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Mark Cerny thinks 8TF is the minimum for native 4K gaming

O

Omnistalgic

Member
Incidentally, he mentioned that his personal estimate is that rendering at native 4K across the board would require a minimum of 8 teraFLOPS of computing power, and that’s not something that can be achieved at a reasonable price this year. That said, users will be able to discern the difference between games on PS4 and the improved versions on PS4 pro at a glance.
Click to expand...

Thought this was an interesting tidbit...If someone could verify Cerny and if he stated anything else that would be great. Looks like Dualshockers translated a Japanese interview. If Cerny is right, then perhaps the real world difference (Pro * Scorpio) won’t be as obvious as MS claims and both will be using customized software tricks to achieve the goal.

Thoughts?

Lock if Old.

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/rt/1026717.html Original Source from DS

http://www.dualshockers.com/2016/10...ibility-require-1-additional-work-developers/ Article from DS
 
F

FZZ

Banned
LMAO

Sony gonna go after him

But then again it's PS4 Pro and not 4K so I guess they won't be that mad
 
O

Omnistalgic

Member
FZZ said:
LMAO

Sony gonna go after him

But then again it's PS4 Pro and not 4K so I guess they won't be that mad
Click to expand...
On the contrary, I think Sony and Cerny are happy they are able to get higher quality PS4 games and are satisfied with getting to 4K with software techniques instead of Native. I can’t read the full interview (In Japanese) but this seems more like a slight jab at MS saying even 6TF is really not enough. So perhaps Scorpio will be cutting corners too?

I don’t think Native 4K for EVERY SINGLE PS4 game is really the goal of Pro, it’s just for the games to look better, cleaner, and run better, at any means necessary. Devs can use their own techniques even.
 
Y

Yuuichi

Member
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
Eh wouldn't this . more or less put more spotlight on Scorpio since they seem to boast the true 4k experience
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I agree. Even next year I don't see affordable 4k60 anywhere in the immediate future, given the 1080 ($600) struggles with it.

I think clever tricks is the way to go to be cost effective, the amount of money you would need to spend on things to even begin to be able to tell the difference is so staggering that there's simply no point in trying to achieve "real 4k gaming" right now, in my opinion.
 
P

Pachinko

Member
I feel like even 8 is a bit on the low side. I guess it depends how you want your games to look , I mean on PC it seems to take 10-12 TF to push 4K at 60 fps with a modern day full bore dx11/12 game engine. A direct X 9 level game though (say, something like Halo 4 or the last of us) can probably pull off 60 fps 4K with 8 tf.

This is also why I wouldn't get too pumped about scorpio , 2160p graphics at 30 fps will be do-able to roughly the same level as 1080p at 30 fps is right now , nothing more. That 4fold increase power will pretty much get funneled directly into driving that 4 fold increase in pixel count.

This is also why I feel we won't get a PS5 until Sony can package a 12TF device in a 400 USD box (2019 ? 2020?). Then you'll see a proper generational leap ahead of the PS4.
 
brickarts295

brickarts295

Member
Omnistalgic said:
On the contrary, I think Sony and Cerny are happy they are able to get higher quality PS4 games and are satisfied with getting to 4K with software techniques instead of Native. I can’t read the full interview (In Japanese) but this seems more like a slight jab at MS saying even 6TF is really not enough. So perhaps Scorpio will be cutting corners too?
Click to expand...

I honestly think that they are secretly happy if devs can at least manage a proper 1080p game with a high enough framerate. Pro is pretty much them testing the 4k water to see if they want to fully focus on that for PS5.
 
K

Kyoufu

Member
Sounds about right. I expect a lot of dynamic resolution/checkerboard rendering techniques to be implemented on Scorpio until the next generation of consoles are able to deliver AAA games at native 4K without cutting any corners.
 
S

Speely

Banned
That's a scary amount of TFLOPS. So scary, in fact, one might indeed call them...

... TERRORFLOPS.

Sorry, I'm in the holiday spirit.
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
Depends on the game. Scorpio definitely won't have native 4k for every game out there, but based on the power differential it will have a lot more than the PS4 Pro will, and when doing reconstruction will be doing it from a higher initial resolution.

I feel like the 4k push is a bit of a waste for both systems tbh. Then again we wouldn't have these systems if not for it.
 
B

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
Is this ever a doubt? 4K is roughly 4 times the resolution of 1080p, and 8TF is roughly 4 times the processing power of the PS4.

In fact, by the time consoles reach 8TF, that is only just sufficient to keep the graphical fidelity at today's level while increasing the resolution. It clearly wouldn't be enough even for console released in the future.
 
D

dogen

Member
Omnistalgic said:
On the contrary, I think Sony and Cerny are happy they are able to get higher quality PS4 games and are satisfied with getting to 4K with software techniques instead of Native. I can’t read the full interview (In Japanese) but this seems more like a slight jab at MS saying even 6TF is really not enough. So perhaps Scorpio will be cutting corners too?
Click to expand...

It depends on what games are trying to do. It also depends on how well utilized the compute power is being used, and how well a developer can leverage the higher FP16 and INT16 throughput. According to this, if you know what you're doing 16 bit precision is fine for most math in games.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/fp16-but-its-the-current-year.59725/#post-1950859
 
O

Omnistalgic

Member
brickarts295 said:
I honestly think that they are secretly happy if devs can at least manage a proper 1080p game with a high enough framerate. Pro is pretty much them testing the 4k water to see if they want to fully focus on that for PS5.
Click to expand...
True, rock solid 30 and 60 frames per second games will be a great way to close out this gen, I really don’t care what the native resolution is at this point. It’s not like 1080p looks awful yet, 4K won’t be standard until what 2020?

I hope more devs go the TR route and really just offer options to the gamer, improve the fps of titles and not worry about hitting higher resolutions if they can’t mange it. Let Sony’s WWS take care of the visual showpieces maybe?
 
JordanN

JordanN

Banned
Pachinko said:
This is also why I feel we won't get a PS5 until Sony can package a 12TF device in a 400 USD box (2019 ? 2020?). Then you'll see a proper generational leap ahead of the PS4.
Click to expand...

I rather they wait for 2021. So they can launch both a PS5 and a 4K PSVR at the same time.
 
Y

Yuuichi

Member
Pachinko said:
This is also why I feel we won't get a PS5 until Sony can package a 12TF device in a 400 USD box (2019 ? 2020?). Then you'll see a proper generational leap ahead of the PS4.
Click to expand...
Given a midrange (1060, $250) card right now is pushing 4TF which is only a 100% increase from two architectures ago (760), I'd say no earlier than 2022 unless 7nm is literally magic (spoiler alert: it probably isn't).
 
K

Kyoufu

Member
Spyder_Monkey said:
Good job advertising your 4k console.
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You're acting like they're trying to deceive people by advertising Pro as a native 4K console, whereas in reality, they were completely upfront and honest about their rendering/upscaling techniques to drive 4K images at the reveal event in September.
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
Kyoufu said:
You're acting like they're trying to deceive people by advertising Pro as a native 4K console, whereas in reality, they were completely upfront and honest about their rendering/upscaling techniques to drive 4K images at the reveal event in September.
Click to expand...
People like deceptive marketing I guess?
 
D

Doctre81

Member
Kyoufu said:
You're acting like they're trying to deceive people by advertising Pro as a native 4K console, whereas in reality, they were completely upfront and honest about their rendering/upscaling techniques to drive 4K images at the reveal event in September.
Click to expand...

They said the pro would be your number one source for 4k content.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Not sure there should be any controversy over this statement, its true.

For guaranteed 4K experiences(both 60fps and 30fps at a great graphical standard) a lot of GPU power is necessary.

6tflops is about enough to hit 4K generally with current gen console settings, 8 would be enough to hit with ultra settings.

So my guess is Sony are going to aim for 10 in the PS5 and then allow devs to use that however they want.
 
E

Elios83

Member
Doctre81 said:
rofl why would he say this with the pro about to come out?
Click to expand...

Quite simple.
They didn't hide in any way the fact that with the Pro in most games you won't get native 4K.
They talked abundantly about their reconstrution/upscaling techniques to make it look as close as native 4K as possible.
So the only new detail that he's adding is that not even Scorpio will be able to render most games in native 4K but we'll need to wait for PS5 to make 4K the standard native resolution for games.
 
O

Omnistalgic

Member
Spyder_Monkey said:
Good job advertising your 4k console.
Click to expand...
But it’s not really a 4K console?

I think 4K is just the easiest thing to market and the most impressive thing about Pro.

"Here’s a $400 PS that will look good on a 4K HDR set, and run games like they are in that crazy resolution."

All the stuff Epic did with Paragon is impressive, but that’s no where as easy to market as 4K resolution.

I don’t think this is a negative at all...Seems to me, Pro is a very well though-out design, a proper midway point for the generation, and a console that isn’t a big enough leap to make current PS4 owners feel like they have to upgrade. I don’t see Cerny stating this as a knock on the console he helped developed. As stated, I’m sure they are proud with how they’re games are looking on Pro.

Also, any Japanese speaking GAF translate the rest yet for any new info? I know the 1% of extra work figure was also mentioned in the article.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Doctre81 said:
rofl why would he say this with the pro about to come out?
Click to expand...

Because the Pro was engineered to use various reconstruction techniques that can provide a noticeable visual benefit on 4k screens, not for delivering native content.

The phrasing has been very carefully chosen. They're saying that it'll have modes that take advantage of the higher pixel counts of 4k screens, not that they'll be native.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I think more than anything, even though i'm not interested in it, i'm appreciative of the fact that Sony are up front with the fact that the Pro is an optional mid gen upgrade, and have made no bones about what they feel the system is capable of. It was built to render to higher resolutions and scale better to higher fidelity televisions. That's pretty simple a concept.


Head.spawn said:
I thought he said PS4 Pro was 8.4 Tflops...
Click to expand...

He said that with FP16 the console was technically simulating an 8.4tflop GPU, but he was speaking only in regards to the new AMD FP utilization, not the actual power of the GPU.

Salty Hippo said:
Between this and the "8.4TF" talk it's looking like Cerny knows well that a lot of people only read headlines.
Click to expand...

He was talking in a technical interview both times, he is not a PR guy generally, and the headlines people make up aren't his business.
 
O

Omnistalgic

Member
Elios83 said:
Quite simple.
They didn't hide in any way the fact that with the Pro in most games you won't get native 4K.
They talked abundantly about their reconstrution/upscaling techniques to make it look as close as native 4K as possible.
So the only new detail that he's adding is that not even Scorpio will be able to render most games in native 4K but we'll need to wait for PS5 to make 4K the standard native resolution for games.
Click to expand...
Yeah, exactly...Sony were basically boasting about checkerboard rendering and “look how close we can get to 4K”

If he’s on the money, and 8TF is the starting point for Native 4K, what does a rig like that even costs? Double the Pro’s $400?

This to me, shows the value of Pro
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
Omnistalgic said:
Yeah, exactly...Sony were basically boasting about checkerboard rendering and “look how close we can get to 4K”

If he’s on the money, and 8TF is the starting point for Native 4K, what does a rig like that even costs? Double the Pro’s $400?

This to me, shows the value of Pro
Click to expand...
Only double? I mean $800 Aint no small amount but maybe I've been saving too much for my gaming pc
 
O

Omnistalgic

Member
S

Spyder_Monkey

Banned
The fact people are debating weather or not the Pro is a "4K Console" should be a sign that Sony could market this thing better.

RichiRamjag said:
They advertise as not true 4K and they've been upfront about this since the first meeting and provided the reasons why. Not sure why some of you still don't get it.
Click to expand...
Why would they do that? That's terrible advertising.
 
F

FinaruDensetsu

Member
For native 4k for pretty much any game big or small without lowering things like textures and other stuff to really low settings he's totally right. I'd even say more like 10TF.
 
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