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Marvel’s Spider-Man Remastered has released on Steam/Steam Deck | Digital Foundry Breakdown Review Released

Very high RT vs PS5





The biggest difference seems to be on rougher materials. On things lien glass and mirrors it seems to just be sharper reflections and slightly higher draw distance. I suspect miles morales will have a bigger difference
 
Highest end PC is always going to outshine, but not too shabby for a $400 console.
I honestly don’t see much difference in the glass and mirror reflections only in the ground (so rough material reflections) it was so funny going on the pc gaming sub and then thinking the rt setting in fidelity mode was lower than low lmao
 

Pedro Motta

Member
Why Sony engineered an entire I/O complex with a powerfull decompressor, two co-processors, a coherency engine and SRAM if the exact same result can be obtained by simply offloading all these processes to the GPU via API without any dedicated hardware?... Don't you think it's too good to be true?
They did that so it could be used for streaming mid game, not just loadings. That's why using the GPU power waas out of the question.
 
There are obviously differences, in certain elements in particular, but it's not THAT huge of a difference overall considering what you need to pay to achieve the maximum results at 60fps compared to what a PS5 costs. And these reflections are mostly there to add more depth to the scene as you're swinging through, you're not gonna be staring closely at the details in the reflections during normal gameplay.

So if you have a PC that can do max settings, great, otherwise you're gonna be just fine with PS5-level settings.
Isnt the ps5 mostly tje highest settings in fidelity mode when it comes to rasterization?
 
When it's done right, IMO it's worth the cost provided you have the optimal hardware. When it's not done correctly then I would agree, better off putting those resources towards improving other things.



Looks to be a huge difference to me, but I guess everyone has different tastes. I mean, if I'm taking a huge hit on RT in the first place, I want it done correctly. I see what you're saying, we just have two different views on what RT reflections are supposed to be, accurate & realistic reflections.
The main difference is the reflections look clearer and have more draw distance but it’s nothing crazy like having more reflections
 
That is literally N64 quality on the left/middle. There is no way anyone can say they didnt see those kinds of textures 25 years ago when N64 and early PC gpus with AA were released.
It was said specifically on rough materials is where the rt pulls ahead on pc but on places like glass and pristine mirrors it’s not a big differences
 

MikeM

Member
They did that so it could be used for streaming mid game, not just loadings. That's why using the GPU power waas out of the question.
I’d argue they did it to save the I/O overhead from the CPU which was supposed to be expensive if handled by it.
 
What an unsurprisingly disingenuous article by Battaglia, his word salad and careful data omission make it sound that you only need a GTX 1060 to match PS5 performance profile, Steve should approve i guess.
I don’t think that card equals the ps5 in any mode especially when vrr is in use
 

Yea latest patch for PS5 have improved performance both in FPS and DRS according to IGN(Michael Thompson), at unlocked fps(vrr) it hovers around 90-100FPS(common 1440p) on performance RT mode, 45-50 on fidelity mode
There was a patch that made the fidelity mode stay above 48 almost all the time recently. Why isn’t anyone benching the unlocked mode vs pc I thought people would be jumping for finally having an unlocked console game
 

yamaci17

Member
Well dlss…
it creates better image quality than native taa at 4K
there's no arguments there you can win, DLSS is also another thing you pay for, and if you paid for it, you may as well use it, especially if it is both beneficial for performance and image quality
it also destroys imsomniac's bespoke temporal injecetion. even I had beliefes that it would rival DLSS, but it has failed colossally, not even close.
even DLSS performance at 4K looks better than IGTI quality at 4K. this speaks volumes on how good DLSS is.
initial arguments console users had against DLSS was that it wasn't going to be widespread. although me and many people like me told that any game that had TAA in place can easily get DLSS, people refused to believe it. now we almost have DLSS in most major AAA games, especially the ones that need it (ray tracing etc)
 
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It's a proper port. Nothing more/less really.
This is what every port should be or more.

I know people are gushing about RT but this is how most people will look a it. While on the side of a building.
And in this setting, it's not so bad on ps5

I said it before but on pristine surfaces like glass and mirrors there isn’t much of a difference it’s only on the rougher materials like the ground or a dirty window where there is a bigger difference (though if you’ve played Spider-Man there aren’t a lot of these and since your swinging your not paying attention to the ground a lo)
 
it creates better image quality than native taa at 4K
there's no arguments there you can win, DLSS is also another thing you pay for, and if you paid for it, you may as well use it, especially if it is both beneficial for performance and image quality
it also destroys imsomniac's bespoke temporal injecetion. even I had beliefes that it would rival DLSS, but it has failed colossally, not even close.
even DLSS performance at 4K looks better than IGTI quality at 4K. this speaks volumes on how good DLSS is.
initial arguments console users had against DLSS was that it wasn't going to be widespread. although me and many people like me told that any game that had TAA in place can easily get DLSS, people refused to believe it. now we almost have DLSS in most major AAA games, especially the ones that need it (ray tracing etc)
I was saying while dlss is awesome it has nothing to do with raw hardware grunt that’s like saying yeah I can get 60fps with checkerboarding
 
Why Sony engineered an entire I/O complex with a powerfull decompressor, two co-processors, a coherency engine and SRAM if the exact same result can be obtained by simply offloading all these processes to the GPU via API without any dedicated hardware?... Don't you think it's too good to be true?

The silicon for the I/O block was designed to decompress 5.5 GB/s worth of data. That amount of bandwidth was designed for instant load times, and to eliminate data streaming bottlenecks in game designs. Will games actually saturate that amount of bandwidth? I don't see that happening but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Mark Cerny even mentioned that developers only asked for a minimum of 1 GB/s of read and write speed from disk. I think that number is what most "next-gen" games including third parties will be designed around and DirectStorage paired with an SSD with at least 1 GB/s will be enough to handle next-gen loading and streaming on PC, although I'm sure many GPU's will comfortably handle much higher speeds if necessary.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
The silicon for the I/O block was designed to decompress 5.5 GB/s worth of data. That amount of bandwidth was designed for instant load times, and to eliminate data streaming bottlenecks in game designs. Will games actually saturate that amount of bandwidth? I don't see that happening but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Mark Cerny even mentioned that developers only asked for a minimum of 1 GB/s of read and write speed from disk. I think that number is what most "next-gen" games including third parties will be designed around and DirectStorage paired with an SSD with at least 1 GB/s will be enough to handle next-gen loading and streaming on PC, although I'm sure many GPU's will comfortably handle much higher speeds if necessary.
Not anytime soon.

R&C was played on an external SSD running at I think 3 gb/s and it ran perfectly fine like nothing happened. When DF did the test (I think it was them), they didn't have a compatible PC SSD that ran slower than that to test, but 3 gb/s was proven a-ok. And R&C is supposed to be the showcase game for insta-loading set pieces.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Isnt the ps5 mostly tje highest settings in fidelity mode when it comes to rasterization?

Seems like it yes, but not the RT, and that's what seems to bring even high-end gaming PCs to their knees if you crack everything up (at least it seems very hard to maintain a flawless 60fps).
 
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RoadHazard

Gold Member
Not anytime soon.

R&C was played on an external SSD running at I think 3 gb/s and it ran perfectly fine like nothing happened. When DF did the test (I think it was them), they didn't have a compatible PC SSD that ran slower than that to test, but 3 gb/s was proven a-ok. And R&C is supposed to be the showcase game for insta-loading set pieces.

You can't play PS5 games from external storage (SSD or not). But maybe you meant expansion SSD (which is internal).
 

rofif

Gold Member
btw I only have few screenshots from release but Ratchet did RT quite detailed (yes, of course I am using energy drinks instead of blots and gears)


 

01011001

Gold Member
btw I only have few screenshots from release but Ratchet did RT quite detailed (yes, of course I am using energy drinks instead of blots and gears)


that looks impressive but it really isn't.

that's the glory of raytracing tho, you can simply apply it and run with it if your hardware can handle it.

all the devs did here is most likely quite literally just clicking on a checkbox in their engine's editor and it works.

almost all games that use RT reflections do that btw. while it's honestly never gonna be seen during gameplay, there's no reason not to just tick that box and turn on rt on surfaces like the eyes of your character.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
I honestly don’t see much difference in the glass and mirror reflections only in the ground (so rough material reflections) it was so funny going on the pc gaming sub and then thinking the rt setting in fidelity mode was lower than low lmao

I'd say there's a huge difference in all the reflections, look at the windows on the left.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
that looks impressive but it really isn't.

that's the glory of raytracing tho, you can simply apply it and run with it if your hardware can handle it.

all the devs did here is most likely quite literally just clicking on a checkbox in their engine's editor and it works.

almost all games that use RT reflections do that btw. while it's honestly never gonna be seen during gameplay, there's no reason not to just tick that box and turn on rt on surfaces like the eyes of your character.

That's definitely not true, it's not just a thing you switch on. They did a lot of optimization to make it look that good while also running at 60fps on PS5. The "simple" solution would be to just raytrace into an exact copy of the real scene, but that's not what you do because it would be expensive as hell. Even the max RT setting in the PC version of SM doesn't do that.

tho in their defence, they think only 3k usd PC can achieve that difference
i'm sure i will be able to replicate it on my 3070 at 1440p/dlss quality and get away with 60+ fps tho

I doubt you will get 60+ with the highest RT setting (might depend on your CPU though), but let us know how it goes.
 

yamaci17

Member
That's definitely not true, it's not just a thing you switch on. They did a lot of optimization to make it look that good while also running at 60fps on PS5. The "simple" solution would be to just raytrace into an exact copy of the real scene, but that's not what you do because it would be expensive as hell. Even the max RT setting in the PC version of SM doesn't do that.



I doubt you will get 60+ with the highest RT setting (might depend on your CPU though), but let us know how it goes.
we will see, it is possible to find some middleground by keeping rt geometry very high but resolution a bit lower
 
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01011001

Gold Member
That's definitely not true, it's not just a thing you switch on. They did a lot of optimization to make it look that good while also running at 60fps on PS5. The "simple" solution would be to just raytrace into an exact copy of the real scene, but that's not what you do because it would be expensive as hell. Even the max RT setting in the PC version of SM doesn't do that.

that's not what I was referring to, I was referring to the fact that the eyes have RT reflections applied, which is most definitely simply a switch they can turn on and off and is in itself not impressive
 
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Stuart360

Member
imagine if a game exhibited this kind of difference between ps5 and series x
probably chaos would ensue between them :D
It would be a 100 page thread, literally. Honestly the difference between PS5 and PC in those RT shots is vast.

Anyway this game is super optimized, i'm getting 60fps at native 4k max settings (minus RT of course) on my 1080ti. Sure i have a massive overclock on it but from playing other modern games, this game is very well optimized.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
that's not what I was referring to, I was referring to the fact that the eyes have RT reflections applied, which is most definitely simply a switch they can turn on and off and is in itself not impressive

Sure, once they had reflections on curved geometry in place (which is something they have talked about as being rather tricky to achieve, and far from all games that have RT reflections have that) it was probably not that big of a deal to add it there.
 

01011001

Gold Member
It would be a 100 page thread, literally. Honestly the difference between PS5 and PC in those RT shots is vast.

Anyway this game is super optimized, i'm getting 60fps at native 4k max settings (minus RT of course) on my 1080ti. Sure i have a massive overclock on it but from playing other modern games, this game is very well optimized.
does it support RT on GTX10 cards?
 

01011001

Gold Member
Sure, once they had reflections on curved geometry in place (which is something they have talked about as being rather tricky to achieve, and far from all games that have RT reflections have that) it was probably not that big of a deal to add it there.

I legit can't name you a game that has RT reflections that don't work on curved geometry, especially since strictly speaking there's no such thing as curved geometry in polygon based games as even a car wheel is made up of lots and lots of flat surfaces
 
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RoadHazard

Gold Member
I legit can't name you a game that has RT reflections that don't work on curved geometry, especially since strictly speaking there's no such thing as curved geometry in polygon based games as even a car wheel is made up of lots and lots of flat surfaces

Which is why you need to do some trickery to get good looking reflections that LOOK as though the geometry is actually curved. A bunch of "flat" reflections next to each other probably wouldn't look right, you would easily see the sharp edges between polygons with different normals, and there would be parts of the reflected environment missing because there isn't a continuous smooth curve (in the case of convex surfaces). So it's probably some trickery with the normals used for the rays.

I don't know if that was the thing they were talking about though, don't remember exactly, but I do know they brought this up as requiring some extra thought (might have been in a DF video or something, where they had talked to them).

Or maybe I'm misremembering and it was about reflections on translucent surfaces (which also happens in the game), but I don't think so.
 
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01011001

Gold Member
Which is why you need to do some trickery to get good looking reflections that LOOK as though the geometry is actually curved. A bunch of "flat" reflections next to each other probably wouldn't look right, you would easily see the sharp edges between polygons with different normals, and there would be parts of the reflected environment missing because there isn't a continuous smooth curve (in the case of convex surfaces). So it's probably some trickery with the normals used for the rays.

I don't know if that was the thing they were talking about though, don't remember exactly, but I do know they brought this up as requiring some extra thought (might have been in a DF video or something, where they had talked to them).

Or maybe I'm misremembering and it was about reflections on translucent surfaces (which also happens in the game), but I don't think so.

I mean yeah you have to make it all look coherent, but with the polygon density we have these days that's almost solving itself.
and most of that work should already be done due to the prevalence of Screen Space Reflections, which need to do the same thing, they also need to look convincingly curved, so not sure how RT reflections differ in the way they need to be treated to look good on a cylinder or something.

but yeah, as I said, I can't name a single game that doesn't have RT reflections on "curved" objects/surfaces
 

Stuart360

Member
Slightly off topic but er....how do you enter your appartment lol?. Its on the map but its just a rooftop, i thought you would be able to go in, change suits, etc.
 

01011001

Gold Member
Slightly off topic but er....how do you enter your appartment lol?. Its on the map but its just a rooftop, i thought you would be able to go in, change suits, etc.
nope, suits are just on a menu screen where you can see how to unlock them, or unlock them with xp points
 

Pedro Motta

Member
that looks impressive but it really isn't.

that's the glory of raytracing tho, you can simply apply it and run with it if your hardware can handle it.

all the devs did here is most likely quite literally just clicking on a checkbox in their engine's editor and it works.

almost all games that use RT reflections do that btw. while it's honestly never gonna be seen during gameplay, there's no reason not to just tick that box and turn on rt on surfaces like the eyes of your character.
Please, stop honoring us with all your technical expertise.
 
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