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[KonradLaw]

Nah when she actually got to become Black Canary she became a great character. They killed the wrong blonde.

Except that she forever remained a utterly terrible Black Canary. They screwed themselves up from the start. THere was zero chemistry with her and main lead, to the point where he had more sexual tension with his sister than with the supposedly his destined love. And then they've introduced the vastly superior Canary, to whom Laurel could never ever measure up. They should have dropped the idea of turning Laurel into BA then and just give Sara a voice device.

 

[Father_Brain]

Exactly.

If anything, by making Watchmen canon they themselves have misunderstood a huge part of what made it work in the first place: it's self-contained nature. Everything you need to understand the story and subtext is within the book. By making it part of established DC canon, they're kind of undermining both its fundamental critique of the genre and it's basic premise: the world it created is meant to be our own (in the 80s) had superheroes existed.

They could've made their grand meta-critique of its impact without making it canon. In fact, it's a little late to be making such a grand statement anyway as there are already plenty that do just that, not least of all last year's (?) phenomenal Pax Americana (which provided them with a perfect substitute character).

But yeah, gotta get those headlines. This isn't the first time Johns has riffed off of Moore's scraps either, is it?

And the thing is: Most of what's in the preview pages is actually quite good! I'm sure many of the Rebirth books will be quite good! Which makes this pathetic, deeply cynical Watchmen twist just stand out all the more.

 

[BBQMan]

Except that she forever remained a utterly terrible Black Canary. They screwed themselves up from the start. THere was zero chemistry with her and main lead, to the point where he had more sexual tension with his sister than with the supposedly his destined love. And then they've introduced the vastly superior Canary, to whom Laurel could never ever measure up. They should have dropped the idea of turning Laurel into BA then and just give Sara a voice device.

Thats not her fault Oliver is the same with every character.

 

[8bit]

But yeah, gotta get those headlines. This isn't the first time Johns has riffed off of Moore's scraps either, is it?

IIRC he borrowed big from Green Lantern - Tygers (where Abin Sur decides to travel by spaceship in future). There were a bunch of throwaway lines that formed a later Johns plot. I might be mixing this up with Mogo Don't Socialise though.

edit!

Ranx the sentient city, Sodam Yat, Weaponers of Qward, Blink Bombs in Mogo's core. All in a throwaway anthology story.

 

[Screaming Meat]

IIRC he borrowed big from Green Lantern - Tygers (where Abin Sur decides to travel by spaceship in future). There were a bunch of throwaway lines that formed a later Johns plot. I might be mixing this up with Mogo Don't Socialise though.

That's the one I'm thinking of, though I didn't read Johns' story.

Ranx the sentient city, Weaponers of Qward, Blink Bombs in Mogo's core. All in a throwaway anthology story.

That's it! I think Moore complained DC were 'going through his trash' at the time.

Never been a Lantern fan but Tygers was so good. I loved Qull of the Five Inversions.

 

[Father_Brain]

IIRC he borrowed big from Green Lantern - Tygers (where Abin Sur decides to travel by spaceship in future). There were a bunch of throwaway lines that formed a later Johns plot. I might be mixing this up with Mogo Don't Socialise though.

Tygers is the one that was the biggest influence on Johns' run, definitely. Ysmault, the Empire of Tears, Sodam Yat, Ranx the Sentient City, etc. Ironically, most of those elements actually played a bigger role in Sinestro Corps War than Blackest Night, IIRC, despite being introduced as part of the "prophecy of the Blackest Night."

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Is the story where Hal went insane and killed everyone in a Trade avaiable?

 

[LordRaptor]

Is the story where Hal went insane and killed everyone in a Trade avaiable?

I don't think its been reprinted in trade but singles are pretty cheap..

Yes, it literally went down over 3 issues. Its understandable folks were pissed

 

[KonradLaw]

Thats not her fault Oliver is the same with every character.

It likely her fault she's like that with everyone but her though.

Killing Laurel was a good idea. She never worked as Black Canary. She could have worked as civilian, but the show never could do court scenes properly.

 

[Furyous]

I need to RAGE because GOTDAMMIT DC:

REBIRTH SPOILER BELOW DON'T CLICK

Spoiler

The Watchmen are now canon according to the leak.

Why did they screw up all the Wildstorm characters? The Authority wipes the floor with the vast majority of the Justice League if they fight honestly. DC is holding back the Wildstorm characters from greatness with their conservative take on powerhouse characters. Look at what they did to Midnighter with him jobbing to Grayson and now this Rebirth schauenfraude. Yes, I'm mad as shit. Sell these characters to someone else like Top Cow who will let them be great.

I'm really really sad at the Rebirth leaks right now and the direction DC is heading.

 

[Spaghetti]

Doc Manhattan being the DCU's 'God' is a cool idea that makes a lot of sense, if just a cool little thing, but as a big plot-point? I dunno...

Seems like a giant "fuck you" to Alan Moore, but I guess that bridge was burnt all the way down decades ago.

 

[Einchy]

Guys, don't tell anyone but I'm kind of excited for a possible ongoing Rorschach solo.

 

[Piku_Ringo]

And yet we get a fairly well known character puking acid blood on her dead baby saying "I never wanted children" in a mainstream comic book ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

What? Where?

 

[Spaghetti]

Guys, don't tell anyone but I'm kind of excited for a possible ongoing Rorschach solo.

It'd be interesting if the Watchmen elements were in-continuity with the end of the book

Spoiler

i.e Rorschach being dead

.

 

[8bit]

It'd be interesting if the Watchmen elements were in-continuity with the end of the book

Spoiler

i.e Rorschach being dead

.

Rorschach gave the Comedian's badge to Night Owl who later threw the clean version of it into the Comedian's grave, yet Batman is pictured with a bloodied version of it. So no idea if continuity is anywhere to be seen here.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Rorschach gave the Comedian's badge to Night Owl who later threw the clean version of it into the Comedian's grave, yet Batman is pictured with a bloodied version of it. So no idea if continuity is anywhere to be seen here.

The blood is the only way to know it is the Comedian's in a picture. Otherwise we would just ask why there was a smiley face button that Batman found.

Now, if he found a three eyed smiley face button, and we got Spider Jerusalem in present day continuity, that would be hilarious. We could get a string of issues of him reporting on the fuckery going on and losing his mind.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Rorschach gave the Comedian's badge to Night Owl who later threw the clean version of it into the Comedian's grave, yet Batman is pictured with a bloodied version of it. So no idea if continuity is anywhere to be seen here.

Its bloody because its iconic.
No other reason there I guess.

 

[Father_Brain]

Rorschach gave the Comedian's badge to Night Owl who later threw the clean version of it into the Comedian's grave, yet Batman is pictured with a bloodied version of it. So no idea if continuity is anywhere to be seen here.

Gee golly gosh, it's almost as though they're cynically exploiting Watchmen to drive short-term sales through shock value.

Nah, I'm sure this all comes from a place of deep, profound respect for the source material. Totally.

 

[Spaghetti]

Rorschach gave the Comedian's badge to Night Owl who later threw the clean version of it into the Comedian's grave, yet Batman is pictured with a bloodied version of it. So no idea if continuity is anywhere to be seen here.

Its bloody because its iconic.
No other reason there I guess.

I'd like to believe they'd move forwards instead of backwards, but certain characters are too popular to leave alone.

 

[Einchy]

I'd like to believe they'd move forwards instead of backwards, but certain characters are too popular to leave alone.

Yeah, they'd be nuts to not bring back The Comedian and Rorschach.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Yeah, they'd be nuts to not bring back The Comedian and Rorschach.

Rorschach would be perfect for Gotham.

My problem is that some character are just unnecessary in the real DCU, Nightowl for example.

 

[Sou Da]

Yeah, they'd be nuts to not bring back The Comedian and Rorschach.

"It's time to shit" and "Bitch to be you right now "all in one comic, cool.

 

[Screaming Meat]

The blood is the only way to know it is the Comedian's in a picture. Otherwise we would just ask why there was a smiley face button that Batman found.

Now, if he found a three eyed smiley face button, and we got Spider Jerusalem in present day continuity, that would be hilarious. We could get a string of issues of him reporting on the fuckery going on and losing his mind.

Gadzooks, man! Don't even joke about it!

Yeah, they'd be nuts to not bring back The Comedian and Rorschach.

If they bring Rorschach back, it'll be some manifest guilt in Manhattan's subconscious that made him rebuild him or some shit.

This shit is so depressing.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Yeah, they'd be nuts to not bring back The Comedian and Rorschach.

The Comedian could be one of The Jokers! One of the incarnations that doesn't shave their mustache under the make-up.

 

[Spaghetti]

Rorschach would be perfect for Gotham.

My problem is that some character are just unnecessary in the real DCU, Nightowl for example.

My worry is they'll dilute his character. He was basically a fascist in Watchmen (although worryingly his popularity is due to people agreeing with his sense of justice), but how could they continually carry that on in a new book and still have him as a 'hero'? He could be loosely given the label in Watchmen because of how clearly imperfect and flawed the heroes were meant to be in the book, but in the DC Universe? I dunno.

Where would Rorschach be in a post-Watchmen world where

Spoiler

he was brought back to life

? Does he just forget what happened in the book? What about the pursuit of truth that

Spoiler

got him killed

? I'm sure it'll all be addressed but... I dunno. I think it would be easier to limit the Watchmen cast to

Spoiler

whoever was still alive at the end of the book

.

 

[LordRaptor]

What? Where?

From Gath Ennis' Crossed Geoff Johns Grim-darkest Blackest Night

He was basically a fascist in Watchmen (although worryingly his popularity is due to people agreeing with his sense of justice), but how could they continually carry that on in a new book and still have him as a 'hero'?

Ask a Punisher fan, I guess

 

[anaron]

The problem with that is having Black Canary as regular on GA comics is terrible and kills the Green Arrow as character. At most she should just drop in from time to time, but her being permanent part of GA comics is utterly terrible idea.

lol

Sure thing.

 

[Father_Brain]

Just cancelled my preorder for the one-shot; I'm not gonna call for a boycott, but I might as well put my money where my mouth is. Not buying any Rebirth book that features Watchmen characters, either.

 

[8bit]

The Comedian could be one of The Jokers! One of the incarnations that doesn't shave their mustache under the make-up.

That's far too awesome an explanation for DC.


--

Maybe the newly resurrected Rorschach accidentally spills juice from a can of beans onto the badge after digging it back out of Comedian's grave then drops it off at the Batcave.

I am morbidly interested in how this plays out, it's a checklist of wanted items.

"Geoff, give me some ideas! We're losing sales!"

"OK, bring Wally back."

"Bring the Legion back."

"OK, cool, what else?"

"Give Wonder Woman a twin."

"Geoff."

"You know how Marvel has the Watcher? How about we make the Watchmen canon?"

"GEOFF."

"Three Jokers."

"..."

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

The blood is the only way to know it is the Comedian's in a picture. Otherwise we would just ask why there was a smiley face button that Batman found.

Now, if he found a three eyed smiley face button, and we got Spider Jerusalem in present day continuity, that would be hilarious. We could get a string of issues of him reporting on the fuckery going on and losing his mind.

Are you a ghost writer for DC? Is this the winter super event? I will buy your trades if this is in the works

I don't even follow DC these days and this seems... i dunno. Like out of touch with Watchmen? Like they read cliff notes of it and decided to write a "what if..." story but forgot to call it such and BAM continuity.

Would anyone be able to PM or write a quick super spoilerific rundown of the bizness running up to this and the good Doctors actual role that we know of? Is the idea that at the end of Watchmen the "I might go create some life now..." line actually the origin of the entirety of superheroDCU? Like he flew off to Manhattan knows where and then pooped DC comics universe into existence?

Is that really how they're gonna play this?

Such interesting fuckery...

 

[Father_Brain]

That's far too awesome an explanation for DC.


--

Maybe the newly resurrected Rorschach accidentally spills juice from a can of beans onto the badge after digging it back out of Comedian's grave then drops it off at the Batcave.

I am morbidly interested in how this plays out, it's a checklist of wanted items.

"Geoff, give me some ideas! We're losing sales!"

"OK, bring Wally back."

"Bring the Legion back."

"OK, cool, what else?"

"Give Wonder Woman a twin."

"Geoff."

"You know how Marvel has the Watcher? How about we make the Watchmen canon?"

"GEOFF."

"Three Jokers."

"..."

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with DC that they feel the need to resort to this sort of craven stunt? Is it not enough to just restore a bunch of the missing elements from pre-New 52 continuity and then make some good fucking comics?

Are you a ghost writer for DC? Is this the winter super event? I will buy your trades if this is in the works

I don't even follow DC these days and this seems... i dunno. Like out of touch with Watchmen? Like they read cliff notes of it and decided to write a "what if..." story but forgot to call it such and BAM continuity.

Would anyone be able to PM or write a quick super spoilerific rundown of the bizness running up to this and the good Doctors actual role that we know of? Is the idea that at the end of Watchmen the "I might go create some life now..." line actually the origin of the entirety of superheroDCU? Like he flew off to Manhattan knows where and then pooped DC comics universe into existence?

Is that really how they're gonna play this?

Such interesting fuckery...

Read the IGN and Newsarama spoilers. Probably the most detailed synopses we're going to get until the actual issue is out (or leaks).

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/21/dc-universe-rebirth-1-full-spoilers-leak-online

Wally says there’s a war coming with this mysterious being, and back in the Batcave we watch as Batman starts to piece together some clues. Batman sees something shiny in a deep pit inside the Batcave, so he descends to chisel it out of the rock. He pulls out the yellow smiley-face button of the Comedian, complete with a splat of blood. Barry says, “I can feel it. Even now, Barry, we’re being watched.” The story ends.

The beginning of the issue started with a close-up on a watch, but never explained why. In the issue’s epilogue, our view goes from Earth, into space, and settles on Mars. It zooms in on that same watch as it is taken apart in the air, and as we see the clock face, it changes to yellow and black. There’s narration, pulled from the end of Watchmen, the final scene between Dr. Manhattan and Ozymandias, Adrian Veidt:


The issue ends with the iconic “clock to midnight” from Watchmen and the tagline “The Clock Is Ticking Across the DC Universe.”

http://www.newsarama.com/29410-10-t...may-not-want-to-know-before-wed-spoilers.html

This is it. The massive, headscratching, door opening twist that leaves the DCU in a place it’s never been before – in direct conflict with the Watchmen universe.
If that sounds hard to believe, it’s all laid out in the issue. In a bit of meta-commentary, the symbol of the New 52, Pandora, is killed in the same manner as Rorschach, disintegrated while cursing a “cruel, lonely monster.” Later, Batman finds the Comedian’s smiley face button in his Batcave. Finally, DC Universe Rebirth ends with a shot of Dr. Manhattan’s iconic watch coming together on the surface of Mars, along with the Watchmen quote “Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends,” making it clear that Doctor Manhattan is the one who stole those ten years from the DC Universe.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Wouldn't these spoilers mean that the DC Multiverse is basically a snowglobe type situation, or an idea on a page (I think i saw that analogy in a Morrison comic once - go figure)?

The Watchmen stuff...well...is it weird I both like and dislike some of it? Dr Manhattan making the DC Multiverse or the New 52 as a result of the events at the end of Watchmen etc seems like an interesting idea and using it as a sort of...fourth-wall reason for the way a lot of comics went post TDKR/Watchmen makes sense...it also feels slightly...self depricating from DC considering Johns...I wouldn't say has been grim and dark/gritty (to the point where its overly so) but Mark Waid did joke you know its a Geoff Johns comic if someone loses an arm.

But actually bringing the Watchmen back in terms of maybe resurrecting characters feels pointless. Doesn't change jack shit about the Watchmen story though, to me at least, because anything else happens after it (as I understand events) so can just "head-canon" away. I also wouldn't be surprised if DC kinda drop aspects of the idea sharpish like how Pandora was largely forgotten until Trinity War then had a solo comic (iirc) before bugger all happened.


I feel like my barometer for if it would produce good comics etc would really be...well obviously the comics that come after but also the creators enthusiasm. Rucka in particular has done well with Lazarus and his creator owned stuff and even if Wonder Woman doesn't necessarily play in the same arena as the Rebirth revelations (i'm thinking cosmic, typically) but enough creators are excited about what comes next for me to be excited about it, even if at the end of the day I might not care how we get there.

Tbh i'm slightly more wtf'd at JL spoilers (don't know if they count)

Spoiler

Darkseid being reborn by possessing Superwoman's baby and being in the custody of Grail. It's not so much him being reborn, because regardless of "comics" it was gonna happen but it feels a little bit like "Well given Rebirth comes next it feels like Johns invalidates possible significance of his last big arc"

but regardless I suppose at least the people who are anti-Johns or just have greivances with DC atm can see how other books are received and that sort of thing and move from there as far as DC is concerned.

 

[8bit]

Wouldn't these spoilers mean that the DC Multiverse is basically a snowglobe type situation, or an idea on a page (I think i saw that analogy in a Morrison comic once - go figure)?

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Are you a ghost writer for DC? Is this the winter super event? I will buy your trades if this is in the works

I don't even follow DC these days and this seems... i dunno. Like out of touch with Watchmen? Like they read cliff notes of it and decided to write a "what if..." story but forgot to call it such and BAM continuity.

Mayor Mitchell Hundred hacks a TV channel feed and warns of an intern-dimensional invasion, but one of his evil alt-reality versions has already crossed over a year ago and is Trump's VP.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

Mayor Mitchell Hundred hacks a TV channel feed and warns of an intern-dimensional invasion, but one of his evil alt-reality versions has already crossed over a year ago and is Trump's VP.

All the money.

 

[Squire]

Gee golly gosh, it's almost as though they're cynically exploiting Watchmen to drive short-term sales through shock value.

Nah, I'm sure this all comes from a place of deep, profound respect for the source material. Totally.

At this point your criticism isn't any more thoughtful than the subject of it.

You think it's cynical. We got it. Why not give the thing a ghost of a chance? I think that's more valuable than finding a dozen ways to phrase a point that's been made.

Edit: Saw your others posts. Suit yourself, I guess. *shrug*

 

[Sandfox]

Just because he's in his Kid Flash outfit doesn't mean he doesn't have his memories of being The Flash. I don't think Kid Flash era Wally would call Batman "Bruce"

I imagine he'll be in the same spot as Barry memory-wise and we already know that his marriage and kids are gone at least. I'm curious to see if Zolomon comes back now though.

 

[Poodlestrike]

I imagine he'll be in the same spot as Barry memory-wise and we already know that his marriage and kids are gone at least. I'm curious to see if Zolomon comes back now though.

Kinda depends on what they end up doing with him, tbh. Joining the Titans crew is basically guaranteed, but iirc there hasn't been word one about him in the Flash book.

One thing's for sure, he needs a new costume. I'm thinking something... blue.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Waiting for them to fold Preacher into the DCU. Saint of Killers vs. Deathstroke!

 

[Father_Brain]

At this point your criticism isn't any more thoughtful than the subject of it.

You think it's cynical. We got it. Why not give the thing a ghost of a chance? I think that's more valuable than finding a dozen ways to phrase a point that's been made.

Edit: Saw your others posts. Suit yourself, I guess. *shrug*

It's silly to complain about my negative sentiments, given that this is a discussion thread and you can easily add me to your ignore list if you don't like reading my opinions, but for what it's worth, you'd have more of a leg to stand on if you'd made an actual argument as to why putting Watchmen in the DCU is more than a shock-value stunt and deserves the benefit of the doubt. As far as I can tell, this is your sole post on the subject:

I fucking love that Johns is dong this shit and bailing. Goddamn this is nuts.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Okay seriously what is happening with Batmans arm.

 

[Piku_Ringo]

From Gath Ennis' Crossed Geoff Johns Grim-darkest Blackest Night

Jesus!! Well, this is the guy whose basically set to becoming the K. Feige for the DCCU. Can't be any worse than Snyder.

 

[Squire]

It's silly to complain about my negative sentiments, given that this is a discussion thread and you can easily add me to your ignore list if you don't like reading my opinions, but for what it's worth, you'd have more of a leg to stand on if you'd made an actual argument as to why putting Watchmen in the DCU is more than a shock-value stunt and deserves the benefit of the doubt. As far as I can tell, this is your sole post on the subject:

Oh wow, you really put me in my place, huh? /eyeroll.

My edit was to clarify I saw your posts and I see your immovable in your position. I don't intend to argue with, but for clarity's sake I just don't see the harm in actually reading the one-shot in its full context. Giving it the benefit of the doubt costs, what? $3, I guess. Maybe that's something to you. My guess is it's the principle. Fine.

Suit yourself.

 

[XAL]

Should've been Mumma Smoak.

Should have been her and her daughter in a flaming car sent down a hill where the Calculator and Malcom Merlyn are chatting in front of a concrete wall.

They all die in the explosion.

Arrow is just a bad soap opera.

Before it was a soap opera where you could make the case that it at least had good action and some decent character work and great flashbacks.

Not anymore though.

 

[Riposte]

I feel like there's a big difference between early JSA Johns and Justice Society of America/Infinite Crisis Johns.

 

[Father_Brain]

I think the bare minimum for the Manhattan twist being defensible as a purely creative decision would be if Johns was actually willing to own the obvious symbolic implications of using Dr. Manhattan as he's used here: "Yes, we believe Watchmen was a deeply flawed work that's responsible for the grim and gritty superhero comics that have been published since 1986, and we're going to have the heroes of the DC Universe fight it and everything it represents head-on."

It would be a highly controversial opinion, and not one I'd agree with, and crashingly unsubtle in its execution, but it'd at least be consistent with what's on the printed page.

 

[Number_6]

I think the bare minimum for the Manhattan twist being defensible as a purely creative decision would be if Johns was actually willing to own the obvious symbolic implications of using Dr. Manhattan as he's used here: "Yes, we believe Watchmen was a deeply flawed work that's responsible for the grim and gritty superhero comics that have been published since 1986, and we're going to have the heroes of the DC Universe fight it and everything it represents head-on."

It would be a highly controversial opinion, and not one I'd agree with, and crashingly unsubtle in its execution, but it'd at least be consistent with what's on the printed page.

But is Watchmen responsible for the grim and gritty superhero comics published since 1986, or are the writers and editors that so carelessly and shallowly tried to ape Watchmen responsible?

 

[Father_Brain]

But is Watchmen responsible for the grim and gritty superhero comics published since 1986, or are the writers and editors that so carelessly and shallowly tried to ape Watchmen responsible?

Of course it's the latter, and that's what Johns himself has said in attempting to justify this. Which is thoroughly undermined by the use of actual Watchmen characters rather than analogues thereof, or any other characters who could conceivably serve as symbols of post-1986 grim and gritty superhero comics.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Of course it's the latter, and that's what Johns himself has said in attempting to justify this. Which is thoroughly undermined by the use of actual Watchmen characters rather than analogues thereof, or any other characters who could conceivably serve as symbols of post-1986 grim and gritty superhero comics.

See, I don't see the logical trail here. The character isn't being played as a straight villain; he's done terrible things, but not because of malevolence. In the same way that writers and editors trying and failing to emulate and expand on the themes in Watchmen resulted in ludicrously grim, gritty, and cynical (and I feel like the latter is the big one) comics, the experimentation Manhattan undertook with the DCU resulted in ludicrously grim, gritty, and cynical lives for the characters living in it, not out of a desire to make things worse but because of a belief that that that's the way things were supposed to be. He's not standing in for Alan Moore.

At least, that's the impression I got from the reviews and spoiler pages. Idk.

 

[ElNarez]

Hi, I'm a British man from 1983 and I think it's needlessly cynical and craven for Warrior to publish those incredibly violent Marvelman strips, in which Johnny Bates, once a good and kind ally to Marvelman under the name of Kid Marvelman, is now a twisted, evil corrupt villain. But even more disturbing is the incredibly graphic way in which their fight is depicted. Far be it from me to say there should not be violence in comics, but, to do so with characters that have such a lengthy history and legacy of wholesomeness is hitting a new low.

Who does this Alan Moore guy think he is?