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Matt weighs in on PS5 I/O, PS5 vs XSX and what it means for PC.

Vawn

Banned
I’ve seen Vawn Vawn Vawn Vawn straight up call it “weak,” which is ridiculous IMO. PS5’s SSD and I/O are clearly the superior between the two but that doesn’t make the slower solution bad or “weak.” One is just ridiculously fast/engineered.

If people call the PS5's 10.3 weak because Xbox Series X is 12, then the Xbox Series X which is half the speed of PS5, must be weak. That 50% difference is a lot bigger than the difference between 10.3 and 12.
 

TimFL

Member
Seems reasonable enough to me. His point about 3rd-parties not being able to leverage the PS5 I/O is a bit odd though considering Epic seems to have made UE5 scalable in tapping into hardware features of the systems presumed in ways to offload manual coding for such by devs as much as possible.

So would that not mean if devs are using the engine (and vast majority will), they can simply tap into PS5's I/O benefits rather easily? And same for any of XSX's hardware benefits exposed through the engine?
If you design a game around the PS5 I/O that other platforms can‘t match, you limit your audience. If you want to go multiplatform, you have to leave certain aspects of a system „untouched“.

I/O speed is one of these things that‘ll then only help with performance but can‘t enable stuff like the UE5 asset loading showcase when you also target PCs with HDDs, because you aim for game design / feature parity between platforms.

That being said, I don‘t think the XBSX SSD solution will be that far behind that devs have to purposefully ignore the I/O advantages of the PS5.
 
 
Its not too hard to figure out

Ps5 games will stream high quality assets and models will be more detailed.

XSX will have better ray tracing, slight TF advantage.

Some 3rd parties wont bother much, samey

MS first party will push ray tracing and go for frame rate

Sony first party will push high details and more photorealistic

No console is da best, depends what the task is ....and first parties will use features which benefit the hardware...and 3rd parties will make games..
What makes you think SX can't do Photo realistic and high detailed assets as well as Ps5?
 

geordiemp

Member
What makes you think SX can't do Photo realistic and high detailed assets as well as Ps5?

Did you not read the first page, watch UE5 demo and read Tim cernys many tweets.



Ps5 is best at some things, XSX is best at other things. Best start getting used to the differences.

Ps5 games first party will stream insane details, XSX will probably push rays / resolution better - different approaches.

Why do you think XSX will be equal at handling the IO of high quality assets ? Is a TF advantage not enough for you ?
 
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Did you not read the first page, watch UE5 demo and read Tim cernys many tweets.



Ps5 is best at some things, XSX is best at other things. Best start getting used to the differences.

Ps5 games first party will stream insane details, XSX will probably push rays / resolution better - different approaches.

Why do you think XSX will be equal at handling the IO of high quality assets ? Is a TF advantage not enough for you ?
Haha wow. Why did I even bother. I should have known better.
 

geordiemp

Member
Seems reasonable enough to me. His point about 3rd-parties not being able to leverage the PS5 I/O is a bit odd though considering Epic seems to have made UE5 scalable in tapping into hardware features of the systems presumed in ways to offload manual coding for such by devs as much as possible.

So would that not mean if devs are using the engine (and vast majority will), they can simply tap into PS5's I/O benefits rather easily? And same for any of XSX's hardware benefits exposed through the engine?

We agree, both TF and IO will be accessible and choices for devs. I can imagine devs using same engine will prioritise different things.

Maybe some UE5 games will do more ray tracing and look better on XSX. Its all up in the air.

Maybe some devs will use more assets on Ps5 and add ray tracing on XSX but not ps5 - who knows.

Should be fun, but its no one way street.
 

geordiemp

Member
Haha wow. Why did I even bother. I should have known better.

Well , I could ask you why do you think XSX will have a resolution and Ray tracing advantage.

You reply the obvious (like I did).

And i say why did i even bother, should of known better.

Your point ?
 
I see he ignored the most important question of all, which would clear up a lot of FUD.

He can't answer that question unless he's deep in AAA development for both next gen consoles and he probably wouldn't want to if he was. He's a dev that has access to devkits/next gen games or works with those that do I believe.

I've never seen so many devs excited about a new piece of hardware like the PS5, I just want to fucking see the games now!
 

killatopak

Gold Member
I think Sony has a distinct advantage if they ever do a mid gen refresh again.

A PS5 Pro would reasonably try to have better Raytracing and higher TFs to compensate.

A mid gen refresh of the Series X on the other hand is stuck using the 2.4GB/s SSD because it needs to support their proprietary expansion card. Unless they completely make a new one and drop compatibility, the mid gen refresh would just add more TF and more efficient Raytracing hardware. Correct me if I’m wrong though.
 
If you design a game around the PS5 I/O that other platforms can‘t match, you limit your audience. If you want to go multiplatform, you have to leave certain aspects of a system „untouched“.

I/O speed is one of these things that‘ll then only help with performance but can‘t enable stuff like the UE5 asset loading showcase when you also target PCs with HDDs, because you aim for game design / feature parity between platforms.

That being said, I don‘t think the XBSX SSD solution will be that far behind that devs have to purposefully ignore the I/O advantages of the PS5.

Right, all of this I'm aware of. I'm just curious to what limits UE5 will try pushing for exposing and "automating" access to expose I/O feature sets of the PS5 (or equivalent feature sets of the XSX in other areas) to the point where the cost in labor/man-hours for the developer to design around them isn't outweighed by the benefits the game will have for having targeted them. The costs of benefits in utilizing those features that are strengths to the plaform would outweigh the costs in the time and relative difficulty in accessing them thanks to the engine being mature/advanced enough to provide as much of that as possible to developers on its own end.

Of course, devs would still have to create the assets and code the applications themselves, but that would be the case no matter what. The reason I think this will be more the possibility with engines like UE5 is because, for starters, companies like Epic simply have the financial and technical means to do so. Additionally, it'd be an overall net benefit for 3rd-parties, and they could have sub-teams on multi-platform projects to optimize certain exposed feature sets of a target platform. I would also expect MS and Sony to be cooperative with engine developers on this end especially if 1st-parties are using those engines, and there are also efficiency gains in programming techniques and algorithms that would benefit from engines that could handle much of that backend on their own while still providing deeper access for developers who may require it here or there.

That's what I'm seeing as being possible, anyway. Traditionally this was the domain of proprietary in-house 1st-party engines and in some aspects it will remain that way particularly as new uses for the hardware come along throughout the generation and engines get revamped to support them. But given how architecturally similar these consoles will be to PCs this gen (even more than PS4 and XBO were), I don't see it being an impossibility.

EDIT: Also this has nothing to do in terms of an assessment on XSX's SSD I/O. Trust me, I'm one of the ones who discusses it quite favorably. There's aspects to it I see as helping it "punch above its weight" beyond whatever the paper specs imply.

I'm just saying that for 3rd-party engines like UE5 to expose and automate ease-of-use access to inherent feature set advantages of both PS5 and XSX would be a net benefit across the board, regardless of where those chips may fall.

But, PS5s GPU is clocked 400 Mhz higher. And also has a higher pixel fillrate compared to XSX GPU.

Pixel fillrate is only one facet of many aspects to GPU architecture that are of importance. Most other features in regards to GPUs of similar architectures benefit more from more hardware on the GPU side (such as more CUs) versus faster amounts of less hardware on smaller GPUs.

Quite a lot of benchmarks more or less prove this.
 
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Bryank75

Banned
I think Sony has a distinct advantage if they ever do a mid gen refresh again.

A PS5 Pro would reasonably try to have better Raytracing and higher TFs to compensate.

A mid gen refresh of the Series X on the other hand is stuck using the 2.4GB/s SSD because it needs to support their proprietary expansion card. Unless they completely make a new one and drop compatibility, the mid gen refresh would just add more TF and more efficient Raytracing hardware. Correct me if I’m wrong though.
That's what I am counting on, I am in on day 1 but I will also upgrade if they do the refresh.
 
If you design a game around the PS5 I/O that other platforms can‘t match, you limit your audience. If you want to go multiplatform, you have to leave certain aspects of a system „untouched“.

I/O speed is one of these things that‘ll then only help with performance but can‘t enable stuff like the UE5 asset loading showcase when you also target PCs with HDDs, because you aim for game design / feature parity between platforms.

That being said, I don‘t think the XBSX SSD solution will be that far behind that devs have to purposefully ignore the I/O advantages of the PS5.

Can anyone please expound on what difference the speed makes? An example will do.

I cant think of a real world case where the speed of SSD I/O to Ram allows you to do something more interesting than either having more ram or more bandwidth to the GPU.
 

SleepDoctor

Banned
All that text and he pretty much said nothing but "fast fast fast" and also tried to sound "neutral". Don't know who he is but it probably doesn't matter. Seeing as he'd of signed an NDA if he had access to any or both devkits.

Pretty much the same as the Scorn and Quantum Error devs.
 

Quantum253

Member
This article is interesting (mostly about PC), but whether Direct Storage can be used on Xbsex

"The latter component is particularly relevant because Microsoft already confirmed plans to bring it to Windows PC, too. According to Microsoft, DirectStorage can significantly reduce CPU overhead for I/O operations (such as those happening in the background to load the next parts of the world) from several cores to a small fraction of a single core. Needless to say, this could severely diminish the PC I/O issues mentioned above by Tim Sweeney."

Source: https://wccftech.com/tim-sweeney-ex...-architecture-is-way-more-efficient-than-pcs/
 
I think Sony has a distinct advantage if they ever do a mid gen refresh again.

A PS5 Pro would reasonably try to have better Raytracing and higher TFs to compensate.

A mid gen refresh of the Series X on the other hand is stuck using the 2.4GB/s SSD because it needs to support their proprietary expansion card. Unless they completely make a new one and drop compatibility, the mid gen refresh would just add more TF and more efficient Raytracing hardware. Correct me if I’m wrong though.

Why? You still maintain PCIE protocol... Remember the top end on 4 lane PCIE 4 is between 8-10 GBPs raw (pcie 4 has a 2.0-2.5 Gbps per lane top end). That plus XVA would be very excellent.

The proprietaryness is in the form factor.. but it still meets all of the Gen 4 logical and electrical requirements.
 
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xool

Member
Why is it so difficult for some to admit Sony did a fantastic job with the ssd subsystem?

It isn't - people are making up straw men to fight against. Find an example of someone who refuses to accept the PS5 SSD isn't twice as fast as the SeriesX on this board - clue there isn't one. Maybe you can go and interview some people in a mental institution.

For gods sake stop making these straw men, The "Next-Gen" thread has been completely ruined by this.
 
Its not too hard to figure out

Ps5 games will stream high quality assets and models will be more detailed.

XSX will have better ray tracing, slight TF advantage.

Some 3rd parties wont bother much, samey

MS first party will push ray tracing and go for frame rate

Sony first party will push high details and more photorealistic

No console is da best, depends what the task is ....and first parties will use features which benefit the hardware...and 3rd parties will make games..

All opinion IMO
Photorealism needs many things to be achieved and assets quality isn't the most important of them. Lighting and textures are far more important in this case. At some point, some of your assets don't benefit from too many polygons. Ray tracing and high quality textures will do the trick. Ofc some assets will benefit from more polygons, but some details are hard to see if your lighting system is lacking. That Unreal 5 demo shined mainly because of the lighting and texture quality. Imo both will have close to reality renders but XSX is better equipped to get closer to photorealism.
 

Quantum253

Member
Oh here:
"DirectStorage – DirectStorage is an all new I/O system designed specifically for gaming to unleash the full performance of the SSD and hardware decompression. It is one of the components that comprise the Xbox Velocity Architecture. Modern games perform asset streaming in the background to continuously load the next parts of the world while you play, and DirectStorage can reduce the CPU overhead for these I/O operations from multiple cores to taking just a small fraction of a single core; thereby freeing considerable CPU power for the game to spend on areas like better physics or more NPCs in a scene. This newest member of the DirectX family is being introduced with Xbox Series X and we plan to bring it to Windows as well."

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/03/16/xbox-series-x-glossary/
 

Quantum253

Member
Maybe Microsoft uses a software based solution to make up for the lack computational I/O throughput and Sony used a solution to make up for the Tflop difference? I think when these machines are side by side, it's going to take a lot to really notice a significant difference.
 
Why? You still maintain PCIE protocol... Remember the top end on 4 lane PCIE 4 is between 8-10 GBPs raw (pcie 4 has a 2.0-2.5 Gbps per lane top end). That plus XVA would be very excellent.

It's exactly 7.876 GB/s after accounting for encoding overhead from 128b/130b. Comparatively out of the 1 GB/s a single PCIe 3.0 lane provided the actual figure minus raw overhead was about 985 MB/s due to 8b/10b encoding.

AFAIK PCIe hasn't undergone steppings like, say, USB or NVMe. So yeah they would still be limited by the PCIe 4.0 spec regardless how they decided to upgrade the SSDs in a mid-gen refresh. That goes to both PS5 and XSX. But NVMe, as just mentioned, can have stepping revisions that improve the amount of PCIe links a single interface supports.

Theoretically speaking, Microsoft could just use that new stepping if available and NVMe (as well as PCIe) steppings are backwards-compatible with their previous versions handled automatically through hardware, so nothing prevents MS from increasing to a faster-speed SSD in a mid-gen refresh while still maintaining compatibility with XSX SSD and expansion card.

Like the SNES/Mega Drive days... SNES more powerful. Mega Drive faster... Or am I completely wrong on that?

A very simplified but pretty good way to think of them as ;)
 
On topic, sounds like the same things we’ve been hearing for a while now. Each system good at most things, some better than the other, but these advantages will only really play out primarily on each systems 1st party.
 

jimbojim

Banned
Maybe Microsoft uses a software based solution to make up for the lack computational I/O throughput and Sony used a solution to make up for the Tflop difference? I think when these machines are side by side, it's going to take a lot to really notice a significant difference.

They do. And also they use 1/10 of one Zem core.
 

Quantum253

Member
I'm all for fast load times. M.2 NVMe isn't that far off from ssds (not as far from platter based drives to solid state). Knowing the speeds will be faster on both systems than this has me stoked.
 

icerock

Member
This thread is so civil compared to the one over at REE. It's always good to see actual devs write and explain this stuff.

Matt said:
DirectStorage is great for what it is, but yeah, I expect brute force speed to be the biggest factor here.

The SX more conventional than the PS5, and therefore less novel to talk about. It’s still a stronger system in many ways.

I wish he would of gave examples

It's pretty obvious Series X has raw compute advantage and I expect that to translate to higher res/better frames/better RT. I'm really keen to see the game Initiative have been working on, it's rumored to be Perfect Dark and an even earlier rumor hinted it being an AAAA game. Hopefully eyeballs will melt!

Seems reasonable enough to me. His point about 3rd-parties not being able to leverage the PS5 I/O is a bit odd though considering Epic seems to have made UE5 scalable in tapping into hardware features of the systems presumed in ways to offload manual coding for such by devs as much as possible.

So would that not mean if devs are using the engine (and vast majority will), they can simply tap into PS5's I/O benefits rather easily? And same for any of XSX's hardware benefits exposed through the engine?

My interpretation of his posts is that Sony have built a cutting-edge tech, but ultimately it's up to the devs to cater to that tech. Epic with UE5 have (to some extent) tried to leverage that, I think their VP of Engineering mentioned something along the lines of rewriting their 'core I/O sub systems' keeping PS5 in mind. But, 3rd party devs using Unity/Frostbite etc. may not necessarily re-work their engine to leverage PS5 I/O.
 
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