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[HStallion]

Growing up with Sinterklaas or participating in Sinterklaas doesn't automatically make racist little children or parents. It is a long outdated tradition and something definitely needs to change, but as a kid, and also as a parent it's about the presents for kids. That doesn't excuse the unwillingness to adapt to a growing multicultural society.

This country is unfortunately struggling with the same movement that got Trump elected though, and we have a politician with the same ideologies.

Sorry didn't mean to call racially insensitive parents who just want to have a good old racially insensitive time, racists. My bad.

 

[Merino]

You can call the police and ask, I'm not going to explain operational details here.

Criticism is fine and often justified. But I reject the suggestion that my colleagues are enemies of democracy and free expression.

I'm out of the thread.

Not saying every police officer and every police district is the same.

However:

Responses against peaceful and nonviolent protests

 

[dglavimans]

I wonder how many times you have had conversations about this issue with non-white people in order to get a wider perspective than that of your own race.

Once again, too call it a child festivity and imply that it is thus inherently free from racism is a logical fallacy. I really don't understand how you could ever imply that this tradition has nothing to do with white and black and I truly advise you to educate yourself further in this.

Had some discussion on my work if you want to know.

Just for me personal I dont link it with white and black and I dont want to educate it for myself because it is a frigging child festivity where I got sick three days before because I couldnt get my excitement in place for it as a kid.

It just fits this day and age that we take everything personal. It isnt my meaning to sound racist in here and I dont want to sound like someone who has anything against sinterklaas. I feel everyone should be safe and feeling fine in this country and have every opportunity they work for no matter if your are white black male female straight gay. For me every human is a human and is defined not by the above but by who they are.

I think we have bigger problems than Sinterklaas we should focus on. I think this 'forced' want to change this festivity isnt going to get us anywhere.

 

[Negaiido]

Isn't the real reason why Dutch people don't want it to be changed because every immigrant in this country wants them to respect their culture for example Moslims with Hallal.
Now people want to take away a Dutch tradition because they have other thoughts about it.
Dutch people have thoughts about other peoples cultures as well but those won't get prohibited.

 

[Merino]

Why exactly did a tradition like that even start ( I can't wiki anything it keeps giving me pages I can't read). Yeah it's 1800 whatever and animal rights barely exist but why an eel ? Also rioting over not being able to continue to torment innocent fish is just sad.

On topic the picture of both Sinterklaas shaking hands is at least mildly encouraging.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwelspel

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingoproer

https://www.historischnieuwsblad.nl/nl/artikel/29193/tegen-het-palingtrekken-en-katknuppelen.html

http://www.isgeschiedenis.nl/toen/oktober/het_palingoproer_van_1886/

http://www.vice.com/nl/read/dierenmishandeling-is-leuk-of-tenminste-dat-vonden-mensen-vroeger

 

[Calm waterfall]

In other news, a black Sinterklaas, who was trying to bridge the divide by offering an second alternative to the white master figure of Sinterklaas was also refused entry into the city that is hosting the televised parade this year

WTF! He should have been allowed to do it.

 

[JDB]

Isn't the real reason why Dutch people don't want it to be changed because every immigrant in this country wants them to respect their culture for example Moslims with Hallal.
Now people want to take away a Dutch tradition because they have other thoughts about it.
Dutch people have thoughts about other peoples cultures as well but those won't be prohibited.

If by 'taking away a Dutch tradition' you mean painting a dude a bit less like blackface, then sure.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Not saying every police officer and every police district is the same.

However:

* images *


Responses against peaceful and nonviolent protests

These are not from this year. The first images you post were bullshit arrests I think. The second was a group refusing to move and not letting through other people, so police pushed them away. The other is from 2 years ago where protesters refused to stick to designated areas.

Mistakes have been made with this for sure, but the examples above are not what is happening right now.

Coming from someone who also thinks the classic Zwarte Piet should disappear here.

 

[Merino]

The other is from 2 years ago where protesters refused to stick to designated areas.

I think that harshly restricting people to designated area's as well as banning protests across an entire city is a way to force silence on to people.

 

[13ruce]

Just add some new colored petes and call it a day. Keeping them colored is better otherwise you know whoever is in the costume wich kinda ruins it for kids.

For example yellow silver gold etc. Petes, that way you can keep black pete imo. If they all have different colors then whats to complain about.

 

[dglavimans]

And let me repeat myself. Racist parents want to keep a racist tradition that appeals to them and then can use to pass down to their children whom they hope follow in their footsteps. Its not rocket science and you not seeing the offense in it doesn't mean its not offensive.

Me and my parents arent racist though. I agree with your last sentence but like I said before I think this is something of the last few years and everything and everyone is offended in this day and age.

It's not just about the children, the issue is larger than most people are willing to realize. If you haven't already I recommend you watch the documentary Zwart Als Roet.

For the people who don't speak Dutch, at 12:16 in the video, they walk around in Zwarte Piet outfits in a park in London. The reactions of the people there are very telling.

Thanks will see it this evening.

 

[NewDust]

WTF! He should have been allowed to do it.

One could argue it was a protest, and protests were only allowed in designated zones and police had to be informed. That goes for both sides of the debate. I can't fault the police officers here. Nor can I fault the "protester". I actually wished the debate had more of these good spirited protesters that can contribute to the discussion without aggression. That would be way more constructive than the polarization of the last few years.

 

[Iriscomeback]

This whole discussion is a perfect example of us not listening to each other anymore.

And that will lead us to putting our own Donald Trump in the government next year.

This country is going to shit.

 

[HStallion]

Me and my parents arent racist though. I agree with your last sentence but like I said before I think this is something of the last few years and everything and everyone is offended in this day and age.


Thanks will see it this evening.

You don't have to desire lynching black folks to be racist. You can just hold ignorant insensitive views that are harmful to the minority community especially when held by a large enough group of people. No you aren't a monster but you could do with some self reflection on why its so important to keep a dude in black face around for children's festivities.

 

[bishoptl]

There actually were rainbow-coloured peets a year or two ago, but that was too much change at once and completely silly. I think the new trend of them being white and having charcoal smears on their face instead of being pure blackface is a step in the right direction. It fits with the idea of them crawling through the chimneys.



Growing up with Sinterklaas or participating in Sinterklaas doesn't automatically make racist little children or parents. It is a long outdated tradition and something definitely needs to change, but as a kid, and also as a parent it's about the presents for kids. That doesn't excuse the unwillingness to adapt to a growing multicultural society.

This country is unfortunately struggling with the same movement that got Trump elected though, and we have a politician with the same ideologies. The majority of the people that do not want Sinterklaas to change seem to be the 50+ people (from my personal experience, I could be wrong), the newer generations do seem to agree that something needs to change. Unfortunately, as with every country, the older established generations vastly outnumber the newer generations.

The kids? No. The parents? Abso-fucking-lutely.

 

[dglavimans]

You don't have to desire lynching black folks to be racist.

So what does make me a racist in this regard according to you?

 

[Joni]

I think that harshly restricting people to designated area's as well as banning protests across an entire city is a way to force silence on to people.

Protests are always regulated like this, especially when you're trying to keep two conflicting protests away from thousands of children.

 

[His Majesty]

Just add some new colored petes and call it a day. Keeping them colored is better otherwise you know whoever is in the costume wich kinda ruins it for kids.

For example yellow silver gold etc. Petes, that way you can keep black pete imo. If they all have different colors then whats to complain about.

In Flanders everyone (well, the groups organising the events and media) just decided to make them black from soot. So no more bright red lips etc. For me that's a good compromise: no more racist caricature and minimal changes to a traditional holiday.

 

[Merino]

These are not from this year. The first images you post were bullshit arrests I think. The second was a group refusing to move and not letting through other people, so police pushed them away. The other is from 2 years ago where protesters refused to stick to designated areas.

Mistakes have been made with this for sure, but the examples above are not what is happening right now.

Coming from someone who also thinks the classic Zwarte Piet should disappear here.

Got another one where a police officer takes a protest sign away with force (from last year):

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/669..._treedt_op_tegen_pieten_protest_in_weesp.html

These are not isolated incidents

 

[bishoptl]

So what does make me a racist in this regard according to you?

Me and my parents arent racist though. I agree with your last sentence but like I said before I think this is something of the last few years and everything and everyone is offended in this day and age.

Yep. Enjoy the tag in good health.

 

[Fallout-NL]

So what does make me a racist in this regard according to you?

Your failure to understand why.

 

[roytheone]

In Flanders everyone (well, the groups organising the events and media) just decided to make them black from soot. So no more bright red lips etc. For me that's a good compromise: no more racist caricature and minimal changes to a traditional holiday.

This is a great solution for country wide events, but for more local stuff, which always uses local people to act the role of piet, having "soot piet" will make them too easy to be recognized by the kids, so it wouldn't work for those kind of celebrations.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I think that harshly restricting people to designated area's as well as banning protests across an entire city is a way to force silence on to people.

This is normal procedure though with larger protests. Otherwise things can get easily out of control, since you have two groups against each other and a ton of families in between.

It's not perfect, but I understand the authorities wanting to manage this, because we don't want any panic at large events and people getting hurt.

 

[itsgreen]

Not saying every police officer and every police district is the same.

However:

Responses against peaceful and nonviolent protests

Half those pictures are way old, police have for some time now, new uniforms... so at least those aren't from today.

Also, bishop, can you remove the stuff about protesters weren't allowed in the OP. That simply isn't true.

 

[Merino]

This is normal procedure though with larger protests. Otherwise things can get easily out of control, since you have two groups against each other and a ton of families in between.

It's not perfect, but I understand the authorities wanting to manage this, because we don't want any panic at large events and people getting hurt.

You are telling me a city as big as Rotterdam is not big enough to accommodate 100 protesters?

 

[xZoneHunter]

Holiday can be celebrated perfectly with a white piet. But calling people who are pro-zwarte piet racists is kinda pushing it.

In the end, kids don't care about these things and this holiday is for them.

 

[itsgreen]

You are telling me a city as big as Rotterdam is not big enough to accommodate 100 protesters?

In general you have to get a permit to protest.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Just paint him neon blue or something.

Racist against Methemoglobinemiacs.

 

[NewDust]

This is a great solution for country wide events, but for more local stuff, which always uses local people to act the role of piet, having "soot piet" will make them too easy to be recognized by the kids, so it wouldn't work for those kind of celebrations.

In the end, does it matter that kids recognize them? We have "help Sinterklazen", and now help Pieten" people who help deliver the gifts to kids.

Kids don't really care, as long as they get gifts and sweets. It easy to make up a justification that kids will belief.

 

[Merino]

Half those pictures are way old, police have for some time now, new uniforms... so at least those aren't from today.

Also, bishop, can you remove the stuff about protesters weren't allowed in the OP. That simply isn't true.

This is what started it all in 2011.

Are all those officers still employed or are they fired? What would the color of the uniform matter if those same people are still out there possibly arresting peaceful protesters in the name of keeping a children's event clean of political dissent.

 

[Joni]

You are telling me a city as big as Rotterdam is not big enough to accommodate 100 protesters?

More than enough. Which is why there were multiple protests at specific location, all covered quite well, because that is how all these images turn up.
This is standard procedure. Hell, I remember a Pokémon GO event that required police approval. Even things like marches for peace require permits.

 

[Merino]

In general you have to get a permit to protest.

I disagree with that also.

But I didn't see students getting this actively stopped and arrested when they protested without permits and took over public institutions in Amsterdam.

 

[bishoptl]

Half those pictures are way old, police have for some time now, new uniforms... so at least those aren't from today.

Also, bishop, can you remove the stuff about protesters weren't allowed in the OP. That simply isn't true.

OP says protests were restricted. That is 100% accurate.

 

[itsgreen]

This is what started it all in 2011.

Are all those officers still employed or are they fired? What would the color of the uniform matter if those same people are still out there possibly arresting peaceful protesters in the name of keeping a children's event clean of political dissent.

What if, what if, what if... what if my mother had a penis. Did they arrest them today? And on what grounds?

Announce your protest, where you want to do it, get a permit. Not that difficult. Hardly any protests have ever been denied. Be it ultra-right, ultra-left, ultra-anything.

OP says protests were restricted. That is 100% accurate.

Restricted ANY form of protest? That is simply not true. They restricted the unnannounced ones. There were demonstrations against Zwarte Piet.

 

[Beefy]

Holiday can be celebrated perfectly with a white piet. But calling people who are pro-zwarte piet racists is kinda pushing it.

In the end, kids don't care about these things and this holiday is for them.

But that is exactly what they are?

 

[MistakenMobius]

In general you have to get a permit to protest.

That's like demonstration 1010 in Europe.

 

[roytheone]

Holiday can be celebrated perfectly with a white piet. But calling people who are pro-zwarte piet racists is kinda pushing it.

In the end, kids don't care about these things and this holiday is for them.

I think the thing is, the word "racist" is very, VERY broad.

Is zwarte piet racist? Probably yeah.
Is refusing to serve black people racist? Definitely
Is lynching black people racist? Of course.

While all these things are "racist", they are still severely different degrees of racism. The word "racism" and "racist" can mean so many things with wildly different degrees of severity. I doubt someone calling pro zwarte piet people "racist" mean they are just as bad as racists that actually discriminate against black people, but the same word is used for both of them.

 

[itsgreen]

I disagree with that also.

But I didn't see students getting this actively stopped and arrested when they protested without permits and took over public institutions in Amsterdam.

Because the universities didn't press charges. (If I recall).

 

[bishoptl]

Restricted ANY form of protest? That is simply not true. They restricted the unnannounced ones. There were demonstrations against Zwarte Piet.

Show me where it says that in the OP.

I think the thing is, the word "racist" is very, VERY broad.

Is zwarte piet racist? Probably yeah.
Is refusing to serve black people racist? Definitely
Is lynching black people racist? Of course.

While all these things are "racist", they are still severely different degrees of racism. The word "racism" and "racist" can mean so many things with wildly different degrees of severity. I doubt someone calling pro zwarte piet people "racist" mean they are just as bad as racists that actually discriminate against black people, but the same word is used for both of them.

You are very concerned about the granularity of our definitions.

 

[joe2187]

Holiday can be celebrated perfectly with a white piet. But calling people who are pro-zwarte piet racists is kinda pushing it.

In the end, kids don't care about these things and this holiday is for them.

Kids grow up

and teach their children the same thing

and then the cycle repeats

then nobody learns from ignorance.

 

[itsgreen]

Show me where it says that in the OP.

Sure.

The Netherlands meanwhile has restricted any form of protests today and the action group that has been fighting the tradition since 2011 got arrested as police is on a major crackdown of any dissenting opinions around the celebratory blackface parades today.

 

[Audioboxer]

Show me where it says that in the OP.

I read it wrong as well

The Netherlands meanwhile has restricted any form of protests today and the action group that has been fighting the tradition since 2011 got arrested as police is on a major crackdown of any dissenting opinions around the celebratory blackface parades today.

It makes it sound like no protests were allowed. Posters above who can either read Dutch or live in Holland are saying protests were allowed as long as they adhered to something like what Closing Door said to me

It's also bullshit. Protests were allowed in the designated zones. You just couldn't randomly go walking around with your protest groups since that would be a safety issue. That action group had refused to tell the authorities they were going to protest and didn't want to stick to the protest zones along the route of the event.

This is the way it is with pretty much any major protest and has been handled this way for a variety of issues.

Like me others might just be reading it wrong. I thought you couldn't protest at all and would be arrested which in itself is pretty much an act of human rights abuse. Protest is a part of democracy.

Either way it's a small part of the overall issue which is black face still on display in Holland.

 

[Always-honest]

It's getting better though. Slowly but surely. I have seen much more colorful Petes this year and certain companies have abandoned Black Pete.

It will be a slow process but it's unstoppable.

 

[Merino]

Like me others might just be reading it wrong. I thought you couldn't protest at all and would be arrested which in itself is pretty much an act of human rights abuse. Protest is a part of democracy.

You can be arrested for protesting in Rotterdam today as an emergency order was issued

 

[ClosingADoor]

You are telling me a city as big as Rotterdam is not big enough to accommodate 100 protesters?

Depends on what they are planning. Police had reason to believe there would be trouble, and the mayor took action. I don't think Aboutaleb is one to do that without at least a good reason.

Of course the city is big enough, and there were zones to protest at the actual event. I think that is the right way for the police to handle it for now until the organisers of the event finally make the necessary changes.

 

[itsgreen]

You can be arrested for protesting in Rotterdam today as an emergency order was issued

Because they feared there were going to be unannounced protests. And that could lead to public safety issues.

 

[Beefy]

Sure.

Restricted

limited in extent, number, scope, or action.

 

[Audioboxer]

You can be arrested for protesting in Rotterdam today as an emergency order was issued

Any protest? Well yeah, that is an issue then. Government has to accommodate protest.

 

[itsgreen]

Restricted

limited in extent, number, scope, or action.

Any.

All everything...

There were some common sense restrictions... like: you can't show up everywhere unannounced and start a protest..

 

[Blue Ninja]

I'm glad Belgium decided to move in the other direction. There's a lot of people moaning about "our traditions", but traditions change. I'm just afraid stuff like this is going to fuel people flocking to the right in the next election.

I just watched part of Sinterklaas' arrival ceremony here in Antwerp, and none of the Petes were black. Seeing them just stained with soot, like the story always said they were, felt a lot better.