Mark Cerny thinks 8TF is the minimum for native 4K gaming

Jun 10, 2013
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I'm by no means a computer expert but I'm still confused why people think Microsoft won't be able to hit native 4k on the Scorpio.

Most games will probably Target 30 frames and if not all they have to do is dial back settings to hit that native 4K. Being able to Target one single setup should help developers hit that 4K magic number a lot easier.

I was able to play max Payne 3 in 4k at 30 fps pretty easy on a 7870. Scorpio will be much more powerful than that.
Heck last of us will support native 4k on pro right?
Because a whole lot of people here are obsessed with gauging everything on PC Ultra settings, which is absurd considering how little you gain from cranking settings up to levels that consume a massive amount of resources. The Scorpio should be plenty capable of running any current gen game at current console settings at 4K. It will probably even be able to do 4K on the same games with higher settings depending on the final CPU and RAM specs.
 
Aug 6, 2013
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I'm by no means a computer expert but I'm still confused why people think Microsoft won't be able to hit native 4k on the Scorpio.
It's not so much that they can't, but that they won't choose to given what they have to sacrifice to get there.

Most games will probably Target 30 frames and if not all they have to do is dial back settings to hit that native 4K. Being able to Target one single setup should help developers hit that 4K magic number a lot easier.
You could make the same argument about 1080p on the Xbox One, but that's not what happened. We got a lot of 900p titles instead in order to achieve the per-pixel quality and effects that help sell a modern game as being a distinct step up from last generation. A slightly softer image is generally seen as a more acceptable compromise.

Heck last of us will support native 4k on pro right?
Right, and it's a last-generation title.
 
Nov 30, 2014
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Well, Cerny is not wrong. For native 4K rendering at above console grade settings, you definitely need at least 8TFlops. But for console level settings, I think even a GTX 1060, around 5TFlops can do it, at 30FPS, of course.

Either way, due to how taxing native 4K rendering can be, I really hope my predictions of a 14 TFlops PS5 in 2020 comes true.
 
Apr 7, 2006
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Did you read my comment you quoted? You talked about the likelihood of a 120fps non-VR game launching.

Even the examples you listed are the exception rather than the norm. There are still far more games launching at 30fps for a reason.
The point was simple, no game is overshadowed because it runs at a higher framerate, 60fps or 120fps. A game is not seen as better just because it's 30fps. It does not always mean the 30fps game will have better visuals either, that's a myth.

At the end of the day what counts is gameplay and this is what makes or breaks a game. It's also obvious that higher framerates will help in that regard with fluid controller response and motion acuity.

I have no problems with 30fps games tbh, but the days of aiming for 30fps only to get games that are constantly 25fps and falls to the teens is something that has to be addressed, because it's a problem. We have left 240p, 480p, 720p behind, it's about time we left 30fps as a target behind as well.....

I think we can revisit this thread when the new gen consoles launch, I say there will be 120Hz games VR and standard and support for 8k as well. We can bookmark this till then.
 
Aug 5, 2011
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I'm by no means a computer expert but I'm still confused why people think Microsoft won't be able to hit native 4k on the Scorpio.

Most games will probably Target 30 frames and if not all they have to do is dial back settings to hit that native 4K. Being able to Target one single setup should help developers hit that 4K magic number a lot easier.

I was able to play max Payne 3 in 4k at 30 fps pretty easy on a 7870. Scorpio will be much more powerful than that.

Heck last of us will support native 4k on pro right?
It's pretty simple. Going off current PC tech the specs of Scorpio look too low to deliver reliable 4K for current AAA games at high/ultra settings.

Of course it'll be able to support 4K games but with its specs, unless MS pull off something very clever with the architecture and SDK, there will be compromises to deliver 4K vs what PC can support.

Around 8TF and up (more like 10TF truth be told) is where you'd be in a position to probably support pretty much all AAA games as they exist today at high/ultra settings with reliable frame rate.

Heck the PS4 could support native 4K provided the game was designed accordingly.

He's just noting a number where you're probably able to support a majority of high end games in 4K and Scorpio's specs are a bit below that (PS4 Pro's specs are even further below it hence the checkerboard upscale technique).

So he's not saying it won't support 4K he's saying (indirectly) it won't support say pushing Witcher 3 at Ultra at 4K or whatever AAA high end graphic games we get by next year and he's probably right.

It will support them in 4K but with some effects dialed back most likely is the other way to look at it.
 
Oct 6, 2010
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The point was simple, no game is overshadowed because it runs at a higher framerate, 60fps or 120fps. A game is not seen as better just because it's 30fps. It does not always mean the 30fps game will have better visuals either, that's a myth.

At the end of the day what counts is gameplay and this is what makes or breaks a game. It's also obvious that higher framerates will help in that regard with fluid controller response and motion acuity.

I have no problems with 30fps games tbh, but the days of aiming for 30fps only to get games that are constantly 25fps and falls to the teens is something that has to be addressed, because it's a problem. We have left 240p, 480p, 720p behind, it's about time we left 30fps as a target behind as well.....

I think we can revisit this thread when the new gen consoles launch, I say there will be 120Hz games VR and standard and support for 8k as well. We can bookmark this till then.
I don't think pointing to well established AAA franchises that would not be overshadowed anyways helps your point here.

Let's say you and I are making a console exclusive game in the same genre with a similar theme. I shoot for 120fps while you aim for 30fps. Both games have solid mechanics and ideas but your game looks more 2x better than mine. Do you really think my game would impress as much in screenshots and other forms of PR? The benefits of higher frame rates is a lot harder to market than prettier graphics. You generally have to get the game in people's hands for them to feel the advantages but again that's made harder due to the difficulty in marketing the benefits.

Not to mention that there are still a lot of 60Hz displays out there. So the smooth looking gameplay of a 120fps title will be lost on a large chunk of the market. If higher frame rates were such a priority with gamers, more of them would be on the PC.

As for 8K games...

 
May 20, 2009
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Lmao, you always seem one response away from losing your shit behind these consoles. MS did catch flack for saying they "didn't target the highest graphics" and saying their strategy was to have a "balanced" console. It actually happened. Their shit was under powered and they came out and said it
They actually went to extraordinary lengths to deny that their console was under powered.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80168873&postcount=708

Performance: I’m not dismissing raw performance. I’m stating – as I have stated from the beginning – that the performance delta between the two platforms is not as great as the raw numbers lead the average consumer to believe. There are things about our system architecture not fully understood, and there are things about theirs as well, that bring the two systems into balance.

People DO understand that Microsoft has some of the smartest graphics programmers IN THE WORLD. We CREATED DirectX, the standard API’s that everyone programs against. So while people laude Sony for their HW skills, do you really think we don’t know how to build a system optimized for maximizing graphics for programmers? Seriously? There is no way we’re giving up a 30%+ advantage to Sony. And ANYONE who has seen both systems running could say there are great looking games on both systems. If there was really huge performance difference – it would be obvious.

I get a ton of hate for saying this – but it’s been the same EVERY generation. Sony claims more power, they did it with Cell, they did it with Emotion Engine, and they are doing it again. And, in the end, games on our system looked the same or better.

I’m not saying they haven’t built a good system – I’m merely saying that anyone who wants to die on their sword over this 30%+ power advantage are going to be fighting an uphill battle over the next 10 years…
 
Likes: daibaron
Mar 20, 2012
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That wasn't my point, I just found it funny to see the "Sony was honest with their intentions of not going for native 4K" when Microsoft said the same thing, "we didn't design it for the best graphics", and they got shit for that honesty.
They didn't come out and say balance right away, what are you talking about, there were PR people downplaying the differences between PS4 and X1 extensively.

And this is on top of the terrible TVTVTV reveal, bad PR with some exces contradicting the other on DRM, and the consumer perception of "why does X1 costs more than PS4 when it's weaker?" "I don't want Kinect" etc...

why would you take that one comment MS said about balance out of context and compare it here? It makes no sense, and Cerny is just talking about a baseline and not even comparing consoles.
 
Nov 6, 2014
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They didn't come out and say balance right away, what are you talking about, there were PR people downplaying the differences between PS4 and X1 extensively.

And this is on top of the terrible TVTVTV reveal, bad PR with some exces contradicting the other on DRM, and the consumer perception of "why does X1 costs more than PS4 when it's weaker?" "I don't want Kinect" etc...

why would you take that one comment MS said about balance out of context and compare it here? It makes no sense, and Cerny is just talking about a baseline and not even comparing consoles.
People are just going to see what they want to see. As shown in the quote above your post, MS was definitely trying to play up the graphics angle.
 
Oct 10, 2014
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People are just going to see what they want to see. As shown in the quote above your post, MS was definitely trying to play up the graphics angle.
Well that will be always true , isn't? Some people just answers to the post which are in line with there arguments while completely ignoring the ones which are against(most of the time which are making sense). LOL i guess?
 
Nov 1, 2006
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Nov 6, 2014
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Well that will be always true , isn't? Some people just answers to the post which are in line with there arguments while completely ignoring the ones which are against(most of the time which are making sense). LOL i guess?
It's just displayed in how people remember or interpret events I guess. It's still baffling how people were upset early-on in the thread because Sony wasn't hyping up the console with misinformation. Now we're on to the saying that's what MS attempted to do with the X1, when we all know that isn't true.
 
Nov 10, 2015
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I don't understand why this is so diffcult for people to gauge.

These things are PC's. They have a custom, branded case, but that's one of the few major differences.

The scorpio will have a 6 TF AMD GPU, and likely something a bit beefier than the current AMD CPU in the Xbox one.

What can that do?

In practice, about the same as a current AMD R9 390X. Which by benchmarks you're looking at 30 FPS at highish settings on most games. Prossibly 60 on less demanding games or with settings closer to a current console (medium with some low and some high settings).

There's some caveats, sure. Open world games will tend to be more CPU locked, for example, but that's likely what you'll get.

This isn't rocket science.
 
May 6, 2012
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They actually went to extraordinary lengths to deny that their console was under powered.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80168873&postcount=708
Ah good times, remember PS4 unbalanced nonsense that was started by Microsoft insiders?
"Sure, it was wrapped up with a lot of other dumb shit that they were doing, but it did happen."

You missed my next line. "Balanced" and "We didn't target the highest graphics" absolutely happened, got shitted on and if I'm not mistaken you were around for it.
They also said PS4 was unbalanced. If i recall correctly, the whole balanced discussion staretd when Cerny said PS4 was not entirely round, it had more ALU than usual and that was to encourage developers to use GPGPU aka Async Compute. That got turned into PS4 being unbalanced and the whole 14+4 CU thing.

I love console gaming and the hysteria that happens during console launches.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=640423

Click link.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

Ctrl F "balance"
 
We have most definitely had high end premium consoles. The only difference was that they were only differentiated by hard drive size. Now we are also getting CPU and/or GPU improvements.

There is no basis for your relationship between Scorpio and the One. You just stated it as a fact. The closest relationship we have to the Scorpio is the PS4 Pro. As I quoted, it was priced at $500 with its current specs + improved CPU. That's below what the specs of Scorpio is so we know that Scorpio is going to cost more than that.

Everything you've said is just your HOPE that Microsoft with subsidize the price down. That doesn't make sense because consoles aren't highly subsidized this gen and even if they were, nobody subsidizes their high end product. If you are going to subsidize a product, you do it to your low end because it is targeted towards the people who are most price sensitive. After all, that's why you have a low end in the first place.

Edit:
I take that back a bit. If anything, Microsoft will subsidize Scorpio down to $500.

Edit x2:

For a hint to Microsoft's thoughts on pricing, the 2TB Xbox One S Gears of War is going for $450 right now. How much more hardware do you think the Scorpio will have over that? And you somehow think Scorpio will sell for $50 less? Inconceivable!
We don't "know" anything about its price. You are talking about the other guypresuming things as fact yet you do the same thing. Also comparing it to a "limited ed" premium themed console is asinine. Base xb1s is $299 now, likely (but not guaranteed) $249 by the time scorpio releases. That leaves a lot of room for a 'base' 500gb scorpio to launch at $399 or $449.

Bottom line is we are all making assumptions about price until MS says something, likely at E3 2017. So arguing about price is just plain silly. Oh shit... that means I am being silly right now. Doh!
 
Oct 23, 2012
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IThe scorpio will have a 6 TF AMD GPU, and likely something a bit beefier than the current AMD CPU in the Xbox one.

What can that do?

In practice, about the same as a current AMD R9 390X.
Well, a 390x plus the architectural improvements from polaris and likely vega. So probably a good bit better than a 390x.
 
Jun 30, 2016
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I would be disappointed if we get only only 8TF. At least 10-12TF combined with MUCH stronger and capable 8 core zen cpu @minimum of 2.5ghz
 
These next gen consoles could ship with 24tfs and fantastic CPUs with games custom built for the hardware and spec... You will still get games dropping below 4k and dropping below 30fps...

A machine doesn't dictate what's drawn on the screen. The artist does. And the problem has never been "under powered machines", the problem has always been developers not knowing when to cut back, pair back and optimise. Simple as that.... And that isn't about to change any time soon, sadly. So you can live in the dream of every game being 4k at least, and 60fps (hell even 30fps) locked... But that wont happen unless MS/Sony put a mandate on it being a required feature. Which just isn't something they would ever do.
 
Dec 16, 2015
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Why do you say that? It’s not like Xbox one X is running native 4K for every game.

If he was saying it as an opinion of what he thinks should be the minimum then that is one thing, but if he is trying to state it as a fact then it's already been shot full of holes. The man knows what he is talking about, but also is employed by a game company so he will say intelligent things sprinkled with salty biased too...Both the X and the Pro run many games at native 4k between them so....
 
Apr 7, 2006
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Cerny was so on the money, it aint even funny....

4.2TF was not going to do 4k at ultra settings/high settings, so cerny knew he had to do something to get a crisp image on a 4k screen with a reduced footprint from 4k native, hence CB. He knew 6TF could not do it, hence why so many XBONEX games are at 1800p and below. Even some 4k games on the XBONEX are way below ultra settings like PUBG with medium to low settings and yet awful framerates......and even some of the games where XBONEX try to push too far in terms of rez are lagging behind the PRO in the framerate department, some even with worse graphcial settings like in Fortnite.......

Yes, 8TF seems likely to be able to do this gen's games at 4k at ultra settings at 30fps/60fps....I'm pretty sure if the XBONEX had 8TF it would be able to do even it's own first party games at at MAX settings at 4k. So like PC, Forza 7 would have all sliders to the right, Gears, Forza Horizon etc.......at ultra settings.
 
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GoldenEye98

posts news as their odd job
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It isn't a static target though. You can probably run most games @ 4K from 3 or 4 years ago with less than 8 Tflops. And I'm sure games released in 2020 will require more than 8Tflops to run at 4K. Resolution is only one aspect.
 
Sep 18, 2017
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Both the X and the Pro run many games at native 4k between them so....
Sure, but especially when it comes to the Pro, you're either talking about rather simplistic graphics or ports of older games (and in turn, rather simplistic graphics). The statement is false if you take it absolutely, but I'm guessing the intention is more "current AAA-level graphics at 4K". A Pro runs HZD at 1920x2160 (i.e. half 4K, that is then checkerboarder to full 4K) with 4.2TF. To do native 4K, wouldn't it be reasonable to require twice that? How much that would be is left as an exercise to the reader.
 

Leonidas

"Ask me about computers"
Mar 6, 2007
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Seems to me that Cerny took the Tflop ratio of Xbox One X and Xbox One and applied it to PS4.

8 Tflops would only provide enough power for a "true 4K" PS4 machine, for next-gen they'll need more power, unless they want games looking very similar to 4x resolution PS4 games.
 
Mar 16, 2015
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These next gen consoles could ship with 24tfs and fantastic CPUs with games custom built for the hardware and spec... You will still get games dropping below 4k and dropping below 30fps...

A machine doesn't dictate what's drawn on the screen. The artist does. And the problem has never been "under powered machines", the problem has always been developers not knowing when to cut back, pair back and optimise. Simple as that.... And that isn't about to change any time soon, sadly. So you can live in the dream of every game being 4k at least, and 60fps (hell even 30fps) locked... But that wont happen unless MS/Sony put a mandate on it being a required feature. Which just isn't something they would ever do.
While I very much agree with elements if what you said and often say similar things. I don’t entirely agree. When Cerny said 8 he meant to run games at 4k with our current level of expectations based on what games at 1080/30 are capable of doing. Designing strictly for resolution makes no sense if you have to walk backwards. Equally it would make no sense on a future console if it lead to just walking in place and not moving forward.

That said, I totally agree that devs will continue to favour features and overwhelm hardware, if allowed to do so.
 
Oct 5, 2014
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I guess Cerny doesn't know what he's talking about.
Time has proven Mark Cerny 100% correct on this issue. Microsoft promised "uncompromised" native 4K gaming when they revealed Scorpio at E3 2016 yet 95% of enhanced Xbox One X games are dynamic and only a small fraction manage to maintain a native 4K image without dropping.

In future game threads when people discuss examples of rhetoric not matching reality, Scorpio will feature prominently.
 
That said, I totally agree that devs will continue to favour features and overwhelm hardware, if allowed to do so.
The trouble is, TF alone doesn't dictate what you are doing in a game. Its all based on your systems bottle neck. As I said previously, the problem with the mid gen refreshes is that they throw a lot of GPU grunt at things, but that's just to increase resolution on games already running on PS4/Xbox hardware. If the next gen systems come out with 12tf of power, but that power is still ignoring that a fast CPU is needed, then you will run into the same problems you have this generation.

Of course I doubt either company will produce another CPU limited system. They know their mistakes.
 
Jan 10, 2015
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Time has proven Mark Cerny 100% correct on this issue. Microsoft promised "uncompromised" native 4K gaming when they revealed Scorpio at E3 2016 yet 95% of enhanced Xbox One X games are dynamic and only a small fraction manage to maintain a native 4K image without dropping.

In future game threads when people discuss examples of rhetoric not matching reality, Scorpio will feature prominently.
hahahaha!!!!

k.