ThatCrazyGuy
Member
It still boggles my mind that that Capcom doesn't release build/patch notes like a normal company.
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Marvel vs Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds |OT2| Sold exclusively at Dollar Tree
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Karsticles
Member
More likely, they're just too cheap to dedicated the resources needed to make good netcode. That was basically what Seth Killian said, but in a much more Capcom-friendly way.
Honestly, with all of these "but netcode with 3D games is hard" excuses Capcom throws out, I don't understand why they didn't just make the damn game 2D.
I'm telling you, all signs point to incompetence in the corporate structure when it comes to Capcom. The left hand never knows what the right hand is doing, and the eyes aren't watching either of them, while the mouth talks about something completely unrelated to all of their activities.
It's really quite simple why there isn't any changelog.
It's because there are things in the game that are broken/messed up that Capcom knows but the community doesn't and Capcom is stealth fixing those too. The last patch had some extra fixes which the community didn't pick up on like "changes to block damage values" or something like that.
If they released a changelog it would bring to attention some glitches/bugs that people weren't aware of and that's headache that Capcom doesn't want to deal with. They would much rather play the "BUT IT'S FUN TO FIND OUT STUFF BY YOURSELF!" card.
It's because there are things in the game that are broken/messed up that Capcom knows but the community doesn't and Capcom is stealth fixing those too. The last patch had some extra fixes which the community didn't pick up on like "changes to block damage values" or something like that.
If they released a changelog it would bring to attention some glitches/bugs that people weren't aware of and that's headache that Capcom doesn't want to deal with. They would much rather play the "BUT IT'S FUN TO FIND OUT STUFF BY YOURSELF!" card.
Oh man I laughed out loud at this one... because it's so fucking true regarding Capcom.
"God's Beard!"
Member
To be fair, corporations are inherently schizophrenic and Capcom just went through a bit of a shuffle in the power structure through the past few years. Inafune getting promoted then resigning, Jun Takeuchi taking over, the revival of fighting games, all of Capcom-Unity and their new fan-feedback and world development philosophies.
Despite that, they've pumped out a ton of games this generation. I really think this whole gen has been Capcom experimenting with everything, so it's all over the place.
Despite that, they've pumped out a ton of games this generation. I really think this whole gen has been Capcom experimenting with everything, so it's all over the place.
Prototype-03
Member
Karsticles said:
LOL, I wonder when the patch was released, half of the marvel team went "???"
God's Beard said:
That's fine and all but it doesn't make sense that they couldn't have just one guy type up what changed. Hell, I could've typed it up if they told me what changed.
Karsticles
Member
I assume they have the same problem Blizzard did (or does still?). When I played WoW, we actually got patch notes, but there would always be 4-5 stealth changes per patch. Some of these were bug fixes, and some were nerfs or buffs to certain classes. Stealth nerfs always received the most rage.
One day, a Blizzard employees was kind enough to explain why the patch notes sometimes miss those things: they lose track of what they're actually implementing. At any given time, there are tons of different versions of WoW that they are messing with, and sometimes they either add in a quick fix or pull one at the last second. The corporate structure apparently makes this hard to keep track of, leading to errors in patch notes.
I imagine Capcom is in even worse shape; rather than try and fail, they just use, as Dahbomb said, the "we like you to figure it out for yourself" card. Seth Killian at least proves part of this to be correct, since when he did character demos he sometimes would say "Oh, did we change the input for that? Or maybe I'm remembering the old input, or maybe it's the input we're working on adding into the next version..." (something like that).
DryEyeRelief
Member
I have the best timing. I was going to try out Captain America today.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Dahbomb said:
Exactly. They don't really consider fighting games as a continually competitive thing. They're too stuck in arcade culture and like pretending to be mysterious.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Something I feel people need to understand is that MvC3 is Not Finished. Game was shoved out the door months before it should have been due to Capcom's financial issues.
I honestly feel what we are seeing currently is the QA testing that would have happened naturally over the course of another 2 months or so of development time. As a result, the game is unstable; it's going to take a while yet before it reaches what should have been its retail release.
On the other hand, I would argue that many are approaching issues like patching infinites and such with backwards logic. Saying that characters that turn out to be weak need glitches or infinites is old world reasoning - from the days when arcade machines were set in stone and never changed (even though that's not REALLY true - Capcom arcade games before MvC2 did have frequent rom revisions - people bitching about their games being modified need to check their history.) When you were stuck with a poorly balanced character in the old days, you were screwed. A glitch that let that character compete was a godsend. That doesn't mean it was the proper way for the game to be balanced or the best way for it to be played.
Ironically, instead of griping about patches "ruining the game before we know how it plays" they COULD be asking for Cap for example to be buffed... perhaps they can't, because that would make them hypocrites for otherwise claiming you shouldn't patch the game? Yet even though the game is so young, they already are certain Cap is useless without a glitch? If everyone is so certain, why not just ask for a buff!
Which way is it? Can't eat your cake and have it too!
I honestly feel what we are seeing currently is the QA testing that would have happened naturally over the course of another 2 months or so of development time. As a result, the game is unstable; it's going to take a while yet before it reaches what should have been its retail release.
On the other hand, I would argue that many are approaching issues like patching infinites and such with backwards logic. Saying that characters that turn out to be weak need glitches or infinites is old world reasoning - from the days when arcade machines were set in stone and never changed (even though that's not REALLY true - Capcom arcade games before MvC2 did have frequent rom revisions - people bitching about their games being modified need to check their history.) When you were stuck with a poorly balanced character in the old days, you were screwed. A glitch that let that character compete was a godsend. That doesn't mean it was the proper way for the game to be balanced or the best way for it to be played.
Ironically, instead of griping about patches "ruining the game before we know how it plays" they COULD be asking for Cap for example to be buffed... perhaps they can't, because that would make them hypocrites for otherwise claiming you shouldn't patch the game? Yet even though the game is so young, they already are certain Cap is useless without a glitch? If everyone is so certain, why not just ask for a buff!
Which way is it? Can't eat your cake and have it too!
BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!
Member
They released a changelog once for a LP2 update on capcom-unity, but that's all I remember
Prototype-03
Member
DryEyeRelief said:
He didn't really need the infinite anyway. You're fine.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Prototype-03
Member
Kaijima said:
I actually like some of the glitches. Like the DHC glitch is pretty cool because it makes some people will set up teams to use it. Others, will use something else. Infinites, Zero glitch, Haggar/Spencer glitch needed to be gone.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Dahbomb said:
I almost look forward to it, if Capcom behaves responsibly and talks about it openly, and provides a changelog.
See, fighting games are about to fully enter the new world - or rather, catch up to where competitive PC games were years ago. MK9 is going to pretty much ring in the world of RTS-style balance tweaking, from all appearances.
If companies like Capcom can get their act together and handle this professionally, I'd like to see how many people perform global ragequits from playing modern games all together because they can't evolve.
Yes we know about this, doesn't mean we can't give Capcom shit about it.Kaijima said:
I think aside from the Sentinel nerf (which most likely Capcom wanted in but couldn't do it in time for the launch) the changes have been satisfactory because they are all bug/glitch related. There hasn't been any balance change as of yet and it's good that they have assumed a "wait and see" approach with this game.
Again, this is all assuming that the Sent nerf wasn't a knee jerk reaction.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Dahbomb said:
Not as much as the week before EVO patch.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
In regards to changelists.
The dev team is supposed to tell the internal producers/qa team what is changing being added/fixed, so they can all be checked to be working as intended.
Unless the programmers are putting stuff in and not telling anybody (or they are making mistakes/bugs when changing things). The production team hates that.
What they give to to Sony/MS when they submit it, who knows.
Somebody at Capcom has to have a list of what was changed. It pure BS if they say they don't, or they are so hugely unorganized, its disgusting.
Like Valve gives good notes with TF2 patches.
Maybe WOW is different, because it so huge, but idk.
Capcom with all the secret/secret stuff is dumb. It ain't the 90's. Just tell me what's different.
The dev team is supposed to tell the internal producers/qa team what is changing being added/fixed, so they can all be checked to be working as intended.
Unless the programmers are putting stuff in and not telling anybody (or they are making mistakes/bugs when changing things). The production team hates that.
What they give to to Sony/MS when they submit it, who knows.
Somebody at Capcom has to have a list of what was changed. It pure BS if they say they don't, or they are so hugely unorganized, its disgusting.
Like Valve gives good notes with TF2 patches.
Maybe WOW is different, because it so huge, but idk.
Capcom with all the secret/secret stuff is dumb. It ain't the 90's. Just tell me what's different.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Prototype-03 said:
In point of fact, I should qualify that the DHC thing is an interesting point. Folks need to remember that Capcom has, in fact, officially stated they recognize some unforseen glitches add character to the game - they do understand this. This very well could be why the DHC tactic has not be patched out and may not ever be patched out unless someone finds a specifically broken tactic using it.
But then, the DHC glitch is more of an exploit of mechanics, than a true glitch. or even an infinite loop which by most design conventions, is an error in design. DHC reset basically takes advantage of existing game logic that by itself, isn't glitched or broken, and it does induce some pointed creativity in how teams or built. You don't have to use the DHC glitch; it's a genuine option. It means that there are two kinds of team building strategies - those hung around DHC, and those around other strategies.
So yes, the DHC reset - can't even really call it a glitch! - is another thing. And funny enough, everything that's been patched in the game so far falls under the aegis of legitimate bugs, glitches, and ways to break hitstun decay safety measures. Plus the Sentinel adjustment, for which a very strong argument can be made and has been made.
People keep playing it up that Capcom is ridiculous and doesn't have any idea what they're doing. The facts (so far) don't suggest that.
... aside from their clear need for better public relations. Fixing games = good. No changelog and notification = bad. Pretty simple.
Karsticles
Member
Indeed.
I don't like Capcom's claim that they make alterations based on feedback from competitive players - where? When? What went down, what was said? It reminds me of how Blizzard would open discussions about class balance on a forum, thank everyone for their feedback about the class, and then proceed to change absolutely nothing that was wanted because "Blizzard knows better". After years of bitching, Blizzard would finally make the change that was asked for, because it was the right change to be made.
I have the feeling X-Factor will have a similar history.
Eh, this could backfire though. The MK team has no real experience in making a competitive fighting game. Even the big companies seem to consistently fumble what should be changed...
If we really want to pick on Capcom, I'd like to know why there isn't an option to turn on hitboxes and hurtboxes in training mode. Just let me see how effective the attack really is!
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Dahbomb said:
I'm speaking more generally here, and not GAF-specific.On the other hand, why give them shit if they're doing their job? Bitch about bad PR and no change list, certainly.
It's a glitch though.
Like it's a "reset" but it isn't a true reset, it's actually a full combo. The combo meter still keeps rolling but a reset went active and that's why the hit stun and damage was reset. But since the player's state wasn't reset, it isn't a true reset because he is still in a captured/spinning state.
Imagine if there was a way to do a Magneto ROM, only half way through you could trick the system into thinking the combo dropped but the player was still in a comboable state so you could keep comboing him with the damage and hit stun reset. It would be a reset without ever giving the other player a chance to respond to it.
Thing about DHC glitch is that it isn't as broken as it actually is because only certain combinations of it are actually fruitful because at the bare minimum you are still spending 2 meters to pull it off and normally 2 meters will kill off a character anyway. Plus you need to put your team in a certain order and if your character dies or gets snapped back that ordering gets fucked.
It's only annoying right now because the majority of the characters who can use it efficiently are supposed top tiers. So now those characters have an extra tool to one touch death you. I have seen a lot of teams recently which are basically "pick 2 top tiers who can DHC glitch off of each other and then 1 top tier assist who can also anchor in X factor". It's why Magneto/Dante/Sentinel teams are getting extremely popular.
It's not inducing creativity but in fact stunting it.
Like it's a "reset" but it isn't a true reset, it's actually a full combo. The combo meter still keeps rolling but a reset went active and that's why the hit stun and damage was reset. But since the player's state wasn't reset, it isn't a true reset because he is still in a captured/spinning state.
Imagine if there was a way to do a Magneto ROM, only half way through you could trick the system into thinking the combo dropped but the player was still in a comboable state so you could keep comboing him with the damage and hit stun reset. It would be a reset without ever giving the other player a chance to respond to it.
Thing about DHC glitch is that it isn't as broken as it actually is because only certain combinations of it are actually fruitful because at the bare minimum you are still spending 2 meters to pull it off and normally 2 meters will kill off a character anyway. Plus you need to put your team in a certain order and if your character dies or gets snapped back that ordering gets fucked.
It's only annoying right now because the majority of the characters who can use it efficiently are supposed top tiers. So now those characters have an extra tool to one touch death you. I have seen a lot of teams recently which are basically "pick 2 top tiers who can DHC glitch off of each other and then 1 top tier assist who can also anchor in X factor". It's why Magneto/Dante/Sentinel teams are getting extremely popular.
It's not inducing creativity but in fact stunting it.
Yeah we are doing exactly that. Especially the part about the bad PR. The only thing I have learned about MVC3 post-release was from a random Tweet and Lupinko. Seriously, that's how BAD Capcom's PR has been.Kaijima said:
On the other hand, why give them shit if they're doing their job? Bitch about bad PR and no change list, certainly.
hitsugi
Member
lmao. are you trolling? why not quote my entire post since you're basically replying to it? guess what? 3s had a revised version in arcades and no one gave a shit about it. The versions of cvs2 without roll cancel are largely considered a joke and the console 3s versions without uriens unblockables or other "glitches" were also tossed aside. Let's not even get started with the ST mess.Kaijima said:
If you want to go ahead and reference handcuff glitches from SF2 20 years ago or MK2 (both of which had numerous different versions in arcade) be my guest, but please try to be a little more current.
No one said that the only way to balance a character or make them competitive is through a glitch, nor an infinite. However, you completely ignored the natural evolution of a fighting game. Entirely. At least least let the game breath a bit and allow the players to explore their options before deeming something too good / "broken", etc.
I'm all in favor of adjusting the supposed "weaker" areas of the cast to bring them up to speed, but any buff without a lot of testing could easily create the next broken thing for people to cry about. Blizzard knows the pain of this all too well. This is why we're largely seeing nerfs, not positive adjustments for weaker characters.
Do you really think capcoms "QA testing" would have discovered half of the shit we're seeing today in the game? And to say within 2 more months of time? Surely, you're joking.
What we see here is a different evolution of fighting games, but to claim that players are getting so upset that they'll "ragequit" from balance patches is laughable at best.
Prototype-03
Member
n3ss said:
Of course they're not going to say it but their menu is horrible/laggy, their netcode sucks, and they're doing some balances that shouldn't be made yet. Everything points to that this game was incomplete and they were just going to patch the game out.
edit: also what Dahbomb said
You really think Capcom is going to admit they released a game ahead of it's actual planned time?n3ss said:
When was the last time you heard that game was releasing 2 months earlier than it's original date? Yeah... you don't hear it often but guess what, it actually did happen with MVC3. It was supposed to release near the end of March when it was first announced but it was pushed up which coincidentally met the mark for Capcom's Q1 earning report.
Gotta look good for them stock exchange guys.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
If I recall correctly, Nitsuma said this game had "perfect balance" before release.n3ss said:
Putting words in other people's mouths and lecturing competitive players about what's good for them when he doesn't seem to indicate that he ever plays competitively himself is sort of Kajima's shtick.hitsugi said:
DryEyeRelief
Member
Prototype-03 said:
I'm sure. But I wanted to practice the infinite just to see if I could do it consistently.
I had the same interest in Fuerte in SF4.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Sixfortyfive said:
Speed of light netcode too if I recall, haha.
sixteen-bit
Member
that was greatThatCrazyGuy said:
so basically "get fiber"
SolarPowered
Member
You guys are really going at it, eh?
The game was pitting people with 400+ wins against people who had not even lost 20, winning or losing a match in ranked knocks you back to the main menu, the netcode is terrible compared to games that released nearly half a decade ago, and numerous glitches have been found and exploited before the game even hit the two month mark.
Seriously a rush job. A much better one than most of the ones we've had lately, but a rush job nonetheless.
I agree completely with you.There is no doubt in my mind at this point that the game was prematurely released. It's not like we got a mess of a game like New Vegas or that Oddworld shit on Steam a few months back, but the game was definitely rushed out the door to make someone's graph/pie chart look better.Dahbomb said:
The game was pitting people with 400+ wins against people who had not even lost 20, winning or losing a match in ranked knocks you back to the main menu, the netcode is terrible compared to games that released nearly half a decade ago, and numerous glitches have been found and exploited before the game even hit the two month mark.
Seriously a rush job. A much better one than most of the ones we've had lately, but a rush job nonetheless.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I'm not looking forwards to any DHC glitch, without an unblockable touch of death combo my Spencer with Wesker assist will be rendered merely Godlike
SolarPowered said:
I did some research (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) but has Ryota Niitsuma worked on any ps3 or 360 titles before MvC3? I see him credited in SFIV, but other than that nothing. I also checked out Eighting, and also see that MvC3 was their first ps3/360 title. Maybe this would explain a lot?
Being on 360/PS3 had nothing to do with the game lacking feature set or having a poor netcode.
In fact, I would say that the team did a great job with the fighting engine as well as making a game that looks identical on both platforms. Nitsuma made the transition from TVC to MVC very well.
Problems with MVC3 are unrelated to it being on PS3/360. You think the menus had poor design because it was his first time working with PS3/360 hardware? Their priorities were on the fighting engine, the characters, mechanics and the general look/feel of the game... all of which they nailed. They were lazy with the extra features and UI plus online stuff and it shows.
In fact, I would say that the team did a great job with the fighting engine as well as making a game that looks identical on both platforms. Nitsuma made the transition from TVC to MVC very well.
Problems with MVC3 are unrelated to it being on PS3/360. You think the menus had poor design because it was his first time working with PS3/360 hardware? Their priorities were on the fighting engine, the characters, mechanics and the general look/feel of the game... all of which they nailed. They were lazy with the extra features and UI plus online stuff and it shows.
Dahbomb said:
I'm not directly responding to the menu design comment. I'm arguing that it's possible that the poor netcode is not due to laziness, but possibly lack of experience developing on ps3/360 platform. I never played TvC online, but how well did they handle the netcode on Wii?
The shitty UI I can deal with, shitty netcode I cannot, especially in this day in age.
sixteen-bit
Member
the netcode on TvC was pretty bad
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I actually laughed out loud at this post.n3ss said:
That should give you an idea.
sixteen-bit
Member
...and the data in the guide is outdated due to recent patches. :/SmithnCo said:
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
So much ass kissing of capcom, they fucked up the netcode and menus there is no arguing about it. As I said before there is no they tried their hardest D: It either works or it doesn't and honestly it doesn't really work. Then you got arc sys who has he best netcode around in ONE TRY turn around and UPDATE IT to make it better? Yeah that's called they know what's important
The DHC glitch is not "creative use of mechanics". Resetting damage scaling without actually resetting your opponent was not intended. It allows characters to kill off of throws who otherwise could not due to the more severe damage degradation that's put into place when comboing off of a grab or throw.Kaijima said:
It's a glitch, it'll be patched out, and if you think that's a bad thing, you need to stop living in the '90s.
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