The only other game to receive a ban was Carmageddon, in 1997. However, that decision was subsequently overturned on appeal. Under the law in the UK, the publisher has 42 days within which to submit a formal appeal.

There is also nothing to say the publisher could not opt to make changes and resubmit a version afresh for a classification. The lack of any cuts suggested by the BBFC doesn't prohibit changes being made, it just means they couldn't say, "change X, Y and Z and it will definitely be approved."
Oh yes, that one, I totally forgot about that game, as I stated before, Manhunt 2 will be released over here, it will be changed to suit the BBFC, which in private will have gave Rockstar a checklist of things that got it rejected, they just don't say the reasons in public.

test_account said:
Wasnt the humans in Carmageddon changed to zombies or robots? I remember playing it and it was green blood or fluid.
Something like that, it was the first time that anyone tried to portray death by driving in a computer game, and it was treated accordingly, with shock, it shows how much society has changed since then, you can do much, much worse in the GTA games, and they barely got a second glance from the BBFC (Straight 18 ratings, no hassle).
 
Stop It said:
How many times must I quote myself:

Our government may do lots of bad things, but refusing to rate games is not one of them.
I don't really see why it matters that the BBFC is an NGO. The government seems to have mandated that certain types of media have to be classified by them, apparently even making it illegal not to obey their classifications. As far as I'm concerned, that effectively makes them an agent of the state.
 

deftangel

took a programming course
Stop It said:
Oh yes, that one, I totally forgot about that game, as I stated before, Manhunt 2 will be released over here, it will be changed to suit the BBFC, which in private will have gave Rockstar a checklist of things that got it rejected, they just don't say the reasons in public.
That's by no means certain. The ball is now in Rockstar's / Take 2's court.

The press release stated that no cuts or modifications were suggested to the publisher. If you take a look at some of the film records, they are quite up front about any cuts/changes suggested and why (for an example, check out Casino Royale). There would be no reason to keep any suggestions private in this case.

A game is much more difficult to cut than a video or film as often there isn't one specific scene, event or mechanic that can easily be removed.
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
jipe said:
I don't really see why it matters that the BBFC is an NGO. The government seems to have mandated that certain types of media have to be classified by them, apparently even making it illegal not to obey their classifications. As far as I'm concerned, that effectively makes them an agent of the state.
If you looked at the BBFC site you'll find the opposite is true, the BBFC was formed by the industry, only 23 years ago did it get an official mandate by the government.

The BBFC Website said:
The British Board of Film Censors was set up in 1912 by the film industry as an independent body to bring a degree of uniformity to the classification of film nationally.

Statutory powers on film remain with the local councils, which may overrule any of the Board's decisions, passing films we reject, banning films we have passed, and even waiving cuts, instituting new ones, or altering categories for films exhibited under their own licensing jurisdiction.

Video
In 1984 Parliament passed the Video Recordings Act. This act stated that, subject to certain exemptions, video recordings offered for sale or hire commercially in the UK must be classified by an authority designated by the Secretary of State. The President and Vice Presidents of the BBFC were so designated....
The BBFC were mandated to carry on the job they done for 70 years prior to 1984 because they done a better job than any government agency could do(Local councils can also rate media for their own areas), they are as independent as they ever were, operate to their own mandate, the government have ZERO influence on them.
 

deftangel

took a programming course
jipe said:
I don't really see why it matters that the BBFC is an NGO. The government seems to have mandated that certain types of media have to be classified by them, apparently even making it illegal not to obey their classifications. As far as I'm concerned, that effectively makes them an agent of the state.
The BBFC have a mandate, granted to them from government under the Video Recordings Act to regulate certain types of media so yes, in those terms they could be described as an agent of the state.

Agent of the state and independent of government do not have to be mutually exclusive however. The BBFC is funded by the industry, i.e. film, video and game distributors. In that sense, it might be a statutory regulator but there is a difference between it and a governmental one such as Ofcom. For example, the ultimate decision on the classification of a cinema film in the UK is down to the local council. It's just in most circumstances, they decide to accept the BBFC's recommended rating.
 
Wow, this sucks :( Does anyone think it could be the Wii controls that constituted the ban? I don't really see how Manhunt 2 could get banned just because of it's content. They say that they banned it because it's about killing and nothing else, but the original was like that as well! What is it about the sequel that is so bad that it could constitute a ban other than the Wii controls?
 
Rocked said:
What a load of crap... is there any way it could still be released here, or the decision be overturned? The game's gonna be notorious in the UK now and will probably have huge import sales, especially if the press pick up on it.

Grr.
There's not been a game banned here yet yet as far as I'm aware. I sincerely doubt Take Two will let it end here.
 
Stop It said:
If you looked at the BBFC site you'll find the opposite is true, the BBFC was formed by the industry, only 23 years ago did it get an official mandate by the government.
What I'm arguing is your claim that '[t]his is NOT the UK government censoring anything' because the BBFC is an independent organisation. I disagree with this, since the government has quite clearly decided that censorship for certain media could be beneficial, outsourcing the actual work to the BBFC.

If the government hadn't granted the BBFC this power, they obviously wouldn't be able to ban something like Manhunt, so I fail to see how this can be seen as anything but state-sponsored censorship.
 
Nuclear Muffin said:
Wow, this sucks :( Does anyone think it could be the Wii controls that constituted the ban? I don't really see how Manhunt 2 could get banned just because of it's content. They say that they banned it because it's about killing and nothing else, but the original was like that as well! What is it about the sequel that is so bad that it could constitute a ban other than the Wii controls?
Please read the thread. It was mentioned earlier that both the PS2 and Wii versions were submitted independently and both were rejected, so it is content, not control, that appears to have been the problem here.
 
Prine said:
BBFC might be a little more sesitive to videogames material after the whole Resistence ordeal
it's funny because they not long ago announced results of their own studies that found that video games were less harmful than films.
 
What about Postal 1 and especially 2? I havnt played Postal 2 (and i never will), but i know Postal 2 is a crazy violent game. Postal 1 was also violent in that sense, but the models were so small so there wasnt much details.
 

deftangel

took a programming course
jipe said:
What I'm arguing is your claim that '[t]his is NOT the UK government censoring anything' because the BBFC is an independent organisation. I disagree with this, since the government has quite clearly decided that censorship for certain media could be beneficial, outsourcing the actual work to the BBFC.

If the government hadn't granted the BBFC this power, they obviously wouldn't be able to ban something like Manhunt, so I fail to see how this can be seen as anything but state-sponsored censorship.
But then under that line of thought, all rating systems are state-sponsored censorship schemes (can anyone other than the state actually be behind censorship when you think about it?) Under those terms of reference, PEGI and the ESRB are state sponsored as well because if they didn't exist, the governments would step in to do it for them.
 
Cosmonaut X said:
Please read the thread. It was mentioned earlier that both the PS2 and Wii versions were submitted independently and both were rejected, so it is content, not control, that appears to have been the problem here.
Yeah I just noticed it, so I guess that means that the PSP version is still a go. Must mean that the PSP game is different from the Wii and PS2 ones then!
 

deftangel

took a programming course
Prine said:
BBFC might be a little more sesitive to videogames material after the whole Resistence ordeal
The BBFC hasn't even commented on that, essentially it has nothing to do with them (asides from the fact Resistance carries a 15 rating). I doubt it would have any bearing on their decision what-so-ever. There's been plenty of films and videos with violence in places of worship, probably even games too.

That's largely a matter between Sony and the CoE.
 
Android18a said:
*Stomping on turtles (murder)
*Digestion of mushrooms and other wild flora encouraged (drugs)
*He's Italian (ish), which says a lot here :p (filth)
*Stealing coins, tearing down flags, busting into castles (theft, criminal damage, illegal entry)

Super Mario should be an 18.


Bleeders said:
Big Brother is watching you... telling you what to do... what you can and can't play etc.
Actually Big Brother is distracting you, and encouraging you to stay indoors and watch TV these days.


Have to admit that until I know EXACTLY why they haven't let the game through then i'm gonna fence sit.

Would you pass a game for even an 18 rating if it involved a section where you have to go into a school and brutally kill children to progress to the next section? Don't think I would. Not saying that ManHunt 2 has this kind of bit, but maybe it has something equally distasteful.
 
test_account said:
What about Postal 1 and especially 2? I havnt played Postal 2 (and i never will), but i know Postal 2 is a crazy violent game. Postal 1 was also violent in that sense, but the models were so small so there wasnt much details.
Postal 2 doesn't *force* you to commit violence. there are always non violent alternatives, and in some cases not engaging in violence is preferrable. violence is an option not a requirement. plus Postal 2 is pretty heavily steeped in satire.

their problem with Manhunt 2 is in no small part due to what they call the 'game’s unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying and the sheer lack of alternative pleasures on offer to the gamer'.

i don't care if Manhunt 2 forces you to kill babies. i don't believe that anything should be banned for content.

i wouldn't play a game that made me kill babies. i'm an adult. i don't need someone to make that decision for me.
 
deftangel said:
But then under that line of thought, all rating systems are state-sponsored censorship schemes (can anyone other than the state actually be behind censorship when you think about it?)
Yes, effective censorship probably requires the assistance of the state. My sole point here is that it is wrong to claim that this decision is NOT an example of state censorship.


deftangel said:
Under those terms of reference, PEGI and the ESRB are state sponsored as well because if they didn't exist, the governments would step in to do it for them.
If a rating organisation hasn't been granted any special powers by the state, I wouldn't say it's state-sponsored (ie. they might want to ban something, but they wouldn't be able to call on the powers of the state to enforce such a ban).
 
plagiarize said:
Postal 2 doesn't *force* you to commit violence. there are always non violent alternatives, and in some cases not engaging in violence is preferrable. it just allows you to commit violence. plus Postal 2 is pretty heavily steeped in satire.

their problem with Manhunt 2 is in no small part due to what they call the 'game’s unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying and the sheer lack of alternative pleasures on offer to the gamer'.
Ah ok, tnx for the info :) I was actually thinking about that earlier, is it possible to play Manhunt without doing all the killing or is the whole point with the game to kill as many people as possible in the most horrible way (so you get more points)?
 

deftangel

took a programming course
test_account said:
What about Postal 1 and especially 2? I havnt played Postal 2 (and i never will), but i know Postal 2 is a crazy violent game. Postal 1 was also violent in that sense, but the models were so small so there wasnt much details.
Both Postal's were passed uncut by the BBFC in the UK.

Yeah I just noticed it, so I guess that means that the PSP version is still a go. Must mean that the PSP game is different from the Wii and PS2 ones then!
Not necessarily. The BBFC only issues different certificates to games if there are content differences between them. Otherwise that classification can apply to any platform it's released on. Asides from the controls, there are differences in content between the PS2 and Wii versions of Manhunt 2, according to Wikipedia anyway. Nothing is mentioned specifically about the PSP version so it could be the same as PS2, it could yet to be submitted like you say.