Mark Cerny thinks 8TF is the minimum for native 4K gaming

I think the PS4 Pro will flop because many people don't see the point of it. It can't do native 4K on most games, it doesn't have a 4K Bluray drive, and it won't have any exclusive games or features. It just doesn't make sense to me why Sony would choose to fragment their platform this way. I'd be surprised if we see Sony pull the same stunt with the PS5.
What doesn't make sense about better graphics?...that's all you need to tell people...it's over twice as powerful, and their games will look and run better...done

THATS the point of it...

Also, the Pro can't really flop...it's just a PS4...Sony doesn't care if you buy a regular PS4 or a Pro...they just want you in their ecosystem buying games and services...

If it doesn't sell well then we won't see a PS5 Pro, no big deal for Sony...but I have a suspicion that when it comes to the Pro, the average consumer is going to be just fine figuring out what the thing does...it's the intentionally obtuse GAF poster causing most of the problems here on the forums...
 
Casual gamers won't spend extra money on something they don't see the benefit of. The fact that they haven't yet jumped into the current-gen proves that they are price conscious. If they don't see a lot of difference between the base and pro PS4 then they will choose the cheaper option.


I think the PS4 Pro will flop because many people don't see the point of it. It can't do native 4K on most games, it doesn't have a 4K Bluray drive, and it won't have any exclusive games or features. It just doesn't make sense to me why Sony would choose to fragment their platform this way. I'd be surprised if we see Sony pull the same stunt with the PS5.
The heck they won't. I spent years in support back in the day watching them do just that. It doesn't take much to convince people who don't know any better why or how something is an improvement. These people buy shit they don't need every day for that exact reason. If you're talking about a particular subset that only hasn't jumped on as of yet, then maybe, but Sony doesn't care anyhow if they buy the cheaper option. They're in the Sony ecosystem either way.

Its not fragmented(not even sure why you said it is when it wont have exclusive games), they give people additional power and more stable system for the same price as launch. And the 4k bluray piece people arent buying blurays as much anymore, sony saw most people were streaming stuff and placed focus on that im sure you will see more and better offerings because of it.

and all average consumers will see is that its a new machine with extra power built in. I dont understand how this is a hard sell, its no different that going from a iphone 6 to an iphone 6s etc you guys are totally missing the point lol.
Exactly what I'm saying. People buy high end TVs not knowing the details of the benefits, phones, cameras, etc, yet for some reason, this same group of people have become price and spec conscious?
 
I think the PS4 Pro will flop because many people don't see the point of it. It can't do native 4K on most games, it doesn't have a 4K Bluray drive, and it won't have any exclusive games or features. It just doesn't make sense to me why Sony would choose to fragment their platform this way. I'd be surprised if we see Sony pull the same stunt with the PS5.
Its not fragmented(not even sure why you said it is when it wont have exclusive games), they give people additional power and more stable system for the same price as launch. And the 4k bluray piece people arent buying blurays as much anymore, sony saw most people were streaming stuff and placed focus on that im sure you will see more and better offerings because of it.

and all average consumers will see is that its a new machine with extra power built in. I dont understand how this is a hard sell, its no different that going from a iphone 6 to an iphone 6s etc you guys are totally missing the point lol.
 
What doesn't make sense about better graphics?...that's all you need to tell people...it's over twice as powerful, and their games will look and run better...done

THATS the point of it...

Also, the Pro can't really flop...it's just a PS4...Sony doesn't care if you buy a regular PS4 or a Pro...they just want you in their ecosystem buying games and services...

If it doesn't sell well then we won't see a PS5 Pro, no big deal for Sony...but I have a suspicion that when it comes to the Pro, the average consumer is going to be just fine figuring out what the thing does...it's the intentionally obtuse GAF poster causing most of the problems here on the forums...
Thanks for saying exactly what I was thinking.
+1

Also wanted to add, the people that don't want a PS5 at launch can get the PS4 Pro on the cheap instead. I just will never see how PS4 Pro is a bad thing.
 
What doesn't make sense about better graphics?...that's all you need to tell people...it's over twice as powerful, and their games will look and run better...done

THATS the point of it...

Also, the Pro can't really flop...it's just a PS4...Sony doesn't care if you buy a regular PS4 or a Pro...they just want you in their ecosystem buying games and services...

If it doesn't sell well then we won't see a PS5 Pro, no big deal for Sony...but I have a suspicion that when it comes to the Pro, the average consumer is going to be just fine figuring out what the thing does...it's the intentionally obtuse GAF poster causing most of the problems here on the forums...
Marginally better graphics. I don't think the graphical bump offered with the Pro will influence most people to upgrade or new comers looking to save some money to spend an extra $100 for the Pro especially when they don't yet have a 4K TV.

And, the Pro can flop. Sony is looking to sell a specific amount of that SKU to justify the time and money spent developing it. The Pro has already disrupted the success of the base PS4 and allowed Microsoft to gain ground since the Xbox One has been outselling the PS4 for the past few months. What if that trend continues after the Pro's release? Sony totally misread Microsoft with the Pro. I guess it was supposed to counter the Scorpio, but it won't even be able to do that.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Lol, what's wrong with my man JC?
JC has called himself out on his lack of people skills. Doesn't make him a bad guy or anything but he is not a very interesting or personable speaker to watch on stage. Know's his shit like no one else but Cerny, while a bi monotone and bland, is less awkward on stage as Carmack.
 
Exactly what I'm saying. People buy high end TVs not knowing the details of the benefits, phones, cameras, etc, yet for some reason, this same group of people have become price and spec conscious?
Right All i see is that damn 3 years later i can get more bang for the same buck i paid back then? thats amazing. and the price point is so good that most people will gravitate to the pro anyway unless they are totally budget conscious.

Meanwhile they can still play with friends who still have the OG PS4 with zero problems and still take advantage of new tech its a win - win scenario. This maybe more for a newer audience but allows people who want extra power in their system to take advantage.

Marginally better graphics. I don't think the graphical bump offered with the Pro will influence most people to upgrade or new comers looking to save some money to spend an extra $100 for the Pro especially when they don't yet have a 4K TV.

And, the Pro can flop. Sony is looking to sell a specific amount of that SKU to justify the time and money spent developing it. The Pro has already disrupted the success of the base PS4 and allowed Microsoft to gain ground since the Xbox One has been outselling the PS4 for the past few months. What if that trend continues after the Pro's release? Sony totally misread Microsoft with the Pro. I guess it was supposed to counter the Scorpio, but it won't even be able to do that.

Define Marginal. have you actually seen the demos on a 4k screen from the presentation? it does not sound like it at all. And all these assertations you are making are purely poor opinion how about you wait until after the holiday season to make that claim of disruption and Sony came out first MS are the ones who were scrambling im not sure why the hell people keep making it seem like it was Microsofts idea first lmao.
 
Marginally better graphics. I don't think the graphical bump offered with the Pro will influence most people to upgrade or new comers looking to save some money to spend an extra $100 for the Pro especially when they don't yet have a 4K TV.

And, the Pro can flop. Sony is looking to sell a specific amount of that SKU to justify the time and money spent developing it. The Pro has already disrupted the success of the base PS4 and allowed Microsoft to gain ground since the Xbox One has been outselling the PS4 for the past few months. What if that trend continues after the Pro's release? Sony totally misread Microsoft with the Pro. I guess it was supposed to counter the Scorpio, but it won't even be able to do that.
You dont know what the "graphical bump" will be. Games will run better on the pro and you dont need a 4k tv to reap the benefits. Its really not a hard concept to grasp.
 
I don't think it was a coincidence that the Scorpio and Pro were announced around the same time with both companies waving the 4K banner.

Didn't everyone know about the pro well before Scorpio was announced or am I getting mixed up?

I always thought Scorpio was announced just to counteract the pro
 
Define Marginal. have you actually seen the demos on a 4k screen from the presentation? it does not sound like it at all. And all these assertations you are making are purely poor opinion how about you wait until after the holiday season to make that claim of disruption and Sony came out first MS are the ones who were scrambling im not sure why the hell people keep making it seem like it was Microsofts idea first lmao.
I say marginal because the Pro doesn't offer a huge leap in graphics - only incremental. Most people don't yet have a 4K TV and the benefit for 1080p gameplay will be even smaller.

I didn't say MS had the idea first. I just stated the fact that the Scorpio will be more powerful when it is released next year. Sony only has 1 year to use that "most powerful console" tagline for the Pro. They misread the competition.
 

Clear

This post contains disingenuous arguments meant to disguise my fanboyism. Reader beware!
In my opinion, Cerny just admitted that the PS4 Pro is a console that is releasing too soon which is what I've been saying all along. My stance has been that Sony should just wait until native 4K/60 FPS is affordable for the console market. Releasing the Pro this holiday season just doesn't make a lot of sense especially when not many people have 4K TVs right now. Sony would have just been better off riding the success of the PS4 until 2018 when they can release a PS5 that would outperform the Scorpio. I don't get why Sony is so anxious to release this new hardware when both the technology and consumer market aren't ready for it.
Why should Sony hold off when they have the opportunity to steal a year-long march on their primary competitor?

Its not just what the Pro sells in the remainder of calendar year 2016, its what it sells over the first 10-11 months of 2017, the period when MS is rarely competitive with its first-party software and when Sony typically is at their strongest. Its an opportunity to gain even more market and mindshare which is critical given that the goal is to get users to buy in to their ecosystem.

As to people reacting to the sales of the PS4 Slim being relatively slow, what do you think is going to happen to the Xbone S when Scorpio is 3 months out from release?
Considering the projected spec difference, who the hell is going to want to buy the current model unless the price difference is really substantial?

Right now, MS banging the drum about Scorpio is mainly to their advantage, but inevitably they are going to find themselves facing the exact same conundrum that Sony is having to deal with: Specifically, how do you evangelize your new sku without tanking the sales of the current one and crucially making damn sure your extant users don't feel like they've wasted their money.

Sony aren't the ones who in 12 months or thereabouts are going to be needing to find ways of saying, "oh yeah that quasi-4K upgrade box we sold you last year isn't really our proper 4K offering, that's this one... > $399.99 please!"
 
I say marginal because the Pro doesn't offer a huge leap in graphics - only incremental. Most people don't yet have a 4K TV and the benefit for 1080p gameplay will be even smaller.

I didn't say MS had the idea first. I just stated the fact that the Scorpio will be more powerful when it is released next year. Sony only has 1 year to use that "most powerful console" tagline for the Pro. They misread the competition.
what do you mean misread, what would reading the competition correctly look like?
 
Didn't everyone know about the pro well before Scorpio was announced or am I getting mixed up?

I always thought Scorpio was announced just to counteract the pro
I don't think either manufacturer was reacting. That would mean that MS would rush Scorpio's development schedule to under 2 years and that's not realistic.

I think both came to the same conclusion with slightly different ideas on how to handle it.
 
Didn't everyone know about the pro well before Scorpio was announced or am I getting mixed up?

I always thought Scorpio was announced just to counteract the pro
Actually the Scorpio was officially announced first at E3 2016. But there were rumors and leaks from the PS4 Pro (PS4 Neo) before that. There were also some leaks about the Scorpio too but not as much and specific like with the PS4 Pro.

It seems both companies had the same ideas what to do next but just differentiate in their execution on the "4K/closing power gap to PC" idea.
 
I don't think either manufacturer was reacting. That would mean that MS would rush Scorpio's development schedule to under 2 years and that's not realistic.

I think both came to the same conclusion with slightly different ideas on how to handle it.
pretty much this. I do think one of them chose to announce sooner than they originally planned though
 
This is why they went PS4 Pro and not the Scorpio route.

I still remain very skeptical st Scorpio'/ ability to play 4K games at any reasonable performance or quality levels.
 
And just like nVidia FLOPS != AMD FLOPS, Polaris FLOPS != Vega FLOPS, in other words, you have no idea what Scorpio will be capable of.
Not really, Polaris and Vega are still based on the same architecture, so FLOPS are far more comparable. And since when has been confirmed that the Scorpio will have a Vega GPU anyway?
 
Marginally better graphics. I don't think the graphical bump offered with the Pro will influence most people to upgrade or new comers looking to save some money to spend an extra $100 for the Pro especially when they don't yet have a 4K TV.

And, the Pro can flop. Sony is looking to sell a specific amount of that SKU to justify the time and money spent developing it. The Pro has already disrupted the success of the base PS4 and allowed Microsoft to gain ground since the Xbox One has been outselling the PS4 for the past few months. What if that trend continues after the Pro's release? Sony totally misread Microsoft with the Pro. I guess it was supposed to counter the Scorpio, but it won't even be able to do that.
There are benefits like supersampling, and better quality & performance modes on 1080p displays as well.

Outsold in two countries. UK is just a small part of Europe. What if the sales return to what they were once Pro is out?

The Pro was rumored about before Scorpio. Since the latter was just vaguely announced, it's safer to assume it was supposed to counter Pro.
 
I remember there was a big thread where it was rumored that MS was making an iterative console and people lost their shit. Saying it was a bad idea and that MS was killing the console generation as we knew it. Then people started dropping rumors about the Pro and the hysteria died down a lot. That was a funny time. But even before all of that a Sony exec made a comment about what it would be like to have a souped up PS4 so I really don't think either company was shook by the other.
 
This is why they went PS4 Pro and not the Scorpio route.

I still remain very skeptical st Scorpio'/ ability to play 4K games at any reasonable performance or quality levels.
That statement makes no sense to me as the specs of the PS4 Pro are lower than the assumed specs of the Scorpio.

Edit:
In addition to that we learned that existing games without a "Pro patch" will run like on any other PS4 out there. So the case for the PS4 Pro is really to play on a 4K TV or to have a better quality on 1080p for upcoming games or games that get that patch. I would assume at least the same for the Scorpio and then some.
 
That statement makes no sense as the specs of the PS4 Pro are even more restricted. So what is the reason for having a Pro for you then again?
I think he means they chose to offer 4k-ish games at a modest cost instead of going all out with power and promising native and potentially disappointing people if they miss that target
 
I think he means they chose to offer 4k-ish games at a modest cost instead of going all out with power and promising native and potentially disappointing people if they miss that target
Will it really be that big of a deal if MS gimps their 1st party games a bit to hit 4K native? That's the only thing they promised, right? I could see them cutting a corner here and there to keep up with their marketing. Sucks for fans of those games but MS may have no choice.
 
Will it really be that big of a deal if MS gimps their 1st party games a bit to hit 4K native? That's the only thing they promised, right? I could see them cutting a corner here and there to keep up with their marketing. Sucks for fans of those games but MS may have no choice.
nah I think all first party games will look great and be native 4k no issue. I would not be surprised to see some 3rd party games use some kind of fancy rendering technique to reach 4k-ish just like the PS4 Pro but I think that will have a negative reaction from what people expect from the Scorpio at this point given that Microsoft has been stressing native so hard.
 
I think he means they chose to offer 4k-ish games at a modest cost instead of going all out with power and promising native and potentially disappointing people if they miss that target
You were too fast as I edited my post a little bit :)

But to answer to your assumption: We don't know the pricing for the Scorpio yet nor do we know the exact specs of it.

And about disappointment: I was on the fence for the PS4 Pro when the first rumors came up but since I lost all interest because of some odd design decisions Sony made.

So now I am on the fence for the Scorpio but I also will only buy the thing if Microsoft is able to do some of the following things with Scorpio:

a) Ensure that the existing catalog runs better out of the box and not the same like on the PS4 Pro (should be possible because they use virualizing techniques on their Xbox One consoles right now)

b) Demostrate that native 4K is possible not only for 1st party games but multiplatform too

c) Ensure an reasonable prise not higher than $499

d) Include an UHD BluRay player
 
Will it really be that big of a deal if MS gimps their 1st party games a bit to hit 4K native? That's the only thing they promised, right? I could see them cutting a corner here and there to keep up with their marketing. Sucks for fans of those games but MS may have no choice.
They should be able to hit 4K just fine on their 1st party titles, especially on games that are 1080p on the XBO. You can hit 4K@30fps on many games with a 6 TFLOPS GPU when matching console settings.

nah I think all first party games will look great and be native 4k no issue. I would not be surprised to see some 3rd party games use some kind of fancy rendering technique to reach 4k-ish just like the PS4 Pro but I think that will have a negative reaction from what people expect from the Scorpio at this point given that Microsoft has been stressing native so hard.
To be fair, they've been just as open that there is no mandate for developers and they can use the power however way they like.

Did Sony just under sell their own console? Lmao.
Not at all. They've been open and honest with their intentions with the Pro. I don't think his comment has anything to do with the Pro.
 
nah I think all first party games will look great and be native 4k no issue. I would not be surprised to see some 3rd party games use some kind of fancy rendering technique to reach 4k-ish just like the PS4 Pro but I think that will have a negative reaction from what people expect from the Scorpio at this point given that Microsoft has been stressing native so hard.
Oh, ok. I only ever saw the 1st party statement and then the part where someone (Spencer?) said 3rd party devs were free to use the extra power however they liked.

Did Sony just under sell their own console? Lmao.
No, they've been explicit that the Pro wasn't made for native 4K. Mr. Mark kind of under sold the Scorpion but that's to be expected and not a dumb move imo.
 
Oh, ok. I only ever saw the 1st party statement and then the part where someone (Spencer?) said 3rd party devs were free to use the extra power however they liked. .
I don't necessarily mean Microsoft is trying to force devs to do one thing or the other, I just mean I think people are expecting native 4k from this thing and the first 3rd party game to break that is going to be somewhat controversial
 

Shpeshal Ed

aka Collingwood
It's not moving the goalposts. The point was that the XB1 had worse visuals than the PS4 AND cost more at launch. It simply made no sense to pay more for less. In all these discussions about the PS4 Pro and Scorpio, too many people keep forgetting to account for price. A $500+ Scorpio that only looks marginally better than a PS4 Pro if you are sitting close to the screen doesn't make any sense either.
Firstly, it won't be $500. It just won't

That aside, I don't think Microsoft and Sony are going for the same thing with Pro and Scorpio. My guess is, Sony is using the Pro as a holdover until they can ready up the PS5, with the Pro being more than capable enough for most people to satisfy them. I suspect Microsoft wants Scorpio to be the "base model" gateway console into their ecosystem for close to a decade.

As an example, let's take OnQ's FP32/16 theory and apply it to Scorprio as we currently know it. If it's a 6TF FP32 console, then we can assume (not know) that it would be capable of 12TF FP16 performance. In this instance, it should allow Scorprio to continue to play newer games well into the future even if it means reduced resolutions and performance. It allows Microsoft to continue to drive the cost of Scorprio down over the years and continue to sell it as a cheap option to enter the Xbox ecosystem before deciding to later upgrade to the newer system. Much like Apple kept the iPad 2 around even after the 3 and 4 were done.
 

etta

my hard graphic balls
I think he means they chose to offer 4k-ish games at a modest cost instead of going all out with power and promising native and potentially disappointing people if they miss that target
Wasn't that what Microsoft did with the Xbox One, not design it for the highest graphics. Althouh instead of doing so to keep the price down, they chose to shove Kinect in the box.
Man it would have been such a different outcome if they had a $349/$399 base model beneath the $499 Kinect model at launch.